Why are entry fees higher for Open than Ams? Do Open players ask for higher entry fees? Do 1010 rated pros ask for higher entry fees so that they can win more money? Schwebby? Where exactly is the demand for high entry fees?

Will a higher entry fee attract one touring pro at the expense of detering five local pros for coming? Is this what the PDGA wants? Is this what the competition director wants? Is this what SuperPro want?

I think TDs have this notion that Open players want the highest entry fee possible to feed the kitty.

I am fortunate enough to have won a few open tournaments in my day. One would assume that I would want the highest entry fee possible to ensure a big payout. To the contrary, I would like to see the lowest entry fee possible to encourage more Open players to play. IMO, the cost of entry should not be the determining factor in whether a player attends or not. If I were a chronic donator to the Open field I agree that my opinion might just be considered whining.

PDGA membership costs more for Open players and nearly every PDGA tournament has higher entry fees for Open vs Am. This system seems to further discourage Open players, and respectively encourage ams to play.

The PDGA system is move up, move up, move out. Why should it cost more to be good? Only the PDGA seems to know.

I surmise that the kid who played 51 PDGAs as an Am last year wouldn't play that many if he played open.

IMO the PDGA is run by ams for ams. Ams entry fees are lower, memberships are lower, yet they get the exact same benefits as Open players.

I personally think high entry fees are due to demand from the ams who have been conditioned to think the should be rewarded for playing at a mediocre level. In the tradition of the PDGA Open entry fees are higher than am entry fees. Therefore, TDs raised entry fees to appease ams and respectively raised pro entry fees for no reason.

I'll finish with a fact. I regularly play with two of the best am players in VA. They both say that high entry fees are the biggest and possibly only reason that they don't move up. I have honestly told them time and again that I support their decision to stay Am 100%. I don't blame them one bit.

I personally think that all entry fees should be rolled back 50% across the board. I also think that Open and Am entry should be the same price at a PDGA event so money won't be the reason for choosing a division.

Here's a few comments I have in addition...

It seems that the PDGA system was, in part, at fault for high entry fees--requiring "minimun purses" for tier status. I applaud the PDGA for changing the tier requirements to be based on added cash. One step in the right direction.

The PDGA only suggests maximum entry fees on the last page of this document www.pdga.com/documents/td/07TourStandards.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/07TourStandards.pdf)
TDs have always been able to charge as low as they want for entry fees. However, the more likely reason for higher pro fees is that the PDGA has had minimum purse requirements to meet B and A tier status. That has changed to minimum added cash versus purse for next year so TDs at all levels could charge much less if they wish. It's up to the clubs and TDs to pursue this since no PDGA guideline will hinder lower fees.

I think pro entry fees are higher because pros want to pay more and have more in the pot. If pros wanted to pay $10 and just play for fun and a little lunch money, pro TDs would offer those tournaments. I don't see a lot of that. If entry fees plummet next year, now that TDs don't have to make B-tier and A-tier pot minimums, then I'm wrong. We'll see.

Speaking as an Am....

I assume the higher Open Fees are exactly because Pros want higher payouts. Or at least in a roundabout way---TDs want to advertise higher purses, and higher entry fees is the most practical way to do so.

I agree that both Pro & Am fees are too high--but when the PDGA tried to mandate a cap, there was a howl. I suspect too few think they're too high.

The high Pro entry fees are not only a barrier to Ams moving to Pro, but to the bottom-tier pros staying there. In some cases, they reduce the number of tournaments a player is willing to play.

P.S. Our 1-day March Madness event had a $25 pro entry fee and $400 payout for first.

I personally attend Tournies that have entries above 50 bux, or it's not worth my time.

Plus, you have to shoot really well at smaller teirs with less top pros to get good ratings...

Plus, you have to shoot really well at smaller teirs with less top pros to get good ratings...



