I've been having some planning issues as far as tournaments go and could really use some advice. I think that an issue for women is how to choose the best tournaments for
A. Your personal skill level and expectations
B. Your budget
C. The competition
D. Added Cash

What I have been running into is the Hambrick Dilemma, and others like it. The Hambrick is filling up and my travel buddies are pressing me to register. Right now, it's just Des and Elaine in the women's field. The entry fee is over a hundo and with travel costs, let's just bump it up to a $300 trip. I know my game; I'd have to put up my top 4 best scores of all time to beat those two girls in four rounds. Critter Bill says you just have to truly believe you can beat someone and you can. But doesn't that lead to the people who have temper tantrums when they shoot like themselves, and not like somebody else? I know my game, I'm fine with it and I don't like to waste money. So how can I justify playing the Hambrick and other tourneys like it? Michigan's economy is in the toilet right now and those girls who I'm supporting with my entry fee are definitely not redistributing it back to me by paying for massage therapy.

As far as added cash goes, another issue is how to determine how much of the cash goes to the women when almost all TD's say they add, for example, $1000, to the pro purse. At a tourney I hit a month ago with a grand added to the pro purse, guess how much of it the women got? FIFTY BUCKS. Then, three weeks later, I evaluate the Canadian Open, see that most likely I'll have a good battle for 4th place with some other tough girls (but not Des, Elaine or Val), but there was only 7 girls registered, so I figured the math was night good for a 4th place battle. Then they paid out to 5th - 70%!!! I've never heard of such a thing. HOW ARE WE TO KNOW??????

Can we nail down TD's ahead of time to committ to the purse? Why aren't more girls registering ahead of time......for the same reason I'm not? Because they are waiting to see if other girls will pad the field and make room for a cashing spot?

I'm glad we have a women's committee and they are focusing on contact lists and whatnot, but this is the real, pressing issue for me: tournament selection and how to spend my time and my money this summer. I've played 28 tournaments this year so far and more than half have been all by myself, or with just one other woman, which isn't a lot of fun. How to find a tourney with more than one competitor who isn't already a world champ?

Please oh please give me some input, ladies!

I will say this for added cash at NTs, Open Men and Women divisions are getting a triple share of the added cash at all NTs this year. What that means is the calculation triples your actual field size to determine what portion of added cash goes to it. Some A-tiers are following this added cash split also but you would have to check on that with each TD.

Yes, Chuck, I have seen that, but that your statements speak to the Des's of the world. I need someone to speak to ME, specifically about what I've taken the time to write about. With Elaine, Des and me at the Hambrick, what does a triple share do for me?

Can't help with anything else. Just wanted to mention the new NT added cash policy. The good news is that if TDs don't follow the payout table for the number to pay, it's almost always to more rather than less women. Your decision to play is similar to the decision many 975-990 local pros have to make whether to enter Open in these big events when the top players 40-60 points higher than them are playing.

i would think just playing with des, val or elaine would be an honor/learning experience in and of itself. how do other women in your area feel at more regional/local events when you are the big fish in the little pond? do you actively play with other/all local women for fun and encourage them, teach them, etc...to help build up the local women's division? i don't know but it sounds like you should revisit your reasons for playing dg competitively.

As a Pro Women in this sport it is a tough group to compete in. With that said, you need to think about why you play discgolf. Is it for fun? Is it for the travel? Is it for the money? To meet new people? Is it to get more females into the sport? Etc...

I can also understand your concern with not knowing payout size before travelling to a tournament, but it will depend on field size, sponsors, added cash as well as maybe some unknown factors such as weather. Being from Michigan myself, I only pre-registered for the Major Tournaments such as Women's Nationals or The Worlds. Maybe a few random other tournaments here or there because who knew what the weather was going to be like.

On side note, you can go back and look at past PDGA Tour results beginning in 2001which will show you payouts and field size, http://www.pdga.com/schedule/index.php.

Karolyn

hey sarah, if it was $50 entry fee would it be a no-brainer?

I think Sarah raises a good point and most of the responses are kind of brushing it aside. This happens even at the $50 level for the am women, except we're not looking at the possibility of walking away with cash. Besides, Sarah's concern seems to not just be the entry fee, but the total expenses as well. Going to a disc golf tournament is like taking a mini-vacation every weekend, and really eats away at one's budget.

It seems to me the knee jerk response is that we need more women to play. Well then why are we not encouraging more women to play with payouts? I know of a few TDs who always pay all of the women, or at least all of the am women. Why not put this in practice everywhere by setting a minimum field size for following the PDGA payout tables? This would help not only the women, but also the age-protected open divisions.

I haven't read the tour standards, so is there a requirement that the added cash go to each division proportionally with the field size? For example, if open is 50%, masters 25% and women 25% and I have $1000 added cash, is there a standard saying open gets $500, masters $250 and women $250?

It's usually proportioned by total paid entry fees per division not field size. With lower entry fees for Master, they would get a smaller portion of the added cash if they had the same number of players as Open.

First, I think you should feel free to call the TD and find out what his plan is for the added cash at any tournament you are thinking about going to. No TD should have any problem telling you what his plan is. I told you what our plan was for Rockford without you even asking first. %wise, the women got a better deal than the men. But you gotta ask. I was in the same way in 1994 when a lot of TDs did not offer Am Masters. I just had to call them up and ask.

Second, if you want to play the tournament but don't want to shell out a $100 entry fee with little real chance of cashing because Des, Juliana, Burl, Elaine, Angela, and Valerie are all pre-reg'd, check out the Intermediate Men's entry fee. Marie, Kelsey, Diana, Kira and sometimes Carla are all having fun competing against similarly rated amateur men. I think it is better for your game to play in a division where you have a chance to finish in the prizes and every stroke counts. If Diana had played one throw better on Sunday she would have been in a four-way playoff for first in Am 4. She knew it and played two of her best rounds this year.

Third, you have to remember that for nearly all of us, disc golf is a hobby, not a vocation. Play for the fun. Keep your costs low. If I drive to the Illinois States this weekend, I'll sleep on the bed in the conversion van and bring a cooler full of food and beverages. It'll cost me $150 and not $300.

Okay, I've been chewing over what you all have posted so far, and I've come up with an idea/solution. First of all, you ask why I play: It's for the competition against other women and the chance to make money off my sport. Not a ton of money, just some money, to offset travel costs. Both together, equally important. For this reason I have no interest in playing against men in the amateur divisions because I have no interest in winning plastic anymore, so I'm sorry, Bruce, but that's just not where I belong.

Please do not ever mention again anything about 'the honor of playing with Des, Elaine, Angela, Val'. It's not that - after all, I play with Sugar Schack almost every day. It's not an honor - he's my buddy, that's all. 'Honor' is a word that implies I hold reverence for other people; no, I hold reverence for the game. All I want is plentiful competition and the reasonable expectation to cash, even if I'm competing for last cash. So when I look at the Hambrick pre-reg and 3 of the big 7 are registered plus Liz, who is a golfer on par with my own skill level, I can reasonably assume that Liz Schooner and I will be playing for 4th place out of 5 spots. Will this place cash? I would be surprised if it did, so why play? Even if Liz Carr comes - another girl of my same player rating - we three will still be competing for 4th of 6; probably no cash.

So who's responsibility is this to get me to want to come to this tourney? Most of you will say it's my own responsibility, that I need to 'get over' my own rationale. But I stand by the logic that with the current pre-reg list, this tourney is not for me.

Is it the club's or the TD's responsibility to get me to play? That depends on their committment to the importance of having pro women play in their event. TDs who care little whether they have a field of 4 ladies or a field of 12 will say of course it is not their responsibility. TDs who care a lot will come up with a solution to lure more ladies in. I am receptive to luring. I've seen it done before, with fantastic results.

Before the Eric C. Yetter tournament, an A-tier in PA, there were only 2 women registered. The club was dismayed by this enough to sponsor women by charging them only $15 entry fee and each club member shelled out the rest of the entry fee - another $60 per woman. Within days the field swelled to 9 women and the payout was excellent. It was cheaper to play pro than am, so a lot of the mid-level "filler" ladies happily moved up to the pro division and padded the field. This year, they are once again charging only $35 and sponsoring the rest of the entry, and so I've made the Yetter one of the few tourneys I'm travelling a few states over for, as well as Marshall Street, of course.

Now I'm not saying that every club has to be as completely generous as the Yetter. Do Des, Val and Burl need their entry fees softened? Not at all. They cash in nearly every single event they play. Do I need my entry softened for B tiers in Michigan? Nope. Would I go to the Hambrick if I was offered entry for $40 with the rest sponsored by the club? YES, absolutely. That is how you'll get your filler ladies.

So I'll put it out there: How important is it to your club and your tournament that you have a field with more than just the dominant touring women? How important is it to Des that she's competing against more than just the other touring women? Will it come to the point when all of us upcoming pros - who cash seldomly in big events, who never see our pictures in the magazine, who never get thanked by Des or Val for donating every time they come to town, who play every weekend in order to get to where Des and Val are someday, who drive their pro men friends to tourneys where no other pro women even show up - will it come to the point when we won't play the big events anymore and it will be just Des vs. Val vs. Angela.....how happy will those women be then? How important are we - the other girls - to the sport?

how do you think 950 rated pro men feel at every single NT event???

you know, those players who can battle for cash at their local tournaments, and weak out of town fields(ok maybe not in MI, but in most regions).

yet at every NT there are some of these players there, basically donating to the touring pros. maybe 1/20 of these players cash at each of the big tournaments, so their "reasonable expectation to cash" is not there.


