There has been a lot of discussion here recently as to when sidewalks should be OB. A lot of players have been playing ALL sidewalks as OB, and quite often, over the sidewalk OB too.
The reasoning is to make the course more challenging.
Does this make sense? How do you play it? Does it depend on the course and how much traffic there is or how close the sidewalk is to the pin? What about pin placements that are sometimes over the sidewalk? Is it played the same in casual as it is during a tournament?
just curious what some thoughts are,
-mikew

My feeling is that if the sidewalk defines a good fairway, use sidewalks and beyond as OB. What drives me nuts is when TDs call the sidewalk out, but beyond-the-sidewalk is in bounds. That is absolutely stupid, imo. Another stupid thing is when a four-foot sidewalk crosses a 600 foot hole at about 380 feet away, and the TD calls the sidewalk OB. Crazy.

My feeling is that if the sidewalk defines a good fairway, use sidewalks and beyond as OB. What drives me nuts is when TDs call the sidewalk out, but beyond-the-sidewalk is in bounds. That is absolutely stupid, imo. Another stupid thing is when a four-foot sidewalk crosses a 600 foot hole at about 380 feet away, and the TD calls the sidewalk OB. Crazy.

I could not agree more.

We recently had a new nine-hole open locally and a few players are already calling a road that dissects four of the nine holes as OB. They want to treat it as a stream running through the course. The problems are multiple. First, it is a dirt road and does not have clearly defined lines for OB. Second, the location of the road dissecting the fairways would eliminate rollers and make many otherwise good throws OB because of too much/too little distance or just a bad skip in front of the road. Third, what is the logic of making a road OB? If it WAS a stream, I would understand. But the road is part of the landscape and no particular reason for being OB.

I know this question was about sidewalks, but the same issues can be applied. If the sidewalk defines the edge of an OB area, fine. But why have the sidewalk be OB when both sides of the walk are inbounds? It makes no sense.

My feeling is that if the sidewalk defines a good fairway, use sidewalks and beyond as OB. What drives me nuts is when TDs call the sidewalk out, but beyond-the-sidewalk is in bounds. That is absolutely stupid, imo. Another stupid thing is when a four-foot sidewalk crosses a 600 foot hole at about 380 feet away, and the TD calls the sidewalk OB. Crazy.

I could not agree more.

We recently had a new nine-hole open locally and a few players are already calling a road that dissects four of the nine holes as OB. They want to treat it as a stream running through the course. The problems are multiple. First, it is a dirt road and does not have clearly defined lines for OB. Second, the location of the road dissecting the fairways would eliminate rollers and make many otherwise good throws OB because of too much/too little distance or just a bad skip in front of the road. Third, what is the logic of making a road OB? If it WAS a stream, I would understand. But the road is part of the landscape and no particular reason for being OB.

I know this question was about sidewalks, but the same issues can be applied. If the sidewalk defines the edge of an OB area, fine. But why have the sidewalk be OB when both sides of the walk are inbounds? It makes no sense.



I agree on the sidewalk question. It should be on or over. A sidewalk is too narrow of a hazard to be OB on, but not over. Flukey.

I disagree on the road question. A road is usually plenty wide enough to be used as a "stream" OB. I'm not saying they should or should not be used in all cases, it depends upon the individual holes. The concern about a dirt road not having a definite edge can easily be addressed for tournaments with paint.

My feeling is that if the sidewalk defines a good fairway, use sidewalks and beyond as OB. What drives me nuts is when TDs call the sidewalk out, but beyond-the-sidewalk is in bounds. That is absolutely stupid, imo. Another stupid thing is when a four-foot sidewalk crosses a 600 foot hole at about 380 feet away, and the TD calls the sidewalk OB. Crazy.

I could not agree more.

We recently had a new nine-hole open locally and a few players are already calling a road that dissects four of the nine holes as OB. They want to treat it as a stream running through the course. The problems are multiple. First, it is a dirt road and does not have clearly defined lines for OB. Second, the location of the road dissecting the fairways would eliminate rollers and make many otherwise good throws OB because of too much/too little distance or just a bad skip in front of the road. Third, what is the logic of making a road OB? If it WAS a stream, I would understand. But the road is part of the landscape and no particular reason for being OB.

