I have been informed if a Pro or Pro Master cash in 80% of the events they play in a year, that as long as they do so and maintain their Avg under 955 that they can play AM and collect prizes anytime they wish within the same year. Please vote then post why you feel the way you do.

I just think you should be one or the other but not both.

I don't think the 80% matters, you can cash in 100% and still play am. Nothing new.

955 rated players are not competitive in open.

I'm not saying the 80% matters I think it is wrong if you accept cash once. I did not understand it this way I thought you had to petition the PDGA to return to Am Status. That it was looked at in a case by case basis.

If it makes you feel any better, the 955 cap will be increased to 975 for 2008-on.

955 rated players are not competitive in open.


maybe not but in open masters events in some parts of the country they are.

Pro Masters with ratings under 955 cannot play Adv Master unless their rating is under 915. However, they can play Advanced.

So since I am a 970 and have won Pro events in the past I can renew in 08 as an AM and save money and then play AM?

Here's an example where it may have made more sense for the one Open player to play Advanced. However, he gets to win cash instead of merch. So maybe next year, some of the Ams might play in Open and they could earn merch prizes under the new guidelines.
www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7169#Open (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7169#Open)

Either way, the current rules allow tournaments with few players in some divisions to consolidate for better competition if the players choose to. There have been events where I could play by myself and win my money back in GM Pro or played with the Advanced and have some competition, especially since many of them have higher ratings. Same thing for pro women in many parts of the country where they have no competition unless they play in a men's division at some smaller events.

Any pros who wish to return to am status must petition the Tour director, Dave Gentry, and explain why. It was only going into 2007 that pros could revert to am ststus with no petition required under the one-time general amnesty plan.

However, you can renew as a pro and still play in am all you want next year if your rating stays below 975.

that approach gets you the right to pay an extra $25 dollars for your membership dues, and returns... um... tell me again. what does he get for registering as a "Pro"?

factoid (using 2007 data through 10/7/2007)

Per event, the PDGA receives $20.86 from a Pro member-player, and $17.36 per Am member-player. ((membership fee + event fees) / number of events played)

maybe TDs NEED to move some money into the Pro payout, because at least viewed this way the PDGA gets 10% more per event from Pro players than from Am. the median yearly earning for members classed as Pro is $37! and 60% of this year's Pros have earned less than $100 in payout. not much of a return on the $25 extra bux Pro members pay. should Pro memberships cost the same as Am membership?

Consider the amount the PDGA pays toward Pro Worlds including the DVD, marketing, NT and marshal programs that are mostly pro oriented and I think you'll find much of that difference. I figured you might have dug into those numbers by now?

chuck, honest question... what total amount do you think is defensible to allocate towards "pro" players? i have started to look at those numbers, but wold be interested in seeing how you figure it out and comparing that to how i'm attempting it. thx...

I haven't looked those program financials since that hasn't been my responsibility. I'm just saying that those programs I mentioned are mostly pro oriented. I would think you might have access to the details to make some determination. If we're talking 2500 pros and $25 member fee difference, we're talking around $60K in additional member fees that in theory should be going toward items of more value to pros than ams.

the "details" are not organized in a manner that makes these allocations easily calculated... i have seen "Pro" benefits estimated from $60K - 165K.

Pro contributions are much more readily itemized - all of the following info can be retrieved from this website. Data is from 10/3/2007:

Pro Members : 2,960
Pro fee: $25 (extra $25 on membership fee) = $74,000

Pro Player Fees:
NT: 1567 players * $5 per player = $7,835
A: 7512 players * $4 per player = $7,512
B: 5947 players * $3 per player = $17,841
C/D: 5,252 players * $2 per player = $10,504

total received from Pro Player pockets, YTD: $117,692

I'd be curious what percentage of Pros these additional benefits reach. How many attend worlds or NTs....vs. how many are just local or regional Pros, paying the higher membership fee but using no more services than the local or regional Ams?

Dave, except for Pros who cash and receive extra payout cuz of PDGA supplied payout cash, very Pros receive a direct benefit.

i also find it tenuous at best to say that the DVD and the marshalls program benefit predominately Pros. the benefits of those programs have traditionally been expressed in terms of "for the good of the sport", rather than delivered to one narrowly defined constituency.

