Gregg
Mar 28 2007, 04:26 AM
what is the point of the rating "system" is if there are ams playing with huge ratings... I know about the amnesty and I'm not talking about that either... look at st patties am.
Angst
Mar 28 2007, 05:17 AM
The whole idea of Intermediate / Advanced / Open based on ranking is a little out of whack.
First off, the people at the lower end of their respective divisions think the people upper level are sandbagging. Those same people at the upper level of their division in many cases may not yet be competitive in the level above them. Is it there fault they would like to play a lead card before stepping up? Nope. On the same note, a high level advanced player (950+) is going to get crushed in open more often than not. So what would his motivation be to step up? To donate his higher entry fees to the 1000+ pros? yeah, right.
A nice solution to this might be to have 4 division based SOLELY on rating... For example 0-909, 910-949, 950-979, 980+ . The top 2 divisions would be cash paying divisions and the bottom 2 would be product. Movement between these classes would be completely fluid. If your rating climbs to the next level then you move up. If it drops, you move down.
Lets face it, the current divison gaps are too wide. More often than not a 970 rated player is going to demolish a 916 rated player. Similarly, that same 970 rated player will get crushed by a 1000+ rated player.
First off, the people at the lower end of their respective divisions think the people upper level are sandbagging. Those same people at the upper level of their division in many cases may not yet be competitive in the level above them. Is it there fault they would like to play a lead card before stepping up? Nope. On the same note, a high level advanced player (950+) is going to get crushed in open more often than not. So what would his motivation be to step up? To donate his higher entry fees to the 1000+ pros? yeah, right.
A nice solution to this might be to have 4 division based SOLELY on rating... For example 0-909, 910-949, 950-979, 980+ . The top 2 divisions would be cash paying divisions and the bottom 2 would be product. Movement between these classes would be completely fluid. If your rating climbs to the next level then you move up. If it drops, you move down.
Lets face it, the current divison gaps are too wide. More often than not a 970 rated player is going to demolish a 916 rated player. Similarly, that same 970 rated player will get crushed by a 1000+ rated player.
uwmdiscgolfer
Mar 30 2007, 06:29 PM
do you think a 650 rated player can compete with a 905 rated player?
Coryan
Mar 30 2007, 06:37 PM
A nice solution to this might be to have 4 division based SOLELY on rating... For example 0-909, 910-949, 950-979, 980+ . The top 2 divisions would be cash paying divisions and the bottom 2 would be product.
This would be similar to chess and Scrabble tournaments (my intellecual hobbies). It is also somewhat like tennis tournaments.
The problem seems to be that in our sport the player can often self-select what division to play in. In these other sports/games, the decision is made by their past performance. The option of playing "up" (at a higher level) is available when close to that rating, but a player can not play down in a lower division than their rating. There would be some challenges to making this work, but it could be an interesting solution.
BTW, regarding a 650 player competing against a 905...that is only a product of how the divisions were set. I think Angst was just giving some arbitrary examples. Obviously, you would want to set the division ratings in such a way that you have a decent number of players in each grouping. If there are enough 650s and under, the 650 could be the lead card in his/her division!
This would be similar to chess and Scrabble tournaments (my intellecual hobbies). It is also somewhat like tennis tournaments.
The problem seems to be that in our sport the player can often self-select what division to play in. In these other sports/games, the decision is made by their past performance. The option of playing "up" (at a higher level) is available when close to that rating, but a player can not play down in a lower division than their rating. There would be some challenges to making this work, but it could be an interesting solution.
BTW, regarding a 650 player competing against a 905...that is only a product of how the divisions were set. I think Angst was just giving some arbitrary examples. Obviously, you would want to set the division ratings in such a way that you have a decent number of players in each grouping. If there are enough 650s and under, the 650 could be the lead card in his/her division!
bruce_brakel
Mar 30 2007, 10:16 PM
A nice solution to this might be to have 4 division based SOLELY on rating... For example 0-909, 910-949, 950-979, 980+ . The top 2 divisions would be cash paying divisions and the bottom 2 would be product.
With 40 point spreads you need about 8 divisions to cover everything from Intermediate Women up to the best pro men. Eight is an improvement over the eleven or twelve divisions they currently play in at our IOS tournaments.
With 40 point spreads you need about 8 divisions to cover everything from Intermediate Women up to the best pro men. Eight is an improvement over the eleven or twelve divisions they currently play in at our IOS tournaments.
bcary93
Mar 31 2007, 02:03 PM
I'm a bit surprised one or two other regulars haven't popped in here to share their ideas for addressing the ratings range from the bottom of advanced at 915 and the potential top end which is unregulated. So, Advanced could (if KC took an amnesty) have a range of 915 to 1042, a range of 127 rating points. While this ain't gonna happen, adding a ratings based division above Advanced would reduce that potential spread from top to bottom.
bruce_brakel
Mar 31 2007, 02:07 PM
I think the dead horse is beat right now, but he'll perk up in a month or two.
ck34
Mar 31 2007, 07:07 PM
The meeting to discuss such lofty issues has not happened yet. It's now evening of April 3.
cbdiscpimp
Apr 01 2007, 09:42 PM
Im going to speak on this from what I have been threw!!! Im a 965 rated player and as far as im concerned if someone who is at my rating wants to play Advanced then let them do it all they want because as soon as they move up to Open they have to play exceptional in my home state or at ANY Larger tournament just to get thier money back!!!
So I say who cares how high your rating is........If you want to play Advance go right ahead and do so........Its not like these high rated AMs are winning every tournament on the map either it really does not matter all that much in the long run and Ill tell you right now I have skipped about 5 tournaments this year because I know I have to play well above average right now for it to even ben worth my time.
I have been skipping tournaments buying some beer and hitting the course for some practice because if I show up to a local tourny with 15 pros........Most likely 7 will be 990 plus and I am most likely throwing my money away!!!
I refuse to move back to am but I also refuse to play in the Open division untill I feel that I am ready.
Just my 2 cents
So I say who cares how high your rating is........If you want to play Advance go right ahead and do so........Its not like these high rated AMs are winning every tournament on the map either it really does not matter all that much in the long run and Ill tell you right now I have skipped about 5 tournaments this year because I know I have to play well above average right now for it to even ben worth my time.
I have been skipping tournaments buying some beer and hitting the course for some practice because if I show up to a local tourny with 15 pros........Most likely 7 will be 990 plus and I am most likely throwing my money away!!!
I refuse to move back to am but I also refuse to play in the Open division untill I feel that I am ready.
Just my 2 cents
esalazar
Apr 01 2007, 09:49 PM
i agree!!!
denny1210
Apr 01 2007, 10:31 PM
I refuse to move back to am but I also refuse to play in the Open division untill I feel that I am ready.
reminds me of a sweet jimmy cliff song . . .
reminds me of a sweet jimmy cliff song . . .
mikeP
Apr 01 2007, 11:55 PM
Im going to speak on this from what I have been threw!!! Im a 965 rated player and as far as im concerned if someone who is at my rating wants to play Advanced then let them do it all they want because as soon as they move up to Open they have to play exceptional in my home state or at ANY Larger tournament just to get thier money back!!!
So I say who cares how high your rating is........If you want to play Advance go right ahead and do so........Its not like these high rated AMs are winning every tournament on the map either it really does not matter all that much in the long run and Ill tell you right now I have skipped about 5 tournaments this year because I know I have to play well above average right now for it to even ben worth my time.
I have been skipping tournaments buying some beer and hitting the course for some practice because if I show up to a local tourny with 15 pros........Most likely 7 will be 990 plus and I am most likely throwing my money away!!!
I refuse to move back to am but I also refuse to play in the Open division untill I feel that I am ready.
Just my 2 cents
I'm right there in the same situation at 962, and I think that we just have to accept that we are in the gap in the current system and try to do what we can to change things. I too have played a few less tourneys as I take advantage of strong competition at local doubles and handicap rounds in my area. I know exactly how good I need to become to get to the next level and I know I'm not quite together yet. I know simply "playing" with the better guys is not going to take me to the next level because I play with them all the time.
So the best solution I have come up with for myself is to play Adv at the larger tournaments and pick a select few to play Open. I am in the same boat as about 10 other good players on the cusp in FLA and we enjoy competing against one another in ADV regardless of who calls us baggers.