I know Val has been touring for a few years, and she wasn't always making a profit I am sure, yet she stuck with it and now is doing very well on tour. Same thing with Lesli Demark, who was out there touring a bit and rarely cashing. now she is cashing and competing for the top spots in most tournaments.

I think everyone would like to see payout %'s posted in advance of a tournament, not just women. Toronto always pays out great to women- something I agree with if the sponsorship is there to justify it. I don't see a need for clubs to dump money to cover the entry fees of those who want to play, but don't want to lose money to better players. I don't see any 920 GM asking for this when they go to a NT and have 5 985+ rated players in their 12 person division.

PS- Juliana tried to put together a list of female-friendly tournaments a couple years back, not sure what became of it though.

At first reading I noticed how much of what you said could apply to me, just replace the names Des and Val with Dave and Avery. I flew from Detroit to K.C. one year to "donate" and not one of those guys thanked me in their speaches. I'm like a lot of guys that would love to travel and play tourneys every weekend, but can't due to high entry fees and the fact that we won't cash.

Upon further reflection, however, I see the dismal state of female participartion in our sport. I feel that we're at a critical point where we've got to strongly focus our efforts on increasing the female % of PDGA members and competitors. Bringing more females into the sport helps create a more family-friendly environment, which brings more kids to the table, and creates a much more "sale-able" product for advertisers.

There's a big difference between 100 guys coming to a tournament and shacking up with locals, in their vehicles, and 12 hotel rooms and a mixed field of 100 that bring another another 100 people with them, rent 60 hotel rooms, stay an extra 2-3 nights, and spend money at the local attractions.

I've heard that some of our touring RV crowd have made pitches for the big sponsor. This idea is prime to break through. Imagine, though, how much more interesting that idea becomes when it's a team of 4-5 ladies. They made a reality TV show out of the Holy Rollers roller-derby team in Austin. The Flying Femmes Fatales would be every bit as interesting.


Before the Eric C. Yetter tournament, an A-tier in PA, there were only 2 women registered. The club was dismayed by this enough to sponsor women by charging them only $15 entry fee and each club member shelled out the rest of the entry fee - another $60 per woman. Within days the field swelled to 9 women and the payout was excellent. It was cheaper to play pro than am, so a lot of the mid-level "filler" ladies happily moved up to the pro division and padded the field. This year, they are once again charging only $35 and sponsoring the rest of the entry, and so I've made the Yetter one of the few tourneys I'm travelling a few states over for, as well as Marshall Street, of course.


I applaud the tournaments that see the importance of attracting y'all and go the extra mile to make it happen. This brings in a whole other debate, but I wouldn't put any added cash into Pro Masters, the sport as a whole gets way more out of that money if it's added to Pro Women.

Girls that are being introduced to the sport need to see Des and Burl and Val and Angie and Courtney. They need to see the best of the best, but they also need to see the 2nd tier Pro Women. They need to see the struggle that you're going through to become one of the best. They need to know that it's a process with attainable goals and not feel that they're a few born superstars.

Aside from tournament play, as I alluded to earlier, many disc golf courses do not provide an environment that is friendly to women, families, and kids. THIS HAS GOT TO GO AWAY!

The courses where you roll up into the parking lot and there's a bunch of vagrants, delinquent kids, and the local "pros" all hanging out in symbiotic dis-harmony need to be adopted by those that care and become welcoming places where women and teens can come play without feeling intimidated. This responsibility rests with us fellas. Local men (pro and am alike) need to spend time picking up trash, putting down mulch, trimming, pouring new tee pads, building signs and benches, welcoming people to the park, giving free lessons and not just hanging around breaking laws and complaining about how "the sport's not going anywhere".

It ain't me
It's the people that say
Men are leading the women astray
But I say, it's the women today
Smarter than the man in every way


:cool:

Luke, thanks for contributing. I would like to see men left out of this discussion for the reason that men still have large fields to retreat to when they don't want to play NTs. And if you say, well there's only 12 pro men in your region, that is still a huge field to women, who's fields are generally 0 - 3 players outside of NTs.

I'm not a 950 man. My equivalent in the men's division is a 980 player. This is the upper level male players who might dominate in home regions, but have mighty battles in bigger tournaments - ONLY because there are so many other 970 - 990 players participating, and they have a reasonable expectation toward low to middle cashes and maybe a top cash if they play out of their head. But imagine if an NT held only Barry, Kenny and new 980 pro Jack. How would the TD feel about the pro field then? How would Jack feel? I do feel for you 950s, just as I feel for the 870 pro women. There's a reason why only very local 870 pro women play NTs. Charity. But this discussion isn't about them either. They still have a ways to go with practice and improvement before they can achieve a reasonable expectation to cash.

I don't play for charity. I also don't play like Val or Leslie when they were touring and not cashing. Does that sound intelligent and rational to you? Does the ability to waste money make one a better player?

Yes, Toronto was a very surprising exception and I would have gone had I known ahead of time they would pay 70% of the field. That is a very specific example non-indicitive of the rest of my argument.

If your non-women specific attitude indicates how the rest of the DG men view women in this sport - that our increased participation in big events is a waste of a club's money - then I have my answer as to where we stand. In the background and shadows.

Denny, thanks, I like what you had to say. Goes to show there are other attitudes toward women out there and it feels good to know it.

lol I just paid out like 300% to the amateur women at my tournament this past weekend, which was basically out of pocket(mine and the other TD, not the clubs).

personally I would love to see women-specific sponsors for tournaments to reduce entry fees. I think spending time to attract these sponsors would yield a higher long term return for women than the clubs shelling out money themselves.

I know Val has been touring for a few years, and she wasn't always making a profit I am sure, yet she stuck with it and now is doing very well on tour. Same thing with Lesli Demark, who was out there touring a bit and rarely cashing. now she is cashing and competing for the top spots in most tournaments.


There's a very big difference between Val and Lesli touring and Sarah touring. Val has a very supportive, very active family that helps her with her travel and have done so for the past few years. She's not traveling alone. Lesli has Brinster, who pretty much always cashes. She's not travelling alone. Des has Yeti, then there's Juliana and Shawn, and that's about where my knowledge ends. As far as I know, Sarah doesn't have a family like the Jenkinses, or a 1020+ rated bf/husband to help ease the travel costs. But then again, why should she have to? Why should any of these women have to rely on others to help with travel?

Des has Yeti


Don't you mean Jay has Des? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I stand corrected :)

Why should any of these women have to rely on others to help with travel?



Women have always had an upward battle, in all areas of our lives. This isn't any different, things in this world are never fair or equal......ask any woman. :cool:

The average US state and country outside the US has less than 3 pro women and 8 am women PDGA members. There just aren't enough women playing the game seriously.

And things definately aren't equal. I beat the local pro women most of the time but there isn't a division that pays cash for 920 rated disc golf performances from men. [Except maybe your really, really old men. I'm short two "reallys" for that.]

The moral to that story. We ladies should be glad we live in country with more than three lady pros and eight am girls, right? :D ;) :D

I'd like to address something else, if I may. A lot of you have mentioned it's my job to go out and hold clinics and talk to women and encourage them and start leagues and all the rest. Is this truly the way to get more women playing? For all the reasons I've stated in previous threads - fear of other women and appearing less talented, jealousy, preference to men - I believe this is futile.

Instead, I've done my part in a way that speaks more to my own motivations: I've created the DITCH, which demands that guys find women as mandatory players on their teams. I've created a tournament in which women become valuable commodoties rather than embarrassing by-products. Isn't this truly valueing women, am and pro alike?

The fact is that Pro women only make up 2% of todays current members (169)....5% including Ams. We/The PDGA have got to be able to improve on that... Come on.... Men need to make it worth while for women players and get a better system for even better payouts and connect with what these golfers need to stay interested and well compensated.....I agree with Denny and Susan.. Women and families are a big part of the future of our sport.. Since men make up 95% of all current golfers, its got to be men who make sacrifices to allow for better payouts, family friendly venues and facilities (restrooms etc). We play Team golf in the Shasta Series, and if you don't have a woman golfer you are likely missing out on points at every tournament. The team that had the strongest woman golfer won the cup at the finals....

I'd like to address something else, if I may. A lot of you have mentioned it's my job to go out and hold clinics and talk to women and encourage them and start leagues and all the rest. Is this truly the way to get more women playing? For all the reasons I've stated in previous threads - fear of other women and appearing less talented, jealousy, preference to men - I believe this is futile.



I have to agree with you, it is hard to get the girls out to play without a boyfriend/husband being involved. As this isn't a sport for makeup and "cute" outfits, it is an upward battle.

Until we have more "facilities" aka restrooms, most girls don't find this sport attractive. All kidding aside, I am grateful that I'm not one of those girls. But hurdles like that have to be addressed to make our sport more inviting to the female masses.

And I believe that ladies at all levels have the same challenges as you when deciding what events to make, etc.

