I posted this in another thread, but thought it may be worthy of its own thread to see what others thought.

One thing that Shawn brings up in the original post that I think should be considered for events is from the PGA. They also did it at the Players Cup in Florida....and that is have each player keep someone else's score the entire round. One would like to think people in disc golf do not cheat, but the bottom line is they do and they do in ALL divisions. If someone keeps your score the entire round and then you keep your own, compare notes at the end and there should be no problems. How many stories have you heard where someone calls out 4 and writes 3 down. This especially comes to mind in B or C tiers where T.D.s often mix divisions the first round. Many times the pros will be playing with newbies that have no clue how good a pro player is shooting and the last thing they will do is question that pro at the end of the round. All they know is they got smoked by more than 10 strokes so that ending number is irrelevant.

It would only take each person getting their own scorecard and at the beginning of the round each person changes cards with another person. This would eliminate a lot of "pencil whipping" out there and be relatively easy to do! Some people like to keep the cards the entire round, some don't call out scores...etc...just my 2 cents.

i think it would be a good idea, perhaps it could be mandated in some "trial" fashion at the higher levels of competition to begin with. eventually we will wind up following the ball golf model where each player keeps his own and one other and turning in an incorrect one will be grounds for dq- this is years and a lot of sponsor dollars away though.

i think it would be a good idea, perhaps it could be mandated in some "trial" fashion at the higher levels of competition to begin with. eventually we will wind up following the ball golf model where each player keeps his own and one other and turning in an incorrect one will be grounds for dq- this is years and a lot of sponsor dollars away though.



why would sponsor dollars have anything to do with this..another 30 cents for a scorecard? It seems like this should've been the way its been done from the beginning.

sponsor dollars are what will increase the stakes to the point that individual scorecards become a necessity- more money= more incentive to cheat. it has nothing to do with cost of cards.

Back in the day (story started by any OMB as the memory starts to go), I could tell you what your score was anytime during the round, what you shot on every hole played and when the score cards were completed I could tell if a score was right or not. But over the years I have quit doing that. I am not sure if it is memory loss or the desire to quit obsessing about other peoples scores. I can still tell you what you shot on any hole at the end of the round, but I don't keep track of the scores during the round anymore.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to keep scores on a seperate card, but I am not sure if it is needed. Is cheating that prevalent?

I think John's mention of the sponsor dollars is only to illustrate that it will be a while before scoring is done in this manner, just like it will be a while before major sponsor dollars are part of the picture.

As disc golf gets more serious, the penalties for breaking the rules will be more serious. If there are major sponsorship dollars at stake, even knuckleheads will be more careful about turning in a correct scorecard.

ah ok, point taken on the sponsor dollars point, wasnt thinking about it that way.

It's not always cheating. Sometimes, it's simple, unintended mistakes. Sometimes, the inability to add.

Having at least two cards per group (with every player's name) has been a no-brainer (IMO) for a number of years, whether we are playing for peanuts or thousands.

I only get to play a few tournaments a year and I would estimate that I see "suspicious scoring" on at least one card per tourney. :mad:And it's not always about prize winnings. Some people would cheat if you were playing for match sticks.

I played in two tourneys where (the same player) a player declared after the round that he KNOWS he got one more birdie than the card shows. :confused: (He doesn't know his TOTAL score but he has been keeping track of his birdies, uh huh) He always picked an easy hole that everyone could have birdied and then declared that one was written down wrong by someone else at the time. It basically came down to "are you calling me a liar?" an ugly confrontation every time. I don't even want to guess what he does with the card when it's in his possession.

Who needs that crap? So I keep a separate card for my group and I let everyone know. Then guys look at me like I don't trust them so I'm the bad guy. But guess what? no mystery birdies

I vote TWO cards.

I don't have a problem with keeping two cards and think it is a good idea if you believe someone is cheating. It is also possible that the person scoring wrote the wrong score down by accident. You fold that card in half and it is possible you worte the score down for the wrong person on the back nine.

On the flip side...someone may call an honest person a cheater (maybe they are a sore loser)..this would protect that person as well.

Wow ....................what ever happened to the honor system.

Almost sounds like , each group needs a third party , non-biased score keeper !!!! Not related to anyone in the group , including friends , cousins , relatives , bosses or politicians !!!!

Wow ....................what ever happened to the honor system.

Almost sounds like , each group needs a third party , non-biased score keeper !!!! Not related to anyone in the group , including friends , cousins , relatives , bosses or politicians !!!!



:cool:Memories of the Doubles event that used to be at UC Irvine every year....with Sorority Girls at every hole to Give hole info and keep score for your group. :cool:

I believe it was a Charity event for a Battered Womens Shelter.....Great event...even better score keepers...The warmer it was the nicer the event ;)
:D

Wow ....................what ever happened to the honor system.

Almost sounds like , each group needs a third party , non-biased score keeper !!!! Not related to anyone in the group , including friends , cousins , relatives , bosses or politicians !!!!



