alexkeil
Jan 24 2007, 01:32 PM
I wondered this after coming across a post on the New Hanover Disc Golf (http://newhanoverdiscgolf.com) web site and reading a conversation regarding throwing technique between an american and a swedish player. Do you think pulling across the stomach generates more power than pulling across the chest? It seems like one would more use powerful muscles by pulling lower. If it does generate more power, what about accuracy?

Please weigh in if you have tried both ways, I'm very curious. After watching Dave Feldberg and Markus Kallstrom bomb huge drives while pulling low and using little effort, I have to wonder...

DSproAVIAR
Jan 24 2007, 02:09 PM
I'm not sure about power. I can't throw far anyway. But I think pulling from lower is more accurate, especially for real tight fairways.

veganray
Jan 24 2007, 02:14 PM
Me too. For me, it's more natural to keep the pull straight & the disc close to my torso with a low pull.

readysetstab
Jan 24 2007, 03:48 PM
I used to pull accross my chest, but tried pulling from lower and found a lot more distance. I've been throwing lower ever since and it's working out well. I think i was a little more accurate pulling accross my chest, but that's probably because I'm not completely used to coming from a lower position. it's only been a couple months. I'm sure that the height you pull from doesn't affect accuracy. It's just a matter of getting used to one way or the other.

gnduke
Jan 24 2007, 07:45 PM
I can easily generate more speed pulling from lower (verified by sports radar), but have a tendancy to start pulling everything up when I start to get tired.

bruce_brakel
Jan 24 2007, 09:29 PM
Sometimes good players who look like they are pulling across their stomach are actually pulling across their chest but their chest is tipped forward which tips their arm down and the disc is across their chest relative to the plane their chest is in, and across their waist relative to the vertical plane. They use that technique throwing a hyzer or throwing a disc that is a little understable for them that will flip up to flat. It is a powerful technique.

I used to pull flat across my waist or stomach. I got better distance throwing across my chest. My 12 year old daughter threw 242 feet at women's nationals for a new junior record there. She pulls across the chest.

Greatzky2
Jan 25 2007, 03:27 AM
in most technique reviews and discussions i've read and been in the answer seems to be that throwing from higher in the body around the chest area is better than throwing from the stomach.
Bruce is corrrect when stating that most pros do throw from around their chest, but they vary their body angle depending on shot. This makes them appear to throw from lower, but they are still keeping the disc parallel with their chest or close to it.

I personally find that throwing from higher makes for a better throw shot.

-Scott Lewis

alexkeil
Jan 25 2007, 10:58 AM
I realize most American pros pull across their chests. Look at videos at many of the top Euro players, however, and I think you'll see them pulling lower. If there's anything I've noticed that's different between Euro and American pros, it's that the top Euro pros seem to throw a lot farther, on average. I also think there's something to be said for the inertia of technique. Disc golf has been around a lot longer in the States, such that the modern technique has taken a lot from older techniques that used very different discs. The European technique has virtually grown up with modern, beveled edged discs. For this reason I am more likely to trust that a lower pull zone would yield better results. I'm really looking for people to weigh in on this that have spent time out in a field trying both and have picked one or the other to stick with. I, too, have casually tried it, but anyone who plays knows you have to stick with a style for a while before it pays dividends.

Watch videos of Markus Kallstrom and Dave Feldberg and tell me that they don't get more distance for less effort than most pros. After watching Kenny in 2003 USDGC video, it also appears that he is pulling across around the bottom of his rib cage rather than across his 12x world champion nipples.

DSproAVIAR
Jan 25 2007, 01:12 PM
Agreed. It looks like Kenny is pulling thru below his shoulders, even tho his shoulders are at an angle.
Here (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/kenclimo.shtml)

alexkeil
Jan 25 2007, 01:25 PM
something I noticed, too, as i sit in my office chair enjoying the luxuries of a state job... by doing a pull through closer to the bottom of the ribs rather than nipples, I'm actually able to keep my head oriented toward the basket better. By keeping my arm up high, it places more of a pull on the shoulder when reaching back, which subsequently pulls the neck around. By keeping my arm lower, it works more with the natural movement of my body and I'm able to look sideways with less strain. Just an observation... though I realize that, without thinking about it, on most of my short upshots I pull through lower than I do on my drives.

Greatzky2
Jan 26 2007, 05:59 AM
all of kenny's drives were hyzers(in those videos) although he normally throws right under his chest on most drives... and also the oldschool technique for throwing a lid is to throw from lower.. Throwing from higher up is a technique used for throwing modern discs. Maybe it's possible that all these pros could gain the same Distance from any sort of form, but prefer what is comfortable to them. Most players will also mimick their local pro in some way. It's possible that many Euro players learned from players that throw from lower.
I don't mean to disprove, but to merely add to discussion. I do like you comparison between American and Euro Players and would love to watch/see more Euro players throw. I might have to pick up a Hyzernauts DVD.

-Scott Lewis

alexkeil
Jan 26 2007, 10:51 AM
The most recent European open video is a great showcase of American and European talent. It also has some very MSDGCesque commentary with a Finnish twist.

All comments are appreciated. My intent with the post was not to prove that one method was better than the other, but to inquire about people's knowledge of the subject. After watching the USDGC 2003 video, it looks like all of Kenny's drives, even his big turnovers, start from relatively low in comparison to what I have learned to throw.