Communication is the key to future success.

Last year at the Memorial, an NT event, I heard that there were NO port-o-potties or anything at one of the courses. That's just not right. If they can't provide for lthe girls at the upper-crust of events, WOW!

We also play handi-cap golf at the same time we play division, and cash prizes (this is non-sanctioned) are awarded for overall finishes respectively. We have doubled the amount of women golfers since men and women alike started competing against one another with handi-caps for the overall competition. Our series is comprised of 14% women golfers...

There are several issues to which I'd like to respond.

1) With regard to making plans based in part on planned payouts, etc., I'd strongly suggest calling the TD.

2) To EVERY disc golfer out there - preregister if at all possible. (Inquire about refund policies in advance if necessary, too). To every TD, please please please post preg lists online and keep them up to date. For any division, this builds enthusiasm for the event! (And, it should go without saying, use all the channels of communication available to inform folks about payout and "enhancements" in advance!!")

3) While I agree whole-heartedly with Denny's points about families and disc golf, its my opinion that for the most part PDGA tournament play is basically not family-friendly. Its also not really "female friendly", mostly because women tend to carry more of the child-care burden than men. PDGA tourney play is more geared toward the (relatively) unattached individual who can commit the extensive time required for travel and tourney play (plus practicing). However, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing on the part of the PDGA - since I don't believe that the PDGA can be all things to all people. (Note that this doesn't stop me and my family from attending as many PDGA events as we can each year - we love them! But we're not really a normal disc golf family, either.)

4) The future of disc golf is in our families and young people. I believe that critical mass is being achieved, at least in some parts of the country, specifically by initiatives mentioned by many on this thread. Sarah's DITCH, Luke's prizes, Yetter's entry fee discounts, Des' personalized invites to the USWDGC, etc. are different ways of responding to the issue. Stand back for a minute and celebrate these successes, learn about and from them -- and carry on with them and others like them.

Denny, thanks, I like what you had to say. Goes to show there are other attitudes toward women out there and it feels good to know it.



sarah, there are lots of td's out there that treat women BETTER than anything mentioned here, but unfortunately unless you live in a region where they are,you probably don't hear about it...
this is why the women's committee and women that play NEED TO have a up to date and valid email database to disseminate that info to the ladies who play...

i have FOR ALL 11 YEARS of running events including supertours and am worlds paid EVERY SINGLE lady that entered,without having crappy payouts(good sponsorship) EVERYONE that has entered any event i've run has gotten a players package am and pro...

never attracted alot of women players (except am worlds)

john biscoe's events are ALWAYS extremely women friendly (and he even cooks for everyone to boot :D)

we(td's) are out there trying things...but if the women don't know about the event, don't come for whatever reaon, or have other responsibilities...we can't solve that....

but I PERSONALLY will continue to run my events the same way as i'm hoping that one day what i put on every tee sign i sponsor will 1 day come true and she'll win enough money playing that i can retire.... :D

but if it stays the same as the last 11 years with some but not huge progress, i'll probably be dead long before it happens

just my opinion...

keith

Thanks for the support, Keith. And yes, I definitely concur that John Biscoe treats the ladies with exceptional generosity with all his events, whether it's making women mandatory at the Virginia Team Invitational or having added cash from his own pocket at the Hawk Hollow Open.

Are you involved with Southern Nats? I'll give props to that tourney as well, since every year I've checked the stats the women have had a lion's share of the cash. I would go this year, but am forsaking Paw Paw for the first time in 4 years to attend Michigan State Finals, an event raved about by all Michiganders and I have yet to experience.

come on down to TEXAS....the TWC is off the hook....check the payouts!

Yeah, I've noticed the big fields and big payouts in Texas. It's also a very big drive or a big plane fare for me. Too bad, though. Maybe I'll put y'all on my fare watcher list...

We do everything big in Texas, and hope we'll see you next year. We have had ladies from as far away as IL, CA and beyond. And many have attending multiple years (2007 was our 3rd year!)

There is hope for us ladies, and someday we'll look back, knowing we were all DG pioneers for the up and coming ladies. Some of us will be on the porch sooner than others, but we will have all been a part of the beginning.

Time to hit the road for the weekend tournament, ladies have a great day. :cool:

To toot our own horn I think if every PDGA member and TD were to do what Bruce and I do there would be as many women playing PDGA events 10 years from now as there are men. We got our wives and daughters playing casually and then in tournaments. That's five women. Then we got our sister interested in playing. Now we're up to 6 women playing.

On the TD side we always offer every division that a woman can play even if they are playing it by themselves. This might not be a big deal where you are from but around here when we started running tournaments, other TDs would often not offer a division unless at least 3 people showed up to play it. At our tournaments women know that they can always play in whatever division they are eligible.

Trophy only pro division for $10! Barrett White has women to play with because of our low cost trophy only fee. We have women who play just for the $10 lesson and the fun of playing with Barrett. Barrett doesn't care about the payout but she does get a little extra added cash out of it.

Encouraging women to play the men's division appropriate to their rating when there aren't very many women playing. I always group the women doing this together for the first round and they always start near the bathroom and tournament central. It might not be for all women, but it does give them another outlet for playing against a large field of people who are getting the same score. They aren't playing "at the same level" because arguably a woman with an 890 rating is a much better player than a man with the same rating. It might seem counterintuitive to suggest to play with the men and it might not be what every woman wants to do, but playing in a competitive division has helped all the women who have done this at the IOS events.

We always have bathrooms. We ran a leg of the IOS at a park that did not have bathroom facilities and we said no more. Last year we rented a port-potty and this year we dropped the venue.

I play in the open division and will readily admit that I'm not the best player out there, but I can say that I am improving. I can credit a significant amount of my success to watching and learning from the top golfers. Burl, Val, Lesli, Des, Juliana, Elaine, not to mention all the other amazing women golfers....these women inspire me. I may not play as well as they do as consistently as they do now, but someday I will. These are the women who have paved the way for the rest of us. Their successes promote women in disc golf. I have played rounds with several of these ladies and they are supportive, encouraging, and quite frankly, are some of the main reasons I play tournaments. I learn so much each time I play a round with one of these women. I have much respect for all the disc golf tour players.

I also agree with Emily about the learning part. I've been playing Pro for a couple years and donating most of my time. BUT, I enjoy playing with the Pro's and have learned the most from them and that is how I've gotten my game to step up more. We do have to admit that this isn't (YET) a sport that most of us could live off of. However it's growing bigger and bigger every year.

A huge part of the women's % out there has to do with US women getting more women to play! I convinced my local club to have a women's only tournament this year and we had 29 girls to show up, including Des! But 14 of those girls were there because of me and the women's league I run in Lansing. Most of them had never even played a tournament but had so much fun! Get more women to play and the fields will grow.

To show you how your theory works, Erin, but falls apart in application: Three years ago Jen D. met me on the course, regaled me with tales of the fabulous tournaments she attended and spent 6 months trying to get me to play one, even though she was met with full resistence. She finally succeeded and DGLO was my first event, and of course I caught the fever and fell in love with competition.

Three years later the fever hasn't subsided and I want to play an event every weekend, the bigger the better. However, the fever must be balanced with the budget and when I am faced with a situation such as the Hambrick Dilemma (high entry fee, dominant top field, no REC - Reasonable Expectation to Cash), then I am forced to respect my budget and not play in the tourney.

So what you are saying is get more women to play disc golf in general and then when they become good and want to play big events, then they must be forced to sacrifice any amount of money for "the learning experience". Without this sacrificial attitude, there are small fields at NTs consisting of Touring Pros only, but the responsibility still lies on my shoulders to donate and fatten the field and purse. Does that sound right?

So my question is this: the women are getting the newer women to play more DG. Then when we get competitive, we get hung out to dry. We are talking about different women here. I think everyone is doing a good job for those am / rec women, but I am speaking about the Erins, Sarahs, Jens, Marshas, Liz's and the Michelle M's of the world: Women that want to play, but don't want to donate without any expectation of a return.

Why do you think that Michigan has like 12 pro women who rarely play events? Most of the time it ends up being just me and Liz and sometimes Sue or the Jens or Erin. And travelling out of state to tourneys? Liz and I are the only ones this year. This is not an issue for the women starting leagues: I truly believe it is an issue for clubs and TDs to address.

We've done our part with recruiting the newbies and ams: now it's time we are recruited to compete.

The trophy options is more applicable to the ladies and needs to be offered more often. That is the way you're going to grow your local open field. Problem is generally TD's are not aware or willing to offer this option, even when it is requested.

At Victoria Open in February, we were able to field fifteen ladies and didn't have FW1. Yes, Des won but it gave a lot of other ladies the chance to move up, and if they had actully paid the full price, they'd have cashed.

VPO is was the same way. I played with Burl, Elaine and Sheila on my first card. I was happy to pay half price to participate and have the opportunity to play one round with those top players.

There isn't an easy solution. You talk here, but do you have any ideas on how to make it better?

Any ideas? What have I been harping on and on about?

***Subsidizing of entry fees by a club or TD for specific filler women within a regional area for their specific event.***

This IS an easy solution! What is not easy about it?