:cool:Memories of the Doubles event that used to be at UC Irvine every year....with Sorority s at every hole to Give hole info and keep score for your group. :cool:

I believe it was a Charity event for a Battered Womens Shelter.....Great event...even better score keepers...The warmer it was the nicer the event ;)
:D



Alpha Chi Omega or something like that !!!! :D

Good times !!!!! Cool course with lots of OB !!!!

Hottie scorekeepers! Who doesn't like that!!!!!!!!

I am going to ask the same thing I asked earlier.....is it that big a problem? The answer, in my mind, is that while cheating on scores does occur, it is not rampant. However, I would suggest that everyone keep a running score in your own way, be it memorized, on a card, carcoal on a disc, etc. and verify the scores as you see it. I can also tell you that I believe it is dependent upon the division. I am not slighting these divisions, but I believe most cheating happens at the recreational, intermediate and junior levels. I know it also happens at the advanced and open divisions, but I believe it is rare. Just my personnal belief, but advanced and open players tend to keep track of where they stand better and generally know right off the bat if someone is cheating in their group. That individual's name is then spread far and wide and watched at other tournaments.

Cheating is not just keeping the score correctly. It is also quite a few other things as well, including, but not limited to, illegal stances (probably the biggest), use of prohibited drugs (pot and alcohol), intentional courtesy violations, etc. Regardless of how you feel about the legalization of pot, smoking during a tournament is cheating. Regardless of how deep the shule you are in, putting your contact point to the side of your disc, instead of inline with the basket is cheating. As well as placing your mini in a more favorable lie.

Wow ....................what ever happened to the honor system.

Almost sounds like , each group needs a third party , non-biased score keeper !!!! Not related to anyone in the group , including friends , cousins , relatives , bosses or politicians !!!!

Well ....................I just may have to quote you here................This is pretty much the deal in a nut shell...........
"Cheating is not just keeping the score correctly. It is also quite a few other things as well, including, but not limited to, illegal stances (probably the biggest), use of prohibited drugs (pot and alcohol), intentional courtesy violations, etc.

Regardless of how you feel about the legalization of pot, smoking during a tournament is cheating.
Regardless of how deep the shule you are in, putting your contact point to the side of your disc, instead of inline with the basket is cheating. As well as placing your mini in a more favorable lie."

Seen all of these during tournament play. :eek:

For those who are caught , that's something that can't be erased from Lifes scorecard !!!!! It will always be attached to you at future events !!!! People know.

If you were found to be cheating knowingly or unknowingly there is a penality. What is the feeling on adding up scores wrong.? I feel bad if scores were added wrong by people that sucked at math and the penalized because they missed a stroke. I have been in tournaments where people had to write down names if they were to spell a name wrong because they suck at spelling should they be stroked for it? If a TD added a score wrong should he give the strokes to the player for adding the scorers worong? I believe your score is what you shoot and if you add wrong that should not be held against you.

People know, and should make others aware of cheaters. Then we should hang them by their balls from the tallest tree with a sign hanging from their neck that says "I am a cheater". Hopefully this will discourage others from cheating. Have a nice day :D

Count scores twice. Ask someone to verify math.

If a person truly has such limited math skills they could ask the TD to verify their score for them after someone from the group has done a preliminary count.

I know if I were impaired, I would have a fairly tough time counting my score correctly, but I could probably muddle thru it and hope for the best :) If I foul it up, though, that means the TD has to go over it two or three times. In order to encourage people to turn in accurate cards, there is a penalty for failing to do that.


What is the feeling on adding up scores wrong.? I feel bad if scores were added wrong by people that sucked at math and the penalized because they missed a stroke. [..] If a TD added a score wrong should he give the strokes to the player for adding the scorers worong? I believe your score is what you shoot and if you add wrong that should not be held against you.



A person should definitely be responsible for any inaccurate representation of their score. Count the score twice and ask others on the card to verify it.

Good topic, I think 2 cards may be a good idea but I think that people not marking their lie on the correct line (between the disc and the basket), and foot faulting (esp on putts, run-ups and w/ a difficult lie, ie. behind a big tree, in thick schule) are more common (huge problem w/ am divisions) than pencil whipping and have a similar effect. I have called myself on falling putts and foot faults in situaltions where I made the putt/good shot and my group was not going to call me, I would like to think other people would do the same but not likely.

Good topic, I think 2 cards may be a good idea but I think that people not marking their lie on the correct line (between the disc and the basket), and foot faulting (esp on putts, run-ups and w/ a difficult lie, ie. behind a big tree, in thick schule) are more common (huge problem w/ am divisions) than pencil whipping and have a similar effect. I have called myself on falling putts and foot faults in situaltions where I made the putt/good shot and my group was not going to call me, I would like to think other people would do the same but not likely.



Someone once posed this question to me, what happens if you call a penalty on yourself and no one seconds it? Do you give them a courtesy warning?