I HATE IT when that happens.....BUT dont forget..the ratings are GOOD & there is NOTHING wrong with them :p

This is a really good thread. I am in agreement with Whorley in that high entry fees discourage ams from moving up - especially women who are generally less comfortable with betting than men. So it's very often that a C-tier in Michigan will have 2 pro women and 7 am1 women, with one or two of them beating up on the other five. But those 1 or 2 girls are still finishing 20 strokes back on the pro girls, so they just chill in Am and whollop the new girls every event because they don't want to lose sixty bucks. It's the smart move, but the pro women's division suffers lack of participation.

This is also the reason why as a pro female who has just played her 40th event this year, I'm very picky about which tourneys to attend and which to skip because of high entry and low REC (reasonable expectation to cash). Last weekend the main reason I went to the Yetter was because the entry was only $35, but the club subsidized the rest of the entry so payouts were still good. True to tradition, Burl, Des and Val took home the top three payouts and left a hundred bucks for me in last cash. If the A-tier entry had been a hundred, that leaves no profit, so why attend?

I skipped the Hambrick this year for that very reason even though I wanted to go and could've gone. So as Whorley says, is it worth it to attract SuperPros at the expense of deterring local pros from playing in expensive events?

I think sarah is right about high entry fees keeping am women down in ams. Kelsey looks at the $60 to $100 entry fees for pro women, and the $20-$40 entry fees for intermediate men, and figures it makes more sense to stay am. We play disc golf for fun, and throwing $100 away for a whomping lacks the fun value. My Half-In (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=741440&page=0&vc=&PHPSES SID=d0994341b92d229823fb1f8263d487ae#Post741440) concept could do a lot to overcome that kind of problem. Especially now that we have the Am Taking Prizes in Pro rule for 2008.

Ah, but there is a certain level of maturity that comes with the move. I see many of my past competitors who have moved up to pro and they have not only enhanced their game, but they have moved to a new level of responsibility. They support the sport and pay the fees and I here little complaining. They have accepted it like a graduate student accepts the increased tuition..... They dress better for the event. They are better behaved off the course and on... Its like part of the right of passage from Am to Pro. I'm sure they would appreciate the option but that money contributes to the payout for everyone and I bet most serious pros would stay full-in due to peer pressure and the chance of winning.

This is an interesting thread. I am not a pro, not even close. I always wondered why the fees were so high. I also wonder why fees are higher for Advanced Ams vis a vis Rec Ams. It seems some want more in the kitty so more is in play for the winners. Others just want a reasonable buy in so everybody can play. Next month Brett is running a tournament in Bloomington, IL and the flyer states:


ENTRY FEES
DIVISION FEE
All Pro Divisions $35
All Amateur Divisions $25
All Junior Divisions $15
Non PDGA Members Add $5.00 to fee above except Juniors
All Amateurs will get a $15.00 voucher as a player pack.
$5.00 from entry fee will cover tournament expenses.
Standard PDGA Payout charts will be used.
Juniors will be playing trophy only.
Trophies will be simplistic and only offered for large divisions.

Its pretty flat. It will be interesting to see whether this attracts or repels players. The cheap buy in attracts me. It also might attract me to play advanced Grandmasters since its the same price and I can play with kids my own age. For the pros they have a reasonably cheap buy in but have a few bucks more in play than the ams. If Kelsey was coming into town would she consider playing pro in an event like this? Will the locals who are soon to be labled "experts" figure that for an extra $10 they get to play against the big boys and big girls? Hmm.

Having watched entry fees and their development since 1987, and having played pro in all but 2 events in my 20 years of tournament golf - I can definitely say I am not asking for or desiring high entry fees - and I don't know a single pro player who is/does.
The evolution of entry fees is based largely on TD ego and the desire to attract players from far and wide to play in their event. There isn't a TD out there who doesn't take pride in being able to give away a big prize - and few who don't want to make their event bigger and better each year. The concept of establishing minimum purses for the various tiers was "SUPPOSED" to encourage TD's to go out and get added cash for their event. But the PDGA never really put much in the way of resources into teaching people how to do that successfully. So TD's did the next easiest thing - they took a look at their expected field size, and raised entry fees to the point where with minimal added cash - they would meet their purse requirements for the tier they signed up for.

The divisional structure added to this by not addressing the "choice" issue of divisional play - and TD's naturally caught enough flack that the easiest way to "TRY" and assure the highest skilled players were competing for the biggest prize, was to make the pro entry bigger than the Am entry. Of course then enters the whole entitlment culture where guys supposedly "AM" whose skills largely equate to middle of the pack Open players - also wanted to compete for the biggest possible prizes - driving fees upward.

Event quality is often judged based on amenities, attendance, and purse size. When an event has a history of big purses, and good amenities - attendance is easy to get. When it's a new event - the easiest and fastest way for a TD get a decent sized purse -is with a high entry fee - but that doesn't guarantee a good quality event - or good attendance. But they don't know that - they're new! They just see other people charging $60-$70 bucks for MPO down the street and they figure it's what you're supposed to do!

Thats a great explination...and, makes sense. We will see if that makes a difference in entry fees this year. I might play Pro more if it wasnt so expensive.

I started playing in organized tournaments in 1978, and I believe even back then the entry fees for Open/Pro were higher than for Ams. This was obviously well before there were A or B tiers, and even before there was a PDGA Tour. I'll take a look at my scrapbook to confirm this.

You pretty well summed in up. But it's not just TD-ego...they do attract players with those high payouts (& high fees that fund them). Looks like there's a little pushing and pulling from both sides of the ledger---the TDs and the players.

I read an article in the DGW where Dan Ginnelly mentions that in the early days they only used to pay 1st 2nd and 3rd no matter how many players there were? I seem to remember him saying the pro back then hated that. And if you think about it a much lower entry fee could pay out a nice paycheck to the top 3 given there were enough entrants. I seem to remember something about flattening the payouts to get more participation. If that is case it makes sense that fees would go up to keep the payouts sensible. Thoughts?

The ideal situation is low entry fees, high external funds added to the purse, and a fairly broad payout for more than the top three players.

I play in both a PDGA sanctioned series (NorCals) and a non-sanctioned series (CVS). I have seen tremendous growth over the last 3 yr in the CVS. Many players love to play in events that rarely cost more than $40, often have cash added (kudos to the savvy TDs for securing those funds), and payout the top 30-40% of players in each division. Even though the amenities (player packages etc.) aren't usually as nice as PDGA events, people like the low cost. They are also more willing to "play up", gaining valuable experience.

Granted, the CVS non-sanctioned events are also 2-round, single day events. But it's impressive when these fill up early (most are pre-registration only) and draw lots of non-locals. It's even more impressive when you compare it to some sanctioned NorCal events that do not sell out early (or at all).

Cheers,
Steve

Footnote: In the DITCH (team tourney in Michigan) we charged every player on each team the same.....we didn't charge the one-seed sixty bucks to play and the 6 seed ten bucks.....sounds silly to do it any other way, huh?

Why are entry fees higher for Open than Ams? Do Open players ask for higher entry fees? Do 1010 rated pros ask for higher entry fees so that they can win more money? Schwebby? Where exactly is the demand for high entry fees?

Will a higher entry fee attract one touring pro at the expense of detering five local pros for coming? Is this what the PDGA wants? Is this what the competition director wants? Is this what SuperPro want?

I think TDs have this notion that Open players want the highest entry fee possible to feed the kitty.

I am fortunate enough to have won a few open tournaments in my day. One would assume that I would want the highest entry fee possible to ensure a big payout. To the contrary, I would like to see the lowest entry fee possible to encourage more Open players to play. IMO, the cost of entry should not be the determining factor in whether a player attends or not. If I were a chronic donator to the Open field I agree that my opinion might just be considered whining.

PDGA membership costs more for Open players and nearly every PDGA tournament has higher entry fees for Open vs Am. This system seems to further discourage Open players, and respectively encourage ams to play.

The PDGA system is move up, move up, move out. Why should it cost more to be good? Only the PDGA seems to know.

I surmise that the kid who played 51 PDGAs as an Am last year wouldn't play that many if he played open.

IMO the PDGA is run by ams for ams. Ams entry fees are lower, memberships are lower, yet they get the exact same benefits as Open players.

I personally think high entry fees are due to demand from the ams who have been conditioned to think the should be rewarded for playing at a mediocre level. In the tradition of the PDGA Open entry fees are higher than am entry fees. Therefore, TDs raised entry fees to appease ams and respectively raised pro entry fees for no reason.

I'll finish with a fact. I regularly play with two of the best am players in VA. They both say that high entry fees are the biggest and possibly only reason that they don't move up. I have honestly told them time and again that I support their decision to stay Am 100%. I don't blame them one bit.

please stop making sense on here.
I personally think that all entry fees should be rolled back 50% across the board. I also think that Open and Am entry should be the same price at a PDGA event so money won't be the reason for choosing a division.



please stop making sense on here.

I play MA1 and would much rather pay $75 to attend a quality event, then $30 for a lower quality event. In my region, AM events typically fill up well in advance with $50-$60 entry fees. That tells me that the entry fees are priced correctly, at least in my area.

but what are you getting for the 50-60$? Is that just registartion? or do they give you lunch, a party, a players pack.....

I play in some awesome events that are sub 30.00 and they have nice players packs.

Most event that were 50-60$ in Cali gets you registered and a player pack. Some do have lunch.

Players Pack, Green Fees, Lunch, CTP, Raffles. What is the most important thing to me however, is a well run smooth event.

OK ,here is an event to check out...Pratt ks HOT AND COLD OPEN only 64 players pro/am.Well run,ctp for all divisions (I mean CTP BIG),good map,community support (over 1000 added cash). ENTRY...$35.00 OPEN! LESS FOR ADV and so forth downward. This is what a "b"-tier is all about.Not 65.00 fee to boost the purse just to meet PDGA standards!I would rather go out of my way to support a new event like this which is doing it right than travel to a richer event based on entry fees.Next year it should grow...thus rewarding a great TD`s efforts.

no matter what motivation TDs have for raising entry fees, it's helping the sport. maybe that's the hidden agenda behind the pdga making required purses for certain tiers. Other popular sports (golf) have high entry fees, and it only goes up over time. this increases the appeal of the sport overall. drama. pressure. this sport will never grow to a similar size and will never have the same appeal if the entry fees always stay low.

i think the am entry fees should always stay pretty low and pros entries should keep going up. make the jump to pro mean something. eventually, as the sport grows, more sponsors will step up and help pay fees or maybe just pay players a yearly income to attend tournaments, and those who don't sponsor players will be missing out on a lot of money from advertising. now, if the prices suddenly double, most players will just stop coming and only the cream of the crop will bother attending tournaments at all. it has to go up gradually or it will never work. i think this is how the pdga wants it.

i guess if everyone agrees that the prices should stay low then the sport will continue to stay out of the public eye. is that a good thing?

nope. copied from golf online site.

Must PGA Tour players pay an entry fee to play in all tournaments?

PGA Tour members do not have to pay an entry fees to play a PGA Tournament. Nonmembers pay an entry fee of $400. As for the majors, The Masters is by invitation only. There is no entry fee for the pga championship. For U.S. Open qualifying, players pay a entry fee of $125. The entry fee for the British Open is 100 pounds ($162 American).

I asked a similar question recently to the TD in my area. He didn't have a good answer.

I am still AM2 - barely. One of the biggest reasons I haven't moved up is due to the cost. It may be 'only' 10 dollars (or whatever other small amount) but it adds up. When I am forced to move up, I will be forced to pay extra. Am I going to cough up extra money? or am I going to play fewer tournaments?

The disc golf budget doesn't change, only the cost.

The disc golf budget doesn't change, only the cost.


In that regard - DG is no different than any other activity that you pay to enjoy. Whether going to a movie, skydiving, skiing, bowling, whatever. Some of those things are pretty expensive hobbies - DG generally offers a greater chance to get something back, just by participating. That's got to weigh into how you consider the expense IMO.

Why are entry fees higher for Open than Ams? Do Open players ask for higher entry fees? Do 1010 rated pros ask for higher entry fees so that they can win more money? Schwebby? Where exactly is the demand for high entry fees?

Will a higher entry fee attract one touring pro at the expense of detering five local pros for coming? Is this what the PDGA wants? Is this what the competition director wants? Is this what SuperPro want?

I think TDs have this notion that Open players want the highest entry fee possible to feed the kitty.

I am fortunate enough to have won a few open tournaments in my day. One would assume that I would want the highest entry fee possible to ensure a big payout. To the contrary, I would like to see the lowest entry fee possible to encourage more Open players to play. IMO, the cost of entry should not be the determining factor in whether a player attends or not. If I were a chronic donator to the Open field I agree that my opinion might just be considered whining.

PDGA membership costs more for Open players and nearly every PDGA tournament has higher entry fees for Open vs Am. This system seems to further discourage Open players, and respectively encourage ams to play.

The PDGA system is move up, move up, move out. Why should it cost more to be good? Only the PDGA seems to know.

I surmise that the kid who played 51 PDGAs as an Am last year wouldn't play that many if he played open.

IMO the PDGA is run by ams for ams. Ams entry fees are lower, memberships are lower, yet they get the exact same benefits as Open players.

I personally think high entry fees are due to demand from the ams who have been conditioned to think the should be rewarded for playing at a mediocre level. In the tradition of the PDGA Open entry fees are higher than am entry fees. Therefore, TDs raised entry fees to appease ams and respectively raised pro entry fees for no reason.

I'll finish with a fact. I regularly play with two of the best am players in VA. They both say that high entry fees are the biggest and possibly only reason that they don't move up. I have honestly told them time and again that I support their decision to stay Am 100%. I don't blame them one bit.

I personally think that all entry fees should be rolled back 50% across the board. I also think that Open and Am entry should be the same price at a PDGA event so money won't be the reason for choosing a division.



i will never charge more for one division than another at any event i run. my ice bowl- $15 all divs. my c-tier last weekend- $20 all divs. ams got a decent players pack, and everyone enjoyed free beer after the tourney. all pdga fees were covered by sponsorship for all divisions and i was even able to add a few hundred to the open payout.

i'm also considering never offering advanced at my tourneys as long as the cutoff is 970. at the druid hill open we offered gold, silver, bronze. essentially this was simply not offering age protection or advanced. we had less than a month to plan for and advertise this gig and we still had 73 people come.

there were a sizeable number of players who took money for the first time. i wonder if the $75 renewal fee will keep them from coming back?

Everyone,

Even though I constantly campaign for more equitable support for older players, this is one area in which I feel that older players are unfairly favored. The PDGA claims that it would like to attract more Open players, and that it would also like them to profit from their tournament play. I agree with both of those goals. It would make sense, then, to lower the Open entry fees and to raise those fees for the age-protected divisions. It also makes sense from a demographic standpoint -- on the average, older players can better afford it.

Since pro disc golfers play mainly for other players money this makes the payout larger for the open division than the other divisions.

Can you imagine the outcry if a tourney had 14 Masters and 13 Open players and winning Masters (at -8) got more $$ than winning Open (at - 15)?

Good question though.

Since pro disc golfers play mainly for other players money this makes the payout larger for the open division than the other divisions.

Can you imagine the outcry if a tourney had 14 Masters and 13 Open players and winning Masters (at -8) got more $$ than winning Open (at - 15)?

Good question though.




It happens all the time.

Happened to me this year at Sherando. One of many reasons I think the current divisional structure is lacking in integrity.