I know this question was about sidewalks, but the same issues can be applied. If the sidewalk defines the edge of an OB area, fine. But why have the sidewalk be OB when both sides of the walk are inbounds? It makes no sense.



I agree on the sidewalk question. It should be on or over. A sidewalk is too narrow of a hazard to be OB on, but not over. Flukey.

I disagree on the road question. A road is usually plenty wide enough to be used as a "stream" OB. I'm not saying they should or should not be used in all cases, it depends upon the individual holes. The concern about a dirt road not having a definite edge can easily be addressed for tournaments with paint.


If the road was there when designed it was probably intended to be OB. If the road was installed after the course was in then it might be a problem. Depending on the distance from the tee, the road might become a flaw in the hole design. It all depends on that situation. I do agree that roads and sidewalk and beyond can and should be used to help the design of a hole.

If the road was there when designed it was probably intended to be OB. If the road was installed after the course was in then it might be a problem. Depending on the distance from the tee, the road might become a flaw in the hole design. It all depends on that situation. I do agree that roads and sidewalk and beyond can and should be used to help the design of a hole.

The course is only six-weeks old and the road was there when the course was installed. The road crosses several holes and two roads actually intersect in the middle of the fairway for one hole.

Since I know and play with the course's designer, I know that the road was never intended as OB. He agrees with me that using it as OB on all holes would not be a desireable change. Also, OB is clearly indicated on each hole sign and the road is never used as OB.

John (course designer) and I have discussed the advantages of using the road on one hole to eliminate an easy out for a challenging anhyser route. In this case the road runs parallel along the path of flight and makes complete sense for the hole. However, the random road crossings that occur on the other holes were never a part of the course design as OBs and arbitrarily declaring them OB makes no sense, IMO.

I hate when people look too deep into things. Apparently this road was there when the course was installed . If the design did not transpire with the intent of road's as OB, then they are casual.

On or beyond ( ob ) on a normal sidewalk, totally acceptable . Honestly , I assume that any sidewalk on any course anywhere is OB. Beyond that sidewalk, I call it O.B. also, just for the degree of difficulty.

'Just for the degree of difficulty' is what doesn't make sense to me. If a park has sidewalks all through and across many holes then making it OB just adds strokes, not difficulty. Since many of the sidewalks could be within, say 10', of a hole and our shots are 2' apart, does that make one shot better than the other? Or make the hole more difficult? I say it doesn't because the OB doesn't make me think of a different shot, throw, or route, it's just luck of the draw and I just make a harder wish that it doesn't end up on the sidewalk the next time.
If it's along a fairway, that makes sense. But I can see making a sidewalk that has to be crossed as casual, (no stroke, move it off the sidewalk) so as to not interfere with pedestrians and bicycles. But getting a stroke by landing in the fairway, and mabye within a few feet of some else, just doesn't make sense to me.

I would agree that making the sidewalks alone OB has little value.

Sidewalks and beyond often demands a lot of control to navigate an otherwise simple course.

In the case of multiple sidewalks or sidewalks crossing holes, I generally play it such that the only inbounds areas are areas that are contigous with the target.

So, if there is a sidewalk 2/3 of the way to the basket, all of the fairway beteen the tee and sidewalk is OB.

The course is only six-weeks old and the road was there when the course was installed. The road crosses several holes and two roads actually intersect in the middle of the fairway for one hole.



this all begs the question: why would anyone design a course travelling back and forth over roads/intersections? are these roads open to traffic?

The course is only six-weeks old and the road was there when the course was installed. The road crosses several holes and two roads actually intersect in the middle of the fairway for one hole.



this all begs the question: why would anyone design a course travelling back and forth over roads/intersections? are these roads open to traffic?



ditto

The course is only six-weeks old and the road was there when the course was installed. The road crosses several holes and two roads actually intersect in the middle of the fairway for one hole.


this all begs the question: why would anyone design a course travelling back and forth over roads/intersections? are these roads open to traffic?



ditto

(Drumroll) And the answer is...NO, the roads are only used about three or four times a year to facilitate vehicle parking in this area of park during major events. The course was installed here because it was the only area of the park available for DG course. The roads are not a problem at all, except when the park will close the entire course for the major events.

