It struck me playing in a tournament at Hudson Mills last week that if the tee pads had been black or very dark, there would likely have been less snow and ice on some of them.

Since we have a new city course going in very soon, is it worth seeing if the city would do that with the concrete?

Does anyone know how to do it in a way that will not result in inferior concrete ends later maintenance issues?

Brilliant observation, Terry. A dyed tee pad would definitely result in a quicker "melt time".

We are in discussion with Moraine State Park (http://pdga.com/course/courses_by_city.php?id=2161) officials regarding the installation of concrete tee pads. If tee pads are approved, one of the conditional requirements would be "dyed" concrete for aesthetic purposes. Park management has requested either a dark green or brown dye in effort to make the concrete slabs less noticeable. Quicker ice melt would be an added bonus.

Terry,

I've looked into colored tee pads before and was very surprised to learn that it nearly doubles the cost of the pads. Additionally, the sunlight fades the dye in a very short time, making it a waste of money in my opinion.

What is this thing you call snow? :D

Regards,
Brian Graham

I've looked into colored tee pads before and was very surprised to learn that it nearly doubles the cost of the pads. Additionally, the sunlight fades the dye in a very short time, making it a waste of money in my opinion.




Good info. Thanks, Brian!

The Calvert disc golf course outside of Washington D.C. used to have black asphalt (macadam) tee pads, which bright sunshine would melt snow quickly from.

Codorus State Park in Hanover, PA still has these pads.

Asphault is black and 25-33% the cost of concrete. It also has no water content that can freeze and crack or chip. It does suffer more abuse, but it's also so much cheaper to replace or just patch.

And it gets really soft in Texas in the summer time.

You also don't have a problem with ice and snow on the teepads there. We're talking about utilizing these teepads in Michigan and Pennsylvania, not Texas. :D

We used asphalt at Dunham Park for the tees. We then stained the asphalt grey and added sand in the stain for increased grippage. In wet conditions this tee pad has proved to be just as grippy as concrete at a third of the cost. :D

I believe the preferred term is "African American". Also, I see no reason why the sport can't be integrated and just have everyone play from the same tees.

before anyone gets upset, that joke was suggested by my african-american boss. We thought it was hilarious, hopefully so does everyone else... but just in case someone takes it the wrong way, I promise you it is all in fun :)

I believe the preferred term is "African American". Also, I see no reason why the sport can't be integrated and just have everyone play from the same tees.



Josh, you beat me to the punch..

This part of Texas can benefit from this discussion ;)

This part of Texas can benefit from this discussion ;)



True dat. Amarillo gets a lot more snow and ice than Houston. :D

We sure did this year! We didn't get the 80 inches that were predicted, but I know I shovelled a lot of that white stuff off of the tee pads, and one day I had to do them twice! :D

Teepads with built in radiant heating would be the way to go. No more shoveling!

Yeah! It will come to that some day. I could see a solar power device on top of the signage which warms the pad when it has energy. And, when it comes to that, how about a device in each tee pad's signage where the players can record their scores in a way that sends them instantly to tournament central?

Brian, thanks. When I broached the colored concrete to one of our parks architects/planners, she told me the same thing - it costs a lot more.

Brian, thanks. When I broached the colored concrete to one of our parks architects/planners, she told me the same thing - it costs a lot more.



When I inquired to a Concrete manufacturer, I was advised to get my own "Dye" (by the 90lb sack) and "powder" the surfaces when poured.
It would be MUCH cheaper that way.
I NEVER did get the chance to do it though :(

my wife (and fellow disc golfer) works for a company called Sundek that does specialty concrete surfaces. I've been working up a proposition to get them to sponsor teepads at one of the courses we support. In exchange for installing the pads, they would get their name on the teesign with a small blurb about which custom stain or design they used on this particular pad. It's great advertising for them and nice teepads for us. I think that something similar could be done to get the teepads "colored" dark enough to provide the effect you're talking about here.

