Jeremiah could you please post the standings for the devotional??

Hi All,

The Sunday Devotional Play-offs will begin on Sunday, November 4th, 2007 at 10 am. The overall points champion for both Open and Am divisions will be decided at the end of the 3 week playoffs. Its not to late to sign up - Only players who have or will pay the $10 entry fee for the Sunday Devotional League are eligible to win money & prizes. Below is the current list of league members who have paid the entry fee.

Keith Clark
Red Whittington
Jeremiah Libby
Matt Miao
Michael Speaker
Alex fore
Dave Kuhrt
Sid Olcott
Jerry Gotcher
Dave Olcott

Current Standings (Not all inclusive)

Current Sunday Devotional Points Standings (Open)
First Name Last Name Top 15 Week total
Keith Clark 397
Sid Olcott 357
Jeremiah Libby 304
Red Whittington 226
Matt Miao 221
Chris Deitzel 219
Jerry Gotcher 211
Dave Olcott 152
J Gary Dropcho 108
Alex Fore 107
Josh Arnette 102
Robin White 82
Greg Meitus 66
Curtis Spence 63
Scott Hientzelman 51
Larry Gioia 48
Tim Wright 47
Dave Kuhrt 36

First Name Last Name Top 15 Week total
Mike Hoeg 72
Marcus Dropcho 60
Dave Kuhrt 45
Chris Hoeg 43
Larry Gioia 40
Matt Mcmillian 32

Play-off Schedule and Format (All at Knob Hill)

Sunday November 4th - 9:30-9:45 registration. 10 am Start - Handicap doubles All C-Pin Positions
Sunday November 11th - 9:30-9:45 registration. 10 am Start - Singles All C-Pin Positions
Sunday November 18th - 9:30-9:45 registration. 10 am Start - Singles Mixed Pin Positions

Hope to see you all out there!!!

Sorry I am unsure how to get the correct table format for the standings.

Please note: Top 15 point finishes will be included in the overall points standings. This WILL include the play-off finishes so everyone is still in the hunt.

Play-off Set-up:

Every week every player who attends the event will pay a $5 entry fee for the final payout. The commbined overall score of your three rounds will decide how you finish at the end of the 3rd week. NO PAY-OUTS will be awarded after week 1 and 2 but will be included in the final pay-out. We will pay out scratch and handicap top finishers of each division. If you place in the cash in your division for scratch score than you are ineligible for the handicap pay-out. All players without a handicap (less then 5 events) will only be eligible for the scratch pay-out.

Projected payouts are as follows (Not Definite but reasonably estimated)):

OPEN Scratch
1st Place $135
2nd Place $97
3rd Place $39

Open Handicap
1st Place $58
2nd Place $39
3rd Place $19

AM Scratch
1st Place $52
2nd Place $37
3rd Place $15

AM Handicap
1st Place $22
2nd Place $15
3rd Place $7

Players meeting will begin at 9:45 am on Sunday November 4th, 2007 to discuss set-up.

Thanks in Advance,

Best Regards

THANKS!!!

Don't forget about the Sunday Devotional Championship Series Play-offs this weekend. Details are above.

Hey Jibby.....two more weeks of playoffs at Knob Hill...and I believe they are both singles/stroke play rounds.
Any chance we'll play the blue tees again? :D

Jerry,

I got your message and got to thinking. I agree with you. This actually is good for me cause I won't have to move baskets. We will play one single round from the blue's and the last week a single round from the white's!

Cool any objections?

Here are the current Play-off standings after week 2. I will see you all out on the course this Sunday for the Finale.

Player Final Scratch Score Strokes Behind Leader
Sid Olcott 121 -
Jerry Gotcher 124 3
Jeremiah Libby 127 6
Chris Deitzel 127 6
KB Clark 129 8
Matt Miao 130 9
Carl Vesch 133 12
Alex Fore 134 13
Red Whittington 185 64
Dave Olcott 188 67
Josh Arnette 200 79

AM
Dave Kuhrt 122 -
Matt Mcmillan 135 (13)

Here are the current Point Standings heading into the final week of the play-offs.

First Name Last Name Top 15 Week total
Keith Clark 424
Sid Olcott 419
Jeremiah Libby 355
Chris Deitzel 280
Jerry Gotcher 270
Matt Miao 262
Red Whittington 256
Dave Olcott 162
Alex Fore 135
J Gary Dropcho 108
Josh Arnette 105
Robin White 82
Greg Meitus 66
Curtis Spence 63
Scott Hientzelman 51
Larry Gioia 48
Tim Wright 47
Dave Kuhrt 36
Rob Johnson 34
Paul Ashmore 29
Carl Vesch 28
Mike Hoeg 25
Mike Speaker 22
Rich Givens 13
Ross P 3
Scott McCintyre 1


First Name Last Name Top 15 Week total
Dave Kuhrt 107
Matt Mcmillian 83
Mike Hoeg 72
Marcus Dropcho 60
Chris Hoeg 43
Larry Gioia 40
Phil Hiedenried 11
Mack Vignolini 9
JJ Jamriska 8
Scott C 7
Tom Ewing 7
Kurt Poole 6
Bobby Mac 5
Ben Houlihan 4
Chris Gotrin 3
Alanna Houck 3
Rex 2
Derrick Brack 2
Corey Spence 2
Francis 1
Dan Wallen 0

Wow.....that was a great payout at Knob Hill yesterday! Those of you who "thought" about coming out, but didn't......you missed out.