So I say who cares how high your rating is........If you want to play Advance go right ahead and do so........Its not like these high rated AMs are winning every tournament on the map either it really does not matter all that much in the long run and Ill tell you right now I have skipped about 5 tournaments this year because I know I have to play well above average right now for it to even ben worth my time.
I have been skipping tournaments buying some beer and hitting the course for some practice because if I show up to a local tourny with 15 pros........Most likely 7 will be 990 plus and I am most likely throwing my money away!!!
I refuse to move back to am but I also refuse to play in the Open division untill I feel that I am ready.
Just my 2 cents
I'm right there in the same situation at 962, and I think that we just have to accept that we are in the gap in the current system and try to do what we can to change things. I too have played a few less tourneys as I take advantage of strong competition at local doubles and handicap rounds in my area. I know exactly how good I need to become to get to the next level and I know I'm not quite together yet. I know simply "playing" with the better guys is not going to take me to the next level because I play with them all the time.
So the best solution I have come up with for myself is to play Adv at the larger tournaments and pick a select few to play Open. I am in the same boat as about 10 other good players on the cusp in FLA and we enjoy competing against one another in ADV regardless of who calls us baggers.
bruce_brakel
Apr 02 2007, 12:42 AM
The solution is for you 960+ rated amateurs to play as many tournaments as possible. I'm serious. Unless the competition committee sees a problem, there won't be a solution.
If you don't want to be called a bagger, there's a very simple solution for that. Give your prizes away to the people not calling you a bagger! :D
If you don't want to be called a bagger, there's a very simple solution for that. Give your prizes away to the people not calling you a bagger! :D
BVDisc
Apr 06 2007, 04:54 PM
I'm 941 rated right now and if I had the option of playing pro or nothing I'd definitely play pro. I understand if the money will break the bank then it wouldn't be a good idea but otherwise I go to tournaments to have fun. Yes, being on the lead card is fun and the last card can be discouraging but I'd never skip a tournament since I don't think I'll be able to win. I also know that playing with those top end players will help improve my game. I play with them casually all the time but actually having to knuckle down and play with them in a tournament is really good practice. That being said, I think there should be a top end to Ams. Having adv. ams in the 990s is ridiculous in my opinion. By the time a player hits 960-970 range (or earlier) they should be moving up to make room for the people below them. Just my 2 cents.
the_beastmaster
Apr 06 2007, 04:59 PM
I was happy with how Bowling Green turned out. Even with a truckload of 965-980 guys, a 948 guy (legimately rated as an Am) took home the title.
Jeff_LaG
Apr 06 2007, 05:52 PM
I'm 941 rated right now and if I had the option of playing pro or nothing I'd definitely play pro.
Sadly, the option chosen for many people, including myself, is often nothing.
Sadly, the option chosen for many people, including myself, is often nothing.
ninafofitre
Apr 06 2007, 06:20 PM
I'm 941 rated right now and if I had the option of playing pro or nothing I'd definitely play pro.
Sadly, the option chosen for many people, including myself, is often nothing.
I'm trying to help you brothers out ;)
Sadly, the option chosen for many people, including myself, is often nothing.
I'm trying to help you brothers out ;)
bruce_brakel
Apr 06 2007, 06:54 PM
I was happy with how Bowling Green turned out. Even with a truckload of 965-980 guys, a 948 guy (legimately rated as an Am) took home the title.
"Was that an amnestied pro who won in Am Master?" asked the fellow accustomed to throwing rocks at hornets nests.
"Was that an amnestied pro who won in Am Master?" asked the fellow accustomed to throwing rocks at hornets nests.
denny1210
Apr 06 2007, 08:42 PM
There is absolutely nothing "illegitimate" about a 965-980 rated player playing in advanced.
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
cbdiscpimp
Apr 07 2007, 12:37 AM
There is absolutely nothing "illegitimate" about a 965-980 rated player playing in advanced.
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
OMG!!! Someone who FINALLY sees it from my point of view!!! I grea up a Ball Golfer and I feel exactly the same way!!! Tiger Woods won 3 Amatuer National Championships before ever even thinking of turning Pro!!! That would be like me going back and playing USADGC again this year and winning and then going back again in 2008 and winning and then turning pro after my rating had reached a solid 990 or better at which time I would be able to compete and cash on a regular basis in the Open division!!!
The entire reason people call other people baggers is because they are selfish!!! Its either the top rated pros telling you to move up cuz they want your money or its the 930 rated guys telling you to move up so they can cash higher against less competition!!!
I made the choice to move up into the Open division and I have realized that im just NOT READY!!! I mean hell ANYONE can call themselves a PRO in this sport..........All you have to do it pay the money and play in the Open division!!!
I know I have the skills to become one of the best I just need another year or so to hone those skills!!! I mean jeez most of us 960+ rated players have only been playing for a mear 4-6 years!!! Thats NOTHING compared to Feldberg and Jenkins and Climo and Schweby and Rico and Doss and Barsby and McCabe and Tank and Crabtree and McCoy and all the other top guys I forgot to mention!!! They have been playing almost all of them for over a DECADE!!! Thats over two times as long as I have been playing and everyone is just like OH MOVE UP AND WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! MOVE UP BAGGER!!! YOUR SUCH A BAGGER BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! I also think its bad for the sport because I have seen TONS and TONS of top Advanced players in the country move up and just drop off the radar cuz its not worth it to play anymore!!! No one likes to come in a be on the last card or third to last card every tournament they play........Its disheartening and you just would rather play casually and not waste your money..........Lets face it in the Advanced division it was worth my time cuz I knew that almost ALWAYS I was going to go home with something I could either sell or put to good use!!! Now unless I play great in a tournament I go home with a pat on the back and a Hey you will get that no cash monkey off your back at some time or another!!! And lets face it that SUCKS!!!
I for one am only not playing tournaments right now cuz I just flat out dont have the money to pay if Im not going to cash!!! Once my bank account gets back to a place where I can spend 150 a weekend and not cash I will be playing as many tournaments as I can get to but untill then ill be playing casually and doing what I can to promote the sport without playing tournaments!!!
Thats just how it is!!!
Just 2 more of my cents
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
OMG!!! Someone who FINALLY sees it from my point of view!!! I grea up a Ball Golfer and I feel exactly the same way!!! Tiger Woods won 3 Amatuer National Championships before ever even thinking of turning Pro!!! That would be like me going back and playing USADGC again this year and winning and then going back again in 2008 and winning and then turning pro after my rating had reached a solid 990 or better at which time I would be able to compete and cash on a regular basis in the Open division!!!
The entire reason people call other people baggers is because they are selfish!!! Its either the top rated pros telling you to move up cuz they want your money or its the 930 rated guys telling you to move up so they can cash higher against less competition!!!
I made the choice to move up into the Open division and I have realized that im just NOT READY!!! I mean hell ANYONE can call themselves a PRO in this sport..........All you have to do it pay the money and play in the Open division!!!
I know I have the skills to become one of the best I just need another year or so to hone those skills!!! I mean jeez most of us 960+ rated players have only been playing for a mear 4-6 years!!! Thats NOTHING compared to Feldberg and Jenkins and Climo and Schweby and Rico and Doss and Barsby and McCabe and Tank and Crabtree and McCoy and all the other top guys I forgot to mention!!! They have been playing almost all of them for over a DECADE!!! Thats over two times as long as I have been playing and everyone is just like OH MOVE UP AND WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! MOVE UP BAGGER!!! YOUR SUCH A BAGGER BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! I also think its bad for the sport because I have seen TONS and TONS of top Advanced players in the country move up and just drop off the radar cuz its not worth it to play anymore!!! No one likes to come in a be on the last card or third to last card every tournament they play........Its disheartening and you just would rather play casually and not waste your money..........Lets face it in the Advanced division it was worth my time cuz I knew that almost ALWAYS I was going to go home with something I could either sell or put to good use!!! Now unless I play great in a tournament I go home with a pat on the back and a Hey you will get that no cash monkey off your back at some time or another!!! And lets face it that SUCKS!!!
I for one am only not playing tournaments right now cuz I just flat out dont have the money to pay if Im not going to cash!!! Once my bank account gets back to a place where I can spend 150 a weekend and not cash I will be playing as many tournaments as I can get to but untill then ill be playing casually and doing what I can to promote the sport without playing tournaments!!!