I do not believe playing trophy-only is good for women. This eliminates the reasonable expectation to cash, only to get a trophy, which is not what we want. At the Victoria Open you had a huge field of Open Women - with Des being the ONLY woman with a higher rating than 864. You all had a 100% Reasonable Expectation to Cash with the event paying 5 spots, with the possible exception of the 700 girls. Those 700 girls should have been the only women offered subsidized entry fees, under my suggested idea. Otherwise, your field was exceptional in the pursuit of 2nd thru 5th cashes. Why play for trophy only at such an event? That's silliness.
Plus, allowing women to pay only half entry without the other half being subsidized by the club diminishes the overall payout, which is NOT what we want, neither the top girls nor the middle field.

My system keeps the sanctity of cashing intact and releases the donating girls the burdon of sacrifice.

Every three of the 700 rated ladies equals a full paying player, most of the am girls have enough plastic to choke a horse. Isn't it better to try and have one decent field? Many of us don't have the desire to be competitive to the point where we make the other girls bristle, but want more players within a division. Even if we end up playing with the same girls as we do in Am, we are willing to make a donation to the big girls, just for the experience. Do you think that's wrong?

Not every woman who plays is as driven by competition and winning as you appear to be, so, in an effort to find common ground, many of us will move up. It shouldn't matter to you as you might only have to play with lesser skilled ladies the first round.

Some higher rated Am ladies might not want to cash so they can make Am Worlds before moving up, etc.

If I am reading your posts right, you think that local clubs should fill in the gaps with money? Wow.

If that observation is wrong, I apologize, but this is not professional tennis or golf. Maybe you need to change games.

You are missing the point of the Trophy Only entry fee: Open Pro entry fees for men and women are way too high, but offering the Trophy Only option lowers those entry fees to a reasonable level.

I 100% believe that the main reason the am men's divisions are flourishing is because the entry fees versus the "tournament experience" are a perceived "great value". Yes there are some plastic-***** men, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Most guys make a value based decision for entering a tourney, and even though there is no cash available, $40-$50 is a great value for a weekend tourney.

$80-$125 is not a great value at all, so they don't play pro.

I believe the women's field follows this same line of thinking, but I'm not a chick so I'm not as 100% certain.

$30-$40 for a weekend tourney is a great value. $60-$100 is not. Thus smaller pro fields. Look at the Vic Open. Trophy Only reduced the FPO entry fee from something crazy like $80 or $100 to something very reasonable along the lines $43. That is what got the ladies to "step up" to FPO: a better value. It didn't matter that four cashing spots might've been there for people not named Des, because at the full-price entry fee thosed ladies weren't interested in playing FPO so there really wouldn't have been four more cashing spots. Most of those ladies would've played FW1.

I think the same dynamic applies to the men's and the women's fields: unless there is a good perceived value, people don't sign up. It's a little harsher in the FPO fields because you end up with 1-3 people instead of the 10-15 you might get with lower entry fees. The men's open fields still draw 15-30 with the steep entry fees, but I believe they would draw a heck of a lot more to MPO if the entry fee were $50 or less.

Exactly! At Victoria, we paid a few dollars less for the trophy only option in open versus FW1. So, why would we do that when we might get the chance to play the first round with Des?

I've been lucky, as I've played lots of casual golf with Des over the past few years. It always pushes my game when I play with better girls, so I want to do that whenever I can.

Most women would have to agree that most am events, don't have the discs I throw available for payout. I'm tired of getting stuff I can't use and must go to the trouble of selling or trading. How inviting is that when considering whether or not to play?

Throughout a woman's life we always encounter discrimination and battle for whatever ground we gain, Maybe you're just too young to know what I"m talking about.

TH, You seem bitter and jaded, I feel sorry for you.

Throughout a woman's life we always encounter discrimination and battle for whatever ground we gain, Maybe you're just too young to know what I"m talking about.


I'm not trying to flame things, but I, at 25, am sick of being told that I have to struggle for things just because I am a woman. Believe me, I know the battles, I am a PhD student in a 95% male field. I honestly don't believe that my gender is holding me back. DO you really think that your gender causes "battles" in all aspects of your life? Just something to think about.

**I wish I could convey tone through text, alas that seems to be a lost art. That really was not meant in a mean or arguing way, more of a thought-provoking way.**

You are young and aren't fighting the battles that ladies fought in decades past. If you are tired of hearing it, how do you think us old ladies feel?

When I think about the discriminiation that has gone before us, you have no idea of how lucky you are. As much as no one likes to hear it, it is still the way things are in the world.

In my book, all people struggle. Women are just multi-tasking warriors!

If women are not being held back, why do we CONTINUE to earn less than men for the same job? Just the facts my dear.

And I too, don't want to flame this subject, so I'll stop here.

Everyone, have fun playing disc golf! Let's save the world another day. :D

Do you really want to know why women must struggle and fight for things? Because when you do find a woman who offers concrete solutions, who says that she doesn't feel she has to sacrifice and struggle, then women like you tell her "That's just how things are. We struggle. Life is hard. Life isn't fair. I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU."

Why do you feel sorry for me, Sue? Because I have passion? Because I can think and come up with ideas? Because I refuse to take upon my shoulders the burdon of sacrifice and struggle? Because I refuse to address women as groups and prefer to see them as individuals with individual issues? Because I have the courage to ask the Old Boys Club for help when I see an increasing problem with women's disc golf? Because you mistake vision and change for jaded and bitter?

"Just the facts, dear." No! The facts in my life are what I make them. Nobody else has control of this. When they do, I fight for my own vision. You wrote, "Even if we end up playing with the same girls as we do in Am, we are willing to make a donation to the big girls, just for the experience. Do you think that's wrong?" I don't judge right and wrong for you, but yes, that's completely wrong for me. I think what you're missing here is that this isn't just my problem. It's a problem for the top girls because when they show up in hoardes to a tournament, it deters the other mid-level pros from going. As I've said before, this leads - or will lead - to NTs with tiny women's fields, Des vs. Val. vs. Burl. This makes it a problem for TDs who care about women as well. Are there many TDs who take a look at their NT, see poor registration for the Women's field, and despair enough to look for solutions?

You wrote, "If I am reading your posts right, you think that local clubs should fill in the gaps with money? Wow." Why is this shocking? Isn't this a reasonable solution? Tell me exactly what is unreasonable about it, please.

Finally, you wrote, "If that observation is wrong, I apologize, but this is not professional tennis or golf. Maybe you need to change games."

And now we have our answer as to why women quit disc golf. It's because when we become dissatisfied with our situation, we are told that this is they way it is, and if you don't like it, leave. What is wrong with change? Is it really so threatening to you, Sue, and all the rest of you?

Oh, and I'm soooooo young. Does being old make you resigned?

Everyone, have fun playing disc golf! Let's save the world another day. :D



I guess so.

Oh, and I'm soooooo young. Does being old make you resigned?



No, a realist. Whoever told you life was fair or equal must have wanted something from you.

I've worked hard throughout my life in male dominated industries, and have experienced the "glass ceiling" personally. As much as you cry, you must not grasp the inroads that the women before you have made in getting things to where they are now.

I just think that the younger set forgets what came before.

Expecting the GOB to step in and make things "equitable" for the ladies is unrealistic and will lead to disappointment when it doesn't happen accordingly.

Your position only seems to address your situation, not women in disc golf as a whole. Just you, the skilled competitor.

I see golf through different eyes, and my desire is to have a good time and keep joy in my heart. We just operate with different objectives.

End of story. ;)

Sarah, please don't take any of this the wrong way or that I'm attacking you cuz I really like you.

Ok, I totally agree with the fact that yeah it costs money to travel and play, trust me, I've DONE my travelling, but in my Am years. Then I had a kid. Turned Pro RIGHT after I had my kid and didn't play but maybe 2 rounds for 2 years. Came right back out into the game and continued to "donate" my money to the Pro's. I'm sorry but you can't expect to come out and cash in every event which is what it sounds like your expectations are. If you want to balance your budget and not play a tournament because of your budget, then don't play it. We all have a budget.

I go play plenty of tournaments not expecting to cash but hoping that I get to play with you, Lizz or Sue or Jonna and at least have fun. So I see where you are coming from with your budget, just we have different reasons for playing. I had tons of fun with you and Lizz at CCR Open, that was the most fun I'd had playing in a great group of Pro Women since Peoria last year. To me, that was worth more than cashing.

When you say "but I am speaking about the Erins, Sarahs, Jens, Marshas, Liz's and the Michelle M's of the world: Women that want to play, but don't want to donate without any expectation of a return. " Don't speak for me. That's not what I'm about. You all play way more often than I and have better ratings than me so I don't expect anything. If I play sweet and end up cashing then sweet! :)

As of the hoards of Top Pro Players at NT's...isn't that what we want? I wish I had the money to spend to go get spanked by Des, Val and the rest of the top pro women at some NT's. So it seems to me that your solution to this problem should be that there should be a Pro2 division for women...didn't they try that with the men once? I'm not trying to argue with you Sarah, cuz I think you're great, and a great golfer, but the whole thread does make it sound like you want all players (women of course) with our range of ratings to unite and have our own playoffs with bigger payouts....so you can cash at them all.