I don't think it's appropriate to include the fees paid at events by pros since they pay the same as an am at the same tier level. In theory, if you play more events and/or higher tiers, you get the same event benefits as everyone else on a scale equal to your payments. I think you only look at the difference in the member fees between am and pro and compare that to the programs that the PDGA supports that primarily benefit pros.

i am looking at the very real dimension of Membership Class.

if you do it your way, you'll need to further segment those Pros into "pros who might reasonably receive some of the PDGA supplied payout cash", "pros who played NTs and received value from Marshall's", etc.

when analyzing income and expense along the Membership Class dimension, you pretty much need to start with all income from Pros vs all income from Ams as a baseline. adjustments can be made to refine the analysis, but you gotta start with the basics.

That's a great question, and at the heart of many curious pros who don't attend worlds: "just what is the extra $25 for?".

Chuck, do you ever present balanced arguments? Once again, you mention the marshall program as some pro benefit. I doubt you can find even more than 15% of pros who would list this as a beneift. Besides, how much does this cost?

Seondly, we have the old marketing and DVD production. I'll assume from your post that these are losses, that somehow should be paid by the pros, because these losses somehow benefit the pros the most. :confused: Additionally, if you claim these efforts are to help the sport, doesn't everyone benefit?

So, your supposed benefits are neither beneficial to most players or non-existent in the examples of losing investments.

More importantly, you never mention the other side. Is not this whole ratings system and the associated work an absolute necessity aimed to prop up our am divisions. Shouldn't you mention that fact. There might be some other things I've overlooked.

At any rate, I have yet to see one convincing reason why the renewal fees are different. This decision was probably not thought through very carefully, or if there are good reasons, they have never been communicated well.

Not really. Only the member fee difference is relevant in regard to programs. All pros and ams pay the same fees at events for the same tier. And, from a PDGA service standpoint there's nothing the pros get in PDGA services that the ams don't get in regard to sanctioning, points and ratings.

not entirely true. insurance, for example, is comp'd to NTs and Ms, but B/C/D pays $50 per event. additionally, you seem to be suggesting that how the event fees are allocated between Pro and Am services does not matter since they are collected outside of Membership fees. i dont agree with this approach. those signing up as Pro expect something for the money they pay, regardless of when they pay it. further, using your approach, we'd have to exclude pdga-supplied pro purse sponsorship cash from the list of Pro benefits since it only truly benefits a handful of 1000 rated pros in any appreciable way.

The added cash and support for Pro Worlds is all pro related even if a member doesn't take advantage of it or isn't able to win any of it. That's the reason they "should be" pros is competing for whatever "big" money we have at this time. It's a benefit available to all pro members just like they can win the added cash at events that comes from local sponsors. There are Am Majors and I suspect there are just as many am events and likely more than pro in a year. Usually there's an am A-tier at NTs. Does an NT TD pay for insurance for the Am portion of the event? If not, then the insurance aspect is even more inconsequential as a difference.

I`m sorry ,I missed something .tell me again how the DVD`s and marketing benefit specifically the Open divisions?Marshalls ?I thought they benefited the TD as supplemental staff? :eek:

The DVD for Pro Worlds is financed by the PDGA and doesn't always make back the investment. It's getting closer but still a loss. Marketing is for raising sponsor money for added cash to pro purses. In theory, enough should be raised to cover the cost. But I don't believe it's breakeven yet. The marshal program was specifically developed to professionalize the NT events a little more. Ams do get marshals at their handful of championships. But it's primarily pro events like NTs where marshals are sent.

MARKETING is the way we get more interest in the sport.It incidentally draws more money into the pro purse.It sounds as if the DVD`s fall under advertising!

I have been informed if a Pro or Pro Master cash in 80% of the events they play in a year, that as long as they do so and maintain their Avg under 955 that they can play AM and collect prizes anytime they wish within the same year. Please vote then post why you feel the way you do.



Another reason WHY PROS should have to pass a RULES TEST to be a PRO.....
Know the RULES....It has been this way since LAST YEAR.
Heres onr for ya...NEXT year AMS can play PRO...CASH...AND get Prizes instead AND still stay AMS :o

I bet you like that one though because it brings more PROS to you... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

So since I am a 970 and have won Pro events in the past I can renew in 08 as an AM and save money and then play AM?



:oAGAIN...LEARN the RULES..its NOT rocket science :eek: