CHulsey
Jul 13 2007, 11:43 AM
Ok so, being new to the fabulous sport of disc golf...I've noticed something. There are very few women play. Of all the PGDA, less than 10% are women. I have some questions: How can we get women more involved, both professionally and just for fun (fitness)? What are some things that might appeal to ladies, such as clothing choices, disc choices and accessories? How can we help Cheryl with the WDGA? Ladies...what would you like to see more/less of when you play? More water? sleeveless tanks? pink/purple discs? Think about when you play with your weekend handicap games, or in PDGA Sponsored tournaments...what do you want or need?

cyferban
Jul 13 2007, 12:28 PM
Yes i would love some suggestions as I am always looking for idea's for my players packs for the ladies, no item is to small. What could you use while playing or could you get for playing that would be useful or appreciated.

haleigh
Jul 13 2007, 03:05 PM
I got all I need! My chair, bag, snacks and my honey..I don't see why chicks don't dig it? Maybe they don't want to get dirty? :confused:

marshief
Jul 13 2007, 03:07 PM
I am about to shoot myself in the foot because I was in your exact spot about two years ago. Read around the board and you'll see that there are plenty of us still trying to get things accomplished for women in disc golf. We don't need someone asking the questions, we need someone getting stuff done. I for one am now trying to help out the PDGA women's committee (which I feel has much more of a chance at accomplishing things than the WDGA).

There are tons of things that have already been done though. Your questions clothing choices, discs, etc. are all answered by companies like Disc-Diva which designs specifically for women, and then places like Huk Lab having a women's line. Having pink or purple discs won't get more women playing. Having pink or purple clothes won't get more women playing. Water is not solely a women's issue, and neither is port-a-potties. I don't play tennis even though I like the outfits, restrooms are readily accessible, and rackets come in all sorts of fun colors. I don't think these are our answers.

cyferban
Jul 15 2007, 12:03 AM
Yes i can understand that you have all the things you need to play, and live. I personally believe that for disc golf to continue to grow we MUST HAVE MORE WOMEN PLAYING! They shouldn't have to compete agaisnt the men, they don't have to have the desire to compete but just a love of having fun, i suppose they must want to compete some, we can have the PRO, AM1, or AM Masters womens divisions for that, for example. I think it would be great to go to any tournament any where and see divisions for AM3 women and men, not 1 division for AM Women and AM1, AM2, AM3 men. It's unlikely this will happen in my lifetime but i will push that envelope as far as I can till then. I don't want my event to be a competitive event right now, I don't stress that but it is somewhat, sure it is a disc golf tournament.
I see HUNDREDS of ladies every week playing disc golf and so few of them foray into a competitive arena. I have trouble figuring out why they play disc golf but won't play tournaments? Some of them play to hang out with boyfriends, some with just friends, some by themselves! I want to see them enjoying the sport like all of us do who visit this forum. I try to stress i don't wish to push them to competition but to the types of event that makes it fun for them and enjoyable playing disc golf. Sure there are lots of women out there who love to compete, but hopefully they are playing the higher divisions like PRO or AM1 divisions for women. I want to help the AM2 or AM3 women enjoy it and if they want to get competitive then let them move up to those competitive divisions.

Last year I, my wife, daughter, my best friend and his wife went to Peoria for the USWDGC event. they loved it and so did I. so many women playing disc golf and having fun. I want that type of event but i don't want an event that will not allow non-PDGA members to play!!!!
Thanks for listening to my thoughts what are yours?

cyferban
Jul 15 2007, 12:44 AM
All efforts take time and work.
I have to ask the questions as i haven't the knowlege to accomplish your goals or mine without them.
I am sorry but i don't have time to read around the board, i am self-employed and busy. I know this sounds like an excuse, but i have 2 women who help me with my research! My wife and my best friends wife. so maybe i will have her look around for me.
I don't know cheryl from the WDGA but I believe shes trying and in the right place and frame of mind. Heck some people might question my motives as I am a guy?
I disagree that the PDGA has a better chance then the WDGA of accomplishing a better womens disc golf environment. I joined and quit the PDGA 5 years ago because they didn't seem to care (TO ME) about AM's in the PDGA, i still think they don't see AM's properly (Hence the PDGA Professional DGA). DO YOU THINK THIS IS ANY BETTER FOR WOMEN? Are you a Women PRO? Maybe that is why you wish to pursue the PDGA route, i think the PDGA might be the vehicle for women in the future but not now. Lorrie Gibson was fantastic to me for what i was trying to do and so has Julianna Korver been (Please forgive me if i misspelled either name please), Lorrie is gone and I have been begging Julianna to come back to my course, this doesn't mean she doesn't support disc golf, perhaps that she doesn't like the courses we have up here. I firmly believe that both of these ladies are 110% behind women's disc golf.

I see the disc-diva website as geared towards women's disc golf and supporting it. But Huk?, they flatly turned me down even for stickers for my event!!!! I have approached every major disc manufacturer and except for QUEST, got no positive response, NOW i know i am nobody running a nobody event at the moment, but who do you think i am going to remember when my event is running at the 'A' tier payout level? Quest! I don't ever want to be an 'A' Tier as that would not allow me to have non-PDGA members as players! THAT IS WHERE THE PDGA HAS GONE WRONG, in my opinion!!!!!

I don't know what you want me to say to your 2-year crusade. Sorry that might sound harsh. I think I/We have been searching for what you did. I don't know you or your efforts, maybe the USWDGC made it easier for me i don't know. But if you want to help I would think you would want to share that knowledge you learned to get where you are.

I have been fighting a battle of my own for my vision. I bring in $6200.00 in sponsorship and 22 ladies play, i give it all away to them. My 2nd year i am hoping for 44 players and hoping for that same level of payouts, yet sill i meet resistance!
What am I to do? find the sponsors or meet that resistance. I suspect the Old-Timers are resistant to the possibility of women getting better payouts then them? LOL or maybe not.

thoughts to ponder.
I thank you for you response
and your efforts in the past towards what i hope is a mutually beneficial goal.

valkhere
Jul 16 2007, 10:31 AM
I truly believe, as I just posted in another thread, that a huge part of bringing the ladies out to play is having other ladies getting them out there. I started a women's league in Lansing and it's grown to be a huge success for me. I've got girls ranging in age from 18-64 out there playing with me. I think a lot of it is intimidation at first. Getting these girls out to come play women's league is so much less intimidating for them than playing with the guys. And now I have about 20+ girls playing!

I know when I first started playing, and was most of the time the only girl in the tournament, and having to play with guys was so intimidating. I was always worried about what they thought of me throwing. A lot of girls feel that way and if you can get them together in a league, it's so much different! We have so much more fun, so many more of them say "Hey, I'm really not that bad" when they see some of the others are beginners too or at the same skill level. It's also a lot easier to learn from other women as we don't throw the same as guys. So get more women's leagues! I give out a free disc to each girl on their first night at league!

SarahD
Jul 16 2007, 10:48 AM
Erin, have any of the 20+ women in the Lansing league made the transition to playing tournaments? How many of them? How did you convince them, and what are the barriers for the women who did not start playing tourneys?

I'll say it again: I want to go to the Hambrick and play this weekend. It would be good for such a big event to have a big women's field. But they have promised to pay out 4 of 8 women, or still 4 if I show up and make 9. Des, Val, Burl, Elaine and Angela will be there. There's no cashing room for me, so I won't be going.

Ideas go nowhere unless action is taken and are therefore useless. I've proposed an action plan: offer me a reduced entry to become a filler lady at the Hambrick. Where is my response? My action plan has fallen on ears unable to hear, hands unable to do and mouths unable to even speak to me.

CHulsey
Jul 16 2007, 10:49 AM
ValkHerE - how did you get the ladies league started? I would really like to start one here in Tallahassee...but have NO IDEA about how to get it going. We have a disc golf club here, and while it is not for men only...There are only men involved. I had to learn to swallow my fears and just throw...but it was really hard...especially when there are pros involved. I would really like not to be only girl who plays in the Saturday Morning Handicap.

valkhere
Jul 16 2007, 01:10 PM
Sarah - Most of my women's leaguers just wanted to play the tournament cuz it was at home and it was women only. Had it been a normal tournament, some of them probably would not have played because of the intimidation. My 64 year old women on my leagues, Leslie, had played a couple tournaments before that just to prepare for what was coming at the women's tournament in Lansing and after she played her first one she was hooked. And I think she was hooked cuz of the meeting of other women at the tournament and the passion of the sport that everyone shares. I do have a few girls that won't play tournaments because they don't like competition and just come out to play for fun. And I don't make it a competition at leagues. We don't play for scores, we do best shot doubles and I give out a CTP disc or have a putting contest for them after we play.

