Birdie
Sep 14 2006, 12:12 PM
Before Am Worlds this year, Kevin McCoy told me that putting would make the difference.

So I started putting about an hour a day.

So now, post Worlds, I have started my putting practice again and my back is hurting.

I putt right handed, and I putt with my right foot ahead of me and my left foot behind me (what I consider normal).

And after I putt maybe 20 putts or so, my lower left back starts to hurt.

Has anyone had this problem? Does anyone know a solution? I am only 19 and I have never had back trouble before. I am a lifetime golfer, so if I am having this problem at 19 I need to do something now, so that I can still play when I'm 90.

Anyone got anything?

ck34
Sep 14 2006, 12:26 PM
Maybe straddle putting will work better for you. If your muscles are getting out of balance since you could still be growing, you may need to also do exercises (even putting) as if you were a left hander to keep muscles on both sides developing in balance.

friZZaks
Sep 14 2006, 12:27 PM
Is it pain or is it muscle fatigue? I find that after 45 mins. of putting i have to take a break because of fatigue.

anita
Sep 14 2006, 12:46 PM
Some back problems are due to a lack of good abs. You don't need a 6 pack to prevent back trouble. You have to keep things in balance. Toning up all the muscle groups is always a good idea.

I went through some ciatic(sp) nerve trouble about 10 years ago. I wouldn't wish that on a dog!

dave_marchant
Sep 14 2006, 12:52 PM
Could it be a result of all the bending over and standing back up picking up missed putts? For me there are usually plenty of missed putts, but even if you miss just one of the ten? putters you use to practice, each time you gather your thrown putters you lean over once. That is a lot harder on your lower back than situps and it is a motion that most of us do not do repeatedly in our daily routine of life.

Birdie
Sep 14 2006, 01:06 PM
Is it pain or is it muscle fatigue? I find that after 45 mins. of putting i have to take a break because of fatigue.



I would describe it as a pain.

I have never thought about my body still developing. Maybe I should do some left handed putting...

And yeah I miss putts, put I make more than I miss.

I don't have very developed abs. Maybe since I have been taking my game to higher levels, I need to take my body there too. Maybe there are some physical limitations I have reached or exceeded, without knowing it.

So maybe abs and legs and overall cardio?

hmmm....

Sharky
Sep 14 2006, 01:08 PM
I had a lower back problem in May of this year (come to think of it I believe I was sore in the lower left side) I layed off of golf for 2 weeks (not easy as you know) then played a round and it felt OK, then I did a few minor chores then all of a sudden it came back just as bad as before. I went to the doctor he gave me some pain pills that were not the answer but also gave me a referral to a place called Sport and Spine Rehab. They set me up (with only a $20 co pay with my insurance) with three sessions a week for three weeks and two sessions a week for another 3 weeks. That place worked wonders and I am now a devotee of stretching and other core exersizes to strengthen the muscles that affect the back. They really did not much care how I injured my back basically if your core muscles are weak then it is easy to get a sore back. Anyway, I would go in and get put on a rolling traction table for 10 minutes, do the exersizes they presribed, at first just a few easy ones then gradually they introduced ones that I could now "handle" considering my improving back. Then the doctor of Chripractor would do a few tweaks. After 2 weeks my back pain was gone. 3 weeks in they said I could go play disc golf. Since July I have been full bore playing all the golf I want which is a lot. I now go back to Sport and Spine monthly for a $50 "tune up". My back is better than it has been for years. Occasionally it will be a little tight or sore in the early morning but the stretching exersizes take care of that quite nicely. I'm 54 but I think this advice/approach is good for anyone at any age. In the past I heard a lot of folks talk about stretching now I'm on board too.

md21954
Sep 14 2006, 01:12 PM
My back is better than it has been for years.



great! maybe your game will catch up soon as well! ;)

stretching is critical.

Birdie
Sep 14 2006, 01:32 PM
Yeah, as I have said.

I have the pain only when putting...and only when I am out back of my house putting, I never get pain during the rounds.