Thanks, Libby.....lots of fun!

.....and congrats to Sid for winning the overall! :D

paid out almost $500!!! I'm pretty happy to walk away with $70 for only showing up to 9 devotionals this year!!

Final Payout was $546 for Open and $134 for Ams's. What a great three weeks. Congrats to Sid and Jerry. I think the Sunday Devotional Championship series did what it was designed to do. November Disc golf has never been so action packed. I hope the Pittsburgh Flying Disc Society truly maintains a monthly points series to increase moments like the last three weeks.

November Disc golf has never been so action packed.



:D

Fine Jerry, never a November that has been this exciting and action packed for me. Enjoy your turkey, don't get the bird flu.

Hey all,

I have been asked to devise a set-up for the Pittsburgh Monthly Points Series. I am taking suggestions. Topics of discussion include

Format, # of weeks, Monthly courses included, payout, entry fee, PDGA Sanctioned final D-Tier three week event at Knob Moraine and Deer Lakes, and any other ideas.

I think that the monthly points series should start at the first event in January, and include Knob Hill, Moraine, and Deer Lakes. I think that each person should get only 1 point for the people that they beat. So if I beat 7 people I get 7 points. 1/2 point for people you tie.

I need to do some more thinkin about this. I have a few ideas.

I like the idea of using all three courses. That way people like me who have an 1 1/2 hr drive to Knob can still compete in the overall yearly series by playing DL and Moraine.

Format - Singles, with maybe a week a month over a four month span that doubles is played (i.e. May doubles week is DL, June doubles week is Moraine, July doubles is Knob, August doubles is IUP)
# of weeks - full calendar year
courses played - DLDGC, Moraine, Knob, CollegeLodge
entry fee - $10
payout - I have alot of ideas, not sure what I personally think is best as of yet

D Tier for finale - why not?!?

Points - Im with the big baby g-zus...

o, and at the end of the series prizes for things like "most weeks played", "most eagles", "most baskets hit without making putts" (im winning this one!!!), you see where I am going with this... something more than just "youre the big winner" to keep it fun and everyone involved.

btw, I love this new idea for a points series. Lets keep the ideas coming and make this upcoming year a Pittsburgh DG'ers dream!

No doubles for the monthlies series.

So this is going to still be the $10 monthly....how are we going to raise any money for the end of the year?? Figuring we already give out $2 a week in other fees. I'm gonna think about this hard for the next few days.

I think that as always with the devotional, the monthly should reward those who come to the most events at the end of the year. I don't think we really need a playoff at the end of the year like we did with the devotional.

As for the D-tier...how about 1 event for each month becomes a d-tier. rotating courses throughout the year. that could give us 12 D-tier events, 4 at each course!!! That would be so sweet. I think we should pay the $10 + the PDGA entry fee. Keeping the $10 for just the monthly event payout? Lets think this through and make the points series awesome. And I think that we should go back to the name "The Steel City Series" Keeping that tradition alive. I would really like to see it become a PDGA series also. Would encourage more out of towners to come, and would give us locals more chances to play PDGA events.

No doubles for the monthlies series.



wow, that was quick... 12 D-Tiers but not 4 rounds of doubles.... okay.


So this is going to still be the $10 monthly....how are we going to raise any money for the end of the year??



Only pay out like $6 a week, $2 to the end of the year monies, $2 to the course. That would promote peeps to come out for the end of the year prize. 20 dollars a weekend is not going to keep peeps coming week after week, especially ams.


And I think that we should go back to the name "The Steel City Series" Keeping that tradition alive. I would really like to see it become a PDGA series also. Would encourage more out of towners to come, and would give us locals more chances to play PDGA events.



Hey, cant argue with that one.

Another $2 taken out of each week is gonna really hurt the payout for the week. Which would maybe sorta kinda discourage me from coming out.

I think there should be a $20 entry fee if you want to be a part of the overall series, along with $1 a week. Change the entry fee to $11. That way if we get 20 people commited to playing in the overall series, we will have $400 + maybe $30 a month x 11 months for a total of $330. So maybe we would have about $750 to pay out at the end of the year.

As for doubles, I just think we should keep that as the 2nd round. Jeremiah did doubles for the 1 round in our final this year. I am not a big fan of that situation because it depends who you get paired up with as to how you would finish.

As for a 3 week final like we did this year. It's still an option, which gives more people a chance to make money.

I like having the overall pay out at the end of the year, and the possibility of the 3 week payout also. COuld pay out well over $1000 at the end of the year if we go this route.

As for who gets paid out..........for the total year, should pay out most points, and maybe most events attended, or best average??

Not sure yet.

I think we should eliminate the handicap system that was used for the devotional, maybe not all together, but redo it using the ratings calculator. Not sure if we even need that though.

I concur on eliminating doubles from the playoff structure. It would be okay to occasionally contest a doubles event where players earn points (maybe even double points) toward the series, but having doubles be part of the final playoffs is too dependent upon who you draw for a partner.