Lady - I just started my league by posting a flyer at my two home courses that I was starting a league for Women only and picked a day of the week and time and put my number and email address on it. Girls started calling me and I'd already had a couple girls that I played with and some others I had met at tournaments and talked about it so I finally just did it. I made it a free league to play. Next year we may have a weekly fee of like $2-$3 or something like that just so we can get some funds for our club to get a logo to print on some discs and sell for more profits and grow from there. But every time I see some girls out at the course I tell them to come play women's league and they'll get a free disc their first time out (which comes out of my pocket, but it's more of a joy to see them out there!) and if they don't want to come back, they don't have to. But 99% of them have a blast and come back again! Our local club is also very supportive of the women here. A lot of the guys from the club try to convince girls out there to come play women's league as well so I have to thank them as well. DJ, local guy at the park who sells discs, also donates discs sometimes for me to give away at league, as well as JBird, and some other local club members. So try it! Put up a flyer and see what happens! :)

valkhere
Jul 16 2007, 01:13 PM
Lady - oh and by the way. Don't get discouraged if you don't get that many girls to start out! I tried this whole women's league years ago with my sister and there ended up being just 4 of us the whole year so we got discouraged and didn't keep up with it. Well, I have a daughter now who is almost 4 and traveling is harder for me so I started the women's league so I could play more often even if I couldn't go to tournaments. I actually enjoy playing with my league women more than playing tournaments now :)

marshief
Jul 16 2007, 01:18 PM
ValkHerE - how did you get the ladies league started? I would really like to start one here in Tallahassee...but have NO IDEA about how to get it going. We have a disc golf club here, and while it is not for men only...There are only men involved. I had to learn to swallow my fears and just throw...but it was really hard...especially when there are pros involved. I would really like not to be only girl who plays in the Saturday Morning Handicap.


The Innova website has a section devoted to women in disc golf, and I believe the PDGA has a brochure available on women's leagues/clinics, etc. If you can't find that information, go to the PDGA contact page and send a message to the PDGA office asking for information. You should also not discount what your local club can do to help. They will likely be your best resource for how to start a league, period. You could even ask the pro men if they will help hold a clinic for women. Talk to local women when you see them out playing, pick a day/time/course you want to hold your "women's league" and tell them about it, then just see who shows up.

I'm still thinking about my response to discgolfrules so as not to give a knee-jerk reaction. But I would like to let you know that I am an AM and have only been playing for 2 years. If you click on my username, that will take you to my profile. At the bottom my PDGA # is listed, and if you click on that it will take you to my stats page. This is true for every member of the forum. You'll notice I haven't played any this year - this is due to knee surgery over the winter. But I'm still a member of the PDGA, and I still go to tournaments to help out however I can. In the spirit of full disclosure, my fiance is a pro so I travel with him to the tournaments, but I haven't gone to all of them. I fully believe that even without him, I still would have gone and volunteered my time as an unplaying official for most of these tournaments. I know that really doesn't answer most of the questions, but I wanted to get that out.

CHulsey
Jul 16 2007, 01:22 PM
Thanks Erin! I will make some flyers this week, and I like the free disc idea. I think that I will also talk to the other league we have here. They are a great group of guys to play with...and I have learned so much from them...perhaps they might help! The worst they could tell me is no, right? :D

Personally, I was scared out of my mind my first tourney. I was brand new to the sport, but it was here in town. I was the only woman, so I played in a group with 3 other guys. That was really scary. But they were really cool, and very supportive. But above and beyond competing...I loved the exercise! I HATE monotonous physical activity. With Disc Golf...there is a purpose and it is a great fitness tool...and I would love to see more ladies involved in that aspect as well!

denny1210
Jul 16 2007, 01:24 PM
Courtney:

Tallahassee's a growing scene for disc golf. Great to hear that you're excited about the sport. There are a bunch of quality people playing regularly out your way. The Ricke family, Mark Gill, Laymon Gray, and Grant Beck are all very friendly and encouraging of new people. The Ricke's even have a course on their own property that I hear is very nice. They're hosting an event there in August. If you haven't met these fellas, try and track them down at league and pick their brains.

There's obviously a huuuuuuge pool of potential female players at FSU. It seems that you've got the excitement needed to put something together even if you're not a "pro" player. I'd recommend pitching the sorority system and student rec center on putting on a ladies disc golf clinic. The clinic could be an hour or so of instruction, lunch, and a round of team best shot and come with a sweet players package. Charge $30 or so. Aside from the local club, Sun King Discs, and Gateway South are great sponsorship sources.

There are a handful of Florida female pros that you could try to get for instructors, Mobiles gotta have some, the scene in Pensacola is exploding, and you could even think big and try to get some of the ladies that are coming for the Players Cup to make a stop in Talle on their way in/out.

The sorority angle is a great pitch if you incorporate a local charity angle. You could also pitch it for next year's Greek Games.

There are a lot of resources that you can utilize. If you've got the passion and follow-through big things can happen.

Feel free to drop me a PM if you'd like to bounce some ideas.

CHulsey
Jul 16 2007, 01:31 PM
Courtney:

Tallahassee's a growing scene for disc golf. Great to hear that you're excited about the sport. There are a bunch of quality people playing regularly out your way. The Ricke family, Mark Gill, Laymon Gray, and Grant Beck are all very friendly and encouraging of new people. The Ricke's even have a course on their own property that I hear is very nice. They're hosting an event there in August. If you haven't met these fellas, try and track them down at league and pick their brains.



I play with Mark Gill and David Ricke almost every Saturday! They are part of the reason I have continued to play regularly in Tallahassee. I played with Layman once, and it was awesome! I know that Marc has Pro Worlds on his plate right now, so I'm trying to wait to pick his brain! ;)

I graduated from FSU and never really though about pitching it to the Greek Life! That is a really good idea. I have a few resources in that venue I can use...and will do so.

Hopefully during the beginning of next year, I'll host an Amateur only tournament through Gateway disc Sports. I'll be Contacting David McCormick soon to get that set up.

Thank you for your suggestions...I WILL use them!

valkhere
Jul 16 2007, 02:12 PM
Courtney - I am positive, if your guys are as supportive as ours, they are going to be MORE than willing to help you set something up and promote your women's league. After all, what guy doesn't want to see women on the course? :) I really hope it works out for you and let me know how it goes! Once you meet more women out there find out what their schedules are like too, and then find the day that most of you can play together! We play on Monday nights just cuz that is when most of us could play when we started and if they can't show up one week, it's no big deal, they know where we'll be the next week. We are lucky to have 3 great courses in our area, as well as 2 private courses, JBird's and Jonna's (one of our league girls). So we even rotate the courses weekly!

CHulsey
Jul 16 2007, 02:15 PM
Thank for the encouragement

SarahD
Jul 17 2007, 10:24 AM
Question for the women out there. For a tournament, what would be more important to you: knowing that the club/TD is allocating $$ toward increasing the middle/low end of the women's field by subsidizing entry fees for women with low to no REC (reasonable expectation to cash), or donating that same money to a charity? Would it depend on the amount of money in question? Would it depend on the size and nature of the women's field before the event? Would it depend on the charity?

Oh geez, please don't take this as me being aggressive or controversial because anytime someone mentions charities and is not 100% fanatical about giving to them, people think it's monstrous. This is only a question, okay, in no way a reflection of my personal views or a judgment on the way things are currently run, so please don't attack me in a personal manner!

CHulsey
Jul 17 2007, 10:37 AM
I think for me it would depend. I would really like to see more women playing, and if they new that the club/TD really wanted to see them play - I would like to see lower fees. On the flip side of the disc - I am all for charities.

if the sole purpose of the tournament is to raise funds for a specific charity - by all means donate the money. But if the charity is not the main focus for the event, part of me would almost rather women play with reduced entry fees ESPECIALLY in the recreational and intermediate divisions - where there is no way to cash. If it is an all AM event...the purpose is to get new players to play - and to reward them for their efforts and hopefully get them to keep playing!