Erin, I apologize sincerely for speaking for you when you don't share my views, and I apologize for the other women out there I mentioned in the same manner who also do not approach the issue similarly to me.


. I'm sorry but you can't expect to come out and cash in every event which is what it sounds like your expectations are. If you want to balance your budget and not play a tournament because of your budget, then don't play it. We all have a budget.



PLEASE understand the concept of the REC - Reasonable Expectation to Cash. Yes, this MUST be present for me to attend a tourney. If there is a chance I can take a cashing spot, then the REC is present, and I will be, too. If there is not - as in the Hambrick - then you are totally correct. I should not, and will not play it. But please understand what I keep saying: This is not my problem alone because when we all begin to steer clear of the cashing top girls, I suffer, TDs (might) suffer, tourneys suffer and the top girls suffer from poor attendence and lack of a middle field.


As of the hoards of Top Pro Players at NT's...isn't that what we want? I wish I had the money to spend to go get spanked by Des, Val and the rest of the top pro women at some NT's. So it seems to me that your solution to this problem should be that there should be a Pro2 division for women...didn't they try that with the men once? I'm not trying to argue with you Sarah, cuz I think you're great, and a great golfer, but the whole thread does make it sound like you want all players (women of course) with our range of ratings to unite and have our own playoffs with bigger payouts....so you can cash at them all.



You wish you had the money to get spanked in these events! That's how I feel, too! I WISH I could play in the Hambrick this weekend, but it's foolish to flush money down the toilet with no REC! That is the key to my entire argument: WE WISH TO PLAY BIG EVENTS, BUT DON'T WISH TO ALWAYS LOSE MONEY. So the question becomes: How can increase the middle field by turning our wishes into reality? With subsidizing entry fees, you CAN afford to get spanked in big events - which means, more importantly, that you'll be playing in them.

I don't want a Pro B pool - that is not my solution at all. I've already said what I want. Subsidizing of entry fees by the hosting club for filler girls. It's so easy! Please tell me what is specifically the problem with this solution! I don't demand to cash at all my events; I just want an REC, that's ALL.

I've always thought that I write pretty clearly. Why is everyone having a hard time understanding my simple solution?

I've always thought that I write pretty clearly. Why is everyone having a hard time understanding my simple solution?



I think I get it. Especially with regards to your concept of the REC - Reasonable Expectation to Cash. If there's a women's pro field of 7 or 8 golfers, and Des, Val, and Burl are playing, and the tournament is only paying the top 3 golfers, then you have no expectation to cash.

This differs greatly from men's Open in that if there are touring players at an event there are usually enough other golfers in the field that there are a significant number of paying spots, which give lower rated golfers at least a fighting chance to cash. Imagine that in every sanctioned tournament you played in, you faced Climo, Schultz and Feldberg and the tournament only paid out three places. You'd quickly re-think playing in sanctioned events.

Ahhhh......thank you, Jeff. This is the sound of my huge sigh of relief and gratitude that someone understands.

If there is a chance I can take a cashing spot, then the REC is present, and I will be, too. If there is not - as in the Hambrick - then you are totally correct. I should not, and will not play it. .



I think your playing the game for the wrong reasons then, last I checked its supposed to be about having fun. if your not having enough fun to compensate for your entry fee then thats your problem I guess. a lot of other people are however.

If everyone followed your REC then there would be 20-30 person tournaments across the nation. because without the lowest "donators" who never cash/prize in a division, the mid level players won't be able to win anything, and thus won't play- thus creating tournaments where top pros share the tiny added cash and none make enough to tour on, and AMs just break even in entry fees.

I think your playing the game for the wrong reasons then, last I checked its supposed to be about having fun. if your not having enough fun to compensate for your entry fee then thats your problem I guess. a lot of other people are however.

If everyone followed your REC then there would be 20-30 person tournaments across the nation. because without the lowest "donators" who never cash/prize in a division, the mid level players won't be able to win anything, and thus won't play- thus creating tournaments where top pros share the tiny added cash and none make enough to tour on, and AMs just break even in entry fees.

[/QUOTE]

Wow, Luke, you've comprehended exactly what the ladies field is currently like. Exactly. Thank you for understanding.

It's a good thing the men have fields of generally 30 - 70 in every division to retreat to. Just think if your division only had 0 - 3 competitors or 5 - 7 in big tourneys?? Makes your men's tourney of 20 - 30 players sound a lot better, huh?

How crazy to conceive that our brains work differently! Thanks for telling me that the way mine works is wrong and I shouldn't play golf. Maybe I'll tell you that the way yours works is absolutely correct and you should become a professional skee-baller, since winning those orange tickets is so rewarding - it's about the fun.

I don't want a Pro B pool - that is not my solution at all. I've already said what I want. Subsidizing of entry fees by the hosting club for filler girls. It's so easy! Please tell me what is specifically the problem with this solution! I don't demand to cash at all my events; I just want an REC, that's ALL.


Alright, while I support this stance, I'll play devil's advocate and bring up one problem with this solution - not all clubs have the money to do it. I've recently been haphazardly given a position on the board of hte largest disc golf club in Colorado. I got a quick look at hte current financial standings and they weren't pretty. now, I haven't been involved with the board except for like 3 months now, so I have no idea how they got to where they are. In our case, adding money for women would require seeking out extra sponsorship or it would come straight from the board members' pockets since we couldn't do it off of club funds. I am not sure, but I'm guessing there are other clubs out there that run A-tiers that are in the same boat...

There seem to be a bunch of folks on this thread that think Sarah is suffering from UCE (unrealistic competitive expectations).

Her expectations may or may not be realistic, BUT I guarantee that she's not the only lady to be in her position, she just happens to be the only one (so far) to be vocal about it here. As a sport we absolutely CANNOT AFFORD to belittle her or blow her off. Whether you're a lady that would like more fellow competitors or a man who's looking for a much more family-friendly casual and tournament atmoshphere and greater marketability to outside sponsors, we NEED to greatly increase our percentage of female players.

I don't think I'll get much disagreement with that last sentence. (aside from the jagass "locals" who don't want anything to interfere with them getting wasted and "owning" the park.) I think there are actions that can be taken at all levels to improve the situation for all women currently in and coming to the sport. Necessity is a mother.

So, the solution in getting more cash sponsorship for ladies..............the ladies are going to have to seek out new sponsors specifically for the girls. No problem, right?

In the past, we've had sponsors who wanted their funds to be directed to the ladies, and it hasn't gone over well within the general community. That is a bigger challege than it first appears.

So, are the local am girls supposed to go raise funds to support the pro ladies purses? We have one/two open ladies in all of Houston, does raising those funds become their responsibility?

Not trying to argue, but looking for a way to make this suggestion a reality.

This past spring, I made a decision to staff for Texas States instead of playing. As I was incharge of food and such, I made arrangements for the profit from Sunday's BBQ lunch to go to support any Texas girls headed to Peoria in September.

Diane Killackey and I did EVERYTHING and served around 175 plates over a four hour period.

We received little help in our endevor, and in the process I've become very jaded about ever trying to raise funds for DG again.

So, based on my experience, your proposal is "pie in the sky" thinking. Good luck with your efforts.

As a devoted father, husband, and active tournament player, I think we (The men of the PDGA) should step up and help women with entry fees or whatever else is needed. Some good things are already happening out there, but we could do a lot more. I think it is hypocritical if we go around talking about how important women and families are for the continued growth of our sport, but fail to provide what�s needed to ensure that. If we are going to keep growing and hit the main stream, we need to step up and give them the support and the facilities needed to accomplish that goal. It can't be that hard to remember that women and families are attending an event and provide something as simple as a port-o-potty. It can�t be that hard to plan and hold sanctioned events so that they go the extra-distance to cater to women and families.

Making a subsidy program for the pro-women who need it to be able to stay on the NT doesn�t sound like a bad idea to me, if that is what is needed. For that matter such a program could be made to work for other pro�s, Am-women and all juniors... I'm not sure exactly how it would work, but I could see it being handled by the PDGA and the subsidy money being fairly allotted to events based on their level of popularity, the specific tier or attendance and have GREATLY reduced entry fees as part of the advertising for a particular event as incentive to get women and juniors playing. Dollars used could come from added membership fees to the demographic majority...which is adult men...Unused dollars could be returned to the PDGA and passed on some way or returned in added cash.

I keep hearing that if we want to continue to grow, we need to tap into the vast population of women and juniors who are not yet ready or willing to attend events because the cost, the lack of facilities, bad behavior or lack of support by the players, etc� so why don�t we make it happen? I'm tired of the fact that I don't want to invite the non-disc golfing families I know into the sport because of the ever-present sterotypical problems that would immediately ensure they would not return....

Torgue Hoar is not stating anything about the women's divisions that is any different than the men's divisions.

Seriously.

There is not enough added cash at PDGA tournaments for disc golf playing to be a business venture that doesn't lose money for you. Unless you are one of the top 5 pro men.

Sorry, that's how it is. Clubs are already raising as much money as they can to make their tourneys as awesome as they can get them. No one out there running a tournament is saying, "Hmmmmm, there's ten thousand dollars I could acquire for FPO payout, but screw it. I ain't gonna do that 'cause I want to hold the women back." They aren't saying that about one thousand, one hundred, or even one dollar. They are doing what they can as much as they can.

