JRauch
Sep 25 2007, 02:35 PM
Just look at the $$$$
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6933
DSproAVIAR
Sep 25 2007, 02:36 PM
What is the problem?
JRauch
Sep 25 2007, 02:40 PM
How is it fair that the master's winner recieved more money than the open winner just because there was one more person in his division?
tenWatt
Sep 25 2007, 02:49 PM
More players equals bigger purse. That doesn't seem difficult to figure out to me AND it seem quite fair.
rizbee
Sep 25 2007, 03:16 PM
Sounds like the added cash for the pro purse was split proportionally between the Open and Masters based on registration?
(I edited this post after running some numbers)
I think added cash should go mostly (or exclusively) to the open Men's and Women's divisions - they typically are playing the best.
mbohn
Sep 25 2007, 03:20 PM
Sometimes the amount listed at first isn't the actual added cash payout..... Could be a mistake
rizbee
Sep 25 2007, 03:22 PM
Open and Masters were paid out about $60 per registrant in their division, so there had to either have been some added cash or all tourney costs borne by the Ams.
ck34
Sep 25 2007, 03:23 PM
Many places have had the Masters entry fee lower than Open for years to prevent seemingly unfair looking payouts when division sizes are similar.
krupicka
Sep 25 2007, 03:32 PM
Added cash goes wherever the sponsor wants it to.
MTL21676
Sep 25 2007, 03:34 PM
Just look at the $$$$
http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=6933
there is a HUGE problem with this.
PDGA events REQUIRE at least 40% payout.
The open paid 37%
The masters paid 33%
How hard is it to follow a payout sheet on the TD report?!?
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 04:17 PM
there is a HUGE problem with this.
PDGA events REQUIRE at least 40% payout.
Are you sure this is true. Aren't the TDs allowed to pick from two different scales?
If MTL is correct, what happens when TDs violate the sanctioning?
accidentalROLLER
Sep 25 2007, 04:40 PM
Nothing.
krazyeye
Sep 25 2007, 04:47 PM
Paying one more spot would bump them to 45% and 42%. That just seems silly... Are the payout tables recommendations or requirements?
MTL21676
Sep 25 2007, 04:52 PM
James, what do you mean if?
lol
But sadly Colin is right. The PDGA is afraid of losing volunteers so they do nothing to stop bad TD's from doing things they don't want.
If it was me, I wouldn't want my name attached to bad TD's. Apperently, this does not bother the PDGA and until it does, payouts like that will continue to happen.
dthrow
Sep 25 2007, 05:12 PM
Look at the payout for Sugarbush NT. Is that fair?
MTL21676
Sep 25 2007, 05:14 PM
i say no, and started a thread about that.
http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.ph...;gonew=1#UNREAD (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=744014&an=0&page=0&gonew =1#UNREAD)
however, that payout was in guidelines....
lien83
Sep 25 2007, 05:20 PM
Looks pretty fair to me....I played in a tourney this year with 27 open players and got 3rd....I only received $155
This tourney 10 players 3rd got $135....I got hosed
Pawnee Gulch Classic in Leadville, CO...
:(
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 05:33 PM
Paying one more spot would bump them to 45% and 42%. That just seems silly... Are the payout tables recommendations or requirements?
I don't know, but I am assuming it is a requirement from MTL's response. As to your other point; it might be silly, but if you were that last person, or had a chance to be the last person, it becomes meaningful. Besides, isn't one of the main points of choosing to enter a sanctioned event knowing exactly what to expect? Is it really too much for the TDs to do this right, or communicate to them how to do it right, and let them them know that if they choose not to, there is some penalty or something? Are we so desperate as to let sanctioning become meaningless?
krupicka
Sep 25 2007, 05:38 PM
If one looks, they will find a lot of other TDs paying only the top 1/3 as this one did. Old habits for TDs die hard.
krazyeye
Sep 25 2007, 05:49 PM
Paying one more spot would bump them to 45% and 42%. That just seems silly... Are the payout tables recommendations or requirements?
I don't know, but I am assuming it is a requirement from MTL's response. As to your other point; it might be silly, but if you were that last person, or had a chance to be the last person, it becomes meaningful. Besides, isn't one of the main points of choosing to enter a sanctioned event knowing exactly what to expect? Is it really too much for the TDs to do this right, or communicate to them how to do it right, and let them them know that if they choose not to, there is some penalty or something? Are we so desperate as to let sanctioning become meaningless?