I do not want to take anymore out of our Monthly payouts. Assuming we set up the Knob Hill Monthly identical to Deer Lakes and Moraine, $2 out of every $10 entry fee goes to the course fund. At present, the course fund monies at both DL and M are earmarked for tees and a message board at Moraine. Similar to what Deitzel said, that leaves us with 80% payout which I think we need to leave alone. If you think about it, those two bucks we collect during monthlies is our club's main source of revenue.....we do not sell a ton of discs like other organizations and many of our ams step up to open during monthlies.

I like the idea that Libby had for this year and that was kickin' in an upfront entry into the point series. I believe the upfront fee was $10. Maybe we could either keep it the same or up the anty to $20 for 2008 and one gets a laminated bag tag or wallet card to show enrollment. The cards could be numbered and we could exchange them at every monthly and/or sanctioned event. We could even put the dates of the monthlies on the back side of the cards. We could also host addittional events throughout the year where a portion or all of the entry money goes toward the point series payout at year end.

Obviously, there are a lot of ways we can generate money toward the point series without dinging the monthly payouts more than the 80% it's at already. Several good ideas floating around....keep 'em coming. :)

Jerry

p.s. Who's going to be the Steel City Points Series coordinator? One person will need to obtain the monthly results to keep track of the point data in a spread sheet.

p.s. Who's going to be the Steel City Points Series coordinator? One person will need to obtain the monthly results to keep track of the point data in a spread sheet.


I would have no issue taking care of this. :cool:

When we do the course championships, those events could also count for double points. They could be used as a "Major" along with the Ironwood and PFDO. I do remember a good turnout for both Moraine and Knob Hill Course Championship. The money raised for those events went towards the Ironwood and PFDO but, maybe we could take 20% of that money and use it towards the Steel City Points Series.

I'm just thinking out loud.

So what we have is approx. 30 events - 10 at Knob, Moranie, and DL respectively. There is no need to add events or courses. Doubles could be a totally different series. You can tell you guys are Pros cause all you're worried about is how much money you can make. :D Not that there is anything wrong with that. I show up for the fun of it and to hang out with a great group of people.

I agree. The doubles format for the playoffs utilized a handicap system which was supposed to make the overall results equal no matter what the partners were. I think it did end up being fair. For instance, Dave Kuhrt and I had a 4 handicap for the playoffs and we shot a 58 as a scratch score from the blue's. This was a great round for us as we both made very nice shots. KB and Chris had a two handicap and I think that in viewing it they are both rated higher then Dave and I but shot a scratch score of 61. A 58 is a hot round from the blue's and realistically a 63 would have been a great score for the two of us making it a tie, but since we shot a good scratch score (because of a good round) we had a little more of a lead.

As far as the monthly set-up. I think a $20 league entry fee is a good idea. I also like the idea of bag tags but conceptually it is a hard process since not everyone will attend every monthly. I like Kurt's idea of having Major events through out the year. These events should be double points and should be considered for D-Tier sanctioning. I like the idea of having a points race with money to win at the end. I also like the idea of starting a tradition of a trophy bowl which will be passed to the winner each year and engraved. We should try to start a new tradition in Pittsburgh which will excite and draw new talent. As for weekly payout's; I didn't want to take away from the payout at the Sunday Devotional so I just added an additional dollar to the entry fee. However in the skeem of things the $10 entry fee is alot and a $7 payout per person is a fair amount considering that the final payout would be more in the end. But either way we need to devise a way to continously add money to the final purse. I also like having play-offs at the end to crown a champion. The point system this year worked out very good by utilizing a maximum number of weeks that count toards the total points for a player (15 weeks). I think this is a good idea to keep competition at a high and not to discourage players who cannot attend every event. I think we should set a max week of 20 but alos incoroprate a minimum week total of 10. Anyone who does not attend 10 weeks (which can include the three playoff weeks) cannot win cash from the cumulative purse collected through out the year in the play-offs.

I think that if you want to use doubles then you would have to run a seperate league for that.

Just my thoughts

Will there still be divisional play?
Will it follow the new PDGA amateur division and ratings breaks for 2008, i.e.: Expert 935+, Advanced 900-934, Intermediate 850-899, Enthusiast <850?

Hi Jeff! The monthlies will not change in regard to divisional play and participation in the points series will be optional for players. The points series will be divisional as well. By the way, I recently learned that the PDGA has decided not to use "Expert" and "Enthusiast" for division titles next year.....if I remember correctly, the amateur division titles will soon be labeled Advanced, Intermediate, Recreational and Novice.

Jerry, thanks for the info. Happy Thanksgiving!

anymore ideas anyone?

Just some comments and a question:

The start of the new Points Series, being played at three different courses, is a great opportunity to encourage new players to participate. That being said, I think that the four newly restructured PDGA amateur divisions should be offered. Also, if an entry fee will be charged for the Series, no monthly should be cancelled or rescheduled because of a conflict with non-PFDS tournaments or events.

Could the amateur division winners be paid in cash instead of plastic?

Jeff,

If we are going to utilize the PDGA structured divisions then shouldn't we also adopt the PDGA rules regarding payout's. Thus no AM can be paid cash as any player taking cash should be considered a Pro. Just kidding, to answer your question is easy. If an AM wants cash then they should move up to Open. Furthermore it is a money generator for the club and helps the club provide additional essential support to its members and to the community. We can go with different divisions as I believe we have been doing in the past. For monthly's we have always offered Open, Advanced, and Intermediate.