Good questions!

discette
Jul 17 2007, 11:28 AM
Speaking as a Pro:
If the event was in my area, I would not care as much about the size of the payouts or how deep the field was paid. However, if I am going to travel and pay for lodging and travel expenses, I would like the field to be paid deeper to increase my odds of cashing. Discounting entry fees is a great idea assuming payouts are calculated as if full entry was collected. This could entice me to travel, but not as much as deep payouts.

I don't mind events that support a charity, but for an NT or A-Tier event I would think the money for the charity would ideally be raised through sponsorship instead of player entry fees. For C-tiers or non-sanctioned events, I think the bulk of entry fees going to charity is fine. Just a player's pack and/or a small payout is acceptable.

I think Am women players should always pay low entry fees and the non-advanced women's divisions should pay all competitors.

I was told that NT events must use the 40% payout table but I can find no documents supporting this statement.

marshief
Jul 17 2007, 01:37 PM
All efforts take time and work.
I have to ask the questions as i haven't the knowlege to accomplish your goals or mine without them.
I am sorry but i don't have time to read around the board, i am self-employed and busy. I know this sounds like an excuse, but i have 2 women who help me with my research! My wife and my best friends wife. so maybe i will have her look around for me.


The easiest place to start is the thread that Sarah DeMar recently started titled "Money, Planning and Women" It really doesn't take a whole lot of time/effort to find a few of the salient threads and get the gist of the posts. I am happy to point you to some other threads if you'd like.


I don't know cheryl from the WDGA but I believe shes trying and in the right place and frame of mind. Heck some people might question my motives as I am a guy?
I disagree that the PDGA has a better chance then the WDGA of accomplishing a better womens disc golf environment. I joined and quit the PDGA 5 years ago because they didn't seem to care (TO ME) about AM's in the PDGA, i still think they don't see AM's properly (Hence the PDGA Professional DGA). DO YOU THINK THIS IS ANY BETTER FOR WOMEN? Are you a Women PRO? Maybe that is why you wish to pursue the PDGA route, i think the PDGA might be the vehicle for women in the future but not now. Lorrie Gibson was fantastic to me for what i was trying to do and so has Julianna Korver been (Please forgive me if i misspelled either name please), Lorrie is gone and I have been begging Julianna to come back to my course, this doesn't mean she doesn't support disc golf, perhaps that she doesn't like the courses we have up here. I firmly believe that both of these ladies are 110% behind women's disc golf.


I've never met Cheryl myself, but I have visited the WDGA website several times and even had her as a myspace friend for a while (until I got annoyed with the # of bulletins she posted). My impression has been that the WDGA is not an organization that I can support, but that is for private conversation.

Lorrie Gibson is awesome. She was very supportive of women to the extent possible with her role in the PDGA. I am sure Addie Isbel will keep up the same attitude. I've never met Juliana so I can't say anything about her. However, I have hung out quite a bit with Des Reading, and I believe that she is one of the best possible things for women in disc golf. She is very supportive of women of all skill levels, gives her time for women's clinics, etc., gives her time to EDGE to promote disc golf as an activity for children, and of course always has one of the biggest smiles and best attitudes on the course.


I see the disc-diva website as geared towards women's disc golf and supporting it. But Huk?, they flatly turned me down even for stickers for my event!!!!


My point about Huk Lab is that they have a full line of their clothes geared towards women. I've met Jay Harbour and spoken with him a bunch at our A tier last year. He's supportive of women in disc golf. He even donated several shirts to boost the am women's payout at our tournament. I don't know what to tell you about them denying sponsorship other than keep asking year after year and you're bound to get something eventually. Kathy Hardyman (disc-diva) may be willing to help out with sponsorship if you ask for a specific women's donation, but I am not sure. All you have to do is ask.


I have approached every major disc manufacturer and except for QUEST, got no positive response, NOW i know i am nobody running a nobody event at the moment, but who do you think i am going to remember when my event is running at the 'A' tier payout level? Quest! I don't ever want to be an 'A' Tier as that would not allow me to have non-PDGA members as players! THAT IS WHERE THE PDGA HAS GONE WRONG, in my opinion!!!!!


Again, don't know what to tell you. I don't know anything about your event. However, I do know that Steve Dodge wrote a proposal a while ago for a TD package sent to every TD of a PDGA event. It would include sponsorship items, such as the MSDGC DVD for example, that could be used as prizes. I don't remember what happened with it, but I'm pretty sure it was shot down. You may want to ask him about it.


I don't know what you want me to say to your 2-year crusade. Sorry that might sound harsh. I think I/We have been searching for what you did. I don't know you or your efforts, maybe the USWDGC made it easier for me i don't know. But if you want to help I would think you would want to share that knowledge you learned to get where you are.


It wasn't a 2 year crusade. It was more like a few months of going strong and then just giving up. There are probably still posts around here from when I started asking questions, but hten again maybe not because I was a victim of one of the message board crashes. I still have a slew of emails that went around the women's email listserv around that time too, which I'd be happy to forward to anyone who wants to take the time to read through them. I guess what I learned is that I just needed to start playing and get experience under my belt so that people in the PDGA would take me seriously. And I thought that as a new woman player I was who they were trying to cater to?


I have been fighting a battle of my own for my vision. I bring in $6200.00 in sponsorship and 22 ladies play, i give it all away to them. My 2nd year i am hoping for 44 players and hoping for that same level of payouts, yet sill i meet resistance!
What am I to do? find the sponsors or meet that resistance. I suspect the Old-Timers are resistant to the possibility of women getting better payouts then them? LOL or maybe not.


Not sure what all of that's about, but think about the time and effort required for travel. I'm not sure how to look up the statistics, but I'd bet that less than 5% of the PDGA men tour. If you then consider that women make up less than 20% of the PDGA, and apply that same statistic to women touring, then you probably get a number close to 10 women that "tour." It's not just about offering a great event, it's more about getting the women playing who have the means to attend all of these events. For example, I'd love to play USWDGC, but I don't have the time nor the money, and I haven't for the 3 years I've been playing competitive disc golf. However, i play as many local tournaments as possible.

I think what I've realized over the past two years of observing women in disc golf is that we need to not worry so much about merely getting more women to play. We may have a more salient issue in trying to figure out why the women who QUIT PLAYING did so. I see so many of them. Look at the turnover of women in the same tournament over the past few years, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Of course you also get women moving, like me from NC to CO. I wonder what % of inactive PDGA numbers are women?

cyferban
Jul 17 2007, 04:53 PM
The payout percentage (# of players) minimum requirements are in the sanctioning agreement between the club/TD and the PDGA. Just so you know. You are basically required to pay 40% of the field minimum which makes for some very flat payouts. You can pay more of the players but that just further flattens the payouts. the PDGA spreadsheet has 3 payout percentages 40%, 45% & 50%. If you use it to calculate the payouts.
I hope this answers your question regarding minimum field payouts (# of players).

SarahD
Jul 18 2007, 09:48 AM
Good call, Marsha, on focusing on why women quit playing disc golf tournaments instead of focusing on recruiting newbies. That's the crux, isn't it, since this weekend I'll technically be one of those women?

valkhere
Jul 18 2007, 09:24 PM
I will speak up for Cheryl with the WDGA. She started the intent of the WDGA to unite women disc golfers from all over. For a tiny fee of $10 for a 2 year membership you at least get a decent membership package! Every cent ever spent on the WDGA has come out of her pocket. Cheryl, I love you, but yes she can send a lot of stuff, messages, myspace bulletins, comments.....but it's only because she wants people to notice. I have been a huge part of the WDGA and try to keep it going and let all the girls know about it. Yes currently pretty much all the WDGA has is a message board, but the more women on the message board over there, the more we can also discuss where we play. Most of the girls on that board are Am's, but man they get chatting and get together and plan where they are going and who they are playing with. (I should say on the old board was the most conversations...the new board hasn't had everyone back yet) I've met, not in person yet, but tons of great girls over there on that board. I met Carrie Neil from Canada at Peoria last year, I chatted with her tons on the WDGA board. Cheryl also just had the 2nd annual WDGA tournament. She is trying so hard for this, and without all of our support for her, it's a tough job for one person to do.

michellewade
Jul 18 2007, 09:36 PM
Most of my friends have stopped competing (not playing) due to starting families. It's almost like the women have to choose between being a mom or being a traveling pro and the mom part seems to win out. I think a few more dropped out due to injuries that come with aging.. but mostly they quit to start families.