Thats just how it is!!!
Just 2 more of my cents
MatthewPratt
Apr 07 2007, 03:45 PM
Let's see...this game is played on a course with a predetermined score (par) for that course. With each round, you receive a rating based on the score you shot compared to par for the course. Your rating moves up or down over time with the more rounds that you play and how well you play them. This rating, after a descent amount of time, begins to show your true ability as a golfer. Granted, sometimes you'll be on fire and your rating will go up and sometimes you'll shoot like crap and it will go down. Sound familiar?
The better players are those who can CONSISTANTLY improve there game and maintain a higer rating than their peers.
I'm all for a ratings based tournament and divisional seperation. At what rating levels they/we seperate the divisions at is still up in the air.
Face it...some people will never be good at disc golf. Just like I know that I will never be good at playing basketball. It's just not my calling.
There are people who will try to "Sandbag" in a division on purpose. Why? Who knows and who cares. Don't worry about those people, worry about your level of play. I get so tired of people who get beat by someone in a tournament and then cry "well they are sandbagging and I didn't have a chance to win". I call bullshiat! You don't have a chance to win because you are spending more time complaining about their game rather than working on yours.
I've only been playing for about a year now. Love the game and genearlly love the people. I still struggle with increasing my level of play and consistantly playing well. Who doesn't? I feel that I play better when I'm playing with people who are a little better than me. It makes me want to step my game up to theirs.
Think about a PDGA where you don't choose which division you play in, your rating determines that for you. Brand new players would be forced to play in a "new or intermediate" divions at first to determine how well they play. If they play well enough that their rating from the last tournament moves them into the next higher division, then so be it. Oh that's right...they may win the intermediate divion right out to the gate and won't be fair to the others....again, bullshiat! They are just better than the others and deserve to win. We all have to start somewhere.
The better players are those who can CONSISTANTLY improve there game and maintain a higer rating than their peers.
I'm all for a ratings based tournament and divisional seperation. At what rating levels they/we seperate the divisions at is still up in the air.
Face it...some people will never be good at disc golf. Just like I know that I will never be good at playing basketball. It's just not my calling.
There are people who will try to "Sandbag" in a division on purpose. Why? Who knows and who cares. Don't worry about those people, worry about your level of play. I get so tired of people who get beat by someone in a tournament and then cry "well they are sandbagging and I didn't have a chance to win". I call bullshiat! You don't have a chance to win because you are spending more time complaining about their game rather than working on yours.
I've only been playing for about a year now. Love the game and genearlly love the people. I still struggle with increasing my level of play and consistantly playing well. Who doesn't? I feel that I play better when I'm playing with people who are a little better than me. It makes me want to step my game up to theirs.
Think about a PDGA where you don't choose which division you play in, your rating determines that for you. Brand new players would be forced to play in a "new or intermediate" divions at first to determine how well they play. If they play well enough that their rating from the last tournament moves them into the next higher division, then so be it. Oh that's right...they may win the intermediate divion right out to the gate and won't be fair to the others....again, bullshiat! They are just better than the others and deserve to win. We all have to start somewhere.
CB2
Apr 07 2007, 04:15 PM
There is absolutely nothing "illegitimate" about a 965-980 rated player playing in advanced.
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
The entire reason people call other people baggers is because they are selfish!!! Its either the top rated pros telling you to move up cuz they want your money or its the 930 rated guys telling you to move up so they can cash higher against less competition!!!
I know I have the skills to become one of the best I just need another year or so to hone those skills!!! I mean jeez most of us 960+ rated players have only been playing for a mear 4-6 years!!! Thats NOTHING compared to Feldberg and Jenkins and Climo and Schweby and Rico and Doss and Barsby and McCabe and Tank and Crabtree and McCoy and all the other top guys I forgot to mention!!! They have been playing almost all of them for over a DECADE!!! Thats over two times as long as I have been playing and everyone is just like OH MOVE UP AND WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! MOVE UP BAGGER!!! YOUR SUCH A BAGGER BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! I also think its bad for the sport because I have seen TONS and TONS of top Advanced players in the country move up and just drop off the radar cuz its not worth it to play anymore!!! No one likes to come in a be on the last card or third to last card every tournament they play........Its disheartening and you just would rather play casually and not waste your money..........Lets face it in the Advanced division it was worth my time cuz I knew that almost ALWAYS I was going to go home with something I could either sell or put to good use!!! Now unless I play great in a tournament I go home with a pat on the back and a Hey you will get that no cash monkey off your back at some time or another!!! And lets face it that SUCKS!!!
Thats just how it is!!!
Same thing with me, I'm rated at 966 with 3 year's of disc golf under my belt and I hear move up bagger so much at tournament's it's pathetic, I have been told that i'm scared and a chicken s!%t because I haven't moved up yet.....I know have the skill's and the game to play Pro I'm just not consistent enough to play pro (I will shoot a 900 round then come back with 3 990 round's)...
1) There's no rule against it.
2) If our 1000 rated player is a "scratch" golfer then 965's approximately a 3.5 handicap and 980 a 2. A 2 handicapper in ball golf will barely qualify to even play in the Florida State Amateur Golf Championship and will have almost no chance of winning. The best amateur golfers are scratch players.
3) The pressure for amateurs to move up and become donators is counter-productive. It causes people who've been with the sport for significant time to quit playing tournaments and it waters down the meaning of "pro" in the sport.
4) Having said all that, I do recognize a problem with 920 players competing against 980 players. The issue being, that the intermediate "bump" number is too low.
5) Having the designation "pro" needs to be earned by people that work hard for it.
The entire reason people call other people baggers is because they are selfish!!! Its either the top rated pros telling you to move up cuz they want your money or its the 930 rated guys telling you to move up so they can cash higher against less competition!!!
I know I have the skills to become one of the best I just need another year or so to hone those skills!!! I mean jeez most of us 960+ rated players have only been playing for a mear 4-6 years!!! Thats NOTHING compared to Feldberg and Jenkins and Climo and Schweby and Rico and Doss and Barsby and McCabe and Tank and Crabtree and McCoy and all the other top guys I forgot to mention!!! They have been playing almost all of them for over a DECADE!!! Thats over two times as long as I have been playing and everyone is just like OH MOVE UP AND WASTE YOUR MONEY!!! MOVE UP BAGGER!!! YOUR SUCH A BAGGER BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! I also think its bad for the sport because I have seen TONS and TONS of top Advanced players in the country move up and just drop off the radar cuz its not worth it to play anymore!!! No one likes to come in a be on the last card or third to last card every tournament they play........Its disheartening and you just would rather play casually and not waste your money..........Lets face it in the Advanced division it was worth my time cuz I knew that almost ALWAYS I was going to go home with something I could either sell or put to good use!!! Now unless I play great in a tournament I go home with a pat on the back and a Hey you will get that no cash monkey off your back at some time or another!!! And lets face it that SUCKS!!!
Thats just how it is!!!
Same thing with me, I'm rated at 966 with 3 year's of disc golf under my belt and I hear move up bagger so much at tournament's it's pathetic, I have been told that i'm scared and a chicken s!%t because I haven't moved up yet.....I know have the skill's and the game to play Pro I'm just not consistent enough to play pro (I will shoot a 900 round then come back with 3 990 round's)...
friysch
Apr 07 2007, 07:17 PM
Bagger.
MC
MC
DSproAVIAR
Apr 07 2007, 09:52 PM
I donated in every division for a period of time (AM3, AM2, AM1). It's called "learning". I just moved to pro and I'm donating right now as well, and LEARNING. You can't expect to jump up to the next division and start winning, or even cashing. Deal with failure and learn from it. You just gotta bite the bullet and move. If you honestly and confidently believe that you can improve, you will improve, if you put the time and effort into it. And learning + improving = CASH! I am a firm believer in "Know that you can, and you will" or "You can accomplish anything you set your mind to."
I bet it will take a year or maybe 2 years (hopefully not) for me to become a consistent casher. I must have patience and invest time and effort to reach my goals.
edit: I advise all AM1's that know they are good to move up and start donating (LEARNING).