As for the schedule. It will be up to the individual monthly coordinators to establish a schedule that is not conflicting with other local events. They may also wish to to set these dates to not conflict with other popular tournaments. That will be at their discretion. Obviously they would need to all meet together to determine the schedule, how many events will be held, and at what courses. This schedule should then be published and only changed in an extremely exceptional circumstance. However it is in the end their decision as they are coordinating, maintaining, and running the league.

Hope that helps

Also, if an entry fee will be charged for the Series, no monthly should be cancelled or rescheduled because of a conflict with non-PFDS tournaments or events.





The monthly directors will soon establish a schedule for the 2008 calendar year. We will plan these events around other local/regional events which have historically attracted Pittsburgh players. Unfortunately, many regional tournaments have yet to be announced so we may end up changing some monthly dates to avoid conflict with other events. Cancellations and/or rescheduling may also need to occur in the event of extreme weather conditions, park closures, etc. This past year, we experienced both of these issues at Moraine State Park.

The absence of a TD is not reason enough to reschedule or cancel a monthly tournament. It should be the TD's responsibility to secure a substitute in advance of his absence.

Jeremiah,
I want to play in the Pro Division, but I know that my playing ability won't allow it. But, I'm glad that you can.
How much of the monthly Pro entry fee "is a money generator for the club", aside from the $2 course fund?
I realize that different divisions have always been offered. The PDGA now has 4 Am divisions and I'm suggesting that the monthlies do the same in order to encourage new and less experienced players to participate.

Jerry,
Some regional tournaments won't announce a date until well into the year. I think it's wrong to reschedule a monthly, that others had planned to play in, just so the TD and other Pros can play in an out of town event. Let the monthly go on as scheduled and those who choose to play elsewhere are free to do so.

Jeremiah and Jerry,
For a local club, I'd just like to see more attention given to the Ams instead of what appears to be attention given mostly to the Pros.

The money generated from the monthlies goes directly to the course itself(tee pads, general maintance, etc.) or the PFDS. The plastic that is used to payout the AMS was bought by the PFDS, which needs to be paid for some how. The majority of the plastic was bought for Tourney use and the left over would just sit around if not for the AMS in monthly events.

Personally when I play open i'm not looking to win. There are two reasons why I play open, ONE - Alanna has won so much plastic this past year that we don't need anymore and TWO - When you play with better players you generally play better yourself. If anything you can pick up on things they do that might help your game. I don't try to take this monthly events serious at all. That's what sactioned tourneys are for. I think how the monthlies are run now, you can't get much better.

With that being said -
SEE YOU AT MORAINE ON SATURDAY.

Just thought of something. To make it more Am friendly for the point series, how about using a handicap system for the Am players only. This would divide the point series into two different series - Pros and Ams. The Pros can play as before and the Ams will play with a handicap. This way all the Am players can be on a level playing field. And if a Am player plays pro one week it wouldn't count towards the yearly total. I think this would make it more beginner friendly and possibly generate more players coming out. It wouldn't be that much more work figuring out handicaps and keeping a running total of each divison (Pros and Ams). We could still use multiple Am divisions during monthlies then afterwards figure in each players handicap. What do you think???

Jeff,

I am an AM. I play open because I want a chance to win cash. Look at my player rating and you will see this. Not being mean but there are always changes in the structure in a schedule due to unforeseen circumstances. We modify schedules to accomodate for other local tournaments as well as to support other area clubs that support our tournaments. In cancelling or rescheduling a local event, this helps out other clubs that would do the same for us by promoting there event and having the Pro's and AM's attend.

Hope that helps.

PS: AM's are important. You should not speculate that we are not doing anything for them as I am an AM. Speculation often leads to misperception. Write that down.

Kurt,

You made some great points about AM payouts and you are absolutely correct.

As for the handicap system it sounds great and worked welll for the Sunday Devotional. However it is extremely time consuming and very technical. It makes it even more difficult when you take into consideration that handicaps have to be established for all the courses played.

Just my thoughts

Jeremiah, <font color="red"> Libby....if I may respond to Jeff's post....jerry :D</font>
I want to play in the Pro Division, but I know that my playing ability won't allow it. But, I'm glad that you can.
How much of the monthly Pro entry fee "is a money generator for the club", aside from the $2 course fund? <font color="red"> The same as the am entry fees.....$2 course fund. Yes, there is a small profit from the selling or awarding of club plastic....and much of that goes toward not only purchasing more plastic, but financing tournament costs which benefit all player divisions (player packages, park reservation fees, spray paint/rope for OB lines, etc.) By the way, pros purchase golf discs, too. I've got a stack of Coyotes and Orcs to prove it. </font>
I realize that different divisions have always been offered. The PDGA now has 4 Am divisions and I'm suggesting that the monthlies do the same in order to encourage new and less experienced players to participate. <font color="red"> We have always offered the same divisions as the PDGA, we just don't have a player base large enough (or diverse enough) to fill every division at our monthly events. Heck, I'll even let an anyone play by their lonesome in a division if that is what they wish to do. Our monthly sign-up sheets even include divisions for "Masters" and "Women", but this is basically a waste of space as we never have anyone playing in those divisions. If I remember correctly, Jeff, I persuaded you and three others to play "recreational" at Moraine once this summer....and that division was quite competitive score-wise. When I began playing in the early '90's, the am divisions offered were Am 1 (adv); Am 2 (int) and Novice (rec).....then they changed Novice to Recreational....and now we have both. </font>