And the pain goes away after I quit putting. I have zero back pain other than this...chores, picking things up, sweeping or vacuuming....all no problem at all.

oceanjones
Sep 14 2006, 01:44 PM
I hurt my back about a year and a half ago...couldn't walk for almost two days. I took a little time off for starters. To me it sounds like you just need to exercise and stretch...gently. Could be that you strained that left side somehow and it just gets "targeted" by your putting. For me stretching is key to keeping my body working. I stretch before, and especially after playing/practicing. Situps, and hamstring/lower back stretches are what got me back in the game. Now I just need to fix my shoulder.

md21954
Sep 14 2006, 01:59 PM
when i do these stretches (among others), i'm a lot less sore (if at all sore) after a couple of rounds, and certainly feel more limber during it...

http://www.physicallytrained.com/fm21-20/physical-fitness-training/images/FLEX-hip-and-back-stretch-seated.PNG

http://home.earthlink.net/~fitness_habit/images/image008.gif

circle_2
Sep 14 2006, 02:46 PM
I overdid putting practice by having a box of 40 putters sitting on a chair right next to me so that I didn't have to move much to get another putter to throw. After rotating through the box at least 5-6x/day on a Saturday AND Sunday I had done myself in! For the next 3 days (Mon-Wed) I was sore as heck - especially in my right thigh and my low back was quite stiff, too. I felt like I had been hit by a truck! :eek:

Now I make sure I'm moving more and getting into and out of putting stance to better simulate tourney time.

.02 // YMMV

togie
Sep 15 2006, 10:52 AM
I had the same issue and changed to a staddle stance. I'm sure you dont want to change things right before a Tourney, but you may also want to look at your stance as it is now and see what your not doing. are you bending your knees? This will take some stress off your lower back . I'm not talking about a squat just a little knee bend.

Greg_R
Sep 15 2006, 05:37 PM
I had the same problem that you did... after ramping up my practice routine I'd screw up my back. It turned out to be what Chuck suggested... over strengthening one side. With putting you are jerking your lower back on every throw (this works the muscle a lot more than picking up laundry). Also keep in mind that you're throwing a lot of plastic (probably rapid-fire 10 at a time, doing 200 or so putts???). That's 400 times your back is flexed / exercised in < 30 minuts (not the norm). Work on exercising the other side of your body.

As for stretching, do the two shown above. Another good one (especially for muddy areas) is to find a post or medium tree. Grab the tree at belly-button height and put your feet against the base of the tree. Now squat down and lean back (fully extending your arms). You should feel the stretch in the very low back (knees closer to the tree works upper areas of the lower back).

Good luck!

rizbee
Sep 16 2006, 11:38 AM
Could it be a result of all the bending over and standing back up picking up missed putts?



Quite right - don't underestimate the effect of picking up missed putts. I have battled with sciatica for a few years. I showed my physical therapist what my throwing form looked like, and he didn't see too many problems with that (back pain problems that is - there are enough score-related problems that he couldn't address). But then he asked me how many times in a round I bent down to pick up my disc. He said that his experience from working with ball golfers was that one of their most dangerous actions was picking the ball up out of the hole.

Bending over at the waist creates a great deal of stress on your lower back vertebrae. Ball golfers do that 18 times a round, but disc golfers do it after every shot (except made putts). He recommended that I use my knees to get down to pick up my discs - either squat or do kind of a lunge to get down on one knee and then pick up the disc. It does help reduce the onset of lower back pain when playing.

Of course, the best treatment is prevention - increased core strength (still working on that) and low-impact stretching will help prevent (or lessen) the problem.

