When putting signage in for a course, distance is an important part. We will be replacing the signs we have now because we have added additional pin placements.

What is the preferred method of measuring distance? I question some of the distances on our signs now. They were taken with GPS, but they don't seem real accurate to me.

Is using a distance wheel the preferred method? How do you account for changes in elevation - especially when throwing over a gulley?

Is GPS accurate? Doesn't GPS measure 'as the crow flies' and neglect turns?

Also, we have one hole called '2 roads' It is called this because there are two paths to the hole - left and right. Straight through is not a viable option. How should distance be done in this instance?

I think using a laser rangefinder is better than GPS or wheel since it measures the actual route(s) a disc can fly on a hole. Measure the routes about 5-10 feet off the tightest corners a disc can fly. If it's a gold level hole and players can go over the top, then measure that route. However, if it's a red level hole don't measure over the top, but the main fairway route most will take. Same situation when the straight line route is over water. If most players of the skill level can clear it, then use the straight line. If not, then work your way around the water the way players will do at a lower skill level.

Laser range finders work well for measuring distance....especially when there is elevation in the course design. Wheels tend to add artificial length to a measurement because of the topography. If you acquire a laser range finder, it helps to have someone hold a large piece of white posterboard (or something similar) so the person with the range finder can easily spot the target in the viewfinder. If one cannot see the green from the tee (i.e. dogleg fairway), measure the fairway in sections (i.e. tee to dogleg...then dogleg to green). Most range finders will provide distance in yardage, thus, the conversion to "footage" will need to be calculated.

As for the split fairway, if there is only one distance to be displayed on the tee sign, measure the most widely-used fairway. If both routes are played equally, measure the shorter of the two routes.

Is GPS accurate? Doesn't GPS measure 'as the crow flies' and neglect turns?

Consumer level GPS's can be accurate to +/- 5 ft or so and don't work very well in heavily wooded areas. IMO a lase rangefinder is the best method, followed by a _good_ wheel (large wheel is optimal for rolling over obstructions). Better GPSes can measure your walked path (vs as the crow flies). Measure the path down the center of the fairway.


Also, we have one hole called '2 roads' It is called this because there are two paths to the hole - left and right. Straight through is not a viable option. How should distance be done in this instance?

Are you labeling the routes on your tee signs? If so then include both distances. If not then include the closest or the most typical route.

Another pet peeve is people marking distances to the foot instead of 5 feet increments. 388 to 392 should be marked as 390. With players allowed to tee from anywhere on a pad that's 10-15 feet long, please just round it off to end in 5 or 0. (except for maybe nasty holes that are 666 :eek:)

chuck- to what end? why not measure to the foot from a given point (that being the front of the tee)?

None of the measuring methods are that accurate. GPS, wheel and laser get within 3 feet at best. Add that to the fact that players don't release at the front line on many holes where side and even back are more desireable. Even using a tape can be tough for some routes. We also don't have disc choices that have a subtlety of distance such that I use disc A for 387 and disc B for 391. Same reason we round off holes with a scoring avg of 3.2 to a Par 3 and 3.8 to par 4. Just seems like rounding to the nearest five is sufficient accuracy.

I find that, given a choice, 99% of the people I play with (including myself) tee off from the front 8 inches of the pad 95% of the time. Maybe there's a hole with a sketchy alternate route, that has a different preferred tee spot, but that is usually not the norm.

I use a laser finder and park may car on the pad. Shooting at a big yellow truck gets pretty accurate readings.

If it's a par 4, I park the car at the dogleg and shoot it from tee and target, and then add about 4 feet to make up for the thickness of the vehicle. Oh yeah, I park it perpendicular to have the largest flattest object to shoot at.

I think you should shoot the measurements 5 times, write them down and take an average. No rounding up or down.

Laser finders shooting up hill will give you longer distances than are actually point A to B on flat ground. the elevation adds feet, but in a magnified manner, where just shooting the distance may not actually give you a good gauge of the height to length ratio. On steep holes, figure out an object that is the same distance as the tee (like a tree) and shoot at that object on a flat plane. It will give you an idea of how far the hole is vs how long the flight is to the target.

Marshall street adds elevation change, which is one of the coolest hole stats to have, bar none.

Horizontal distance isn't the correct distance on hills which is why using GPS will under estimate the distance. The laser distance is the correct number to use for hole distance since that's the straight line flight path. Elevation changes on a hole is another reason to just round off the distances to the nearest five feet because the effective length a player must throw has to account for the roughly 3-to-1 elevation differential which must be added or subtracted to the measured length to truly determine the equivalent throwing length.