Back when that site was first put up, I tried to sign up and log onto it but it turned out to be a HUGE pain in the tushy so I gave up. That's my $0.02 worth.

CHulsey
Jul 19 2007, 08:59 AM
I have chatted with Cheryl several times via email...and she is really trying to aid women in disc golf - but like Erin said...it is hard for one person to do. But I can say this, I will do my best to make it to the "3rd annual WDGA tournament." I kinda like the fact that those on the message board are primarily AMs (no offence Pros) but being an AM myself - it is nice to chat with others in the same boat your in.

I don't think that it is PDGA women's committee vs. WDGA vs whoever. We are all trying to increase women's awareness and participation; whether in competition or recreational or health and fitness. We are only as strong as our weakest link. Don't discount the weakest one, strive to make it stronger!

valkhere
Jul 19 2007, 09:21 AM
Back when that site was first put up, I tried to sign up and log onto it but it turned out to be a HUGE pain in the tushy so I gave up. That's my $0.02 worth.



I totally agree the site can be a pain in the butt, as far as the message board goes...however Cheryl was already putting money into the organization from her pocket and was trying to use a free message board and any technical problems weren't her fault. There is a new message board she has set up.... http://cherylal.proboards102.com/index.cgi if you are interested.

michellewade
Jul 20 2007, 04:26 PM
Question for the women out there. For a tournament, what would be more important to you: knowing that the club/TD is allocating $$ toward increasing the middle/low end of the women's field by subsidizing entry fees for women with low to no REC (reasonable expectation to cash), or donating that same money to a charity? Would it depend on the amount of money in question? Would it depend on the size and nature of the women's field before the event? Would it depend on the charity?





Honestly, I've never played a tournament due to any of those factors. My factors are can I drive there or would I have to fly? Can I find a place to stay for free or do I need a hotel? It's usually about how much time and money I have to basically throw away (mainly because I've been in retirement for most of '07) and not about what I can expect to receive. Even back in the 90's when I was good and winning a lot, the size of the field and the size of the pot were not a factor at all. I play because I enjoy the game and I enjoy the people I've gotten to know over the past 20 years. I've signed up for an event about 150 miles away from me because 1) the entry is reasonable and 2) I've been hooked up with a place to stay. Towards the end of last year, So Cal's entry fees were outrageous (ranging from $40 - $120) with the most being in the $70-$80 range. I was injured all of '06 and donated a whole lot of time, money and energy - for the love of the game. This year I decided to get out of debt and buy a property. Now that I've done that and my arm is better after a 9-month rest, I'm ready to get back out and play and where I go will all depend on the factors named above.

Keep on Truckin!! :D

CHulsey
Aug 01 2007, 08:41 AM
Ladies...where are you all located?

CHulsey
Oct 08 2007, 12:27 PM
So, I've been doing some brief thinking about Women's disc Golf. With our Ladies league - my best friend has been taking pictures for us. My brother will take pictures at the Orlando Open in 2 weeks - and I'm going to ask him if He will give some extra time to the women's division.

do any of you know of friends or family who maybe enjoy taking pictures or who want to hang out with you but not to 'play' disc golf - who would be willing to take pictures at tournaments or ladies leagues/groups? The majority of pictures are of the men's field - partly because they are the largest group. I would like to see people at the tournaments taking (more) pictures of the ladies.

What do you think?

shortchic
Oct 10 2007, 06:52 PM
I'm probably going to get a lot of crap for some of my opinions but oh well. I think the money has a lot to do with why women aren't playing however, that has nothing to do with the AM turn out at tourneys. There are far more AM players than pro. Having said that, if you look at the tourney entries there are a lot more women signing up so I think time is all it takes. Personally, I am offended at the "need" to have pink discs and what not. That is BS. Having disc golf clothes isn't necessary either to get more women involved. Here goes; what we need, is less AM and Pro women being catty and rude on the golf course and scaring off many of the women competing. I can't tell you how many times I've heard, "I am never playing a tournament again. It's not fun and the girls are rude". Honestly, it's sad that this is the kind of thing that happens at a good majority of the tournaments. What we need is more women to be gracious and welcoming with out losing the competitive fire that makes tournaments fun. Juliana is a great example of this type of attitude.

Anyhow, I do everything I can to get more women involved and I can tell you, it's going to take a lot more than pink discs.

CHulsey
Oct 11 2007, 09:35 AM
Shortchic - I will say this, when I started this post my purpose was not to 'offend' anyone in anyway. My questions about disc color and clothing was simply that...a question. Some women relish things that they can call their own, things that were meant only for them. I love the sport, and when I play...I play hard - however, If a TD or participating sponsor that had discs and clothes that were made ONLY for women - I would feel honored. When a pro gives me a lighter disc because he knows that I am building my arm...that is something he gave to me with a purpose...those things help keep me playing - even when I'm the only women in my division, or in the tournament - because people are interested in keeping me playing.

Do i play because I look pretty in pink with my matching disc...no, or that my discs accessorize nicely with my bag...no. But if having something designed with ladies in mind helps new comers feel important - then I will stock fun colored, ultralight discs, and try whatever I can to keep them playing.

HOWEVER - I do think that you're right about women's attitude (or players in general) on the course. I've not personally experienced it, but I'm sure that has been a turn off for many women to continue. I'm glad that you joined this post. It is nice to see other women involved - what makes a tournament for you?

shortchic
Oct 11 2007, 01:01 PM
I think I was slightly misunderstood. I was not offended at your post. Simply giving my opinion toward what I believe most men think we want. Totally not offended by you, in fact, grateful that someone is asking the question.

What makes a tournament for me is simply, professionalism. I'm not going to point the finger at anyone so I won't say what event this happened at but if you were there, you know. There was not one single restroom anywhere near the course we were playing. I played an entire round needing to go, and had to hold it. On top of that, it was seriously hot, and I was not about to drink water and make things worse. There were people everywhere you turned so running off into the woods was not an option. The best Tournaments I have played have been in Oregon. It's a totally different class up there.

Anyhow, again, so not offended by your post. I just wanted to state that for me, I am not a fan of tournament directors making an assumption about what, "the girls" want. It's almost like they would prefer to not have us there sometimes. As for my statement about the attitudes of some women, it's completely true. I still maintain that is why we have seen the numbers drop.

Thanks!

CHulsey
Oct 11 2007, 01:23 PM
Shortchic - I've not had the privalege of going to an all ladies tournament yet, have you? If so, what are things that they have that other tournaments don't.

I totally understand about the bathroom thing. Although, the girls that i've met seem to have NO problem using the woods. I just can't do that :(

There is a part of me that would like to see more 1 day fun events for women - we don't have many of those in Florida, in fact, I don't think I've seen ANY.

PS. I just gandered at your discraft profile - quite impressive! Just thought I'd say that! :)

marshief
Oct 11 2007, 02:07 PM
I have a feeling most women will agree that pink discs and pink golf bags are not what keep us playing. I also think most women will agree that the catty bull poo needs to stay off of the course. When I first moved to Colorado, after my first tournament here I swore I would never play a tournament in Colorado again. That was because of two women, who I later discovered only play that tournament and Women's Nationals every year. I'm safe at any other tournament :)

The PDGA women's committee developed a survey last year that never really went out. I have a copy of it and started looking into getting it posted online somehow, but just about every site I found for online surveys charges for more than like 20 responses. I need to contact probably Addie again to see if the PDGA will pay to have it up online or if there's a way to do it so that I don't have to shell out more money from my precious grad student salary :) If we can get that survey up online and get a good response and idea of what women expect and like, then I think we may actually be able to get somewhere with women's disc golf...

shortchic
Oct 11 2007, 04:38 PM
Yep, I can't use the woods either! I haven't played any womens only events. I think mainly because I am allergic to being surrounded by that many women. I have just always gotten along better with guys. I played every sport under the sun on mens teams the majority of my life. So, it is still difficult for me to attend an all womens anything. Not to mention I went to an all girls school in high school. I have had my fill. Having said that, I would still like to attend an all womens event. I have avoided USWDGC just because in never quite fits in my schedule. If it were to move closer to me one of the years, I'll be there. I think one day tournaments are really fun. If there were more closer to me, I would play in them. I have had to play in the advanced am mens and open mens divisions a bit this year just due to the lack of open womens field. Anyhow, thanks for the compliment! I've really tried to play well this last year and I have had my moments, but my consistency is all over the map!