I bet it will take a year or maybe 2 years (hopefully not) for me to become a consistent casher. I must have patience and invest time and effort to reach my goals.
edit: I advise all AM1's that know they are good to move up and start donating (LEARNING).
gang4010
Apr 08 2007, 11:04 AM
Belief in ones abilities is the first step to being competitive in the Open Division. If you are rated 955+, in effect that's 4 strokes a round to being 1000 rated players - which realistically amounts to what? 2 bad drives, and 2 missed putts? If you 960 rated players are convinced you can't cash - well guess what, you can't. The notion you need 4-6 years to be ready to play Open is a joke.
When I started playing - I played 2 tournaments as an AM and the local TD's said - you're not allowed to play AM anymore!!! Not 2 years - 2 tournaments!! And I wouldn't have cashed in Open in either one.
I took that experience to drive me to be able to compete - I took 4-6 months (over the winter months) of steady practice, played a ton of tournaments, and was rewarded by earning the ROY in 1988.
The only way to be successful is to believe in yourself, pay attention to the higher rated players around you - engage them for advice, watch and emulate their techniques. Play to your known strengths - don't try and thrown the shots you watch others do that you don't have - play control - and consistency comes with. I recently went down to the Am crosstown in Raleigh - and over the weekend gave a minor putting clinic to a bunch of AM players. Among other things - we talked about the ACTUAL time you spend throwing a disc during a round of golf. Think about it - if you shoot 54 - the actual time spent throwing is about 10-15 seconds per throw which amount to 13.5 minutes. This is the total amount of time you need to concentrate and execute. This is something ANYBODY can do. 960 rated players OBVIOUSLY have developed the skills to execute - consistency comes down to that 13.5 minutes of concentration. Relax, breathe, believe you can - and you can.
One of the hardest things to do successfully in DG is to play with and then to your expectations. Shed your expectations and play for the sake of playing. You don't have fun because you play well, you play well because you're having FUN!!!!
When I started playing - I played 2 tournaments as an AM and the local TD's said - you're not allowed to play AM anymore!!! Not 2 years - 2 tournaments!! And I wouldn't have cashed in Open in either one.
I took that experience to drive me to be able to compete - I took 4-6 months (over the winter months) of steady practice, played a ton of tournaments, and was rewarded by earning the ROY in 1988.
The only way to be successful is to believe in yourself, pay attention to the higher rated players around you - engage them for advice, watch and emulate their techniques. Play to your known strengths - don't try and thrown the shots you watch others do that you don't have - play control - and consistency comes with. I recently went down to the Am crosstown in Raleigh - and over the weekend gave a minor putting clinic to a bunch of AM players. Among other things - we talked about the ACTUAL time you spend throwing a disc during a round of golf. Think about it - if you shoot 54 - the actual time spent throwing is about 10-15 seconds per throw which amount to 13.5 minutes. This is the total amount of time you need to concentrate and execute. This is something ANYBODY can do. 960 rated players OBVIOUSLY have developed the skills to execute - consistency comes down to that 13.5 minutes of concentration. Relax, breathe, believe you can - and you can.
One of the hardest things to do successfully in DG is to play with and then to your expectations. Shed your expectations and play for the sake of playing. You don't have fun because you play well, you play well because you're having FUN!!!!
ck34
Apr 08 2007, 11:12 AM
If it's so easy to knock off 3-4 shots a round, how come you're not a world champ with over a 1040 rating? :eek:
gang4010
Apr 08 2007, 01:43 PM
Were you born that rude, or do you work at it?
I didn't say it was easy, but the difference between 3-4 strokes a round at 960, is a whole lot easier than at 1000.
I didn't say it was easy, but the difference between 3-4 strokes a round at 960, is a whole lot easier than at 1000.
Fats
Apr 08 2007, 01:59 PM
Anyone can cash in pro on a good day/weekend. Hell, my first pro cash came last year at a 2-day A tier when I was rated 947.
Now if only I could throw something over 930 in 2007...
Now if only I could throw something over 930 in 2007...
ck34
Apr 08 2007, 02:43 PM
I didn't say it was easy, but the difference between 3-4 strokes a round at 960, is a whole lot easier than at 1000.
Says who? You constantly berate players for not playing with and donating to the better players, as if anyone can get to your level or higher for just four rounds let alone a full year to earn a rating at that level. There's no proof that's the case. There are players who have practiced and played for years that have ratings 30-40 points lower than players who rarely practice whether at 820 & 860 or 870 & 910. 3-4 shots improvement over your "natural" level is just as tough at any level.
Your advice is appropriate. But the effort can yield little at all levels for those who have peaked.
Says who? You constantly berate players for not playing with and donating to the better players, as if anyone can get to your level or higher for just four rounds let alone a full year to earn a rating at that level. There's no proof that's the case. There are players who have practiced and played for years that have ratings 30-40 points lower than players who rarely practice whether at 820 & 860 or 870 & 910. 3-4 shots improvement over your "natural" level is just as tough at any level.
Your advice is appropriate. But the effort can yield little at all levels for those who have peaked.
cbdiscpimp
Apr 08 2007, 08:00 PM
Belief in ones abilities is the first step to being competitive in the Open Division. If you are rated 955+, in effect that's 4 strokes a round to being 1000 rated players - which realistically amounts to what? 2 bad drives, and 2 missed putts? If you 960 rated players are convinced you can't cash - well guess what, you can't. The notion you need 4-6 years to be ready to play Open is a joke.
When I started playing - I played 2 tournaments as an AM and the local TD's said - you're not allowed to play AM anymore!!! Not 2 years - 2 tournaments!! And I wouldn't have cashed in Open in either one.
I took that experience to drive me to be able to compete - I took 4-6 months (over the winter months) of steady practice, played a ton of tournaments, and was rewarded by earning the ROY in 1988.
The only way to be successful is to believe in yourself, pay attention to the higher rated players around you - engage them for advice, watch and emulate their techniques. Play to your known strengths - don't try and thrown the shots you watch others do that you don't have - play control - and consistency comes with. I recently went down to the Am crosstown in Raleigh - and over the weekend gave a minor putting clinic to a bunch of AM players. Among other things - we talked about the ACTUAL time you spend throwing a disc during a round of golf. Think about it - if you shoot 54 - the actual time spent throwing is about 10-15 seconds per throw which amount to 13.5 minutes. This is the total amount of time you need to concentrate and execute. This is something ANYBODY can do. 960 rated players OBVIOUSLY have developed the skills to execute - consistency comes down to that 13.5 minutes of concentration. Relax, breathe, believe you can - and you can.
One of the hardest things to do successfully in DG is to play with and then to your expectations. Shed your expectations and play for the sake of playing. You don't have fun because you play well, you play well because you're having FUN!!!!
You also have to realize that in 1988 there were not NEAR as many good players at there are now 19 years later!!! How many players at that time do you think would have been 1000 rated with todays ratins system??? Maybe 10??? MAYBE..............Now I show up to play a NT even and there are ATLEAST 10 if not 20 players who have ratings of OVER 1000 and sometimes there are 30 players over 1000 and 10 that are over 1020 rated!!! Granted your improvement was a quick one but you also have to think about how many TOTAL players there were compared to the total number of players now!!!
And I understand that its just 4 throws per round for me to become a 1000+ rated player and in my case 90 percent of the time its all in my head but its still something I have to overcome and with todays competition even if I show up to at NT and average 1000 rated rounds I still may not even cash!!! And that right there is enough to keep ANYONE in the advanced division untill they are a 990 rated player!!! I understand that people have to pay their dues and what not but lets be serious.........unless a 965 rated player is still rapidly improving they have no business playing in the Open division unless they are fine with cashing next to NEVER!!!
I thought Pro 2 was a great way to solve this problem but not enough players entered and not enough TDs offered it and by the time anyone knew it was even an option it was GONE!!!
Like I said I have no problem donating in the Open division when my bank account allows it but as far as right now is concerned I have to wait till I save some more money before I just go out and DONATE it!!!
Maybe an expert division where cash and prizes are offered is that answer........Maybe its not.........but the bigger the player base gets the more of a problem this is going to become!!! Maybe we need a division thats like the Nationwide tour is for the PGA!!! These guys are too good to play as amatuers but just not quite good enough to play on the PGA........So they go on the Nationwide tour and practice and compete and barely make any money unless they are the best on the nationwide which may equate to a 980-990 rated player in the PDGA but they make enough to get by and get from tournament to tournament so they can keep thier focus on the game and nothing else!!! I would love to barely make enough money to live and just play disc golf......That way I could spend all the time I spend at my job on the course and at tournaments and getting my game to the level where I could be on the road full time playing in the Open division and cashing at every event!!!
