Hey guys. I just joined the PDGA this year, playing a few sanctioned tournaments last year. One thing I was just curious about, hoping that someone else out there may know the answer to this deals with prizes for amateurs. I don't know a great deal about the accepting cash thing, but as far as I know that only Open division can accept cash. Is this correct?? If so, why can't the amateurs accept cash?? I just played in a tournament the other day, got 4th out of about 28. When I look at the scores, it says that my prize was $82. Now I did get a prize package, but I can't imagine the value of that being more than $50. I am not trying to be greedy, because I'm not in it to make money, I just want to have fun and play. This is the only summer I will be able to do this. So anyway, if anyone could just fill me in on some more information, that would be awesome.

Thanks,
Chad

Amateurs cannot accept cash because TDs aren't offering it. If you were looking for a deeper reason, the profit made on amateurs by paying them in prizes pays for everything else, like sanctioning, insurance, course use fees, trophies, added cash to the pros, printing, and braces for the TD's kid.

Your prize package is valued at retail, not what you'd pay a guy selling his prizes on e-bay. Retail prices are like Star $18, Champion $16, Pro $12, DX $8.

Also, depending on how the TD reported the winnings, you have to factor in the players' pack that all amateurs were given at sign-in to get to your $82.

When I have listed Am payouts in the results, I've included the players' pack. This shows up as the amount that the bottom 50% of the fields "won". The top 50% of the field had their prizes added to that amount.

TD's are NOT allowed to offer Amatuers in prizes instead of cash. The PDGA rules state that if an Am player accepts prizes in lieu of cash that they have turned Pro. Any TD who offers prizes instead of cash is not following PDGA rules and is jeopardizing the Am status of any player who accepts the merchandise.

PDGA Divisions Guide (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/06DivisionsGuide.pdf)

Scroll down to "Turning Pro" to see the official PDGA ruling on Ams accepting prizes.

TD's are NOT allowed to offer Amatuers in prizes instead of cash in a pro division . The PDGA rules state that if an Am player accepts prizes in lieu of cash in a pro division that they have turned Pro. Any TD who offers prizes instead of cash is not following PDGA rules and is jeopardizing the Am status of any player who accepts the merchandise.

PDGA Divisions Guide (http://www.pdga.com/documents/2006/06DivisionsGuide.pdf)

Scroll down to "Turning Pro" to see the official PDGA ruling on Ams accepting prizes.



Ams are most certainly allowed to accept prizes, except for instances that I've added in bold above.

Most TD's do not include the player's pack as part of the posted payout. This is not done at World's and I have never seen the player's pack included at a Super Tour or A Tier event either. It is interesting that you do though. I can see some benefit to it.


Also, depending on how the TD reported the winnings, you have to factor in the players' pack that all amateurs were given at sign-in to get to your $82.

When I have listed Am payouts in the results, I've included the players' pack. This shows up as the amount that the bottom 50% of the fields "won". The top 50% of the field had their prizes added to that amount.

Also, depending on how the TD reported the winnings, you have to factor in the players' pack that all amateurs were given at sign-in to get to your $82.


I really dislike that method for reporting winnings because the Player Pack isn't "winnings". IMO, it seems like a lame way to artificially pump up what the am payout looks like and leads to confusion like the OP is bringing up.

I really wish the PDGA would explicitly address this in the sanctioning agreement so that all events report the payout the same way. When I do payout, it represents what you won and does not include player pack value. There is a spot in the TD report where player pack value gets added in so that your "event value" numbers still reflect it.

As a player, I think there is nothing worse than looking at the payout breakdown and seeing that you should win $85, and then all you get is a 1997 stamped DX disc and 1 Star driver. If my winnings are going to be a 1 DX and 1 Star list the payout value as $26 or whatever, and when people complain explain to them how most of the money was used for players packs, lunches, and whatever. (BTW, I do like good player packs and meals because they go to everybody, and if that's where the money is going I don't mind one bit. I just don't like being told I won thirty bucks worth of stuff when I'm handed a mini for my payout. Tell me my payout is $2 because you had to pay for my steak dinner last night.)