On a side note, I think those surveys could definitely help. I think there would be some really key answers that may shed some light on very minor things that could be done to make our field better.

cyferban
Oct 12 2007, 03:20 AM
My thought is the Peoria event was a great event for women only. My wife and best friends wife attended it last year. I don't know what it will be like with the move but it can be a big event.

I think having items that ladies can appreciate is important but having professional acting PRO's to make the experience better for the AM ladies is a huge plus.

I started an event last year in MI., for women only with only 22 ladies making the trip, 43 this year. i hope to hit 60 AM's and 10 PRO's in 2008. But please i try to push the experience not the competition, sure there are ladies who show up to win but i give away alot of stuff. "C" tier with players packs and lots and lots of stuff.

Think about coming to MI., next year and have some fun. watch the PDGA schedule for this event.
The 3rd Annual Michigan Women's Championship (Femillz Open)

Sorry couldn't resist the plug there, talk to some of the ladies who attended i believe they will tell you i give away a lot of stuff.

I have found that playing disc golf with ladies is always so much more relaxing!!!! whenever i go to tournaments i always volunteer to play in a group with the ladies for any reason, because its more relaxing for me and I have developed a relationship with a lot of the regional ladies here. We aren't competing and i don't care if a lady kicks my bu**. I like playing but i prefer running events and the Femillz event is my event.

SarahD
Oct 12 2007, 10:00 AM
Hey, welcome to Discraft, Kathy! That's awesome, congrats! I just picked up some hot-off-the-press FLX SS Avengers yesterday - you throw SS's? They are SO nice and it's getting colder in Michigan so the FLX plastic is going to come in handy soon.

I think the appeal of women's only tourneys is the bigger fields they garner. I went to USWDGC this year and it was so so so nice having over 25 women in the Pro Division! It made for a lot of movement around cards - getting to play with new women almost every round - and it was much less of a "This event is me versus you" mentality and more of a "Every stroke counts in me versus the field". Very cool and the Peoria staff are second to none in terms of enthusiasm for women in DG and organization. Plus it was great knowing that even though the superpro girls were all there, there was still another 8 cashing spots to compete for, which really boosts a girl's expectation and overall anticipation.

I was surprised, however, at the increased drama at women's Nats. One women seems to be spurning me in person for my thoughts posted on the message board....my hellos garnered no reply which surprised me. Before the tourney I tried calling another woman from my area for a potential ride and when she didn't call me back in a few days I called her boyfriend to see if she was with him or if he knew how she was getting to Peoria. She wasn't around so we had a five minute chat about a disastrous experience he had. A few days later I saw her at the tourney and expressed sympathy to her about what her man went through and she became infuriated and thought I was trying to work her for rubbing any friendship I have/had with him in her face (???) and I got a nasty message on my voicemail never to talk to either one of them again. Now I have to face the knowledge that every local event I go to my competition will be silent and hostile and it will be very uncomfortable. THAT SUCKS!!!!

Men don't pull this kind of thing. Why do women have to create drama like this????

shortchic
Oct 12 2007, 12:52 PM
Man! I am so sorry that happened to you. I think this is part of the allergy I have to women. Obviously, you and I are a little different breed. We don't roll with the dramatic. I can't stand that sort of thing. Why does everything have to be so stinkin' personal? Anyhow, I agree with you about the size of the field advantages. I love playing worlds for that reason. Here in Norcal there is only 4 pro women. For all 4 of us to show up at an event is a miracle. Mainly because I live 2 hours from one competitor and about 3-4 from the other 2. California is a big state so it's hard to get to some of the tournaments. It's actually easier for me to go to Oregon than most cali events.

I am all in favor of more tourney's with a large womens field. The movement and chance to play with some new faces is awesome. For all those girls reading this right now that have a flare for the dramatic, leave it off the course.

marshief
Oct 12 2007, 06:23 PM
You know, I think this brings up a very good point and discussion of why a lot of women quit playing. If a female has a bad experience and even one other woman stops talking to her, then it's a much worse situation that with the guys. This is mostly because the women's fields are so much smaller. For me, if there's one person who makes rounds uncomfortable, I am stuck with them all 4 rounds of the weekend. For the guys, they MAY get stuck with that person one or two rounds, and for that they can deal because a round doesn't make the whole weekend.

So what's the response? Grow the women's field, which we all already support and are doing our best to achieve. (Problem though is that I think we've pretty much tapped the market of women who can't stand women :D) And on top of the simple goal of growing the women's field, perhaps we need to emphasize sportsmanship and the fact that there's a difference between what's appropriate on the course and off?

ck34
Oct 12 2007, 06:43 PM
What's weird is that some women are saying they can't get along with other women and at the same time want their own divisions? For those who wish to dodge playing with certain women, you have the option to play in an appropriate skill mens division. If that's a more comfortable environment, then why don't more women do it?

bruce_brakel
Oct 13 2007, 10:20 AM
Because

They

Are

Women.

valkhere
Oct 14 2007, 08:53 AM
What's weird is that some women are saying they can't get along with other women and at the same time want their own divisions? For those who wish to dodge playing with certain women, you have the option to play in an appropriate skill mens division. If that's a more comfortable environment, then why don't more women do it?



Most women are intimidated by men at tournaments....at least I was when I was an AM. So I'm sure that is a reason more women don't play in the men's divisions. However, the last year I played AM women, I decided to play a series in Detroit with the Am3 Men, and I ended up winning the series. That was a huge boost of confidence considering a few of those boys are Pro's now and I can't even compete with them. But, most women, with a couple exceptions, don't like to play with they guys. I run a local women's league and most of my league girls won't play any tournaments for that fact. A lot of them played our women's only tournament, but only because it was women's only.

From what else I've read on this thread is totally true, the drama out there is enough to make anyone quit. In my 7 1/2 years of playing....man i've seen drama in those women's fields....cheaters...who to this day still cheat...boy drama....friends drama....sister drama....it's all there. And I must say I do heart drama! But it is agreed to leave it off the course!

shortchic
Oct 15 2007, 07:35 PM
I play in the men's field a lot as I mentioned in a previous post. I'm okay with doing that occasionally but I won an event with quite a few men signed up 2 years ago. My rating was such that I could play Intermediate. I played really well and won. To this day, I catch a lot of grief about this from the guys. Some think it's pretty cool, but most, hate me for it. That almost makes me enjoy playing, well beating, the men even more.

Gregg
Oct 16 2007, 07:13 AM
I KNOW THERE ARE MORE FANS OF KATHY MANLY then there are haters, and most of the haters, are the guys you beat that weekend!!!!!!!!

hahaha, can someone go as far as saying Kathy is truly DISC GOLF ELITE!!!!!!!!!!!

OH YEAH!!!!!

valkhere
Oct 16 2007, 09:42 AM
Congrats on winning the Int division! That's awesome :) I know the feeling of beating the boys! It's great...hehe

SarahD
Oct 16 2007, 10:04 AM
What's weird is that some women are saying they can't get along with other women and at the same time want their own divisions? For those who wish to dodge playing with certain women, you have the option to play in an appropriate skill mens division. If that's a more comfortable environment, then why don't more women do it?



Hey, let us play the Am Men for cash instead of plastic and we'll be all set. At this point, I'd rather play in my own division for nothing to keep my cash in my pocket instead of having to go through the trouble of converting the plastic I win back into the cash I originally had.

So can we have a big division like Men's Am 2 and still get cash? After all, we're pros and pros play for cash. Please oh please, Chuck????

ck34
Oct 16 2007, 10:27 AM
No women played the Mid-Nats where they had the opportunity. I'm OK with extending the policy to other events for pros playing in am to take their merch prizes at 50% conversion to cash but haven't made any progress with the Competition Committee on that. As a GM Pro with small or non-existent divisions at local events, I'd like the same opportunity as you're requesting.