I just dont have that luxury right now and if I go and play every tournament I can and dont cash I will run out of money and have to go back and find another job!!!
I just think that the gap from the top of the Advanced division to the last cashing spot in the Open division is too large!!!
Just my 2 cents
When I started playing - I played 2 tournaments as an AM and the local TD's said - you're not allowed to play AM anymore!!! Not 2 years - 2 tournaments!! And I wouldn't have cashed in Open in either one.
I took that experience to drive me to be able to compete - I took 4-6 months (over the winter months) of steady practice, played a ton of tournaments, and was rewarded by earning the ROY in 1988.
The only way to be successful is to believe in yourself, pay attention to the higher rated players around you - engage them for advice, watch and emulate their techniques. Play to your known strengths - don't try and thrown the shots you watch others do that you don't have - play control - and consistency comes with. I recently went down to the Am crosstown in Raleigh - and over the weekend gave a minor putting clinic to a bunch of AM players. Among other things - we talked about the ACTUAL time you spend throwing a disc during a round of golf. Think about it - if you shoot 54 - the actual time spent throwing is about 10-15 seconds per throw which amount to 13.5 minutes. This is the total amount of time you need to concentrate and execute. This is something ANYBODY can do. 960 rated players OBVIOUSLY have developed the skills to execute - consistency comes down to that 13.5 minutes of concentration. Relax, breathe, believe you can - and you can.
One of the hardest things to do successfully in DG is to play with and then to your expectations. Shed your expectations and play for the sake of playing. You don't have fun because you play well, you play well because you're having FUN!!!!
You also have to realize that in 1988 there were not NEAR as many good players at there are now 19 years later!!! How many players at that time do you think would have been 1000 rated with todays ratins system??? Maybe 10??? MAYBE..............Now I show up to play a NT even and there are ATLEAST 10 if not 20 players who have ratings of OVER 1000 and sometimes there are 30 players over 1000 and 10 that are over 1020 rated!!! Granted your improvement was a quick one but you also have to think about how many TOTAL players there were compared to the total number of players now!!!
And I understand that its just 4 throws per round for me to become a 1000+ rated player and in my case 90 percent of the time its all in my head but its still something I have to overcome and with todays competition even if I show up to at NT and average 1000 rated rounds I still may not even cash!!! And that right there is enough to keep ANYONE in the advanced division untill they are a 990 rated player!!! I understand that people have to pay their dues and what not but lets be serious.........unless a 965 rated player is still rapidly improving they have no business playing in the Open division unless they are fine with cashing next to NEVER!!!
I thought Pro 2 was a great way to solve this problem but not enough players entered and not enough TDs offered it and by the time anyone knew it was even an option it was GONE!!!
Like I said I have no problem donating in the Open division when my bank account allows it but as far as right now is concerned I have to wait till I save some more money before I just go out and DONATE it!!!
Maybe an expert division where cash and prizes are offered is that answer........Maybe its not.........but the bigger the player base gets the more of a problem this is going to become!!! Maybe we need a division thats like the Nationwide tour is for the PGA!!! These guys are too good to play as amatuers but just not quite good enough to play on the PGA........So they go on the Nationwide tour and practice and compete and barely make any money unless they are the best on the nationwide which may equate to a 980-990 rated player in the PDGA but they make enough to get by and get from tournament to tournament so they can keep thier focus on the game and nothing else!!! I would love to barely make enough money to live and just play disc golf......That way I could spend all the time I spend at my job on the course and at tournaments and getting my game to the level where I could be on the road full time playing in the Open division and cashing at every event!!!
I just dont have that luxury right now and if I go and play every tournament I can and dont cash I will run out of money and have to go back and find another job!!!
I just think that the gap from the top of the Advanced division to the last cashing spot in the Open division is too large!!!
Just my 2 cents
denny1210
Apr 08 2007, 11:50 PM
Just an FYI:
The last cashing spot in the open division for all A-tiers, NT's, and Majors held in the States for 2006 averaged 992 golf. I didn't look at the numbers for B's & C's, but would bet that it's lower.
One thing that always puzzled about the Pro<955 playing advanced was that they could play down in B & C tiers, but not for A's and Majors. This seems backwards to me. It'd be nice to let guys like Millz play up for the cheaper events where they have a chance to cash and still play in advanced for the bigger events.
Someone please remind me why we decided to not allow am's to take funny money for cashing in open.
The last cashing spot in the open division for all A-tiers, NT's, and Majors held in the States for 2006 averaged 992 golf. I didn't look at the numbers for B's & C's, but would bet that it's lower.
One thing that always puzzled about the Pro<955 playing advanced was that they could play down in B & C tiers, but not for A's and Majors. This seems backwards to me. It'd be nice to let guys like Millz play up for the cheaper events where they have a chance to cash and still play in advanced for the bigger events.
Someone please remind me why we decided to not allow am's to take funny money for cashing in open.
gang4010
Apr 09 2007, 08:31 AM
I didn't say it was easy, but the difference between 3-4 strokes a round at 960, is a whole lot easier than at 1000.
Says who? You constantly berate players for not playing with and donating to the better players, as if anyone can get to your level or higher for just four rounds let alone a full year to earn a rating at that level. There's no proof that's the case. There are players who have practiced and played for years that have ratings 30-40 points lower than players who rarely practice whether at 820 & 860 or 870 & 910. 3-4 shots improvement over your "natural" level is just as tough at any level.
Your advice is appropriate. But the effort can yield little at all levels for those who have peaked.
Chuck, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself on this topic - I don't blame the players for being offered a choice - I criticize the system that allows the choices. I didn't berate other players - note my post - (where you yourself acknowledge how appropriate my advice is) where I tried to give players on the cusp of "success" a tool to use to achieve it. Says who? Says me! The 950ish rated player largely fits into the category of having achieved the necessary physical skills to compete in ANY division, and largely has not yet mastered the mental skills to successfully manage complete rounds, or complete multiple rounds of tournament golf.
The notion that I as a 1000 rated player have achieved some unreachable skill level for anyone else, is somewhat amusing to me. I don't consider myself "in another league", or substantially better than the guys I see and play with regularly with ratings in the 950+ range. I see those guys do AMAZING things! Regularly. The 4 stroke jump I speak of I equate to just another learned set of skills -yes that anybody can learn! And these are not skills that have to change your physical skill set (at least not substantially), they are largely mental skills, decision making skills, pattern recognition skills, course management skills. These are the skills you aquire when you play with better players - you don't get to observe them anywhere else. This is why I encourage players to play Open. I couldn't care less about "padding my pocket" - that "he just wants my money" line is a load of crap - if it were true - I'd be out playing every weekend. The jump from 950-1000 is one of those "discovery" plateau's that may come easier for some than others, but it is not unattainable for any player. The evidence is in the number of new players who have accomplished the 1000+ rating. Are all these guys just showing up with magical skills? No, they've gone through a natural learning progression that includes first the physical skill set, and then the mental skill set. It is the vast minority that shows up out of the blue with both sets ready to use. Your reference to 820-860 level players is inappropriate in this instance, as these players are largely still developing the actual physical skills it takes to score well.
It is a more expensive learning experience than in the past - but that just speaks to the choices a player makes about what events to attend. I've said this before also - no one is forced to pay $100 entry fees. If the event is to expensive - PICK ANOTHER ONE THAT ISN'T! There are literally hundreds to choose from.
Says who? You constantly berate players for not playing with and donating to the better players, as if anyone can get to your level or higher for just four rounds let alone a full year to earn a rating at that level. There's no proof that's the case. There are players who have practiced and played for years that have ratings 30-40 points lower than players who rarely practice whether at 820 & 860 or 870 & 910. 3-4 shots improvement over your "natural" level is just as tough at any level.
Your advice is appropriate. But the effort can yield little at all levels for those who have peaked.
Chuck, I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself on this topic - I don't blame the players for being offered a choice - I criticize the system that allows the choices. I didn't berate other players - note my post - (where you yourself acknowledge how appropriate my advice is) where I tried to give players on the cusp of "success" a tool to use to achieve it. Says who? Says me! The 950ish rated player largely fits into the category of having achieved the necessary physical skills to compete in ANY division, and largely has not yet mastered the mental skills to successfully manage complete rounds, or complete multiple rounds of tournament golf.