If I ever get this proposition put together, I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Hey, Joshua, I like that idea a lot. Given that many disc golfers - at least around here - are in the trades, this should be a "natural."

I am curious what the intent of a darker colored teepad is for? Is it just for looks? Or to melt snow?

If the intent is to make better looking teepads cool.

But if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.

Richard

if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.





Judging by your location, you should probably avoid this particular discussion altogether. :D

the idea is that it would help but not necessarily eliminate the need for shoveling. if the teepad was already warmed before the snow started falling, it wouldn't stick nearly as well. Ice wouldn't accumulate as much, and any time the dark color was visible through the snow, it would have the desired effect, at least to some extent. It's better than the light grey-to-nearly-white teepads that usually get installed :)

But if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.

Can't say I completely understand the physics, but I have noticed that darker areas lose snow first. You can see it at the end of a snow cover on farm fields. The fields that are darker earth are where the snow melts first.

It could be that the ground there was warmer to begin with, or since some light does get through anything but very deep snow, it could be that enough gets through to heat up the darker area.

I've also noticed that once someone makes an effort to get a tee area at least partly cleared, it is more likely to stay cleared, better, if it is darker.

But if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.

Can't say I completely understand the physics, but I have noticed that darker areas lose snow first. You can see it at the end of a snow cover on farm fields. The fields that are darker earth are where the snow melts first.

It could be that the ground there was warmer to begin with, or since some light does get through anything but very deep snow, it could be that enough gets through to heat up the darker area.

I've also noticed that once someone makes an effort to get a tee area at least partly cleared, it is more likely to stay cleared, better, if it is darker.



Since we don't know all the pyshics, why not test the theory before making a bunch of dark colored teepads.

Get a piece of black plastic and a piece of white plastic about the size of a piece of paper. Get a 100 watt heat lamp and set it up so that it is about 18 inches away from the two pieces of plastic. Bury the two plastic sheet in an equal amount of snow or ice. Turn on the light and see which one melts the fastest. If the snow and ice on the black plastic melts faster the theory is sound. This would be a very simple test and would tell you if creating dark colored teepads would yield any sort of snow melting benefit.

Richard
in Sun Diego

Darker colors absorb light whereas lighter colors reflect light. That is why a white t-shirt "feels" cooler in the summer sun as opposed to wearing a black t-shirt. The same concept applies to dark vs light colored tee pads. The following web site provides a scientific explanation in relation to this discussion:

http://www.einsteinathome.org/ask/archive/misc-qa1.html

It's currently snowing here in Pittsburgh...sure wish I was in Sun Diego. :cool:

I am curious what the intent of a darker colored teepad is for? Is it just for looks? Or to melt snow?

If the intent is to make better looking teepads cool.

But if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.

Richard



In our case, it had NOTHING to do with Snow....It was purely to "Blend" with the environment.

At Stafford.....White(Gray) Tees would stand out on the hillside from a distance.....we were going for a natural "Dirt" color :D

Has anyone ever considered pervious concrete?

www.perviouspavement.org (http://www.perviouspavement.org)
www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/newspaper/jan22a04.html (http://www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/newspaper/jan22a04.html)


No standing water, no snow accumlation, dry tee pads.......it is considered a "green product", so that might be a selling point to a parks dept.

Has anyone else noticed the loss of turf around tee area's??

I am curious what the intent of a darker colored teepad is for? Is it just for looks? Or to melt snow?

If the intent is to make better looking teepads cool.

But if the intent is that a darker teepad will melt snow so that you can avoid shoveling, I think you are wasting money. Doesn't snow reflect light and heat? If so, then a dark teepad would provide no snow melting benifit once it was buried under the snow.

Richard



What color is a polar bear's skin? Once you get past the bear's fur (which I believe is actually clear, hollow tubes), thier skin is black to help collect whatever sunlight/warmth filters through. Thus the reason for thinking that dark colored tee pads will help melt snow faster.