The fact that our "pros" earn their winnings from other players in their division at lower tier events undermines any illusion that we are like pros in other high income sports who are being paid by income from spectators and outside sponsors. Both men and women pros in our sport only come close to being pros at higher tier events with significant sponsorship beyond entry fees. At lower tier events, we're all weekend warriors like the rest of the ams.

brhoderick
Oct 16 2007, 01:35 PM
I must chime in on this subject...been reading for awhile and not publicly saying anything but have decided to be brave and speak my mind. I too have hit rock bottom with drama in some of the women's divison in my area...and due to that I decided to move up even though my rating would suggest I should stay in the AM division I have decided NOT to. I need more plastic like i need a hole in the head (hence why playing with the boys in AM divisdions is NOT at all interesting to me) for cash...well then maybe, but it will be a cold day in _______ when that happens. So this year after finally being disgusted with the way I was treated and how others were treated I pulled out of a torney (1st time) I had ever done that, but the idea of having to go back and play with some people was SO totally not worth it to me........that's when I said fine move up and see how the Pro ladies are. Luckily my response from them so far has been great and very supportive. I am a realist and know that people are people and drama happens EVERYWHERE. But I believe that stepping up has made me a better person. I am very competive and sure I like to win, but for now i'll donate and get experience and for the most part I am okay with that. I encourage every woman I meet on my local courses to come and play in events. I am usually always kind and say hello to EVERYONE. So that's my part in trying to help women. I appreciate the Pro women who have supported and encourage me to move up. I can't thank them enough. I played in the Yetter again this year as a Pro because of the reduced cost of entering and loved the experience that I had. I got to play with Sarah, which is always fun. Played with Des and Val and that was a learning experience in a GREAT way. So all in all I am happy about moving up, just have to be choosy about the events and the entrance fees. But hey that's a whole other topic. I appreciate the honesty ladies that have responded on this thread. :D:D

ck34
Oct 16 2007, 01:43 PM
Encourage TDs to allow you to enter at the reduced entry fee to play for Trophy Only. There is usually a much wider range of skill levels within any women's division and having Trophy Only as an option would make the learning experience less painful in the pocketbook

brhoderick
Oct 17 2007, 02:58 PM
Are you slightly crazy??? LOL just kidding.. I am not interested in that...oh yeah a trophy is a HUGE motivator N O T

ck34
Oct 17 2007, 03:09 PM
If you truly can win the Trophy then by all means pay full entry fee since you can win the cash, too. However, why would you want to pay full entry fee if, as you say, you're just paying to learn in a field of women where you have little chance of cashing. At least learn for a lower price by paying the Trophy Only fee if the TD allows it.

craigramsdell
Oct 17 2007, 09:16 PM
Beth,
I hope you can still come down for the Am Crosstown. It will be our 25th. Good stuff planned...

Craig

brhoderick
Oct 18 2007, 10:42 AM
Women in disc golf making requests of TD's to offer trophy only divisions....we need that like a hole in the head.....like I said No thanks......I wasn't complaining about having to pay more just that I will be more selective. And trust me I am totally okay with that.

Craig...no I won't be down for the Am Crosstown . I am one of those strict believers in if you move up STAY UP...no backsliding unless you are injured or something. The flip flopping in divisions is enough to make me just a little bit crazy. Personally it's an abuse of the system, but hey that's WAY off topic. AM Crosstown has always been MY FAVORITE!!! You guys in NC know how to run them...So now I'll go to the Captain's tourney and still get to come to Raleigh. I thank you Craig for your kindness as always :D

craigramsdell
Oct 18 2007, 11:03 AM
:(
Oh well. Beth, your job now is send the NextGen of MD. women down here. Many for the local ladies are getting better and better.

Since you've enjoyed the Crosstown let the others know. We' ld love to host a big crowd women.

Craig

ck34
Oct 18 2007, 11:04 AM
Women in disc golf making requests of TD's to offer trophy only divisions



Just to be clear you understand. It's not a separate division, just a reduced entry fee in the same Pro Women division. In Illinois, the IOS series allows Am women to enter the Pro Women division at a much lower price to play with pro Barret. Barret always wins but the Am women get the chance to play with a top pro without paying full price for the experience.

valkhere
Oct 18 2007, 11:33 AM
But Pro's shouldn't be allowed to pay the lower entry fee for Trophy only, as I thought Beth posted earlier, she is playing Pro now. So that wouldn't be an option anyway right?

ck34
Oct 18 2007, 11:48 AM
If Trophy Only is allowed in a division, ams or pros can use it. All of the math is built into the PDGA payout system to handle it. As a GM Pro, I entered Open as Trophy Only one event last year when there weren't any GM or Master Pros at the event. We've used Trophy Only for years in Minnesota in several divisions. It has boosted the size of the Open divisions without being financially stressing for the players who either couldn't afford to play at full price or were not yet competitive in Open and wanted to learn from the pros.

It has especially worked well for top Ams who didn't want to "bag" in Advanced during the six months before Am Worlds but weren't allowed to play for money in Open and lose their am status. They would play Trophy Only in Open to help improve their game. Now that Ams can win merch in pro divisions, I think you'll see more am men and women playing occasionally trying pro in 2008.

valkhere
Oct 18 2007, 12:43 PM
Interesting.....my opinion is...you move up to Pro for a reason. I don't agree with the Pro's being able to pay the trophy only fee. Just doesn't seem right to me. But then again that's my opinion, I'm sure not everyone elses.

valkhere
Oct 18 2007, 12:45 PM
Maybe that's another reason that deters women from playing too. We all agree that we want bigger fields, but is it even worth it if one is paying the entry fee and the rest are playing for trophy only. For those that play for the money, I think it would make them not go to those events, then you just get a bunch of Am Women, in the Pro field, playing for just a trophy....does that make sense?

tbender
Oct 18 2007, 01:05 PM
It adds to the purse without adding competition for the purse.

ck34
Oct 18 2007, 01:29 PM
I think the point is bigger fields. Barrett would be winning her entry fee back without the T.O. option. She wins more with the handful of T.O. players since there's additional money in the purse even from the reduced fees. If the decision for a player is to either not play because they don't want to pay the higher fee with no chance of cashing versus play at a lower T.O. entry fee, which option is better to get more women together?

valkhere
Oct 18 2007, 01:43 PM
I see your points too. It does create a bigger field which is most of the problems. I agree with both sides, but I think if someone moves up to pro, they should be playing Pro because they are good. Not just to add $10 more to the purse.

discette
Oct 18 2007, 02:41 PM
Trophy only is a current option designed mainly for Ams. It gives players who may or may not be ready to go pro the chance to try the pro division out with a lower entry fee. It was not really designed for players that are already Pros and have accepted cash. (Although if you're low on cash and still want to compete, you have that option.) Maybe if a top Am player can see they are competitive in the pro division, they will step up and be willing to pay the full entry fee to play for cash.

shortchic
Oct 18 2007, 02:56 PM
Oh man, I am totally going to hear for this I'm sure but I have pretty much always been anti division. There should be pro and am. That's it. If you are a low grade pro, you won't be for long. Then you get to talk about the days when you played event after event and didn't cash, but now you are so much better for it. The standards between pro and am events are completely different and if there were only 2 divisions and events were held together more, there would be more professionalism enforces, hopefully. Payouts would be better too. True the field would be limited but oh well, guess that means you need to be more responsible about getting your entry in.

ck34
Oct 18 2007, 02:56 PM
I agree with both sides, but I think if someone moves up to pro, they should be playing Pro because they are good. Not just to add $10 more to the purse.




I don't disagree. But the range of player ratings among those who are registered as Pro Women goes from the top women around 960 down to less than 800. From a practical standpoint, only women over 899 realistically can cash at the highest levels (unless playing in an older divison) if payout goes to half or less of the field. So, it shouldn't be surprising if a woman pro from some region with a rating more than 50 pts below the ones who have entered might prefer the T.O. option if available when playing out of her region where maybe she IS the only pro woman.

brhoderick
Oct 18 2007, 04:44 PM
Valk THANKS I knew someone understood what I was saying :D

valkhere
Oct 19 2007, 09:21 AM
:)

Now back to the thing about the already Pro Women paying $10 to play trophy only....they shouldn't move up to Pro if they are just going to pay the $10. I'm sorry, not trying to start any arguments, but if you move up to play Pro, you're good enough to pay the full entry. I think the $10 trophy option should be for ams only.

ck34
Oct 19 2007, 10:52 AM
If the guidelines were the same for turning pro across the world, then it certainly makes sense. However, the ranks of women is still thin. The level necessary to be a Pro in Michigan is higher than many other areas. There are places where the only woman might have an 835 rating, well below the "normal" rating near 900 to turn pro. If she is mostly playing with herself or other women with ratings in the 700s, it's logical for her to become a pro so at least she gets her money back, doesn't just accumulate merch and also dominate the other women under 800. She rarely travels but is taking a trip. But it's apparent that her "pro level" might not even be competitive in Adv Women where she's headed. So, the T.O. option might encourage her to play pro in the event rather than donate or not play.