Instead of using sidewalks as OB I prefer using mandos to keep players from throwing a certain direction. I don't like it when another fairway is OB. Since I started in ball golf I always find it weird when one fairway is in-bounds and another is OB. In golf the fairways run side by side without OB. You can be three fairways over without penalty. OB is reserved for the perimeter of the course and not the interior.

Instead of using sidewalks as OB I prefer using mandos to keep players from throwing a certain direction.

The problem with using both sidewalk OB's and mando's is that often they are created with safety in mind and often recreational players either don't know the rules or choose not to follow them.

OB is reserved for the perimeter of the course and not the interior.


I've played several ball golf courses that had OB lines inside the course, i.e. between two fairways. They weren't the best of courses, pretty much didn't have enough land to work with and had to be extra creative with design.

...pretty much didn't have enough land to work with and had to be extra creative with design.



That sums up an awful lot of disc golf courses.

...pretty much didn't have enough land to work with and had to be extra creative with design.



That sums up an awful lot of disc golf courses.



Adds to my argument that we should have more quality 9 hole courses with all the bells and whistles instead of cramming 18 holes, many of which are marginal, into too few acres.

I'd play a great 9 hole course over and over and over, but will eventually get tired of the average 18 hole course.

The course I play league at has got blacktop paths on almost every hole. It also has some concrete sidewalks and drainage ditches running through it. The TD chooses to call anything on blacktop or on concrete as OB. I don't like the call on it either because as said previously it all amounts to luck, not skill. When me and my buddies play the course the only thing we play OB is peoples yards or in the street.

I just played in a doubles tournament in tulsa and on the rules it had any sidewalks, roads, asphalt as ob. On hole #14 at McClure, it has a sidewalk down hill and about 6 feet from the basket. I watched the team we were playing put a nice approach from the right up by the basket and it rolled down the slope about 7 feet onto the asphalt trail. I felt bad about calling a penalty stroke on it. Here is a picture of the hole. The basket is just over the little tree on the middle left side of the fairway and 6' feet from the trail. So what would you do on this one?
http://www.tulsadiscsports.org/mchole14.jpg

I think the sidewalk on that hole makes an excellent risk/reward hole out of on an otherwise boring hole.

It is not difficult to lay up short of the path or to blow well past it. But any attempts to land beside the basket from the tee risk ending up OB.

Intresting way to look at it gn. It does make sense looking at it that way. I just felt guilty calling a penalty stroke on a nice layup that caught a edge and rolled a little onto the sidewalk.

Then you haven't ever seen hole 12 do that to anyone.
Nice drive just short of the basket, attempts putt, hits the edge of the cage and rolls all the way down that hill and lands on the sidewalk below. Try that one. :o:D

Oh and you can call that a cirlcle 5. :D

The placement of the OB there isn't really the problem. The problem is of a good lay-up shot and/or a putt that hits the side of the cage becoming a roll-away. I believe that all baskets should have some sort of small circle of love (it only need be about 10 feet in diameter). Inside said circle should be sand or mulch or have logs to block roll-aways. If you miss the basket and blast by, then by all means be penalized whether it be down a hill, OB, or otherwise.

The problem that I have with OB that close to a bucket is that it doesn't force a tough come-back putt. I'd much rather see a basket on the edge of a drop-off that gives you the opportunity to make a 60 foot uphill come-backer for the save. That criticism can also apply to yellow-rope OB defining fairways. Instead of going into "the rough" and having the opportunity to gamble and save par or turn a bogey into a double bogey, the penalty is always the same. (Having said that, I still feel that Winthrop and most other temp setups that employ yellow rope OB are waay better than they would be without, but still not as good as some tough woods adjacent to fairways.)

I just played in a doubles tournament in tulsa and on the rules it had any sidewalks, roads, asphalt as ob. On hole #14 at McClure, it has a sidewalk down hill and about 6 feet from the basket. I watched the team we were playing put a nice approach from the right up by the basket and it rolled down the slope about 7 feet onto the asphalt trail. I felt bad about calling a penalty stroke on it. Here is a picture of the hole. The basket is just over the little tree on the middle left side of the fairway and 6' feet from the trail. So what would you do on this one?
http://www.tulsadiscsports.org/mchole14.jpg


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... call-off the "o.b." designation ... that whole stretch of "walking path" has no clear , defined break between fairway and "a-strip-of-o.b.-in-middle-of-it" ...
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... obviously : imo ...

that whole stretch of "walking path" has no clear , defined break between fairway and "a-strip-of-o.b.-in-middle-of-it" ...