Well, that's how I like to see it. :)

then all you get is a 1997 stamped DX disc



But that '97 stamped DX Disc is worth ALOT on E-Bay.. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Since I don't expect to place "in the money" in any tournaments this year, I love the idea of calling my player's packet "winnings". So now, when the season is over, I can tell my buddies that I have had winnings of over $300 this year! Now I just have to sign up for enough tournaments with big player packets....yeah, baby....it's all about the ego!

Also, depending on how the TD reported the winnings, you have to factor in the players' pack that all amateurs were given at sign-in to get to your $82.


I really dislike that method for reporting winnings because the Player Pack isn't "winnings". IMO, it seems like a lame way to artificially pump up what the am payout looks like and leads to confusion like the OP is bringing up.

I really wish the PDGA would explicitly address this in the sanctioning agreement so that all events report the payout the same way. When I do payout, it represents what you won and does not include player pack value. There is a spot in the TD report where player pack value gets added in so that your "event value" numbers still reflect it.

As a player, I think there is nothing worse than looking at the payout breakdown and seeing that you should win $85, and then all you get is a 1997 stamped DX disc and 1 Star driver. If my winnings are going to be a 1 DX and 1 Star list the payout value as $26 or whatever, and when people complain explain to them how most of the money was used for players packs, lunches, and whatever. (BTW, I do like good player packs and meals because they go to everybody, and if that's where the money is going I don't mind one bit. I just don't like being told I won thirty bucks worth of stuff when I'm handed a mini for my payout. Tell me my payout is $2 because you had to pay for my steak dinner last night.)

Well, that's how I like to see it. :)



I absolutely agree!!!!

I agree with players packages not being listed as winnings. The thing i do not like is entry fees being used for meals. I am a vegetarian and TDs rarely have any vegetarian options, Its usually burgers or some sort of pork. IF a meal is provided it should be sponsored and not be paid with any portion of the entry fees, or the td should provided a vegetarian option. Just my thoughts.

Also, depending on how the TD reported the winnings, you have to factor in the players' pack that all amateurs were given at sign-in to get to your $82.


I really dislike that method for reporting winnings because the Player Pack isn't "winnings". IMO, it seems like a lame way to artificially pump up what the am payout looks like and leads to confusion like the OP is bringing up.

I really wish the PDGA would explicitly address this in the sanctioning agreement so that all events report the payout the same way. When I do payout, it represents what you won and does not include player pack value. There is a spot in the TD report where player pack value gets added in so that your "event value" numbers still reflect it.

As a player, I think there is nothing worse than looking at the payout breakdown and seeing that you should win $85, and then all you get is a 1997 stamped DX disc and 1 Star driver. If my winnings are going to be a 1 DX and 1 Star list the payout value as $26 or whatever, and when people complain explain to them how most of the money was used for players packs, lunches, and whatever. (BTW, I do like good player packs and meals because they go to everybody, and if that's where the money is going I don't mind one bit. I just don't like being told I won thirty bucks worth of stuff when I'm handed a mini for my payout. Tell me my payout is $2 because you had to pay for my steak dinner last night.)

Well, that's how I like to see it. :)



Here is the problem: When people complain, they rarely complain to the TD. They complain to their friends.....and those friends complain to other friends.....and on down the line until your event gets a bad reputation without you ever doing anything wrong or ever getting a chance to explain/clarify.

If you include the players' pack retail value in the payout/prize column, anybody can do a quick calculation and see that you paid out 100%, 120%, 85%, or whatever. It is also easy to see that the bottom 50% all go the same. Simple subtraction will give the reader the amount of performance-based winnings for the top 50%.

It is a form or financial disclosure that cuts down negative assumptions being made. It is a smart thing to do. It is not artificially pumping up the winnings! It is clearly stating that you as a TD delivered. It is not confusing like the OP stated if you use standard retail value (or better yet use merch bucks as your players' pack that can be spent at tournament central for players to get exactly what they want).

The PDGA strips out the AM prizes when the scoring goes "official", so that is the standard/official way that this is reported (long term at least).

I can see your point.

That's also why I asked for the PDGA to exlpicitly state how the am payouts shall be stated, so that we all do it the same way and the players don't have to be detectives to figure it out. TDs are "required" to post the payouts for pros and ams prior to the start of the last round. Let's standardize that posting to whatever way we decide to do it.