Jerry,
Some regional tournaments won't announce a date until well into the year. I think it's wrong to reschedule a monthly, that others had planned to play in, just so the TD and other Pros can play in an out of town event. <font color="red"> We have very few Pittsburgh pros, unfortunately. Tim, Sid and Dave recently stepped up to the Open division last year so our pro field has almost doubled. The reason we have rescheduled monthlies the past couple of years is to not conflict with local PDGA events which attract several divisional players from Pittsburgh. Shoot the Breeze (Ashtabula) and the Pleasant Valley DG Classic (Fairmont) are two perfect examples where the Moraine Monthly was rescheduled to not conflict with these popular tournaments.....and in each of those tournaments, there is a larger percentage of AMs who have historically attended those events. </font> Let the monthly go on as scheduled and those who choose to play elsewhere are free to do so. <font color="red"> Our state coordinator, Jeff LaGrassa, has already forwarded me the most current calendar of PA events for 2008. I have reached out to other TD's outside of PA to inquire about their sanctioned tournament dates for next year as well. We will be planning our tournament schedule next week and we hope to avoid revising the '08 schedule if at all possible. Nonetheless, rescheduling could occur for a number of reasons or unforeseen circumstances. I will reiterate that the absence of a TD is not reason enough to cancel or reschedule a monthly. It is the TD's responsibility to find a replacement in his absence.</font>

Jeremiah and Jerry,
For a local club, I'd just like to see more attention given to the Ams instead of what appears to be attention given mostly to the Pros. <font color="red"> Please explain, Jeff.... :confused: During our sanctioned tournaments, we give the ams more items in their player packages than the pros. I have run the Lakeview and Knob Hill course championships as fund raisers for the Ironwood and PFDO, respectively. The trophies, bag tags and the majority of the CTP prizes have come out of my own pocket (a small number of CTP prizes have been donated by J Gary and Chris Deitzel....thanks guys). The kicker is we have only had one pro division (Open), but we've had three amateur divisions at these events. And because we've had such a large participation from the Intermediate division, I've already purchased extra trophies for the 2nd place finishers in that division. In addition to the course championships, this year I initiated "The Invitational at Moraine State Park". This is a handicap tournament for the monthly competitors.....and it is handicapped because of the large number of amateur players we have within the PFDS. In fact, an amateur won this year's inaugural event. </font>

In fact, an amateur won this year's inaugural event. </font>



That was me - I RULE

<font color="red"> The reason we have rescheduled monthlies the past couple of years is to not conflict with local PDGA events which attract several divisional players from Pittsburgh. Shoot the Breeze (Ashtabula) and the Pleasant Valley DG Classic (Fairmont) are two perfect examples where the Moraine Monthly was rescheduled to not conflict with these popular tournaments.</font>



Agreed with Jerry, here. Keep in mind that there are minimum required distances between PDGA Tour events, as displayed in Table 5 of the PDGA Tour Standards (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2008/08TourStandards.pdf). While the majority of players at tournaments come from the local player base and tournament plans shouldn't be changed to cater to a handful of players who travel, and while the PFDS monthlies are not PDGA sanctioned and the events referenced are not within the state of Pennsylvania, I would argue that the PFDS monthlies should still adhere to the spirit of the tour standards and not conflict if possible. Even if that means rescheduling because a PDGA sanctioned tournament pops up long after the monthly schedule has been decided upon.

[QUOTE]
<font color="red"> I would argue that the PFDS monthlies should still adhere to the spirit of the tour standards and not conflict if possible. Even if that means rescheduling because a PDGA sanctioned tournament pops up long after the monthly schedule has been decided upon.



I have to agree with the state xoordinator here.

Jerry
You're doing a great job! I don't say that sarcastically.
I wasn't aware that PDGA tournaments take priority over local club events, although I don't agree with that.
But you guys still don't get it.
This is not about which division I play in, if or what I win, player packages, or any other prizes.
My suggestions were simply meant as A WAY TO EXPAND THE PLAYER BASE. I'd like to see 40-50 players from all divisions at every monthly!
Since I'm being misinterpreted, there is no reason for me to view and reply to this forum.
Good Luck to all.

Jeff,

This is not personal it is a matter of discussion. As such please understand that it is in the PFDS's best interest to increase the number of players as well. However you may want to do some research to find out how many other local clubs are paying out winnings to AM players in cash. Just as an example, I went to the Boise Disc Golf Club Championship in Boise Idaho. They also pay out Discs and prizes (not cash) to AM players.

Jerry, in the clubs in NC and Texas how was this handled?

Jeff Lagrassa, How is it handled in your area? Are there any rules which state we cannot pay out AM's in Cash?

The more input the better on this topic. But normally AM's are new players who are trying to compete and get involved. As such I believe the majority like getting the plastic. Additionally we give out the plastic at the PFDS discounted price. So in terms of money you could actually profit additionally if you chose to sell it (as many people actually do).

We are not putting your suggestions down, but rather are providing detail to you to increase your awarenes as to why we operate in the manner we have been.

DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY

Name: Pittsburgh Championship Series

Courses: Moraine, Knob, Deer Lakes

Schedule: To be announced and posted by 3 Monthly coordinators. Will not conflict with local PDGA events and will abide by PDGA restrictions regarding distance. Schedule is subject to change in exceptional circumstances.