First course I saw elevation on hole signs was when Waterworks opened in KC in the 90s. Good number to have if available. Unfortunately, you probably need a surveyor to get the elevations because GPS isn't accurate enough and topo maps many times don't have enough detail for disc golf. Most people seem to estimate elevation differences as greater than they really are by maybe twice as much unless they are experienced in comparing their estimates to actuals.

A (except for maybe nasty holes that are 666 :eek:)



We do have a hole that is listed as 216 ft.


It seems that everyone agrees on the laser range finder. Can anyone recommend a good one at a decent price?

Most of the course designers whose rangefinders I've seen are Bushnell Yardage Pros and that's what the PDGA owns. I have a 400 and a pocket version which is a little less accurate and useful for preliminary design work. You'll probably spend at least $150 for a decent one.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/bushnell-sport-450-laser-rangefinder.html

You can sometimes find them at Walmart or FleetFarm in the hunting section.

Another pet peeve is people marking distances to the foot instead of 5 feet increments. 388 to 392 should be marked as 390. With players allowed to tee from anywhere on a pad that's 10-15 feet long, please just round it off to end in 5 or 0. (except for maybe nasty holes that are 666 :eek:)



A better thing to get all uptight about would be for courses that have multiple basket locations to figure out a way to identify the basket location on the tee sign that is somewhat vandalism free.

Most laser range finders have a range minimum of 5-10 yards and have an accuracy of +/- 1 yard!

Not vandalism free but pegs and bolts thru holes in the tee sign seem to be the most common for identifying pins. I haven't seen it done yet, but a padlock thru holes near the edge of the sign would be pretty vandalism free.

a padlock thru holes near the edge of the sign would be pretty vandalism free.



Doesn't sound too asthetically pleasing. Perhaps a through-pin with a hole drilled in the end of the shaft so that you could put a padlock through it behind the sign and out of sight.

My course has 3 pin placements. We have a dial on the post below our teesigns, maybe 4 inches square with A, B, and C arrows. A bolt through the middle of it, that's just loose enough to be able to spin easily, but not too loose that it could be ripped off. We've had these up for close to 2 years now, and no problems with anyone messing with them.

That sounds even better :D

My course has 3 pin placements.



I didn't know Tyler State Park was your property. ;) :D

My course has 3 pin placements. We have a dial on the post below our teesigns, maybe 4 inches square with A, B, and C arrows. A bolt through the middle of it, that's just loose enough to be able to spin easily, but not too loose that it could be ripped off. We've had these up for close to 2 years now, and no problems with anyone messing with them.



Brilliant idea by groundskeeper willie!

My course has 3 pin placements.



I didn't know Tyler State Park was your property. ;) :D



Furthermore, as a PA resident, i think the course is more Jeff's than it's yours, Alan..Sorry, you lose.

I recently measured out a new 18-hole course using a 2-foot diameter (big) wheel, pacing, and GPS. It was pretty close to ideal conditions for all three - mostly open skies and mowed grass, fairly level. I found that all three methods came very close to each other - by which I mean usually within 2% (an eight foot difference in measured lengths on a 400 foot hole). Pacing was most often in disagreement with the other two, but not by much. (I've practiced a lot.) The biggest source of "errors" was forgetting to measure a particular length. Also, the GPS distances did not account for the added length of a dogleg, as expected.

If you don't have a laser rangefinder, and the ground is smooth enough, I think the wheel is good enough - for all the reasons Chuck gave for rounding to 5 feet.

I agree that laser rangefinder is the best. But, if you have a GPS, i would suggest using it to mark all the tees and targets anyway. For one, you can graph the points, so it tells you directions as well as lengths. 2. GPS can fill in the distances you forget to measure (if you absolutely can't get back to re-do it). 3. You can compute non-critical distances - like target to next tee, parking lot to first tee, ninth target to bathrooms, etc. without a lot of work. 4. GPS will give you a rough check of the distances you recorded. For example, if you forgot to add the second part of a dogleg to the total distance for a hole, the GPS distance will be a lot different than the laser.

I think the GPS distances will be more accurate if you mark the tees and holes in order, one right after the other. If you mark a tee, then a couple of hours later mark the target, the GPS signal has probably shifted to mess up the relative positions of the two.

However, even though I would recommend using a GPS, I would not TRUST a GPS for the final distances, especially in the trees. I've seen it be off by 40 feet or more.

On another point, elevation changes add surprisingly little to the point-to-point distance, compared to the horizontal distance. For example, take a hole that measures 400 feet horizontally (GPS, or on a map). If the target were 80 feet above (or below) the tee, the actual point-to-point distance (laser rangefinder, or wheel) would be only 408 feet.