Good point on standardizing the way we post at tournaments. Things are busy and players are focused on other things - need to make it straightforward for them.

To clarify one thing: when posting payout at the tournament, I always post the actual merch dollars the Ams will win. I also try to remember to put a note on there such as "Amateurs' Players Pack is worth $X.XX retail value".

What I was talking about above was posting scores and prizes online to the PDGA tour pages.

What I was talking about above was posting scores and prizes online to the PDGA tour pages.


That part doesn't really matter since, for some reason, the am payout amounts are stripped off when the tourney results are processed.

For a long time I used to think that I was the only one who reported the Am payouts, until I looked at some past event results for tourneys I TD'd and the am payout was missing. :)

What I was talking about above was posting scores and prizes online to the PDGA tour pages.


I suspect this is a conscious decision by the PDGA. It might shed an awkward light on things.

It is, James. To keep it looking like Amateurs are the shining paragon of True Amateurism.

God forbid anybody be able to add up all the Am payout, see that it totals $5000, and be able to easily conclude that the ams just sponosored $2000+ to that tournament!

Hey guys. I just joined the PDGA this year, playing a few sanctioned tournaments last year. One thing I was just curious about, hoping that someone else out there may know the answer to this deals with prizes for amateurs. I don't know a great deal about the accepting cash thing, but as far as I know that only Open division can accept cash. Is this correct??<font color="red"> If so, why can't the amateurs accept cash?? </font> I just played in a tournament the other day, got 4th out of about 28. When I look at the scores, it says that my prize was $82. Now I did get a prize package, but I can't imagine the value of that being more than $50. I am not trying to be greedy, because I'm not in it to make money, I just want to have fun and play. This is the only summer I will be able to do this. So anyway, if anyone could just fill me in on some more information, that would be awesome.

Thanks,
Chad



Maybe this will help: (dictionary.com)

am�a�teur
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
3. a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity: Hunting lions is not for amateurs.
4. a person who admires something; devotee; fan: an amateur of the cinema.
�adjective
5. characteristic of or engaged in by an amateur; nonprofessional: an amateur painter; amateur tennis.
[Origin: 1775�85; &lt; F, MF &lt; L am&amp;#257;tor lover, equiv. to am&amp;#257;- (s. of am&amp;#257;re to love) + -tor -tor, replaced by F -teur (&lt; L -t&amp;#333;r-, obl. s. of -tor); see -eur]

�Synonyms 2. nonprofessional. 3. dilettante, tyro, novice.

Hey guys. I just joined the PDGA this year, playing a few sanctioned tournaments last year. One thing I was just curious about, hoping that someone else out there may know the answer to this deals with prizes for amateurs. I don't know a great deal about the accepting cash thing, but as far as I know that only Open division can accept cash. Is this correct??<font color="red"> If so, why can't the amateurs accept cash?? </font> I just played in a tournament the other day, got 4th out of about 28. When I look at the scores, it says that my prize was $82. Now I did get a prize package, but I can't imagine the value of that being more than $50. I am not trying to be greedy, because I'm not in it to make money, I just want to have fun and play. This is the only summer I will be able to do this. So anyway, if anyone could just fill me in on some more information, that would be awesome.

Thanks,
Chad



Maybe this will help: (dictionary.com)

am�a�teur
Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[am-uh-choor, -cher, -ter, am-uh-tur] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
�noun
1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons. Compare professional.
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.
3. a person inexperienced or unskilled in a particular activity: Hunting lions is not for amateurs.
4. a person who admires something; devotee; fan: an amateur of the cinema.
�adjective
5. characteristic of or engaged in by an amateur; nonprofessional: an amateur painter; amateur tennis.
[Origin: 1775�85; &lt; F, MF &lt; L am&amp;#257;tor lover, equiv. to am&amp;#257;- (s. of am&amp;#257;re to love) + -tor -tor, replaced by F -teur (&lt; L -t&amp;#333;r-, obl. s. of -tor); see -eur]

�Synonyms 2. nonprofessional. 3. dilettante, tyro, novice.






honestly this answers the question better than any other post. but thanks for the input.

chad