Good luck!

pterodactyl
Sep 17 2006, 12:44 PM
Bend at the knees, not at the waist. Make a golf cart and get one of those grabbers so you won't be apt to use improper body mechanics.
Just a few tidbits that will help in the long run.
As for exercising your core, get an exercise ball. They are awesome for ab strength.

sandalman
Sep 18 2006, 11:54 AM
change your diet unless you are already eating healthy. a LOT of pain has diet as its root cause. whatever you do, avoid anti-inflammatory over-the-counter medication as much as possible. they are tough on your internal organs.

jpeacock
Sep 18 2006, 01:18 PM
Stretching is the best.
When I putt I know I tense up worring about making it. The more relaxed I am the less stress on the back and the better I putt. Do basic back exercises and don't tense up.
Easier said then done though! :DJP

quickdisc
Sep 20 2006, 10:01 PM
They have this spray on stuff that feels alot like Icy/Hot and it releaves the pain in 10 minutes. I forget the name at the moment though.

circle_2
Sep 21 2006, 12:12 AM
If your car's oil light comes on - do you put a piece of duct tape over it? :confused:
Pain may/might be a sign of a (potential) serious injury if nothing is changed...

QD - I know you know, but this 'philosophy' bears repeating...

Birdie
Sep 21 2006, 01:45 PM
I have been practicing putting with a straddle stance...and it seems to be helping...still a little "pain" but nothing like it was.

Now my right knee hurts though. :(

twoputtok
Sep 21 2006, 02:57 PM
We'll get you some knee pads, Opie. :D

sandalman
Sep 21 2006, 07:55 PM
stretches can be some of the worst things to do - in warmup. they take the spring out. far better to start with a short, slow version of your throwing style and work up to full throws. for me, i start with about 8-10 pure hyzers at about 200'... then a half dozen up shots about 125. then as much putting as a i feel like. then a few half strnegth drives and finally a few full on drives.

you keep the snap in your muscles, and get your body using the motions you will need in the round.

29444
Sep 21 2006, 08:06 PM
stretches can be some of the worst things to do - in warmup. they take the spring out.



Exactly! Warm up first, then gently stretch the muscles.
Its easy to damage "cold" muscles while stretching them.
Basic physiology.

travisgreenway
Sep 21 2006, 10:29 PM
You two are wrong...sorry guys I'm a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and there is no litature that supports what you two are claiming...the real key is not to Bounce while stretching cold muscles..You SHOULD stretch the glutes(butt)the hamstrings, the lats, and the low back. Basicaly stretch all the muscles that connect to the low back(since that is what is bothering you. It also would not hurt to stretch the shoulder, triceps, and the chest. Just some advise from a professional(strength coach not a disc golfer :D) Mabye some day my game will catch up with my knowledge of strength and conditioning. :cool:

Birdie
Sep 22 2006, 09:43 AM
Wow, thanks Travis.

Without you I would have been doing great harm to my body.

A word to those of you who were acting like you knew what you were talking about........you could get someone hurt with all these backyard treatments.

sandalman
Sep 22 2006, 10:29 AM
i didnt recommend a treatment, i suggested thatstretching is likely to hurt more than it would help.

i could point you to lots of Physicians and Therapists who support the "dont stretch in warmups" approach, and have empirical data to back it up.

29444
Sep 22 2006, 11:28 AM
You two are wrong...sorry guys I'm a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and there is no litature that supports what you two are claiming...the real key is not to Bounce while stretching cold muscles..You SHOULD stretch the glutes(butt)the hamstrings, the lats, and the low back. Basicaly stretch all the muscles that connect to the low back(since that is what is bothering you. It also would not hurt to stretch the shoulder, triceps, and the chest. Just some advise from a professional(strength coach



Let me clarify. You are recommending the stretching of "cold" muscles?

The advice I gave above was from someone in a similar position as yourself. It seems that this is another example of professionals using more than one set of evidence. There is evidence to suggest that muscle stretching is best done in "warm" muscles. Real bona-fide peer-reviewed research-based literature. I do agree about not "bouncing" as well, very important part of proper stretching.

Thanks for bringing another perspective in, I guess I will have to revisit the literature to find references to back up your assertion.

Not being argumentative, just trying to figure out why I've been given contradictory advice.

RHO,
I would not "make up" such a claim.
You will not hurt yourself employing proper stretching technique on warm muscles. A professional trainer (just like yer buddy, there) gave me that advice, and it has worked for me.
Its a shame that you assume so much about the relative education level of your peers.