Okay saying it is silly is me not looking from the eyes of someone trying to win some money. So I retract that. But if it is only a recommended pay scale and not required all you can really do is gripe or not play at TDs events if they get a bad reputation. Okay I just looked it up it is very clear 40% as per the sanctioning agreement.
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 05:50 PM
Oh, I agree, that is why I was asking if it is a requirement or not?
bruce_brakel
Sep 25 2007, 05:57 PM
I think there is nothing unfair to you about a TD deviating from the payout charts unless the TD promised you he'd follow the charts. Several TDs in the Great Lakes states advertise payouts that deviate from the payout charts. I would not expect PDGA payouts at any tournament reasonably close to Chicago except maybe Milwaukee. And if I was looking for good payouts, Milwaukee is the last place I'd look.
crgadyk
Sep 25 2007, 05:59 PM
That tournament has historically been one to stay away from. Thats why I was at home that weekend. I knew it wasn't going to be worth the hour drive over there for a 2 day C tier masquerading as a B tier.
krazyeye
Sep 25 2007, 06:17 PM
The Paytable here (http://pdga.com/documents/td/07PayTables.pdf) according to this after I looked again paying 37% deep with 11 entrants is acceptable.
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 06:22 PM
Wow, I guess it's just me, but that is one of the things I totally expect to be done, and if it isn't, the PDGA should get on it.
However, after a very difficult search of the PDGA site to verify MTL's assertion, I can't say whether any payout scheme is required, or just suggested.
This is pretty pathetic imo. One could pay $100 bucks to enter a tournament, and find out before the last round that it is winner takes all.
The use of a uniform payout table is one of the most important forms of standardization, right after "following the rules." Is the fact that there is no language binding TDs to a minimum payout % ineptitude or a conscious decision. I am assuming a conscious decision, and would love to know why the PDGA felt that latitude for a TD was desired. Totally baffling.
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 06:25 PM
I must be missing something, I only see 40% at the lowest %.
accidentalROLLER
Sep 25 2007, 06:33 PM
This is pretty pathetic imo. One could pay $100 bucks to enter a tournament, and find out before the last round that it is winner takes all.
Who says the TD has to post payouts before the awards ceremony? I have been to many sanctioned events where payouts where never posted. If TDs don't have to follow the pay table, why would they follow any of the other guidelines?
ck34
Sep 25 2007, 06:33 PM
The pay table shows 4 paid out of 11 for 40% payout. With smaller fields the numbers such as (4/11=36%) are only rounded to the closest value matching the goal percentage. However, 5 should have been paid on that basis in the Master division that raised the issue. Paying deeper in the lower pro divisions is another way to reduce the perceived fairness issue of better payout for worse score.
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 06:39 PM
Are the TDs REQUIRED, at a minimum, to follow the tables and pay 40%? For example, if there are 100 people, must the TD pay at least 40, and if not, are there any repurcussions?
ck34
Sep 25 2007, 06:57 PM
I know there are repercussions but I don't know what they might be for a fact. Tournaments that don't meet the guidelines have not been sanctioned the following year, or the club told a different TD must do it, or the event downgraded in tier status. Dave deals with this and I'm not sure what he has been able to do.
From a practical standpoint, there's a better chance for event "quality control" from PDGA members dogging the TD than from PDGA HQ. It's more important for TDs to serve their customer base, on balance. So if players demand the rules be followed, the more likely the TD will comply. I know that TDs are acutely aware they need to post results online quickly because players want to see their ratings. My most common email is from players wanting me to fix unofficial ratings or post results when it's the TD that has the info not Dave or myself.
james_mccaine
Sep 25 2007, 07:03 PM
Thanks for the response to the second question, but you didn't answer my first question: are TDs required to pay 40%?
msbatka
Sep 25 2007, 07:05 PM
And if I was looking for good payouts, Milwaukee is the last place I'd look.
Bruce - I think I know what you're elluding to. However, there are a lot of us here in Milwaukee fighting the good fight. I just don't want anyone reading this thread to get a bad impression of what is a great disc golf scene.
Mike
ck34
Sep 25 2007, 07:26 PM
Yes. At least the TD pledges to do so right on the sanctioning agreement they sign. See the pledges near the bottom of page 2.
www.pdga.com/documents/td/07SanctionAgreement.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07SanctionAgreement.pdf)
MTL21676
Sep 25 2007, 08:52 PM
Are the TDs REQUIRED, at a minimum, to follow the tables and pay 40%? For example, if there are 100 people, must the TD pay at least 40, and if not, are there any repurcussions?
basically, here is what you do as the TD...