Every time I've played there it's been clearly marked with paint.

� as long as I�m offering up my opinion , let me put this in a perspective we can all understand � Ball Golf � the PGA � our sport�s �Big Brother� � Arnie�s Army , the Golden Bear , Gary Player , etc. � their Courses are laid out before them to compete against � now , they DO have obstacles : trees , hills , etc. � they also have O.B. areas that (1) cost-an-additional-stroke-penalty -and- (2) require a spot from point-of-entry , or a re-tee from former-position � in that regard , Disc-Golf emulates Ball-Golf � we share other features-in-common as well : Hills , Valleys , Woods , �rough� , Trees are all Obstacles and challenges to navigate or avoid � they even have Sand-Traps (not O.B. , but adding difficulty) � permanent-bodies-of-water are O.B. for both sports � shots which exit-the-outer-boundaries-of-the-Course-or-Park are O.B. for both sports � in Disc Golf , most of the Courses we enjoy are by necessity on �Public-Park-Land� � within these public layouts exist a myriad of sidewalks , paths , trails , horse-paths , ant-trails , etc. � some paved concrete � some rubber-tire-composition � some chat � some dirt � some gravel � very few with a �clearly-defined razor-sharp-edge of delineation� � we must co-exist with our various parks-departments with our Course-Layouts � they (and all their paths-and-roads) were there first � a Disc-Golf course strives to intermingle on these public lands ; and all-too-often , find ourselves too-close to those aforementioned areas-with-no-grass � when �large-portions� of your �fairway� are non-grass (necessarily) -and- that type area is all-over and around your footprint-of-land-for-recreation ; we still co-exist and Enjoy-the-Sport � follow �Big-Brother�s� lead � the PGA doesn�t fill their picturesque Courses with strips-o-pavement , or painted-stripes , or ropes , or horse-trails � they don�t feature �non-safe� areas winding around -or- criss-crossing -or- weaving-back-and-forth throughout the MIDST of their Courses � then imagine the PGA saying: �Tiger , Mickelson , Els , O�Meara : There�s you Course to play. Oh , and by-the-way , ALL THAT STUFF IS O.B. . Now go win your Green Jacket.� � ay ? �
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... call 'em safe ... get on with it ... enjoy ...

... TwoPutt , you knew I couldn't resist that soap-box ... ;)

On the way to the green jacket, you have to play 13 which has the equivalent of said path crossing just in front and right of the green. Hole 12 has water crossing directly in front of the hole much like McLure's hole 15.

Augusta Ntional's holes 15 and 16 also include water, crossing or taking up all of the fairway.

They don't play the cart path's as OB, but that's only because there's no one on the cart paths but golfers.

They don't play the cart path's as OB, but that's only because there's no one on the cart paths but golfers.


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... Good Call , PGA ... that way , a long-drive toward a cart-path (or other non-grass-dry-area) isn't just poke 'n' hope ...

I think that sidewalks should only be OB if the said sidewalk is heavily used by pedestrian traffic. With that being said, I believe that it is bad course design to put a basket near walking paths because that creates a safety hazard: a pedestrian being hit by a disc. Pedestrians should always have the right-of-way and it is our responsibility not to hit them with our discs.

A course I played a in a tournament in February had holes nestled in a cove of grass between the busy park road and the parking lot. I actually loved the hole, but I think it was designed poorly because of the risk of hitting a car was very great - I actually waited for about 2 minutes on one of my throws waiting for traffic to clear.

I have no problem with sidewalks or roads running along side the fairway being OB as long as most shots are not going to create a chance to hurt someone. My home course calls the park road and parking lot OB, but there are only a few holes where it is even possible to get it into the road, and even on those, it requires a bad shot.

There are some clever uses of OB that I like. One course near my home a guy set up on his private land. He roped off a 'lake' in the middle of a few of his holes. This 'lake' gives the chance to throw over it with the risk of getting wet, but also provides a longer safe path around it: the perfect risk/reward system.