Stretching after playing or a putting session may also help reduce soreness/stiffness.

I hope you find what works for you.

BTW, a quick google search for "proper muscle stretching" yielded several legitimate websites written for the lay public that support the notion that muscles should be warmed up first, then stretched.

Regards.

Greg_R
Sep 22 2006, 05:26 PM
When I screwed up my back, my therapist had the following suggestions:

- Do some very mild stretching before throwing
- Warm up. Warm up means no more than 50% throw AT MOST. I play catch with a putter and work up to some 150ft approach shots. I'll also do a few knee bends to warm up the legs.
- Now do some full stretching of all the muscle groups.
- Work both sides of the body equally. If I go out and throw 100 drives (right handed) then I'll pull a bungee cord 100 times with my left.

AviarX
Sep 22 2006, 07:23 PM
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The World's Greatest Distance Enhancement Device

Improve Your Distance, Strength, Control, Flexibility and Muscular Endurance!
[Excellent for Warming Up Before a Round of Disc Golf
Develops Arm Speed Needed for Maximum Distance
Comes Complete with Workout Chart.

endorsed by 12x World Champion Ken Climo

visit: here (http://www.discntucky.com/index.html)

or contact Fred at: [email protected] for more details

Birdie
Sep 22 2006, 07:53 PM
RHO,
I would not "make up" such a claim.
You will not hurt yourself employing proper stretching technique on warm muscles. A professional trainer (just like yer buddy, there) gave me that advice, and it has worked for me.
Its a shame that you assume so much about the relative education level of your peers.



What my esteemed constituent here is trying to say is that no, in fact, he does not know anything more than what a quick Google search will tell you, and that I shouldn't "assume so much" about his educational level because his friend told him to do it this way...and he really doesn’t want his feelings hurt... :( :o

Maybe I should frame all my future posts with... "Please do not reply until you have submitted your empirical evidence in writing no less than 30 days prior to posting. After your submission is received we will do a quick background check to make sure that my response doesn't offend you or anyone you have ever known."

That sound good to you Dr. Steve a.k.a Dr. I know everything and am compelled to tell everyone about it?

jugggg
Sep 22 2006, 08:30 PM
I have a guaranteed remedy. Two 1000mg vicodin

AviarX
Sep 22 2006, 10:37 PM
How did your post reply to me when it was <font color="blue"> 29444</font>'s quote you just replied to & quoted :confused:

Birdie
Sep 22 2006, 10:58 PM
You were just the last post....

29444
Sep 23 2006, 10:42 AM
I hope you find what works for you.

Regards.

AviarX
Sep 23 2006, 09:07 PM
I'm a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist and .... the real key is not to Bounce while stretching cold muscles.You SHOULD stretch the glutes(butt)the hamstrings, the lats, and the low back. Basicaly stretch all the muscles that connect to the low back(since that is what is bothering you. It also would not hurt to stretch the shoulder, triceps, and the chest. Just some advise from a professional(strength coach not a disc golfer :D) Mabye some day my game will catch up with my knowledge of strength and conditioning. :cool:



check out this webpage (http://www.discntucky.com/index.html) for:


"THE EQUALIZER"

The World's Greatest Distance Enhancement Device


Improve Your Distance, Strength, Control, Flexibility and Muscular Endurance!
Excellent for Warming Up Before a Round of Disc Golf
Develops Arm Speed Needed for Maximum Distance
Comes Complete with Workout Chart.

endorsed by 12x World Champion Ken Climo

3 Tensions are Available:

Green (Light Tension)

Red (Medium Tension)

Blue (Heavy Tension)



as a certified strength and conditioning expert, would you recommend the blue, red, or green tension? and also if you would explain why...

haroldduvall
Sep 24 2006, 12:46 PM
Dear Andrew -

Kevin is exactly right: Putting is the key to success in competitive disc golf. While you continue to look into the physiological aspects of your back pain from putting practice (stretching, exercise, nutrition, etc.), I would like to share from my experience.