ValkHerE, you are correct that once someone turns pro, they shouldn't have the T.O. option in an ideal world. But until we actually have requirements to turn pro, we need more flexibility with our options to accommodate players in widely varying environments and keep them involved. We don't even have requirements yet for men to turn pro which has a much better defined rating level and 10 times as many players as women. The primary reason is not enough outside money in the sport yet to make it worthwhile to restrict pro access.

suemac
Oct 22 2007, 04:46 PM
As I read through this these recent posts regarding Trophy Only, it baffles me as to the reasons why some folks can't see the beauty and/or benefit of Trophy Only. When the advanced ladies don't have decent field, and the same holds true for the open girls, why not allow us a chance to play with you guys? We are willing to donate just for the opportunity to "play up" and potentially finish in the cash (without the cash), and everyone should walk away happy.

It seems like what I am reading here is crying about small fields, low participation and payout, and this is a option that lessens that problem. So what could be wrong with that?

I guess it would be better in your world to just not play an event. Cutting off your nose to spite your face if you ask me.

Once again, I am glad I live in Texas. ;)

valkhere
Oct 23 2007, 09:43 AM
I hope I didn't make it sound like I was against the ams playing up to pro for a trophy only. I think it was the thought of a Pro player who just assumes they aren't going to cash will pay the $10 trophy only fee. But it was also pointed out that the Pro's who don't play often or come out to play and haven't played in a while, could do that. I see both sides of it :)

SarahD
Oct 23 2007, 10:12 AM
Why do TD's ever want anyone to play Pro at any of their tournaments? Last weekend was Mixed Doubles in Lansing and I snagged Sugar Schack as a partner and because Al can shoot 12 down at Fitz by himself, everyone else in the event played Am, which was the VERY BEST THING that could happen for the TD's up there. They were able to maximize profits by taking ALL the entry fee money and paying out merch to everyone except for the two of us to whom they kicked in a twenty spot apiece, for which I am grateful, of course.

My question is this: Although I am not against tournament directors (because without them we would not have events to go to), why wouldn't more people play pro to keep the cash circulating in the DG community instead of dumping it right into the club's pockets? It seems like if there was more unity amongst players we'd try to keep the cash in cash form and lots of people play up in order to create more cashing spots. Taking the Barrett example, sure she's going to win almost every local tourney she plays in, but if ALL the Am girls play pro then suddenly you've got 2nd place and 3rd place cashes for money instead of merch.

Converting plastic into cash is VERY difficult anywhere with so many people playing Am and winning it every weekend, so even sponsored players end up with dozens of discs they can't move. This is why I'll never play in the Am Men's divisions, never play Doubles unless there are Pro Mixed Doubles and generally try to avoid any situation where only merch is offered. If it were easier to move and reconvert back to cash, that would be another story.

Now there are a few TD's throwing Am-Only tournies. WHY WOULDN'T THEY? It's so much better for TD's financially.

suemac
Oct 23 2007, 03:36 PM
I hope I didn't make it sound like I was against the ams playing up to pro for a trophy only. I think it was the thought of a Pro player who just assumes they aren't going to cash will pay the $10 trophy only fee. But it was also pointed out that the Pro's who don't play often or come out to play and haven't played in a while, could do that. I see both sides of it :)



BTW generally TO option is about 1/2 full entry fee. NEVER SEEN ONE FOR $10 AROUND HERE.

This can be a very attractive option in many cases and should be explored more for the ladies. :cool:

suemac
Oct 23 2007, 03:41 PM
And it is sad if it's all about the money. There seems to be some ladies DRIVEN by the profit/loss side of events, what a disappointing position to take on such a great game.

discette
Oct 23 2007, 05:50 PM
why wouldn't more people play pro to keep the cash circulating in the DG community instead of dumping it right into the club's pockets?




I don't know the answer to the question, but perhaps some people think it is better to give back to the club rather than to take the money and run.


I always thought clubs WERE a part of the disc golf community. Money raised by a club is much more likely to stay in the DG community than if that money is paid to a pro. A pro can spend their winnings on rent, groceries, the cable bill or even beer: none of which actually benefit the DG community. A club generally spends money on upkeep/installation of local courses and other items that directly benefit the club members and/or the local DG community.

valkhere
Oct 23 2007, 09:34 PM
That's true. The Ams are what keep the clubs in business. Without most of the clubs there wouldn't be tournaments or kept up courses to play on. And to keep the Ams coming back, they need the merch payouts.

valkhere
Oct 23 2007, 09:36 PM
I played Am3 men Sunday because my partner is new to the disc golf and tournament world and I wanted him to have a chance at winning some plastic. Ams get excited winning plastic! :)

SarahD
Oct 24 2007, 10:55 AM
And it is sad if it's all about the money. There seems to be some ladies DRIVEN by the profit/loss side of events, what a disappointing position to take on such a great game.



Wow, Sue, it must be great to be made of money like you and never have to think about it. So tell me, Oh Bestower of Thinly-Veiled References, who am I disappointing with my position on profit/loss in disc golf?

Am I disappointing the other pro ladies in Michigan and the surrounding areas by showing up to nearly EVERY SINGLE event offered in my area, despite formidable travel costs?

Am I disappointing the clubs by playing Pro instead of Am and depriving them of the $2700 I would have otherwise paid them in entry fees over the 45 events I've played this year?

Or am I just disappointing you by not meeting your specific views of how everyone in the world should think, act and post?

Erin, I completely understand why you and said newbie partner played Am - it was completely logical in the situation. But when you say that Ams need the merch payouts to keep coming back.....well, that's where I wish the motivation were different. I wish that ams kept coming back with the motivation that they had to put the time in in the Am division in order to get to the Pro division - building a bigger Pro division, especially for women, is what I would wish for in the hearts of other people, but that's just my own selfish desire and I'd never condemn people for disagreeing with me.

The question remains unanswered: with all this plastic we're all winning or being allotted, how to move it and reconvert it back to cash instead of having it sit on basement shelves? Ebay is inefficient and time-consuming. With the DG community flooded with plastic, nobody is buying. So how to problem-solve?

suemac
Oct 24 2007, 11:43 AM
See, my husband was an avid ball golfer, and compared to money spent on that sport, well I guess I just operate from a different position.

Through my long life I've always been involved in sports that took a bit of cash to participate in. Dirt Track and Drag Racing and Sailing all cost money.

I just compare what I would have spent if I'd stayed home, or if I'd gone shopping for a bunch of frivilous shoes as an example and think that disc golf is cheap in comparison.

But as an Am, your blood and guts attitude is a bit hard to swallow. As I have never thought of this as anything more than fun entertainment that allows me to meet such great folks.

No harm intended, to each their own, and good luck in whatever you pursue.

discette
Oct 24 2007, 01:07 PM
Not all Pro women players are in the sport for the money. Many still play for the love of the game. The money is just a bonus for playing well. It is quite alright for players to be driven to win cash. Not everyone has lots of extra money to throw at a "hobby" with no chance to get some back. I don't think the top touring ladies would go on tour at all if they didn't have a chance to at least cover some of their expenses.

I think everyone here agrees that we all want to see more women playing, which in turn will lead to more Pro women playing. More women will mean more money, which is great, but more money is secondary to increasing field sizes across the board.


Please remember, whether you are an Am or a Pro, the number one rule is Disc Golf is to HAVE FUN!!

michellewade
Oct 24 2007, 07:13 PM
Not all Pro women players are in the sport for the money. Many still play for the love of the game.



I'm a perfect example of this! I played pro for 20 years and the last 2 years ('05 and '06) donated every entry fee of between $40 and $120 and won nothing back. Obviously I wasn't in it for the cash, and frankly never have been.