The following is a quote from Thomas Ekstrom (a swede) in a conversation with Boz. It is what started my thinking on this subject:

"Yes I recommend keeping the disc close to your BODY, not always the chest cause itīs to high in most cases. With a normal drive I pull the disc just under my ribs, and it works for me. The main part in the draw is to keep a straight line from the back and forward to the release. If you take a rubberband and pull it from the back of your swing to the end of it, you will notice where your strenght is. Like starting a lawnmover you have to pull close to your body, and do some transfer of weight."

Since he didn't explain why the chest was usually too high, that is why I posted this to begin with.

alexkeil
Jan 30 2007, 12:11 PM
So I've been using the technique for about a week. I'm finding little difference in results, though I seem to be more successful on tight holes, and more accurate with hyzers and anhyzers. One problem I have noticed is a significant increase in off axis torque on certain throws and can't figure out why. I suspect it's because I'm so used to reaching back high that I still do this occasionally without noticing, so I'm not always pulling straight through. Any other thoughts?

james_mccaine
Dec 27 2007, 01:34 PM
Did you ever learn more about this? I'm always stupidly tweaking my throws and started throwing from a lower plane. I describe it as throwing with my elbow closer to my body rather than raised up. Anyways, I feel as if I get more pull but I am flipping everything. Uncontrollably or at least way more than I have ever experienced.

I attribute this weird torque to a swing plane starting low and ending up at shoulder level, and helped along by my mental memory of a flat swing with an upright torso.

I'm wondering if people who start low don't actually have to have more of hyzer swing (torso not upright but forward) in order to avoid that torque.

eveidel
Dec 27 2007, 02:57 PM
HERES SOME EXAMPLES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkjCcU_GUK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOueOgp8opo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TLFUNHHaRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaXlaiW3g0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25iTrFWgrG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OikPphtzgec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6hzZx87kEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOHevoCS0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOHevoCS0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XURHuuysTaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokKXXXbPE4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFvkJCzed9k

These are great examples, and thats why I went to pro worlds 07...to watch and learn from the best.

eveidel
Dec 27 2007, 03:00 PM
There is a video of Marcus Kallstrom on here for your swedish boys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o_Pe9cPb0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFvkJCzed9k

And Another Swede, but I can't remember his name
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqUwJBR5oXU

my_hero
Dec 27 2007, 05:10 PM
I've always pulled across my stomach. Just feels more natural, and works well for me. Seems to generate better hip rotation, whereas when i pull from across the chest i feel more of a shoulder rotation.

circle_2
Dec 28 2007, 04:15 AM
W/O knowing the hole distances and whether they're really cranking for big D or not...they are all certainly very smooth and controlled.

readysetstab
Dec 28 2007, 11:03 AM
HERES SOME EXAMPLES

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkjCcU_GUK4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOueOgp8opo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TLFUNHHaRc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaXlaiW3g0s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25iTrFWgrG0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OikPphtzgec

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6hzZx87kEE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOHevoCS0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFOHevoCS0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XURHuuysTaI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokKXXXbPE4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFvkJCzed9k

These are great examples, and thats why I went to pro worlds 07...to watch and learn from the best.


pretty much all of those are hyzers or hyzer flipped. i think everyone pulls from lower accross the body when throwing hyzer. there are a couple anhyzers that don't really appear to be accross the chest. i think the reason that most people throw accross the stomach more often is just because they hyzer flip more shots. it's more accurate, in my opinion. when trying to throw a flat or anhyzer shot most people pull from higher up. it's only natural because your arm is up that high, so if you want the disc to follow the same plane as your arm and you're throwing level, you really have to come accross your chest.. or closer to it. it's all relative. depends on the shot you're throwing.

there will always be people built a little different who can get away with coming accross the stomach on every throw, but that's an exception.. one that you can't correct without changing your grip. people like Brinster can always throw lower because of the grip they use. he holds the disc a little bit under the plane of his arm, so i guess he's kind of "on top" of the disc. if he threw from his chest, he'd be throwing a roller. gripping like that doesn't work for most people.

eveidel
Dec 28 2007, 12:06 PM
dude, you weren't there first of all. and actually they were all straight long shots. some were uphill or downhill though, which definately affects it. Its all a matter of personal preference though. the videos were meant to show how they put it all together, and the differences between the style of the players

readysetstab
Dec 28 2007, 05:35 PM
right... hyzer flips (what i said). which are normally pretty straight when intended to be. not sure why you're offended.

by the way, i just gave you a bunch of knowledge. might want to take a look instead of taking offense just because i didn't agree with you.

dwmichaels
Dec 31 2007, 03:57 AM
I'm thinking that putthead is probably right. Most of those guys have a lot of power and probably use hyzerflips more than a flat shot just because they can control the hyzerlip better than depending on an understable disc or a new disc.

I'm sure marcus is throwing just about everything hyzer with his power. With his throw, he's bent over from the waist so much, the disc probably is level with his chest.

Those were some great videos. I'll bet it was a ton of fun watching those guys throw in person. The discs just take off like rockets. Lots of fun.

citysmasher
Dec 31 2007, 11:45 AM
I've always pulled across my stomach. Just feels more natural, and works well for me. Seems to generate better hip rotation, whereas when i pull from across the chest i feel more of a shoulder rotation.



I want to do whatever Hero is doing... :D

dionarlyn
Jan 04 2008, 03:41 PM
Interesting. I've seen players throw both ways, typically a low release indicates a hyzer shot v. a flat/anhyzer throw. I personally pull across my chest, and if I throw a hyzer I need to lean over, but I still would qualify that as a chest pull.

Thats me and Colin in the background of Avery's throw on the 1300' hole. We are putting out on 16's island green. Look ma, I'm on YouTube!