You enter in your names and divisions on the spead sheet. You enter in your tournament entry, and then the tier. The per player fee auto calculates over and deducts based on tier. Then, any other additional per player fees are manually entered in. Then you go over to the payout sheet and select whether you want to pay 40, 45 or 50 %. Then, add in your added cash to that division. Then your payout is auto-calculated.
Sure, 4 out of 11 is now 40%, but if that is what was on the payout table, then cool.
But I know for a fact that in the division of 12, 4 is not the required payout.
The bottom line is its very very simple. All you have to do is data entry and the TD file takes care of all the math. You use to have to do it by hand. It was very time consuming. This feature was put in a few years ago and its a MAJOR time saver.
junnila
Sep 25 2007, 09:40 PM
I know there are repercussions but I don't know what they might be for a fact.
Double secret probation.
seewhere
Sep 26 2007, 10:33 AM
you get put on the message board Disciplinary list never to be removed from it :confused:
I think allot of TD's still pay top 3rd. which is not what they signed up to do.. but hey with no reprecussions what will stop them..
chappyfade
Sep 26 2007, 10:24 PM
I think there is nothing unfair to you about a TD deviating from the payout charts unless the TD promised you he'd follow the charts. Several TDs in the Great Lakes states advertise payouts that deviate from the payout charts. I would not expect PDGA payouts at any tournament reasonably close to Chicago except maybe Milwaukee. And if I was looking for good payouts, Milwaukee is the last place I'd look.
Define what a "good payout" is. I bet I can come up with a different definition.
Chap
mitchjustice
Sep 26 2007, 10:41 PM
A good payout is one that does not get any nasty comments on the board Monday morning :D
MTL21676
Sep 26 2007, 10:44 PM
I think there is nothing unfair to you about a TD deviating from the payout charts unless the TD promised you he'd follow the charts. Several TDs in the Great Lakes states advertise payouts that deviate from the payout charts. I would not expect PDGA payouts at any tournament reasonably close to Chicago except maybe Milwaukee. And if I was looking for good payouts, Milwaukee is the last place I'd look.
Define what a "good payout" is. I bet I can come up with a different definition.
Chap
great point....
good players want top heavy and high entry fees
bad players want more even and lower entry fees
mitchjustice
Sep 26 2007, 10:45 PM
Mr. Legend...yes TD's are "required" to payout at least 40%...45-50% is "suggested"...Capt. FacePlant out
chrispfrisbee
Oct 04 2007, 01:06 PM
40% as per the sanctioning agreement.
Correct.
Here's the Payout Scale with Minimum and optional Suggested and a Deeper payouts.
http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07PayTables.pdf
Alacrity
Oct 04 2007, 05:59 PM
My take......
TD's sign a sanctioning agreement that requires use of the payout tables. If the TD does not use the tables, and you feel you have been ripped, report it to the PDGA BOD and they will address it. Will it be handled to your preferred and prescribed level of punishment? Don't know.
As for payouts being "fair", it seems to me that there is a misunderstanding of the payout tables. In effect the payout tables pay steeply to the top players and flatly to the lower cashing players. I guess you could payout linearly, but the problem with that is that the payout difference between first and second and third place would be practically nill for large events and I don't think anyone wants that. Well on second hand, if you always place in the top four and never take first, you might want it.
As for added money to the Master's divsion. While the Open division is the top performing division, are we now saying that the other divisions are NOT in the "professional" class? Why not say the Open Women are not scoring as well as the open men, therefore we shouldn't put money into that division either. That would be counter productive and quite frankly, ridiculous. Pretty much it is an age biased argument to not add money to all "pro" divisions. I balance the money added based on what the division cash loading is. If there are more Master's players and more Master's money, I will put more money into the Master's division.
For Open Women, I believe you put even more money in.
As for percentages for payout, the PDGA has recommendations, and not all TD's use them. However, some people prefer the TD's stance and some don't. Really if you have a compaint with a TD, vote with your $'s. Don't play their event.
omegaputt
Oct 05 2007, 01:20 AM
Isnt their an excel document that you can use for payout? I know I saw and used one for 2006, but I cnat seen to find the document anywhere. Could someone provide a link or PM me.
Thanks
krupicka
Oct 05 2007, 08:34 AM
That's because the information for running tournaments is not under the information tab. You have to go to the home page, look in the box on the right for the tour information link. That is the only route to getting to this info.
But for the lazy
Calculator (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/PayoutCalculator2007.xls)
Alacrity
Oct 05 2007, 03:57 PM
Jason,
My Excel scoring routine uses the PDGA payout tables and is used by many TD's. If you want a copy I can e-mail it to you, just PM me your e-mail address.