There is no magical "club funds" sitting around waiting to be claimed. It's all being used.

Here is what TH is really asking for, whether she realizes it or not: TH wants the clubs and TDs to take a bigger share of the finite tournament expenses and use them subidize the women't entry fees so that it is cheaper for women to play in the FPO division.

I'm not sure that will work. I have a question: is "REC" really just "Cash", or are you looking for a "Reasonable Expectation to Make a Profit"? If you look at the bottom line, you will see that about 1% of the male professional players have a REtMaP when they go to a tournament, so it really isn't any dofferent for the gals.

There just isn't any outside money in disc golf. If you keep raising entry fees for MPO and FPO in hopes of having a bigger payout, you will price your players out of the event and have a smaller payout again. If you lower the entry fee to have a bigger field, then the payout is still small. That's just how it is.

Disc golf is supposed to be fun. Lower entry fees and bigger fields, IMHO, are more fun. Taking money out of any division and adding it to another isn't as fun. Play for fun.

Rhett,
I don't disagree with anything you just said.

I think it's important that all men in this sport admit that we've got a serious problem with lack of female participation (I'd argue lack of minority participation as well, but we'll save that for another thread.) Obviously we cannot address the problem without having first admitted it's existence.

I would argue that we should use a disproportionally higher percentage of added cash for the pro women. (Mike Barnett began doing this last year for the women at The Players Cup and we had an incredible four-way battle the final round!) I'd argue that clubs should reward their female participants by paying their entry occasionally. I'd argue that men should organize 50/50 tournaments to sponsor big women's events. I think it's critical to have "Saddie Hawkins" mixed doubles events where the women choose their male partners. I think that pro men should volunteer to put their names into a hat and have amateur women draw for free caddies. I think that women's player's packages should have an extra something special just for them. I think that all women should be recognized at awards ceremonies. I think that we should go above and beyond expectations in every way we can think of to let the women know how grateful we are to have them.

Many/most of these things are being done by TD's around the country. I think it's important that they're done ALL the time. But beyond the tournament scene, the most important thing we can do is to clean up the parks. For the women, the kids, the spectators, and potential sponsors we've got to either co-opt the unfriendly, criminal "locals" or run them out.
LET THE VALS SURF!!!

I've always thought that I write pretty clearly. Why is everyone having a hard time understanding my simple solution?



I think I get it. Especially with regards to your concept of the REC - Reasonable Expectation to Cash. If there's a women's pro field of 7 or 8 golfers, and Des, Val, and Burl are playing, and the tournament is only paying the top 3 golfers, then you have no expectation to cash.

This differs greatly from men's Open in that if there are touring players at an event there are usually enough other golfers in the field that there are a significant number of paying spots, which give lower rated golfers at least a fighting chance to cash. Imagine that in every sanctioned tournament you played in, you faced Climo, Schultz and Feldberg and the tournament only paid out three places. You'd quickly re-think playing in sanctioned events.



Again.....this all leads back to not enough women in the sport and I do think the issue will not get resolved until there are more women playing Pro.....go look at the Advanced Women's ratings......the top 60 of them, have better ratings than 1/2 the Pro women.

No, it really is about the Reasonable Expectation to take ANY cashing spot. With travel costs, I am fully aware DG isn't about profit but for a select ladies out there, myself not being one of them. You see, my favorite emotion is anticipation, and without a hope to cash - as in the Hambrick - my anticipation dies and a lot of enthusiasm for the event goes along with it.

Go ahead and tell me to just play for fun. That's what I'll do this weekend - play in Lansing for fun because there I have an REC. I'll stay away from your NTs because there is little concern how big or small the women's field is anyway, so one more little pro woman surely will not be missed. We're a dime a dozen.

I pray that my girl Liz cashes at the Hambrick this weekend. She can be the Howard Roark to my Gail Wynand - prove me wrong against all expectations. Then I'll eat crow on the board happily and play in NTs again.

By the way, Rhett, when you experience what it's like to have 23 of the 29 tournaments you've played this year have 2 or less competitors, then we can talk about how similar the women's and men's divisions are.

By the way, Rhett, when you experience what it's like to have 23 of the 29 tournaments you've played this year have 2 or less competitors, then we can talk about how similar the women's and men's divisions are.



I am pretty sure you have the option of competing against the men in a comparable division. that in reality is the MOST gender-fair/equality solution. will you win plastic? yup. will you have a higher REC(lol) than if you played Pro? maybe it would probably be more fun than playing against one other chick.

so what you really want is for a lot more women to play(we all want that), BUT, you don't want all of them to get really good, because then your back to square one with you having a low chance to cash- and you'd still not go play tournaments then(based on your given reasons) because >50% of the field had a significant advantage on you.

PS- I agree with Rhett. last I checked most clubs are already putting what money into tournaments they can afford to. Where is this subsidy for the pro women going to come from?





Disc golf is supposed to be fun. Lower entry fees and bigger fields, IMHO, are more fun. Taking money out of any division and adding it to another isn't as fun. Play for fun.



QFT!!!

I heard you may not be playing USWDGC...how come? Your enthusiasm for REC definately falls into place there, and you're definitely good enough to cash at USWDGC even with the hoards of Top Pro's there! I think if you believed in yourself more you'd be able to cash more even with some top Pro's around. Sarah, you're an awesome player.

Luke, I'd have a higher REP if I played Am Men, not REC. I've got a lot of plastic, thanks, and last time I checked I'm not a man and have no interest in competing against them.

Please provide the quote in which I said I want more women to play, but don't want them to get really good. I'd love to hear that sentence in my own words, because then I'll know I really do have a split personality who writes things I'm not aware of. I'd love a lot of chicks who are really good, because I'm really good and we'd have mighty battles. I just don't shoot 1000+ rated rounds like the top girls, so I'd call them Exceptionally Great instead of Really Good. Different categories and I can certainly compete in the latter. There are a few other girls on their way into the former category: it would certainly be difficult to beat Kathy Manly these days and Emily Hardy is proving to be truly formidable. But even those two girls wouldn't deter me from playing a tourney with them - unless the field was Kathy, Emily, Val, Burl, Des, Angela and me - and the entry was $100+ and the TD was only paying out 3 spots and giving $1000+ to charity.

I'm still not sure whether I'll go to Women's Nats or not. Falls on a bad weekend for me, but it could work out. We'll see.

Well I do hope you'll get to go to Peoria. It's tons of fun and lots of partying:)

I may see you Sunday, or may not. Depending on how my first chiro visit goes this afternoon.....and I hope you don't hold anything I've said personally.

I'm going to say one more thing, and then I MIGHT be done with this thread as I think I've said all I have to say and it's degenerating into a Bash Sarah thread.

Please, everyone, please stop being so generalized when you talk of women. There are distinct groups of us: Top Pros, MidLevel Pros, New Stuggling Pros, Solid Ams, Newbies and Unplaying girls. This thread has flittered from addressing one group then the next, not differentiating between any of them. The reason we are different from men is that there are only a limited number of girls in each category and therefore poor attendence in each division across the nation, unlike men who have hoardes in each category and can move around divisions with ease.

I have been speaking from my own position of MidLevel Pro. Many of you have endless enthusiasm for the Newbies and Non-Playing girls when you speak of clinics, leagues and giving plastic away. Everyone has endless enthusiasm for the Top Girls, trying to get them to their events, feeling honored just for being in their presence and generally viewing a tourney as a success if a few of them come. The Solid Ams are pretty much on track improving and getting sweet players packs and usually getting almost the whole field paid out in smaller events.

Who does this leave? In my personal opinion, the most important, yet most ignored groups: MidLevel Pros and New Struggling Pros. MidLevel Pros are just fine at local events, but you must see that we are not travelling very far for NTs because of low REC and all the aforementioned reasons. New Struggling Pros will rarely play NTs or A tiers and their position is precarious even at local events when they face the MidLevels. If you truly want to grow the Pro Women's division, it is these two groups you must address and encourage, not with empty words, but financially, since money is the barrier holding us back. We aren't really about port-a-potties or clinics or free plastic. We are about finding enough competition and having the hope we are not playing tournaments sacrificially.

That is the crux of what I've had to say here. Yes, it comes from a my own personal situation, but when I hear voices lamenting on "How can we get more women to play?" All I can answer for is how you can get me - a woman, exactly the person you are asking - to play in big events like the Hambrick. It's a very specific argument with very specific solutions for specific events and generalizing only makes it confusing to people.

If the subsidizing entry fees idea doesn't go over, at least I've identified a battle of Pro Women out there, fought for it and then I've lost. What more can I do?

A sincere wish for good luck with your effort to improve the lot of the mid level women pros, what you are doing is commendable and I wish you nothing but success in finding a solution for this problem that affects you and others.

