I know there have been several threads on PAR but I thought I�d throw out this question in a new thread..

Is there a feeling out there that it�s okay to call a hole a par 4 (on a permanent tee sign) or should we just call everything par 3?

My club is currently redesigning the course in Montrose, Colorado because some playing fields are being put through several of our holes. The good news is, we wanted to redesign anyway and this allows us to utilize some more wooded areas that will make a better course.

Some of the newer holes will be two shots holes that realistically are par 4s. The only 2s will be field aces or a really spectacular drive and long putt. I know that traditionally, �all holes are par 3� but Chuck K and others have had some great discussions that there are par 4s, 5s and *gasp* par 2s in some cases. We do not want to have par 2s, and we will be doing some creating of �bunkers� to deal with the ones we have.

I ask the above questions because we need new tee signs anyway. There are plenty of holes I�ve played in tournaments (especially at the Hippodrome at 2006 Worlds or the Memorial) where a 4-5 is expected and par. If you happen to be playing a new course, will you just scoff at a sign with, �Par 4�, on it or would it be the direction we want to head in disc golf? I�m just looking for some feedback and ideas from those playing and designing courses.

I should have some distances in a day or two after its GPS-ed by the City. I took the Parks head out today to show him the proposed changes and they are really positive about us. He even said, �You guys are not second-class citizens and have as much right to be involved in the park as any other group�. We are very psyched to make this course even better than it already was.

I'm not sure why you would think pars other than 3 would be unacceptable? In the past, there were tee signs with inflated pars using the original Steady Ed guide to make Rec players feel better. Now, you assign par based on a specific player skill level a set of tees is designed for, typically blue level from the back tees. Look at the PDGA par reference chart as a starting point and make adjustments based on special elements such as elevation, doglegs or extra challenging hazards.

www.pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdf (http://www.pdga.com/documents/PublicPar.pdf)

Thanks for the link Chuck. I've seen that before but had forgotten about it. I've printed it out and plan to use it as a reference. Are you seeing more permanent courses with par 4 and 5 on their tee signs, not just the courses designed and upgraded for Worlds and NT play?

There are not very many par 4s here in Colorado but there are definetely holes where I know a 3 is reasonably the best score I can hope for (which in my definition of a par 4). Not too many par 5's out there yet. I will definetely be working on having white/red tee pads for all the longer holes. The link to the Par sheet will be helpful for that as well.

Thanks again,

-Max

The 100 members of the course designer group are using those guideliens when installing new courses or upgrading existing ones, especially when new signs are installed. Although there can be disagreement on whether a specific hole is a par 3 or 4, or a par 4 or 5, there's no disagreement that there are par 4s and 5s out there that should be indicated on a sign.

No one really wants to see a par 2 marked on a sign. If a hole is truly a par 2, it means the design should be improved. Or, the most likely case is that the skill level of the course may be an easier color than expected. Many old school courses have become more appropriate for White or Red skill level players. Notice that there are no par 2s for White and Red levels on the chart, even on the shortest holes.

I'm not sure why you would think pars other than 3 would be unacceptable?


I can tell you why. Because there are people out there that think every hole is a par 3. They don't care how short or long the hole is it's going to be a par 3. They want to take the number of holes on the course and multiply by 3 to figure out par (for the course). That's fine to some degree but I think the sport needs to move beyond the type of courses that are all par 3s. I'm from Wisconsin and in my opinion there are not enough courses here with holes long enough to be considered par 4s or par 5s. Even if there comes a day when every course has 1 or 2 holes that play over 500' or 600' there will always be the players that say, "Every hole is a par 3 dude even though nobody has ever gotten better than a 4 on this hole."

Put the 4s and 5s on the signs. In a tournament, they need to be designated as such anyway, to ensure those missing the hole are properly penalized. "Every hole is par 3" is a fine shorthand for scorekeeping during casual rounds. But true par-4s and par-5s are great for disc golf, and should be labeled as such.

Where you don't have multiple tee-pads for different skill levels, I've seen signs indicating various pars for the different levels.

It's simply that we don't typically have pro shops at courses where scorecards are handed out with pencils like ball golf for every round. Those of us who believe in par 4s & 5s will use "par 3 shorthand" to keep score in our heads for casual rounds and especially doubles. I've recommended for beginners, especially women, on the tougher courses to just use par 4 as their reference for each hole and that works well. Heck, that could work well at Winthrop or Renny Gold for all of us.

As the plastic becomes faster our courses are becoming longer. I love the new courses and designs that are out of the box; many designers here in Iowa are creating some wicked courses. Lots of these courses have par 4 and 5 holes. I like the idea, but make sure you evaluate the holes carefully to validate the increased par. When a course is properly evaluated you can closely gauge how well you shot on a particular course (over/under) and the difficulty of a hole while on the tee.

Talk of all par 3 because of scoring is silly. When you play in any serious event or league par does not matter, only your total score.

I hate ball golf comparisons, but how many ball golfers talk about over/under par. They all talk totals and handicaps, something our league uses, not par comparison.

So I�m suggesting mark the tee signs and course map with whatever par your local club/course designer/local pro come up with. These are great for gauging the course, but use totals for serious competition, ignoring pars.

The mistake we see inexperienced designers make when given the oppotunity to lengthen a course is lengthening legit par 3 holes when they shouldn't be. Either more existing par 3s should be turned into par 4/5s or existing par 4 or 5s lengthened. Even though discs are thrown somewhat farther on average for a particular skill level, they are not throwing any more accurately. So, if an existing par 3 hole has a good scoring spread, you can screw it up by making it longer, thinking that's what you need to do now that discs can be thrown farther. The only par 3s that should be lengthened are ones that have too low of a scoring average that might really be par 2s. Always make those more challenging when you can, and adding length to those is the easiest, if you don't have any other options like adding hazards or planting trees.

I agree with you Chuck.

I have information regarding hole distributions from the last two year's Montrose Opens and I've used them to evaluate the existing holes. However, my club has to redesign the course due to changes in the park. I'm planning on making sure we play quite a few rounds before making signs to see if theye really play at par 3-4-5 whatever. Right now we have some par 3s that play as par 2 and I think we;re going to experimenting with hazards as talked about on some other threads. I love the idea of "bunkers" around the green (or fairways) that don't cost a stroke but you have to make a more challenging putt from a drop zone.

-MADMAX

Good luck. Sounds like you're on the right track.