The notion that I as a 1000 rated player have achieved some unreachable skill level for anyone else, is somewhat amusing to me. I don't consider myself "in another league", or substantially better than the guys I see and play with regularly with ratings in the 950+ range. I see those guys do AMAZING things! Regularly. The 4 stroke jump I speak of I equate to just another learned set of skills -yes that anybody can learn! And these are not skills that have to change your physical skill set (at least not substantially), they are largely mental skills, decision making skills, pattern recognition skills, course management skills. These are the skills you aquire when you play with better players - you don't get to observe them anywhere else. This is why I encourage players to play Open. I couldn't care less about "padding my pocket" - that "he just wants my money" line is a load of crap - if it were true - I'd be out playing every weekend. The jump from 950-1000 is one of those "discovery" plateau's that may come easier for some than others, but it is not unattainable for any player. The evidence is in the number of new players who have accomplished the 1000+ rating. Are all these guys just showing up with magical skills? No, they've gone through a natural learning progression that includes first the physical skill set, and then the mental skill set. It is the vast minority that shows up out of the blue with both sets ready to use. Your reference to 820-860 level players is inappropriate in this instance, as these players are largely still developing the actual physical skills it takes to score well.
It is a more expensive learning experience than in the past - but that just speaks to the choices a player makes about what events to attend. I've said this before also - no one is forced to pay $100 entry fees. If the event is to expensive - PICK ANOTHER ONE THAT ISN'T! There are literally hundreds to choose from.
bruce_brakel
Apr 09 2007, 09:59 AM
This is not a reply to the last post but my own observation.
I've seen some 955+ rated ams posting that they play Advanced only because they are not ready to go pro.
Three times now I've offered an Expert division at tournaments I've run. Three times now I've seen the Expert Ams find some other tournament to play that weekend where they could bag in Advanced.
Tell me how many times I have to repeat this experiment before we can draw some conclusions.
I've seen some 955+ rated ams posting that they play Advanced only because they are not ready to go pro.
Three times now I've offered an Expert division at tournaments I've run. Three times now I've seen the Expert Ams find some other tournament to play that weekend where they could bag in Advanced.
Tell me how many times I have to repeat this experiment before we can draw some conclusions.
ck34
Apr 09 2007, 10:45 AM
The notion that I as a 1000 rated player have achieved some unreachable skill level for anyone else, is somewhat amusing to me. I don't consider myself "in another league", or substantially better than the guys I see and play with regularly with ratings in the 950+ range.
You may not see yourself as in a different league but the facts show otherwise. I've done longitudinal studies of ratings changes over 5 years that essentially shows no ratings change for pros under age 40. The groups analyzed were 28 yr old pros and 35 yr old pros who had been pros for at least 3 years at the start of the 5-yr period. The 28-yr olds average rating increased 3 pts from 953 to 956 over 5 years and the 35-yr olds decreased 3 pts from 952 to 949. Two-thirds of the players equally had ratings changes no more than 24 pts either up or down and 19 out of 20 had changes less than 50 pts either way.
Remember that these players are relatively young veterans since they were already pros for 3 years before the 5-yr period where we watched their ratings change. They would already have gone thru their Am learning curve for at least a few years before becoming pros. The implication that using Craig's ideas to change their natural maximum ability just doesn't hold up. Of course, there are always newer players on the upswing who can benefit from coaching to get to their natural maximums. But once you've peaked, getting an extra 10 points becomes increasingly more difficult and potentially impossible. Ratings for Pros over 40 start declining on average.
You may not see yourself as in a different league but the facts show otherwise. I've done longitudinal studies of ratings changes over 5 years that essentially shows no ratings change for pros under age 40. The groups analyzed were 28 yr old pros and 35 yr old pros who had been pros for at least 3 years at the start of the 5-yr period. The 28-yr olds average rating increased 3 pts from 953 to 956 over 5 years and the 35-yr olds decreased 3 pts from 952 to 949. Two-thirds of the players equally had ratings changes no more than 24 pts either up or down and 19 out of 20 had changes less than 50 pts either way.
Remember that these players are relatively young veterans since they were already pros for 3 years before the 5-yr period where we watched their ratings change. They would already have gone thru their Am learning curve for at least a few years before becoming pros. The implication that using Craig's ideas to change their natural maximum ability just doesn't hold up. Of course, there are always newer players on the upswing who can benefit from coaching to get to their natural maximums. But once you've peaked, getting an extra 10 points becomes increasingly more difficult and potentially impossible. Ratings for Pros over 40 start declining on average.
md21954
Apr 09 2007, 10:57 AM
i'd like to see the same analysis, but with divisions thrown out the window. if i understand the methodology correctly, the group most likely to improve was probably thrown out (those who have recently moved am to open regardless of rating).
ck34
Apr 09 2007, 11:07 AM
I don't think anyone would be surprised that players will have a ratings increase when moving from Am to Pro because the reason most have done so is their rating has been improving. What we don't know and they don't know yet is where their natural maximum will be. The stats show that once you get there (and "there" has been in the 960 area on average for pros), it's hard to move much higher.
gang4010
Apr 09 2007, 01:28 PM
Not enough information. How many events did the average "pro" play in? How many A Tiers and above?
The notion that an old dog can't learn a new trick has been disproven in a multitude of venues.
Is there difficulty in attaining "the next plateau" in terms of ones disc golf abilities? Of course there is. How many in your study benefited from mentoring from upper level players? Somehow your stated data set seems woefully incomplete to provide adequate criteria for your conclusions.
I maintain not only the belief - but the practice of helping other players realize their potential. I have met very few who have "actually" peaked as you say - but plenty who have merely settled into patterns that cause their abilities to stagnate. I will state again EMPHATICALLY that the first and best thing any player can do to improve in their tournament performance is to develop self confidence. Belief in one's self is the root from which so many other things spring. If you are a 960 rated player who wants to be competitive, who spends time trying to improve - know that you CAN!! And tell anyone who tells you you CAN'T - to keep their opinions to themselves!
The notion that an old dog can't learn a new trick has been disproven in a multitude of venues.
Is there difficulty in attaining "the next plateau" in terms of ones disc golf abilities? Of course there is. How many in your study benefited from mentoring from upper level players? Somehow your stated data set seems woefully incomplete to provide adequate criteria for your conclusions.
I maintain not only the belief - but the practice of helping other players realize their potential. I have met very few who have "actually" peaked as you say - but plenty who have merely settled into patterns that cause their abilities to stagnate. I will state again EMPHATICALLY that the first and best thing any player can do to improve in their tournament performance is to develop self confidence. Belief in one's self is the root from which so many other things spring. If you are a 960 rated player who wants to be competitive, who spends time trying to improve - know that you CAN!! And tell anyone who tells you you CAN'T - to keep their opinions to themselves!
Jeff_LaG
Apr 09 2007, 04:13 PM
Self confidence is no more or no less important or essential for a 950-rated player than a 1020-rated player or a 880-rated player. Attaining the next plateau is no harder or easier at any skill range. When you peak, you peak. And even with all the self-confidence in the world, a 950-rated golfer statistically has little hope against 1000-rated or higher golfers in the average tournament.
ninafofitre
Apr 09 2007, 04:18 PM
I don't think anyone would be surprised that players will have a ratings increase when moving from Am to Pro because the reason most have done so is their rating has been improving. What we don't know and they don't know yet is where their natural maximum will be. The stats show that once you get there (and "there" has been in the 960 area on average for pros), it's hard to move much higher.
"_________________________________________" <---------insert ratings conspiracy theory here ;)
"_________________________________________" <---------insert ratings conspiracy theory here ;)
ck34
Apr 09 2007, 05:15 PM
Not enough information. How many events did the average "pro" play in? How many A Tiers and above?
The notion that an old dog can't learn a new trick has been disproven in a multitude of venues. Somehow your stated data set seems woefully incomplete to provide adequate criteria for your conclusions.
My data includes 100% of all male PDGA members who meet the criteria at each age who have been pros for three years before before starting the 5-yr data period. There are no other data points so I have 100% of the total data available. It's not just a sample.