My wife and daughter play PDGA tourneys, so I am acutely aware of the situation. And I do try to encourage more women to play any time I can. And I've been called a "woman hater" and chastised to no end for "discoraging women from playing" whenever I've tried to get the FPM players to play FPO so that there would be one decent sized pro women's divsion instead of a 1-3 player FPO division and a 3-5 person FPM division at the same event, so I don't even bother with that anymore. :p

The previous history lesson was presented just to try and let you know that I have been involved with the struggles of the women's division in disc golf, and I'm not just spouting off with no experience. :)

But I've also run tournaments with all divisions in them, and the MPO division is also suffering mightily from a lack of added cash to the payouts. Notable exceptions are USDGC, The Memorial, and a couple of others, but the vast majority of tournaments really don't have payouts representative of the skill displayed by our top pros. But that's just where we are as a hobby sport with almost no outside cash. And the mid-level pro men also have a very low REC if "The Tour" comes to town and adds 3-6 more 1000+ rated players than usual to the field.

The Hambrick Results: Des wins with Val three strokes behind. Then an eight stroke gap and a mighty battle for the 3rd and 4th cashing spots between Angela, Burl and Elaine.

Then a 16 stroke gap.

The Liz's and Lisa fight a mighty battle for no cash.

Suzette Nance, bless her donating heart, finishes 21 strokes behind 8th place and 57 strokes behind Des.

And so I smugly say, "I told you so."

I cashed for $106.54 in Lansing and had a fantastic time.

So my next venture is to coordinate all the MidLevels out there to play the events that the Top Girls won't be at. If the Lizs and Lisa and even Suzette had come to Lansing instead, then we'd have had a field of 6 with three cashing spots and not a single dominant player......excellent REC all around.

There's spots open on the women's committee....maybe it's time to do something with it.

this is the bash sarah thread not

a bragging about sarah thread

gosh get it right

So my next venture is to coordinate all the MidLevels out there to play the events that the Top Girls won't be at.



That's a good idea. Kind of like the NIKE Tour for aspiring PGA pros in ball golf. Hope it works.

Wow, so I happen to stumble upon this thread and just thought I would throw my $.02 in. Sarah, you rock. If you doubt that for even a moment, stop, re-read this post and change your mind. I have only gotten to play with a little at '05 worlds. I don't even think we played an actual round together, but I can tell you have an awesome game. As for the post on page 7, I completely take what you said as compliment but I will tell you this, you are definitely a force at any event. Having said all of this, I agree with you also. I consider myself a mid level pro. I haven't won anything major. I pay for all of my own travel. I am in no way rich either. It is my way to escape reality for a weekend here and there. I am fortunate enough to be able to work while I am away via laptop. I have never broke even on my expenses. In my observation one of the problems with women in the sport is that, as a whole, I believe women are less competitive. I have witnessed many occasions where a bad experience or a little cat fighting happens and they swear off tournaments all together. There is also the classic girl who breaks up with her boyfriend and quits playing. I have no clue how to get more women to play, but I always try to be encouraging. Anyhow, just wanted to drop off my two pennies. By the way, you are a great writer !

Sarah, I see where you are coming from and applaud you. It has to be hard to know your not going to cash when the top pros are coming. However, I think what Disc golf lacks is not te events making it easier to get you there, but a lack of sponsors for the mid rang women pro's. If anything, I think the disc golf community (stores, disc manufactures, clothing etc.) are the ones who should be helping out with this. If sponsors were putting money more into the sport and the players and not just the top 1% then it would make it easier to be a touring pro.

If you look at the PGA it's not just he winners of the events that have sponsors. Almost all touring players have some sort of sponsorship. Maybe what the womens group needs to do is make a commitee to try and get more pro women sponsors on board.

Another idea is to form a Non profit for this reason alone. It would not be impossible to raise 1000$ a year for touring women players and create your own sponsorship comittee.

Just wondering what this thread is all about when Sarah goes to Eric C Yetter and is tied with Des AND Val after 2 rounds....hmmmmm....so what was this thread about? :) REC looks like it's in effect there....

Way to play Sarah, I'm rooting for you!

Of course, Yetter is abnormal for an A-tier with entry fees subsidized for women at just $35 and I believe they may pay deeper than normal also making it a little easier decision for lower rated FPOs to give it a shot. It's a great set of 36 holes also.

Oh ok well that makes a little more sense then. But still, I know Sarah is a really great player. She does have chances to cash when all the top Pro's are there. The Eric C Yetter is proof. Anyone know what the final results were? They aren't updated yet.

Sarah did a great job hanging with the top gals and finished in the money just behind Des.

Nice job cashing Sarah! Hey Sarah are you playing USWDGC? I hope to see you there winning some cash!

hey Sarah...here are some tips for ya.

if you don't think you're going to have a chance of cashing even before you go to the event by just looking at names, then it sounds like your Mental game is NOT where it should be to compete on the professional level. I always believe that i can win an event no matter what women are there, is that always a rational thought, maybe not, but it's a positive one.

if $$ and competition is what you seek in the tournaments you choose, than playing local events might be best for you now. Disc Golf in the Women's Professional division is the wrong sport at this time if you trying to make out equally in expenses vs. earnnings.

maybe you should play in charity events, than at least you might not feel so bad about not cashing, and feel good about what you're doing, instead of thinking about the $$ you may or may not win

i am surprised that you didn't have anything to say about the MSDGC payouts??? Only paying out 6 of 15 women with TONS of $$$$$$ to payout.....i would have thought by reading your previous comments that you would have been highly vocal about that. oh, but you cashed.

i agree with some thoughts you have, but not with your tone.

You should play the USWDGC in Peoria!!!!

This is hands down THE best event for women. Your REC is very good, too. However, this is one of the few events I will travel to every single year, even without a REC. It is always worth the trip. There are many other ladies who also come year after year because they too know it is worth the trip.

This event provides so much for the ladies: scorekeepers for each group, free lunch all three days, free Hog Roast on Saturday night, discount admission to the Comedy Club on Friday night and free breakfast every morning if you stay at the awesome host hotel. Plus you get to play fun and challenging courses with lots of different ladies that you don't get see every weekend. You can even find a place to stay or camp for free with the locals.

I hope it is not too late for you to make this event. This will be the last year the event is held in Peoria. I hope the event will be just as good in Huntsville, but that is an unknown.

Again I hope to see you and every other woman who has a free weekend in Peoria. I will make a bold statement that if you come, Sarah, you will cash. But most of all, you will have fun and get to see what makes this one of the most special events of the year.

Peoria Rocs!!!

Just swinging by to drop off 2 more pennies. I agree with a lot of what frisbeepeacegirl said. You have to go into every event with a positive attitude. It's not always the easiest thing to do but you are much better off for it. It is very intimidating to play against the top women, but for me, if I enter the tournament with a good attitude and remind myself that I am there for fun and that if I play as best as I can that day, then I have met my goal. Right now, this game is not profitable and I would be willing to bet that the profit the top women make isn't even close to what it would take to live on at least decently. Besides, I have noticed that at every tournament there is at least one "upset" that happens. You know, where a much lower rated player finishes top 5 or so and a higher rater player is below that. I sometimes go into a weekend thinking, I want that to be me! It hasn't really happened yet but someday it will and I am not going to get any better by turning away from events because there are better women than me entered.

Oh, and hi frisbeepeacegirl! I miss you!!!Hope all is well for you guys and best of luck on everything!

Hey, thanks everyone for the support and good cheer during the Yetter. Yeah, I was hanging tough after Saturday with my stellar 953 and 934 rounds, but all Val and Des had to do on Sunday was throw up 980+ rated rounds and that was it for me, who has never thrown a round above 963. I did, however, hit a cop car on a shank that flew OB, so that was pretty cool.

I have said all along that I am willing to travel to events that subsidize entry fees, just like the Yetter did. It's so much easier to swallow putting $35 out there instead of a hundred and seeing the SuperPros show up in force. Plus the Yetter had a good REC, paying out 4 and sporting only 3 SuperPros, so the lovely anticipation was present. GREAT JOB to the Bucks County WhiteTails for their continued understanding and support of midlevel women.

As for the MSDGC, the REC was exceptional there, too, with only 2 SuperPros and 6 cashing spots, leaving 4 cash spots wide open to any of the rest of us to battle for. What would I possibly have to say against this tournament? Everything about the MSDGC is top-notch, including the hospitality, course maintenence and payouts.

As far as the other comments go.....I really would prefer it if people could refrain from telling me where my mental game should be. I went into Sunday's round at the Yetter with good sleep, a good breakfast and a good attitude. I said to myself, "Today could be the day I shoot my best round ever. Today I could shoot a thousand rated round." And then I didn't. Should I get super mad and kick my bag and throw my chair and swear and annoy the other girls on my card because my mental game told me I could play great golf and then I didn't? I have NEVER put up a 980 rated round, and Des and Val have had dozens. I would assume that Des and Val are not best pleased with their game when they shoot under their ratings of 964 and 959, while I revel in glory when I shoot anything over 935. So my mental game, which I am comfortable with, tells me that in order to beat such a competitor, I must play exceptionally for 4 rounds and also rely on the SuperPros to put up disapointing scores for me to win. Please don't tell me that's a bad attitude because I am nothing but logical and patient for my game to improve and the excellent round ratings to finally arrive.

Finally, telling me that playing locally makes more sense for me, Lesli, is probably the right advice, but other girls will read this and say, "Yes, travelling far for a tourney is not right for women. I'll stay home after all." Is it really good advice to deter women from travelling? Also, telling me to play in charity events and donate money to them in order to feel good is presumptious at best. One would have to assume that I support charities and this would be an incorrect assumption. No need to try and bash me on this as I'm comfortable in my belief system and am willing to explain the logic behind it to willing ears.