Back when I was in college like you, I was a more competent disc golfer. I used to practice putting two, three, even four hours at a time. My back really hurt some times. I attributed the pain to two causes: the putting motion and the tension during putting practice.

Putting practice for me was tense and intense. Kinesthetically, the putting movement was unnatural. It required both a powerful pulse and precise control. Putting was much less rhythmic for me than throwing. At the same time, I putt much more pressure on myself during putting practice. I was much more demanding of myself on putting than driving because I could envision an extra stoke with each miss. The repetitive nature of my putting practice multiplied the effect of doing an unusual movement under pressure. The stress (tightness) would tend to build putt after putt. Eventually my back would tighten and then ache.

I would look at ways to decrease both the tension and the repetition fatigue. Consider incorporating other muscle action into your practice. Throw a few drives. Instead of “stack putting,” toss all your putters all around the target and putt each one separately. In addition to reducing tension and stress, these techniques can provide situational practice that is far better than the rote method.

One last thought: Be careful about jump putting. Jump putting for me can be particularly jarring for both my neck and back.

Take care,
Harold

travisgreenway
Sep 25 2006, 10:32 AM
First of all YES I would recomend the EQUALIZER...I came up with a similar tool for warm up and then while doing some research on disc golf warm up tools I came across the EQUALIZER and found that I had already been beat to the punch so to speak.

I couldn't make any suggestion on the strength of the band you should start out with...all I can recomend is that you start out light and work your way up in resistance. However, with that being said if a player is "stronger" they could start out with a higher resistance and not be in danger of injury. I would really like to see an interchangeable set of bands. Also I have come up with some attachments for the bands that are helpfull for a more complete body warm-up and workout.

Without feeling the bands for myself I really would not want to make recomendations for anyone. Are the bands Therabands
because that would help me to know the true resistance each color provides. :D

To answer your question YES I think it is a GOOD tool that could be GREAT with a few minor mods.

quickdisc
Sep 25 2006, 04:35 PM
"One last thought: Be careful about jump putting. Jump putting for me can be particularly jarring for both my neck and back." Seen this one guy jump putting and twisted his ankle on the landing.

quickdisc
Nov 07 2006, 08:17 PM
Two 1000mg Vicodin ?

jugggg
Nov 07 2006, 09:06 PM
Two 1000mg Vicodin ?



Yep, no pain fo shizzle

Birdie
Nov 08 2006, 12:38 AM
Actually I just swiched to a straddle putt...working out great...! :D

Alacrity
Nov 08 2006, 09:30 AM
He is just giving you the Master's solution to pain, though 3 - 500 mg will also work ;)


Two 1000mg Vicodin ?

sandalman
Nov 08 2006, 11:52 AM
you guys are a bunch of drug addix

MikeMC
Nov 08 2006, 01:49 PM
An issue I had was that from practicing, the muscles used to throw right-handed developed more than my left side which put things out of balance. I spoke to a doctor about and was told that I need to cross train to maintain balance. Also, you need to stretch both sides as well for the same reason. Initially, I assumed that I'd need to exercise one side to compensate but that wasn't the case. You do lifting and stretching equally on both sides. Not being balanced can affect your alignment which can cause back pain. After a couple months of exercising, my pain went away.

quickdisc
Nov 08 2006, 10:52 PM
Well ...................It maybe time to look for a Laura Croff type of personal trainer !!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I may be overworked , but a happy camper !!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Oh No , not another neck lock with her legs !!!!!! :eek: :D

Benefit1970
Nov 11 2006, 02:59 AM
It's so simple...

If you spend approx. 1/10th of the time stretching as you do actually playing, you are going to decrease your chances of becoming sore or pulling a muscle DRASTICALLY! (For those without a calculator or a brain, 6 minutes for an hours worth of playing). It may seem burdonsome at first, but you will notice spicier drives, more fluid approaches, and silky smooth putts.

If you don't believe me, try it once and see what you think
;) :p ;)

-Bg