Points: Every player will earn 1 point for each player they beat or tie including 1 point for them self. Final Points standings will include the top 20 event points finishes only.

Play-offs: Three week play-off (dates to be determnined). Players must attend at least 10 events (can include play-off events) to be eligible for accumulated cash pot payout. Seeding will be based on points standings. The 3 weeks of play-off entry fee will only be paid out at the end week 3 and all players attending play-offs are eligible for this.

League Entry Fee: Fee for the league will be $20. Players will receive items which will be determined later. Remainder of entry fee will be split between the final points pay-out as well as the Play-off accumulated Pay-out.

Monthly Entry Fee: Entry Fee will be $10 per person. $2 will go to Tee Pad fund. $1 will go to the Points and Play-off payout accumulated pots. $7 will go towards the weekly payout. Open will be paid out in cash and AM's in prizes.

Divisions: All PDGA divisions will be offered.

Set-up: Players will play 1 round per monthly (single) from the tee's determined by the monthly course coordinator (TD). Doubles will not be included in points standings.

Majors: These events will be double points events. These events will be fundraiser events for PFDS tournaments and other requirements (e.g. Tee Pad Fund).

Handicap's or player ratings: Is at the discretion of the individual Course Coordinator to compile.

Thats what I have so far. Please respond with missed items

Jeff.....

It's easy to be misinterpreted on a message board and my apologies if I responded to your message the wrong way. The last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from posting on the PFDS thread. I wish we had more local folks who used this forum to discuss, criticize, praise, joke, etc....

When it pertains to organized disc golf, we have an extremely small player base here in Pittsburgh and I can't put my finger on why. The casual rec players are definitely out there on our courses.

When I ran our weekly mini in Arlington, TX, we averaged 48 players every Sunday morning....and that was back in 1992-1996! In 1997, I moved to Greensboro, NC and several clubs hosted monthlies which often drew even larger crowds. The twin-cities run a Tuesday night Sun-Dog doubles series which travels from course to course each week....and they would consistently see 50, 60....sometimes 70+ players for those league nights.

A no brainer is to get a message board at Moraine. That would help us get the word out about our league events to the locals up there. Signage near hole 1 at Knob might not be a bad idea.....something simple that informs the casual rec players that we have monthly leauges and weekly doubles during the spring/summer months.

Libby,

In reference to your question about other disc golf clubs, I've always seen amateurs paid out in merchandise. Only the ace pot was paid out in cash to an amateur player.

In reference to the point series set-up, I like Deitzel's suggestion of naming it the "Steel City Series". Many folks should remember that Bryan Wright created that short lived series (2005-2006) which attracted a lot of players and raised money for our courses. I know he probably won't read this, but "we miss you, B".

League Entry Fee......I like the idea of a $20 point series entry fee for the year, however, as previously posted, I would be opposed to deducting an additional $1 from the monthly entry fee. We already have an 80% payout from the monthly entry fees....I don't want to reduce it to 70% because not everyone who plays the monthlies can or will participate in the point series. Besides that, taking 30% out of each monthly's entry fee reminds me too much of our government and those legalized thieves named the Internal Revenue Service.

Maybe we could host two or three additional events throughout the year where a $5 or $10 entry fee goes toward the point series purse?

The tournament directors will soon be meeting at J Gary's house to plan out the schedule for '08. That would probably be a good time to iron out proposed details for the series.

My two cents...

Jerry

Maybe we could host two or three additional events throughout the year where a $5 or $10 entry fee goes toward the point series purse?




We could hold an event in my neck of the woods, or at Timberlink. Or we could use the invitational as an added event.

We could hold an event in my neck of the woods


why not use Indiana as a monthly, btw? peeps travel an hour to Moraine, why not an hour to IUP?...

I'm begging to hold a monthly or something at IUP. BTW, there will be a Course Championship held in April to help raise money for the PASDGC. A date will be posted later, once the Moraine, DL, and Knob Monthlies get posted. Along with the Ironwood, Moraine Course Championship and Knob Hill's Course Championship. This will probably leave me with a random Sunday or no date at all. But so be it, it will have a date and it will happen even if no one shows up, but i'll be there.

Jeff Lagrassa, How is it handled in your area? Are there any rules which state we cannot pay out AM's in Cash?




Almost universally where I have traveled in my disc golf exploits across the United States and Canada over the last 12 years, amateurs are awarded prizes in the form of disc golf merchandise - disc golf discs, bags, t-shirts, etc. Doing otherwise would be the #1 way to encourage sandbagging and would be a travesty. What's to prevent 1000+ rated pros from playing as an amateur in unsanctioned events if there is the financial incentive? You can't count on "pride" and "honor" to guide people to make the correct decision.

I remember about 6 or 7 years ago when a club in New England tried to pay amateurs in cash. The outcry on the NEFA message board was swift in condemnation of the practice.

About the only exception is weekly random draw doubles events where teams play for a modest fee - $5 per person or less, and there is only one division and pros are typically matched with amateurs at random.

I'll be there... I'm looking for reasons to make the drive to Indiana more often (I have to admit its hard to go anywhere and play when the DLDGC is three minutes from your house). If you look back in this thread I actually suggested four monthlies... why leave College Lodge out?!?