Harold Duvall was asked by Winthrop to dye the teepads green there to match the grass. I do not remember how much dye was put into those pads, but it was a lot, and they did not alter the color very much. Perhaps there is new dye technology now, but it did not work well at Winthrop.

you should see some of the stuff they do with stains/dyes and concrete. Check out these photos. They are all of treated concrete:

http://www.sundek.com/photos/

yes, this is the company my better half works for :)

"Quikrete" makes a liquid cement coloring...

the albedo of snow (ratio of energy reflected to energy delivered) is very high. that means it is a good insulator. if there was uncovered black surfaces near the snow, it would help it melt faster from more energy reflected; but I don't think that simply making them dark will have much of an effect. ever seen the depressions in the snow around trees in the forest in very northern areas? that is the result of energy reflected from the trees to the snow immediately surrounding them. something must receive energy in order to reflect it, and snow is reflecting away most of the energy from the sun instead of letting it get to the teepad.

The term is blackbody radiation...where a darker color will absorb the lights energy better than the lighter color...thus keeping teepades clear of snow. and in the warmer climates, they are less of an aesthetic pain

Flypads ;)
Go green
with fly18
100% recycled tee pads.

Flypads dont help melt snow.

Ask the people who play in the snow they will tell you different...Snow sticks to the road not to the tire... ;)

i've been playing in bismarck, nd yesterday i played and we had -25 below windchills. It wasn't too bad if you dress for it...not to mention it sucks when you play a long course. I can't keep myself from playing. So far, i haven't seen another player yet this winter, besides the ones i'm playing with. No such thing as bad weather, just bad preparation!!

Flypads will also walk yor dog, cook your breakfast, and <u>(insert your own miracle here)</u> . Whatever...

Dont forget they remove warts,correct back problems,and can repair a marriage..and in your case improve you player rating...Those little black pads are disc golfs magic elixer. ;)BLACK MAGIC

But once the pad is clean and the snow melts and water runs across the pad...

The overnight frozen water on the tee melts faster on the black tee pad than on the light tan...

At 5:00 this evening my asphalt driveway was wet. My concrete patio had a thin coating of ice from our freezing rain...

But once the pad is clean and the snow melts and water runs across the pad...

The overnight frozen water on the tee melts faster on the black tee pad than on the light tan...

At 5:00 this evening my asphalt driveway was wet. My concrete patio had a thin coating of ice from our freezing rain...



www.perviouspavement.org (http://www.perviouspavement.org)
www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/newspaper/jan22a04.html (http://www.aces.edu/dept/extcomm/newspaper/jan22a04.html)

No standing water period......it runs through the concrete....I guess no one got that in my first post. We are getting ready for pads at Cliff Drive ( newer KC course) and this is want I would like to use, if budget and our limted knowledge of this stuff allows for it.

On another note scrap concrete all together and use that recycled tire material that is used for playgrounds. That stuff rocks! There is some on the playground at Water Works that is perfect for warming up drives at 7 a.m. and dew is on the ground, or for all general wet conditions for that matter. No clue about the cost of the stuff or what it's even called.

In my experience doing golf course construction ( and doing the Wide Open), I have learned it's all about getting water on and off a course. Pretty easy stuff when you have the money and resources.

..and in your case improve you player rating...



It's going to take more than a rubber mat to do that.


Dont forget they remove warts,correct back problems,and can repair a marriage



You don't have a legal department you run these things by first, do you?

http://www.cityofkyle.com/parks/steeplechasediscgolf.htm

Ask those boys in Kyle how they like theirs.

I've played on the ones in Kyle and there's very little difference between pervious tee pads and regular concrete ones. It still depends on how they're poured and finished.

Pervious concrete needs to pressure washed and vacuumed regularly in order to prevent dirt from collecting in the space between the material. If you're not going to be able to perform the maintenance on it, you might as well pour regular and much cheaper concrete since that is what the pervious will become without cleaning.