No one is disagreeing that someone can shoot a round up to 100 points over their base rating for one round, even if they've peaked. But doing it for four rounds or one year is quite different. Likewise, just as many players occasionally shoot 100 points below their rating.
The assumption that there are 100s of untapped Climos already playing in pro for 8 years is laughable. Many of us judge players in other sports on "how good they are" and no matter what, they won't ever be shooting like Nash, playing like Tiger, volleying like Federer or throwing like Brady. There's no reason to believe disc golf is some island of humanity where natural abilities are somehow irrelevant and your skill is strictly based on training and practice.
Time and again, top players who stop playing for two or three years will soon regain their skill level while an 900 lifer will not get better while playing and practicing for that same time period. I'm only one of many players whose rating has been in a narrow 20-pt range whether I've played lots of events or hardly any during periods like now and 2001 when I'm involved with Worlds prep. Barring injury, I'm pretty sure I could quickly get back to shooting 950 rounds three years from now if I stopped playing tomorrow.
The notion that an old dog can't learn a new trick has been disproven in a multitude of venues. Somehow your stated data set seems woefully incomplete to provide adequate criteria for your conclusions.
My data includes 100% of all male PDGA members who meet the criteria at each age who have been pros for three years before before starting the 5-yr data period. There are no other data points so I have 100% of the total data available. It's not just a sample.
No one is disagreeing that someone can shoot a round up to 100 points over their base rating for one round, even if they've peaked. But doing it for four rounds or one year is quite different. Likewise, just as many players occasionally shoot 100 points below their rating.
The assumption that there are 100s of untapped Climos already playing in pro for 8 years is laughable. Many of us judge players in other sports on "how good they are" and no matter what, they won't ever be shooting like Nash, playing like Tiger, volleying like Federer or throwing like Brady. There's no reason to believe disc golf is some island of humanity where natural abilities are somehow irrelevant and your skill is strictly based on training and practice.
Time and again, top players who stop playing for two or three years will soon regain their skill level while an 900 lifer will not get better while playing and practicing for that same time period. I'm only one of many players whose rating has been in a narrow 20-pt range whether I've played lots of events or hardly any during periods like now and 2001 when I'm involved with Worlds prep. Barring injury, I'm pretty sure I could quickly get back to shooting 950 rounds three years from now if I stopped playing tomorrow.
cbdiscpimp
Apr 09 2007, 07:15 PM
It is a more expensive learning experience than in the past - but that just speaks to the choices a player makes about what events to attend. I've said this before also - no one is forced to pay $100 entry fees. If the event is to expensive - PICK ANOTHER ONE THAT ISN'T! There are literally hundreds to choose from.
I understand everything that your saying!!! I myself even admit that I could play 1000+ golf on a regular basis if I just made better choices when I played!!! I can think back threw a round and find atleast 4 strokes that I took that were almost 100% due to the fact that I made a bad mental decision!!! Whether it was to run a putt for 2 that I shouldnt have and I end up taking a 4!!! Whethere is was to go for a 2 on a next to impossible duece hole and I take a 4 or any number of mental errors!!!
The thing about the entry fees though!!! If you want to watch and learn the mental skills of the best you have to play in the biggest and best tournaments all the time and those are usually going to cost you 100+ dollars to play in!!! Im not saying there arent good players at lower level and less exspensive tournaments but heck if im going to pay to learn I want to pay to learn from the biggest and best fields I can!!!
So in the long run its just going to be really exspensive to learn from the best!!! I just wish there was another place that the good but not quite great players could hone and learn these skills while still making enough money to play every weekend!!! Hell call it an expert divsion and card us with the Open division!!! We get to play and learn with the best but only compete again peaople in our skill level!!! If we play well enough to take 5th in Open so be it we will only win the Expert division!!!'
Just 2 more of my cents!!! Heck if I keep posting I might NEVER get to play a tournament!!! LOL
I understand everything that your saying!!! I myself even admit that I could play 1000+ golf on a regular basis if I just made better choices when I played!!! I can think back threw a round and find atleast 4 strokes that I took that were almost 100% due to the fact that I made a bad mental decision!!! Whether it was to run a putt for 2 that I shouldnt have and I end up taking a 4!!! Whethere is was to go for a 2 on a next to impossible duece hole and I take a 4 or any number of mental errors!!!
The thing about the entry fees though!!! If you want to watch and learn the mental skills of the best you have to play in the biggest and best tournaments all the time and those are usually going to cost you 100+ dollars to play in!!! Im not saying there arent good players at lower level and less exspensive tournaments but heck if im going to pay to learn I want to pay to learn from the biggest and best fields I can!!!
So in the long run its just going to be really exspensive to learn from the best!!! I just wish there was another place that the good but not quite great players could hone and learn these skills while still making enough money to play every weekend!!! Hell call it an expert divsion and card us with the Open division!!! We get to play and learn with the best but only compete again peaople in our skill level!!! If we play well enough to take 5th in Open so be it we will only win the Expert division!!!'
Just 2 more of my cents!!! Heck if I keep posting I might NEVER get to play a tournament!!! LOL
denny1210
Apr 09 2007, 08:42 PM
The thing about the entry fees though!!! If you want to watch and learn the mental skills of the best you have to play in the biggest and best tournaments all the time and those are usually going to cost you 100+ dollars to play in!!!
Spectating is free and you get to watch the best play the whole tournament and not just the first round before the shuffle. Better yet, volunteer to caddy and you might earn beer money out of it. :D
Spectating is free and you get to watch the best play the whole tournament and not just the first round before the shuffle. Better yet, volunteer to caddy and you might earn beer money out of it. :D
cbdiscpimp
Apr 09 2007, 09:11 PM
The thing about the entry fees though!!! If you want to watch and learn the mental skills of the best you have to play in the biggest and best tournaments all the time and those are usually going to cost you 100+ dollars to play in!!!
Spectating is free and you get to watch the best play the whole tournament and not just the first round before the shuffle. Better yet, volunteer to caddy and you might earn beer money out of it. :D
Dont even think for a minute that I am going to come all the way to Crystal River this November just to WATCH the Players Cup!!! Ill be out there trying to get revenge and start the tournament with something less then a Triple OB 9!!! Even if it does cost me 225 dollars to get in!!!
Spectating is free and you get to watch the best play the whole tournament and not just the first round before the shuffle. Better yet, volunteer to caddy and you might earn beer money out of it. :D
Dont even think for a minute that I am going to come all the way to Crystal River this November just to WATCH the Players Cup!!! Ill be out there trying to get revenge and start the tournament with something less then a Triple OB 9!!! Even if it does cost me 225 dollars to get in!!!
denny1210
Apr 09 2007, 09:43 PM
I've been on the fence about whether I can afford to take the weekend off and pay the entry fee for the Red Hawk Am to try to win my entry fee. The Players Cup is actually a tournament where a 960 rated player, that plays smart and safe can cash. Make 3 birdies and 2 bogeys per round and you're in the money!
cbdiscpimp
Apr 09 2007, 09:48 PM
I've been on the fence about whether I can afford to take the weekend off and pay the entry fee for the Red Hawk Am to try to win my entry fee. The Players Cup is actually a tournament where a 960 rated player, that plays smart and safe can cash. Make 3 birdies and 2 bogeys per round and you're in the money!
I was a tiny bit in the hole after taking a Triple OB 9 on the 1st hole of my tournament!!! Not to mention that the thumb on my throwing hand was spurting blood all over my discs when I threw the 1st 2 rounds!!! :mad:
I will for sure be back to try my luck again this year!!!
I was a tiny bit in the hole after taking a Triple OB 9 on the 1st hole of my tournament!!! Not to mention that the thumb on my throwing hand was spurting blood all over my discs when I threw the 1st 2 rounds!!! :mad:
I will for sure be back to try my luck again this year!!!
denny1210
Apr 09 2007, 10:02 PM
That hole grew some serious teeth when that wind picked up. It's too bad it won't be back this year, for you to get some payback. :(
terrycalhoun
Apr 10 2007, 05:10 PM
I was happy with how Bowling Green turned out. Even with a truckload of 965-980 guys, a 948 guy (legimately rated as an Am) took home the title.
"Was that an amnestied pro who won in Am Master?" asked the fellow accustomed to throwing rocks at hornets nests.