I know one other thing too Kurt, if you and the better half shack a brother up that weekend for a night I'll take you two to the train station then some other old IUP stomping grounds. MMMMmmmmm, Diablos at Cozumel. :cool:

I can definitly shack up some people in Indiana for the Course Championship or the PASDGC. I don't have a huge place but i have an extra bedroom and plenty of floor space.

Cozumel...you gotta love that place. In fact i think i'm going there right after i'm done typing this to grab the Speedy Gonzales lunch special. Taco, enchiladas, and rice/beans all for five bucks.

Kurt, does Cozumel still have all you can eat taco night?... man, tons of tacos and large amounts of Dos Equis... I can't think of a better way to spend a tuesday nite! I never could eat the dozen though, that was our crews' benchmark... often attempted, rarely reached.

I don't think they still do that. I haven't checked in a while. The last time I ate the all you can eat, my friend ate 13 tacos! I still think thats the record for a single person. Then he spent the next three hours in the bathroom...

Kurt,

I don't see why we wouldn't be able to hold a major event for the series at IUP. However it would be hard to have a regular monthly there. The hour is all good and fine, and yes some people in "da burgh" do travel an hour to get to Moraine but the spread of the courses (Knob, Moraine, Deer Lakes) ussually pans out to a shorter drive for some people on certain weeks and others on other weeks. If it was at IUP it would be an Hour drive for almost everyone and possibly longer. Thats the only complaint from people that I think you will get. But with that said I am all for having a major event at IUP.

Jerry,

If we do not go with the $1 going towards the league for each entry fee, what do you propose we do. The majority of the events that we hold for fundraisers go towards tournaments (rightfully so). But I do know that you DEFINETLY need to add money to the purse or the final payout will not be worth all the work and effort put into running the league. What if we made the entry fee $20 and added a dollar to each weekly entry fee?

Regarding an IUP Lodge Monthly
There's no reason to discourage any member of IDLA from hosting a monthly at the Lodge. If their monthly doesn't conflict with something else going on, I guarantee you there would be some Pittsburghers who would make the hour drive to play that course.

Regarding the Steel City Points Series
As I posted previously, if we charge a $20 anty to get in on the series, we've already doubled the money collected upfront in comparison to this year's buy-in of $10 to play the series. Instead of taxing the monthly payouts an additional dollar, we could host two, three or four additional events throughout the year where the entry fees collected could go directly to the point series.....or maybe 50% of the entry fees could go to the point series payout, etc. We could charge an extra buck on top of the monthly entry fee, but not everyone will want to play in the point series. We could charge the paid-in players an extra buck at each monthly, but that becomes an accounting issue and under that scenario, some point-series players will subsidize the point-pot moreso than others who play fewer monthlies. :D

The monthlies are the monthlies....show up, pay $10 to play in a division and maybe you'll cash in the top third. The point series should be an optional side-thingy (in my opinion).

There's obvioulsy lots of options to consider. I'm sure we'll discuss it during the meeting at J Gary's tonight. We will be planning the monthly schedule for 2008 as well as discussing how to solicit sponsorship for next year's sanctioned tournies. One thing I want to do with any type of point series is keep it simple. We will have three separate TD's running monthlies on three separate courses....communication will be critical in reference to a maintaining point series data, paid-in memberships, etc.

Regarding an IUP Lodge Monthly
There's no reason to discourage any member of IDLA from hosting a monthly at the Lodge. If their monthly doesn't conflict with something else going on, I guarantee you there would be some Pittsburghers who would make the hour drive to play that course.




I not talking about holding a scheduled monthly at the Lodge, even thought that would be awesome. I just don't feel it's worth my time. It would be to dependent on people driving from Pittsburgh.

Two things I was refering to. One is to hold a Point Series event at the Lodge (all money would go to PFDS)

And number two is...All I want is to have one day in April set aside for IDLA to hold a Course Championship before the PASDGC.

IDLA is trying to add $750 to the pro purse this year and doing a Course Championship will be a good way for players to practice the course and for IDLA to raise some money. So please, when your have your meeting at J Gary's house, keep that in mind. I'm totally willing to work with any free weekend day available. It could be on the Sunday after the Moraine's Course Championship.

Kurt,

If someone (you) is willing to run a monthly at the Lodge, I think it's a good idea. When I started up the Sunday Devotional at Knob Hill six years ago, I remember being elated when we had more than 10 people show up (for a long time it had been only 6, 7 or 8 folks who played those early tournies). Eventually, IDLA should build it's own player base and PFDS members would simply be a bonus.

As for a Lodge Course Championship, I think that is a great idea. We should have our PFDS schedule ironed out this week.... :D

As much as i would like to run a monthly up here, I think is a lost cause. Too many college students that wouldn't be willing to pay to play. Each year i meet new players then after a couple years they are gone and new ones arrive. 75% of the new players I meet at the Lodge play for a couple months then i never see them again.

Personally, I don't think i would have time to do so. It seems like each weekend Alanna and I were traveling to a PFDS monthly or a PDGA tourney. And that was great, I would much rather do that than worry about how many people are going to show up at the Lodge for a Monthly.

You know what I mean?!?!?

This feeling might change later after I meet with that private land owner up here that is willing to let IDLA use his land for a new course. This will happen in the Spring. "Hopefully" :D

It was good to visit J Gary at his house last night. He's hobbling around (slowly) by using one of those walkers you see elderly citizens utilize. In fact, my 85 year old father-in-law has a bad back and uses one of those walkers.....and he's much quicker than J Gar.... :) All jokin' aside, we wish J Gary a speedy recovery as I'm sure he'll be taking our money again later next year.