Not everyone has lots of extra money to throw at a "hobby" with no chance to get some back. I don't think the top touring ladies would go on tour at all if they didn't have a chance to at least cover some of their expenses.



Another situation that applies to me as well. Last year I had tendonitis and an ankle injury and also decided it was time to buy real estate. I went into retirement last October and used that fee I'd normally donate to Suzette or Tita or whomever and paid off credit cards. Now I have the property but the funds are still not there yet to be donating that much. So this year I'm playing AMS as I got tired of being DFL every tournament. It's not about the money and what there is to win, it's how my game went and honestly, whether or not I can beat Lil Crusher ;)

If I was in it for the money or prizes, I'd sign up for intermediate at So Cal Champs as I'm only rated 791 and so are those gals. Instead, I'm choosing to play with the advanced who are ALL rated higher than me, because I love playing with Lil Crusher and Laurie and Brittany. :D

In fact, I did win 2nd and a 3rd and got shirts that were too small for me so I gave them to LC and also discs that were too heavy for me to throw since I throw only 150 class.

The rest I suppose I'll put on eBay some day soon. But I'll continue to play where the fun is and where the entries fees are affordable enough for me to lose. I can't lose $80-$100 per month per tournament, but I can donate $35-$50 so that's why I'm playing where I'm playing.

But trust me, if they ever put in a course in Winnetka and I played every day like I used to and got good again, I'd go back to the pro divisions because I like the competition stress that is present mostly in PRO fields and not in AM fields.

I'm back playing because I missed throwing and I missed my friends and I missed getting some exercise on the weekends. For me, I think I'll always continue to play at some level and always support the PDGA b/c that's really all we have, for now.

But if I won the lotto, I'd quit my job and get a motor home and travel all summer and play every day and every NT tournament and in Japan and everywhere I could. I'd make the cover of the mags and make lots of money and....well, a girl can dream, can't she? :D

I'm sure none of this helps at all, huh? :confused:

valkhere
Oct 25 2007, 11:12 AM
I love your attitude and most of us should think that way! For the love of the sport! I am a very competitive person, yet I play more for fun than the money. Especially in Peoria... I had no expectation of cashing there and I happened to take last cash and was completely excited about that, however, I would have not minded not cashing cuz that is my favorite tournament of the year! And I think it was more exciting to see friends and meet new women!

suemac
Oct 25 2007, 01:05 PM
Anytime you can play with Megan is a good time! Let her know we look forward to her coming back to Texas soon.

Maybe for TWC this year!

Joy and laughter are my payoffs, so I hope to meet some of you in the future. Huntsville next year?

SarahD
Oct 25 2007, 03:31 PM
Don't you ever hesitate when using the word "should" in reference to how other people think?

SarahD
Oct 25 2007, 03:43 PM
If not, I've got some Orwell and Huxley you can read.

suemac
Oct 26 2007, 04:37 PM
Let's just agree to disagree.

Or better yet, I agree to disagree, how about you? ;)

michellewade
Oct 26 2007, 08:48 PM
I love your attitude and most of us should think that way! For the love of the sport! I am a very competitive person, yet I play more for fun than the money. Especially in Peoria... I had no expectation of cashing there and I happened to take last cash and was completely excited about that, however, I would have not minded not cashing cuz that is my favorite tournament of the year! And I think it was more exciting to see friends and meet new women!



Thanks. I feel like if I'm only playing for the money, then it's no longer fun but a JOB! I know a couple of guys who for years just played golf for a living. They were good enough to cash everywhere they went but I can't imagine thinking while I'm putting "Gosh, if I miss this putt, then I won't make rent." That would suck! Besides, my job pays better anyway :D

valkhere
Oct 29 2007, 04:14 PM
Hehe, you're right. It shouldn't have to feel like a job. However if I was good enough, I wouldn't mind disc golf being a full time job. :)

taydrl
Nov 07 2007, 11:09 AM
Ladies, My wife Debbie and I are trying to build a facility that people can come to, bring their entire family, camp, rv, fish, hike and just totally relax while playing some very challenging disc golf courses. Our home club is Tulsa Disc Sports Assn.
We have one course in the ground, held the 4th Annual Twisted Flyer Open here on labor day weekend. Designing and preparing to build another, more challenging, 18 hole course now and have plans to put in some handicapped holes.
We are looking to try to encourage women in disc golf. What about an all womens tournament? Since we are brand new to the sport we appreciate ideas and suggestions. :cool:

cjgomez
Nov 09 2007, 02:40 PM
First I want to give you a huge pat on the back for the effort you have put in and the ongoing work you are doing! Much Love!!
I'd also like to put out the idea of perhaps a doubles tourney, or mixed doubles tourney. Doubles is a great way to entice new players, whether female or male. I also personally belive that doubles is just plain more fun :D
Would love to make it to your neck of the woods sometime to enjoy a facility where I can camp, play and enjoy nature. Best of luck to you both!

shortchic
Nov 15 2007, 04:54 PM
I haven't posted on here for a while and now that I'm caught up on some reading, I found myself asking something. Don't you all think it's funny that this topic revolves around playing for profit or playing for fun. I mean, let's be real for a sec. What woman, including Des and all the other top touring women, is actually profiting? I am willing to bet that even Des' profits aren't large enough to actually go towards major things. For instance, do you think Des' wins pay for let's say, her rent back home, gas (consider prices now), utilities back home and what about all meals on the road. She does actually have a home and a real job so, I think it's safe to say that not even Des plays for profit because there is no such thing! Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the only choice for us girls to play for our own reasons whether that is, fun, competition or to get away from regular weekend days. To me, it certainly seems like profit isn't a reason.

michellewade
Nov 16 2007, 03:43 PM
I haven't posted on here for a while and now that I'm caught up on some reading, I found myself asking something. Don't you all think it's funny that this topic revolves around playing for profit or playing for fun. I mean, let's be real for a sec. What woman, including Des and all the other top touring women, is actually profiting? I am willing to bet that even Des' profits aren't large enough to actually go towards major things. For instance, do you think Des' wins pay for let's say, her rent back home, gas (consider prices now), utilities back home and what about all meals on the road. She does actually have a home and a real job so, I think it's safe to say that not even Des plays for profit because there is no such thing! Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the only choice for us girls to play for our own reasons whether that is, fun, competition or to get away from regular weekend days. To me, it certainly seems like profit isn't a reason.



How correct you are! Even in my best years of 1990 - 2000, I still forked out way more money than I ever made, that's for sure! And now that my game has tanked b/c I don't play anymore, I have zero chance of making any money back. But that didn't stop me from playing last weekend at the So Cal Champs. :D

DiscDiva
Nov 17 2007, 12:34 AM
<font color="purple"> You rock SueMac. One of those who loves disc golf for the game and the people. Hugs girlfriend! ;) </font>

suemac
Nov 19 2007, 11:53 AM
Thanks Kathy.

Just a quick update. At Texas Team Championships this past weekend in Wimberley (Houck's place) there was a "Lady Outlaw" team in the merged division (3Int/3Adv) as the Pro Ladies aren't provided a good slot/opportunity to play on "regular" teams.

Mel Ring, Danielle Vargus, Laura Coffey, Ana Hernandez, Patty Justice and Andi Lehmann ROCKED.
Winning some matches and giving all those guys a run for their money and their pride.

Next year..........a full established team!

I made pink tie dye bandanas for all 23 Am ladies to wear in support. We had great solidarity, and most of all.......TONS OF FUN!

Hope we see some of you guys next spring at Texas Women's Championships in April.

CHulsey
Nov 29 2007, 01:22 PM
Hello Ladies -
We're going to being having our 1st annual (hopefully) Christmas Doubles @ Tom Brown Park (Tallahassee, FL )! We'll be playing best shot (I'll explain the day of) and you can BYOP (bring your own partner) Guys are welcome too! Feel Free to bring your hubbies, boyfriends, best friends or if we have to we'll pull strangers off the street LOL, j/k - but if you don't have a partner, we'll find you one! Pass the word! The only condition is that you have to wear a Christmas hat of sorts (santa, elf, reindeer, etc.) Your choice.

Also, please bring Christmas items: gift wrap, ornaments, bows, wreaths, gifts (boy and girl) and the like. I will be taking these to Refuge House.

Any Questions email me ([email protected]), I think that this will be a blast!