One of the guys in our club has a 200ft tape. Has anyone used something like that? We are searching for someone who has a rangefinder nearby.

Measuring by wheel is absolutely out: Lots of elevation change, uneven terrain, and a few holes where you throw over a ravine.

I've got a 300' tape that I use sometimes. It is good for certain situations. If your area is really rough like you say, it will prove to be difficult using the tape if you try it alone. With a few extra hands (and bodies) you can get it done pretty accurately with the tape.

Is GPS accurate? Doesn't GPS measure 'as the crow flies' and neglect turns?

Consumer level GPS's can be accurate to +/- 5 ft or so and don't work very well in heavily wooded areas. IMO a lase rangefinder is the best method, followed by a _good_ wheel (large wheel is optimal for rolling over obstructions). Better GPSes can measure your walked path (vs as the crow flies). Measure the path down the center of the fairway.


Also, we have one hole called '2 roads' It is called this because there are two paths to the hole - left and right. Straight through is not a viable option. How should distance be done in this instance?

Are you labeling the routes on your tee signs? If so then include both distances. If not then include the closest or the most typical route.



You are almost correct about GPS devices. Consumer grade GPS will get you within +/- 10 feet. Some may say +/- 5 feet. But that is a load of crap. I have been surveying for over 8 years and had over 6 years working with GPS. I have seen base stations with antennas not get within 5 feet depending on foliage and time of day.
But I do however agree with you 100 percent that use of a laser range finder is the best tool for the job!

But I have been told always measure along the "as the crow flies" route. Even if the hole has a major dogleg that cannot be thrown over or through. I completely disagree with that statement. But that is what I have been told by local pros here.

If the hole is designed so that going over the top is an intended route for the skill level the hole is designed for, then using the straight line "crow flies" length is OK. Otherwise, follow the dogleg. The Cros we throw follow that route anyway.

Thanks Chuck, that is what I thought too.
Nice joke also!!

Take care!

So, please, a direct answer...with hills (we gots lots here in KC), eg Water Works #1....is the proper distance taken as straight from the pad to the pin, or following the terrain?

Simply asked, on hills, straight line or follow the topo??

steve

Straight line since a disc flight doesn't have to follow the topo unless a low ceiling forces low line drives and/or rollers.

thanks, Chuck...

Sorry for a possible repeat question; but for measuring a steady uphill or downhill hole, do you measure a straight line with the slope (would be hypotenuse) or along an imaginary straight line between the two points extending up from the tee pad and the post of the basket. I have heard measuring both are correct, but it does not make sense to me because I have to throw from point a to point b along the would be hypotenuse line (at least up hill for sure). Thanks for the help

Hypotenuse. That's why strictly using GPS coordinates can be off for measuring length, let alone the fact that GPS coordinates themselves typically aren't more than 15 ft accurate.

Hypotenuse. That's why strictly using GPS coordinates can be off for measuring length, let alone the fact that GPS coordinates themselves typically aren't more than 15 ft accurate.



Chuck I realize what you mean.....
but most hand held GPS devices are accurate to around 15 feet, GPS Coordinates are accurate to the 1/100th of a foot.
And laser range finders are not much better, that is why at the big distance competitions locals should contact a surveyor and ask them to bring out their total station (surveying instrument) and have them measure the throws. Accurate to 0.02 feet (1/4 inch) hence no more unhappy players that land within a few feet of each other.

And laser range finders are not much better,


Lasers are significantly more accurate than typical GPS units (yes, I meant the devices not the coordinates) with an accuracy within 1 yard/meter. They're not necessarily the best for measuring world record throws which can result in a throwoff such as USDGC. As a side note, I find it unnecesary for hole lengths to be listed as ending in any other number but 0 or 5 since players can launch their shot anywhere in a 10-12 ft range on a cement tee pad anyway.

I could not agree more about the tee pads distances Chuck.
I wish you would come explain that to some of the locals I meet in Florida.

But I will say that I would not trust those specs they give you on those laser range finder, must boast to be better than actual. Especially when you get out past 300-400 feet.
I have been in the Surveying profession for nearly 10 years, and I would not trust a laser range finder to measure a room in a house. Too many variables can arise, I.E. human error-pointing inaccurately, laser deflecting off wrong object (closer or farther), and yes lasers can bend if they hit the right angles.....

But a 500' steel tape never lies.

But a 500' steel tape never lies.


Just risky to run it across a murky body of water down there. :D

Anything is risky to do in the murky water down here.
That is why we get paid the big bucks... haha