We worked on the PFDS Event Calendar last night...and that was about it. The calendar should, hopefully, go live on the PFDS web site this weekend. We added dates for the following events:

Knob Hill Monthly
Deer Lakes Monthly
Moraine Monthly
Ironwood Open
Pittsburgh Flying Disc Open
The Hunt at Deer Lakes
Lakeview Course Championship
Knob Hill Course Championship
Deer Lakes Course Championship
The Invitational at Moraine (handicap event)
Pittsburgh Scholastic Series (events 1-6)
Schenley Ice Bowl
Timberlink Open
Other regional tournaments (i.e. WVO, PA State, Codorus Spring &amp; Autumn Open, Shoot the Breeze, Pleasant Valley Classic, etc)

Kurt....We chose Sunday, April 6 for the IUP College Lodge Course Championship. We decided against having the IUP Championship follow the Lakeview event at Moraine. Hopefully, that date is good for yinz...

Jeff Stanek.....We tentatively chose Sunday, Aug 24 for the Discraft Ace Race. Please confirm if this date looks like it will work for you as it is approximately the same weekend as this year's event.

The PFDS Event Calendar is going to be a very useful tool. Obviously, there are other local events to add like the Tuesday Night Doubles at Knob and the Schenley Wednesday League. As more regional, sanctioned events pop up on the PDGA schedule we will add the closer ones to our Pittsburgh Event Calendar so our members can consider going outside the 'burgh to play. We plan to add another Timberlink event to the schedule as well as two or three "special" events for the Pittsburgh club. Calendar events can easily be edited or rescheduled, but hopefully, we won't have to reschedule too many events.... :)

Perfect!!!

btw, I was at J Gar's house last night and this calendar that Larry threw together is pretty sweet. Once it's live I believe it will be a useful tool for all us yinzers and those wishing to travel here for events.

That is great

[i]Regarding the Steel City Points Series
As I posted previously, if we charge a $20 anty to get in on the series, we've already doubled the money collected upfront in comparison to this year's buy-in of $10 to play the series. Instead of taxing the monthly payouts an additional dollar, we could host two, three or four additional events throughout the year where the entry fees collected could go directly to the point series.....or maybe 50% of the entry fees could go to the point series payout, etc. We could charge an extra buck on top of the monthly entry fee, but not everyone will want to play in the point series. We could charge the paid-in players an extra buck at each monthly, but that becomes an accounting issue and under that scenario, some point-series players will subsidize the point-pot moreso than others who play fewer monthlies. :D




Yes, I agree with you Jerry. But you are overlooking the fact that no matter how you set it up that someone could have a better advantage then others. If you have majors to finance the points series then those who don't attend the majors but participate in the other events may get more of an advantage but they will miss the double points. I'm ok with this, because in the end they won't win the points and depending on their skill level may not cash in the play-offs. The only downside is that there may be people who also don't want to participate in the Points series who will have to pay more money in one week then they would if they showed up to 5 monthlies and paid $1 additional to it.

The monthlies are the monthlies....show up, pay $10 to play in a division and maybe you'll cash in the top third. The point series should be an optional side-thingy (in my opinion).

Series events I've seen in other areas where straight-up points with no playoffs.......highest points at end of season wins division....and in some cases, a traveling trophy (along with the $$$) :D

Series events I've seen in other areas where straight-up points with no playoffs.......highest points at end of season wins division....and in some cases, a traveling trophy (along with the $$$) :D



Yes I have seen it also without play-offs. But I have also seen it with Play-offs and have run it with Play-offs and personally I feel at adds alot of competition and brings people together at the end of the year. I didn't see you complaining when you took home $120 from the play-offs :eek:. After all you would have only won $10 otherwise from the points series.

However I was thinking while I was sleeping last night and came up with a good possiblity. We can host major events as fundraisers for the aggregate pots (points and play-offs). Minimal amount of events is 10. Lets make the entry fee $20 for the league. After a person plays 10 events they will then be charged an additional $1 for each event played. This amount will be paid prior to the playoffs and will be a simple calculation of (total events paid minus 10). This will allow for the recreational golfers to still participate, allow for an added amount to the pot, and make it easy to calculate as it would not require an extensive accounting system. My thought on this is that the total points payout is based on the top 20 points finishes. So the more a person plays, the better the chance they have to win, thus the more they pay into the pot.

What do you think? I mean we are talking an extra $10 per person who plays 20 events. Thats not substantial but it is enough to increase the final payout. :D

And... The extra money generated from the additional entry fee's for events played over 10 should ONLY go towards the points pay-out. The play-offs have additional money added to them from the play-off weekly entry fees so that pot will accumulate enough additional money anyways.

What are your thoughts Jerry?

Any other important things I have missed with the set-up of the points standings?

Yes....I'm curious what the other monthly TD's want to do with this point-series. Because three of us will be running separate leagues, yet having to coordinate points data between the three leagues, I'm thinking we want to keep everything as simple as possible. Scott and Sid may have differing opinions....

Scott and Sid what are your desires?

Apparently Scott and Sid agree with me since they do not speak. Silence my furry little felines!!!! :D