Again, thanks for the kind words and ego boost from the recent posts. The USWDGC? Well.....the Charlotte Open is sporting 4 girls with ratings under 870, so the REC is outstanding there and I'm thinking about that, but what a long drive! Peoria is a bit closer and the Toaster is tired so maybe I'll be able to catch a ride down there. I'll decide later.

Figured I should change the title to more accurately describe this thread.

Why you gotta hate so much, Daemon?

Just pointing out...

Did you take your anti-passive/aggressive pills today?

You know until your last post, I thought I understood where you were coming from. I understand having to pay for travel to have the chance to compete against other women players. I understand not wanting to simply donate to the top pros, but to actually have a chance to take home some cash. But the fact you would drive all the way to Charlotte to beat up on 4 local girls with ratings under 880 when you can take a shorter drive to Peoria and have the chance to compete with at least 21 other Pro Women from around the country is mind boggling.

Are you really just in this for the money? What happened to having fun along with enjoying some good competition? You might not like Peoria after all. The USWDGC is more about sharing the experience than who wins!

Hey SuccuBUZZ dont you have a great paying job in which you can work as many or as little hours as you please??? I mean that is that case isnt it??? And if it is then why does it matter what you make or dont make at ANY tournament??? If your finacialy stable it shouldnt matter whether you cash or not..........I mean take a look at me for example.........I deliver pizza and in a GOOD month I may make 900 dollar and with a car insurance payment and a cell phone bill and gas to pay for and all the other bills I have I dont even think about REC.........I could care less..........Disc golf is fun and its what keeps me sane so I dont care if I cash and sometimes if I dont im eating Ramen noodles and putting 5 dollars at a time in my gas tank to make it to my next check............But thats just how it is...........I agree with just about everyone else when I say you must be playing for the wrong reasons........Do you not enjoy showing up to a tournament and playing golf no matter what the outcome??? Why not just play for fun and go out and recruit more women to play??? Then your divisions will be bigger and you will be able to cash more often??? Either that or spend a little extra travel money and go to the big tournaments where there are more women and a higher REC...........Oh and you complaining about how you cant cash being a sponsored and expierienced pro also deters more women from joining your ranks and in turn just perpetuates the system!!!

Hey SuccuBUZZ dont you have a great paying job in which you can work as many or as little hours as you please??? I mean that is that case isnt it??? And if it is then why does it matter what you make or dont make at ANY tournament??? If your finacialy stable it shouldnt matter whether you cash or not.......... ...........Oh and you complaining about how you cant cash being a sponsored and expierienced pro also deters more women from joining your ranks and in turn just perpetuates the system!!!



Some valid points along with Discettes comments. You do make it sound like you play more for the money than the fun and enjoyment.

Sarah...if you really care about cashing...you should go to USWDGC....you have a greater chance of taking home so much more money from there. But then again, you may not have fun with just a bunch of girl discgolfers....

Haven't you all considered that single girls like to go to tourneys with boys present? Especially ones where Cale goes...? I'm not going to Charlotte, don't worry, I didn't think y'all were going to jump down my throat when I pointed out that an A-tier had such a field at such an amazing course. If I can catch a ride, I'll probably end up in Peoria.

I'm starting to suspect I need to steer clear of this thread. My opinion might be taken a bit too seriously and it made me wonder last weekend if women are treating me differently because of it. I'm a pretty nice person when I'm not pulling pranks on the boys, but I'm also a person who likes to make people think about other perspectives other than what's popular to think and say.

How funny that girls aren't supposed to be motivated by cash! Of course I'm motivated by cash and am not ashamed of it at all! You're all right, though; tough competition and good battles at tourneys isn't fun - it's something more than fun for me. The intensity of competition in a structured format is more like a mental journey into a very difficult place where control and decision making are paramount, where the highs and lows are more extreme and where time loses its meaning. Structured competition gives me something more than fun, but I can't tell you what it is unless you've felt it for yourself. Then you'd know. For some of us, it's more fulfilling than fun. Fun is for the casual rounds and for mountain biking.

And just to illustrate that I am a nice person, I still say "NICE SHOT" when a competitor makes a long putt or parks a drive, which is more than some other girls I've played with recently could manage. I think when you lose the ability to verbally admire someone else's game, then you really have lost something in disc golf.

Sarah, I've played with you enough to know you are a nice person. And you've definately got game! I'm just trying to push you towards playing Peoria because of those facts. You have such a value to your game and I know, not think, that you will cash in Peoria! I've never lost any admiration in your game, and know you have fun while you are playing. But for some reason when reading this thread it sounds a little different.

Sarah, do what ever it takes to go to Peoria next week.

You can find that intensity of competition that you desire, as you would be competing against the largest Pro Women's field outside of Worlds. There are also plenty of guys at the event volunteering their time as scorekeepers, caddies, etc. They are there to make your experience the best it can be.

Saying nice shot shows you have good sportsmanship. I'm sorry to hear the ladies you have been playing with of late are not good sports as well. Come to Peoria and set an example for all the other women. Take the time to share your unique view of life. You may be surprised to learn you are not that different after all.

There are now 23 Pro Women signed up for USWDGC. Online registration closes on Monday.

Hope to see you there.

Erin, you wanna give me a ride? When are you leaving and coming back?

I'll ask Liz, too, since she lives so close to me. I don't have Ketz's phone number; if any of you guys have it, PM it my way, K?

I do have room in my car if you would like to ride with us. It's just me and Jonna. I am not sure there is room in the hotel room though :( I'm rooming with Sharon Jenkins and a few other people I don't know. Jonna is rooming with someone named Sport? Not sure who that is. But I'm sure you could find someone to stay with there! We are leaving Wednesday night after work like 5:30pm and coming home Monday morning.

Erin, you wanna give me a ride? When are you leaving and coming back?

I'll ask Liz, too, since she lives so close to me. I don't have Ketz's phone number; if any of you guys have it, PM it my way, K?



I PMed you JenK's # too.

If you need a place to stay, contact Ladydiscer - Cory Hill.

I don't have her contact info, but you can send her a PM. She has made several posts on the 2007 USWDGC thread. There is usually free camping at Old Man's house as well. Cory should be able to help you out.

USWDGC Thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=654205&an=0&page=0#Post6 54205)

You can always stay with Taylor, I'm sure he'd enjoy that

<font color="green"> uniTTy!!!

Keep preachin' sister...all the great ones were ostracized before they were truly heard. The fact that millZ is arguing against you is to your advantage...I think you know that. We got yo back. </font>

If a woman player's number one concern is winning money, registering early for this event should be a top priority. This looks to be the best women's payout this year with added cash and 60% of the field paid. Also, from what I understand, this event offers the whole package: a super fun weekend complete with camping and extracurricular activities.


Vibram Open at Maple Hill (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=7290)



Only early birds get the cash.

Sarah, there are 19 women signed up to play Roscoe's Revenge in Medina, Ohio, this weekend. 11 of them are rated 900 or below. Cashing is not a lock for you -- someone could shoot way over her head or whatever --but there's a high LOC.

Just an FYI.

hmmm. Sheri's turn.

Not all tournaments are run by clubs. Luke and My tourney is highly supported by people who happen to be in a club or two but there is no club funds. If you want to be a pro chick you lose the advantages given to amatuer women. I think lower prices for Am's divisions is a good thing. It lowers their payout but it brings out more girls.

I would love to have open women at our event. I WOULD LOVE TO HAVE PRO WOMEN AT MY EVENT. But, I will not pay you to come and hang out with me. That is what I kinda would feel like if I had to go into my pocket to make up your tournment fee.

I would however feed you, put you up, hook you with a shower, water you, beer you, smoke you yada yada yada. I will put added monies into your division. Women not only get port a pottie but they get their own port a potty. I will make you Sheri gifts and provide you with snacks. But I will not pay you tournament fee.

In two weeks this 830 rated player is going head to head with ALL of you open girls. Do I have a prayer in heaven of even finishing within 40 strokes of the winner??? HELL NO!! Will there ever be a Vibram that I don't particepate in? HELL NO!!

Why? Cuz I love golf. I love to watch frisbees fly and I love to play with the best of the best. My most memorable moments in my disc golf career? Playing my first round of Marshall street with freaking Steve Brinster. Playing a random round with Dave Feldburg in Vegas. Tieing Elaine King in match play at the Can Am cup. Watching Burl hurl of the Hambrick's dam. Having Avery Jenkins know me by name. Drinking porter with Kelly Boycle & Kristin Weidel. Getting to hang out with Geoff Bennett, Cale, & Mitch by being Geoff's caddy at the Vibram last year/ Notice no where does it say kicking so and so 's bottom.

I guess we all golf for our own reasons.

Just remember to thank me while someone else is spending my player fee. (The whole amount- thank you.)

After church I was chatting with the musicians, two of whom play a little disc golf.

Dude: So how good is Kelsey anyway?
Me: Number 1 amateur woman in the world.
Dude: So why doesn't she go pro?
Ben: Dude, a pro woman can make tens of dollars playing disc golf.

lol