I'll sum everything up with this: Placing baskets or main fairways too near pedestrian traffic is dangerous - but sometimes necessary to get a course installed. But putting random OB on the course for the sake of OB with no improvement to play quality (the dirt road crisscrossing a few holes) is stupid.

... well said , Keeper ...

Back to 14, the OB should be sidewalk and beyond.
Everything short and right of the sidewalk should be OB too. :eek:

Back to 14, the OB should be sidewalk and beyond.
Everything short and right of the sidewalk should be OB too. :eek:




We do play a version with everything short and right of the side walk is OB. ;)

I think that sidewalks should only be OB if the said sidewalk is heavily used by pedestrian traffic.



I feel if the reason is pedestrian traffic then it should be casual, no stroke, and you move back off the sidewalk so that other park/sidewalk users don't wait on you or interupt your next shot.
I agree that randomly making sidewalks OB does not make for a better or harder course. Quite often when a sidewalk is near a basket your shot doesn't change, you play the hole the same way whether or not the OB is there or not, and hope you don't land on it, so all the OB does is randomly add a stroke to the unlucky ones whose disc is parked 15' from the basket but surrounded by sidewalk, which then falsley elevates scores, which as tournaments get played at these courses alters the ratings you get at that course.

so all the OB does is randomly add a stroke to the unlucky ones whose disc is parked 15' from the basket but surrounded by sidewalk,


If there's OB 15 ft. behind a basket and you threw OB it wasn't by bad luck. It was because you threw a bad shot. Now, that person that also threw a bad shot that was only 14.5 ft. past the basket, and not OB was lucky, because they had also thrown a bad shot. Zero percent of the smart players that don't overthrow the basket in this sceneario go OB.

If you don't want to go OB, then don't throw close to the OB line.

so all the OB does is randomly add a stroke to the unlucky ones whose disc is parked 15' from the basket but surrounded by sidewalk,


If there's OB 15 ft. behind a basket and you threw OB it wasn't by bad luck. It was because you threw a bad shot. Now, that person that also threw a bad shot that was only 14.5 ft. past the basket, and not OB was lucky, because they had also thrown a bad shot. Zero percent of the smart players that don't overthrow the basket in this sceneario go OB.

If you don't want to go OB, then don't throw close to the OB line.


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... now why didn't eye think of that ? ... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

If there's OB 15 ft. behind a basket...



Behind the basket is easy, lay up or loft putt. But the several that I'm thinking of are not behind the basket. It's when it is both behind, and in front about 12' on the side of a hill, or 5' short at an angle in one instance, or runs most of the length of the fairway on the side of a hill passing the basket downhill 15' from it. Driving isn't my main concern, it's upshots and putting that the luck comes in. Let's say we both doink our putt into the basket and I roll 14' onto the sidewalk and you roll 12' and I get stroked and you don't, or you roll 20' across the sidewalk, that is bad luck, not skill (or lack of for missing to begin with).
There is always a solution, play short, play left, play long, etc. But when you roll, whether from a putt, drive, or upshot, less than 15' after hitting metal and get stroked, I don't think that is fair. When you're staring at a lake behind a basket you play it different than when it's a 5-6' wide sidewalk because of the luck factor. When it's a sidewalk I run that putt hoping it goes in and if not it hits something and doesn't roll much.
Just want it to be fair for all skill levels is all.

There is always a solution, play short, play left, play long, etc. But when you roll, whether from a putt, drive, or upshot, less than 15' after hitting metal and get stroked, I don't think that is fair


I agree on the putt roll-away problem. That's why I like to see a small circle of sand, mulch, or logs immediately around a basket to prevent putts that hit metal from rolling away.

In regards to drives/upshots that hit the basket and roll-away, the odds are that the shot had too much steam on it in those cases. Play to land 20-30 ft. short and skip up.

I agree on the putt roll-away problem. That's why I like to see a small circle of sand, mulch, or logs immediately around a basket to prevent putts that hit metal from rolling away.


I recently played Shady Oaks in Sacramento, CA which does exactly this on several holes. It made a world of difference. When I finally got my sixth shot within 10 feet of the basket, it didn't roll away and I was able to make my typical 10-foot/2-putt from that lie! Great concept.