I think the guy who took first was not amnestied, Bruce, although someone told me that 2-4 may have been. As someone competing against them, I truly didn't mind, though. If I'd played a better first round I'd have been on their tails.
A couple of the guys who I beat overall were amnestied Pro Masters, and I was middle of the field due to that poor first round. (For anti-age-division folks, that was on the one relatively long course we played: I was, I think, 866 on that one, but averaged about 957 on the other three (shorter) courses.)
"Was that an amnestied pro who won in Am Master?" asked the fellow accustomed to throwing rocks at hornets nests.
I think the guy who took first was not amnestied, Bruce, although someone told me that 2-4 may have been. As someone competing against them, I truly didn't mind, though. If I'd played a better first round I'd have been on their tails.
A couple of the guys who I beat overall were amnestied Pro Masters, and I was middle of the field due to that poor first round. (For anti-age-division folks, that was on the one relatively long course we played: I was, I think, 866 on that one, but averaged about 957 on the other three (shorter) courses.)
jparmley
Apr 10 2007, 05:59 PM
I think it boils down to your mental approach. The best pros in the world (1000+) have a mental fortitude that a highly rated amateur does not, hence the inconsistancies in the ADV division. The ability to calm your nerves before that big putt or forgetting that 5 you just took on the last hole is the difference between AMs and Pros. Yes, physical abilities play a factor, but there are plenty of 1000 rated players who don't drive but 400 ft. They make up for distance with approaches and PUTTING (this is usually the reason why hightly rated adv players bag down...they're not confident putters). I'm right there in the middle at 959 and I'm finding that it's not the physical talents, it's my mental game that's holding me back. I think this is what people mean when people "peak".
There's also the PARTY factor. Good Pros take tournaments seriously...AM's typically party it up on Saturday night and it usually shows on Sunday. The moment you say "I'm not going to get hammered tonight so I can be competitive tommorrow" is the first step in becoming competitive in the open division. Are you willing to sacrifice the fun for the cash? I'm still debating this one......
There's also the PARTY factor. Good Pros take tournaments seriously...AM's typically party it up on Saturday night and it usually shows on Sunday. The moment you say "I'm not going to get hammered tonight so I can be competitive tommorrow" is the first step in becoming competitive in the open division. Are you willing to sacrifice the fun for the cash? I'm still debating this one......
ninafofitre
Apr 10 2007, 06:41 PM
You will always have AM's higher than 955 when ADVANCED entry fees are $75 compared to OPEN entry fees are $135. Once the entry fees are similar the high rated ADV guy will consider moving up.
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
denny1210
Apr 10 2007, 06:42 PM
There's also the PARTY factor. Good Pros take tournaments seriously...AM's typically party it up on Saturday night and it usually shows on Sunday.
I guess I must have dreamed that a half dozen pros stumbled through the tournament central suite between 3 and 4 am on Saturday night during the Players Cup.
I guess I must have dreamed that a half dozen pros stumbled through the tournament central suite between 3 and 4 am on Saturday night during the Players Cup.
rhett
Apr 10 2007, 06:43 PM
You will always have AM's higher than 955 when ADVANCED entry fees are $75 compared to OPEN entry fees are $135. Once the entry fees are similar the high rated ADV guy will consider moving up.
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
Word.
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
Word.
ninafofitre
Apr 10 2007, 06:43 PM
Great Lakes Open
$132 for OPEN
$56 for ADV
Why would any player EVER want to move up to OPEN?
$132 for OPEN
$56 for ADV
Why would any player EVER want to move up to OPEN?
denny1210
Apr 10 2007, 06:51 PM
You will always have AM's higher than 955 when ADVANCED entry fees are $75 compared to OPEN entry fees are $135. Once the entry fees are similar the high rated ADV guy will consider moving up.
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
That's why I say we bring back letting am's take funny money for cashing in open. At the smaller, cheaper tournaments the 970-985 guys can play up if they want and get paid in plastic if they "cash". The open purse gets bigger, the advanced guys complain about the 950 rated baggers, instead of the 970 rated baggers, and the limbo-zone guys get a chance to retain their am-status to compete in the big am-events at the highest amateur level.
The same basic thing exists for the top of the amateur golf pool. They get to compete for the state and national amateur titles, but play in some pro tournaments. Although they don't get to keep the cash in the pro tournaments, they usually are sponsored for entry fees, travel, lodging meals, and equipment.
We need to make it where it's a decision based on skill not a financial decision. ;)
That's why I say we bring back letting am's take funny money for cashing in open. At the smaller, cheaper tournaments the 970-985 guys can play up if they want and get paid in plastic if they "cash". The open purse gets bigger, the advanced guys complain about the 950 rated baggers, instead of the 970 rated baggers, and the limbo-zone guys get a chance to retain their am-status to compete in the big am-events at the highest amateur level.
The same basic thing exists for the top of the amateur golf pool. They get to compete for the state and national amateur titles, but play in some pro tournaments. Although they don't get to keep the cash in the pro tournaments, they usually are sponsored for entry fees, travel, lodging meals, and equipment.
denny1210
Apr 10 2007, 06:58 PM
not to mention, TD's are happy since they paid out plastic instead of $'s.
cbdiscpimp
Apr 10 2007, 11:32 PM
There's also the PARTY factor. Good Pros take tournaments seriously...AM's typically party it up on Saturday night and it usually shows on Sunday.
I guess I must have dreamed that a half dozen pros stumbled through the tournament central suite between 3 and 4 am on Saturday night during the Players Cup.
That was not a dream and it was probly more like 10-15 LMFAO!!!
I guess I must have dreamed that a half dozen pros stumbled through the tournament central suite between 3 and 4 am on Saturday night during the Players Cup.
That was not a dream and it was probly more like 10-15 LMFAO!!!
aerohead
Apr 11 2007, 11:42 AM
That hole grew some serious teeth when that wind picked up. It's too bad it won't be back this year, for you to get some payback. :(
Hey Denny,
Will the course be set up for the red hawk AMs the same way as for the Players Cup?
Butch
Hey Denny,
Will the course be set up for the red hawk AMs the same way as for the Players Cup?
Butch
esalazar
Apr 11 2007, 12:51 PM
That hole grew some serious teeth when that wind picked up. It's too bad it won't be back this year, for you to get some payback. :(
Hey Denny,
Will the course be set up for the red hawk AMs the same way as for the Players Cup?
Butch
Butch, thanks again for the hospitality!!
Hey Denny,
Will the course be set up for the red hawk AMs the same way as for the Players Cup?
Butch
Butch, thanks again for the hospitality!!
DSproAVIAR
Apr 11 2007, 01:30 PM
I'm right there in the middle at 959 and I'm finding that it's not the physical talents, it's my mental game that's holding me back. I think this is what people mean when people "peak".
I think most Ams rated 955+ would agree with you there. Know that you can.
I think most Ams rated 955+ would agree with you there. Know that you can.
mikeP
Apr 12 2007, 09:02 AM
There's also the PARTY factor. Good Pros take tournaments seriously...AM's typically party it up on Saturday night and it usually shows on Sunday. The moment you say "I'm not going to get hammered tonight so I can be competitive tommorrow" is the first step in becoming competitive in the open division. Are you willing to sacrifice the fun for the cash? I'm still debating this one......
Wow. Here in Florida, if an AM parties harder than you, then you are not a REAL pro! Seriously, most touring golfers party like rock stars in my experience, and then go out and take care of business on the course. Heck, Climo could party all night without sleep and still beat 100 well rested 960 players.
Wow. Here in Florida, if an AM parties harder than you, then you are not a REAL pro! Seriously, most touring golfers party like rock stars in my experience, and then go out and take care of business on the course. Heck, Climo could party all night without sleep and still beat 100 well rested 960 players.
aerohead
Apr 14 2007, 08:36 AM
Butch, thanks again for the hospitality!!
Hey E! you're welcome. ya'll should come back for the SSP open.
Take care.
Hey E! you're welcome. ya'll should come back for the SSP open.
Take care.
Flash_25296
Apr 19 2007, 10:35 PM
So has anyone come up with a good reason why Angst idea is not valid, it seems like this thread has drifted off course like a sail boat in a squall!
Setup more divisions based on player ratings, if the PDGA believes the raitngs are accurate then the divisions should be as well!
Setup more divisions based on player ratings, if the PDGA believes the raitngs are accurate then the divisions should be as well!
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