While I agree that falling putts and foot faults in the schule are problematic, the open fairway run-up foot fault is not an issue. Somewhere in the bowels of this DB there is a post from the RC that essentially says open-field run-ups deserve some leeway, it makes the game more exciting and in their opinion it doesn't effect throws significantly. On the other hand, it is probably the most ignored rule on the books.

Good topic, I think 2 cards may be a good idea but I think that people not marking their lie on the correct line (between the disc and the basket), and foot faulting (esp on putts, run-ups and w/ a difficult lie, ie. behind a big tree, in thick schule) are more common (huge problem w/ am divisions) than pencil whipping and have a similar effect. I have called myself on falling putts and foot faults in situaltions where I made the putt/good shot and my group was not going to call me, I would like to think other people would do the same but not likely.



Someone once posed this question to me, what happens if you call a penalty on yourself and no one seconds it? Do you give them a courtesy warning?

While I agree that falling putts and foot faults in the schule are problematic, the open fairway run-up foot fault is not an issue. Somewhere in the bowels of this DB there is a post from the RC that essentially says open-field run-ups deserve some leeway, it makes the game more exciting and in their opinion it doesn't effect throws significantly. On the other hand, it is probably the most ignored rule on the books.



I don't think I have ever seen that one, and would argue that the concentration and practice required to release from the mark while executing a full power drive, does indeed effect the distance and accuracy of the throw.

I usually keep a seperate card with everyones score on it. That way I can check there scores with what I have written down. If something doesn't jive, I will make the person go through shot by shot on the hole in question. For some reason I can remember every shot in a round from every player, sometimes even months after the event. I have caught a few cheaters over the years. Just make them count the strokes of the hole in question and you will get them squirming. funny how they always forget that 1 bad shot.

But as for the card thing......Im not sure what needs to be done. Keeping someone elses score is a good idea, but what if the person keeping your score does not like you and starts giving you 4's instead of 3's???

In many golf tournaments you keep your own score plus one other's.

But as for the card thing......Im not sure what needs to be done. Keeping someone elses score is a good idea, but what if the person keeping your score does not like you and starts giving you 4's instead of 3's???



The way they did it at the Players cup was you kept someone elses and you also kept your own uder that in case there was a discrepancy...you could fight it out. This didn't really happen, but it did keep people from writing down whatever they wanted! You know anyone who does that Chris? :D

A person should definitely be responsible for any inaccurate representation of their score. Count the score twice and ask others on the card to verify it.



My recommendation is to add the scores up using two different methods in two different directions (1->18, 18->1). Some methods for adding the scores:
<ul type="square"> Go across add all the bogeys, and then go back across and subtact the birdies.
Go across and add/subtract the bogeys/birides in one pass.
Go across and add the actual score. (Wow! what a concept).[/list]

The advantage to working it with different methods is that it is really easy to make the same mistake twice if you are adding up the score the same way.

PS For keeping your own score, Timex makes an Ironman watch (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00093DSCK/sr=1-1/qid=1150997559/ref=sr_1_1/104-2473157-8106324?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=jewelry&v=glance) with a builtin golf score keeper.

While I agree that falling putts and foot faults in the schule are problematic, the open fairway run-up foot fault is not an issue. Somewhere in the bowels of this DB there is a post from the RC that essentially says open-field run-ups deserve some leeway, it makes the game more exciting and in their opinion it doesn't effect throws significantly. On the other hand, it is probably the most ignored rule on the books.



What, thats crazy. Giving extra room on a run-up makes the game exciting? Why bother marking the lie then, just pick your disc up and throw from about where you think you should be throwing from. Would it be more exciting if they allowed falling putts?

If you get leeway fom a fairway run-up then I guess its pointless to be able to throw far and accurately while standing still, you could just take a run up and throw from a better spot and most likey get more power.

It takes a lot of practce to be able to run up and throw from behind a mini (legally), I guess your saying thats a waste of time cause you dont need to be behind your mini if you are in the fairway, you just need to be close to it.

If you play with me and you are taking run-ups in the fairway and you are not throwing from behind your mini you will be throwing another shot, until the rule book says you can throw from somewhere other than behind your marked disc I am going to play by the rules. You can go ahead and cheat if thats how you like to play but the rules are clear and "leeway" was never in the book, sorry.

Giving extra room on a run-up makes the game exciting? Why bother marking the lie then, just pick your disc up and throw from about where you think you should be throwing from. Would it be more exciting if they allowed falling putts?


I think this is misrepresenting what was said. The basic theme is that fairway foot faults (we're talking minor ones, not blatant disregarding of the rule's intent) are relatively insignificant on the grand scheme of things. I personally agree, and as evidenced by how infrequently they are looked for or called (by pros, at least), I suspect many others agree also.

I agree with Kuper on this one. I spent a month just practicing hitting the ~11" behind the mini marker. what about Nock at worlds last year, not a lot of run ups there. if you cannot legally hit your mark then stand still

The basic theme is that fairway foot faults (we're talking minor ones, not blatant disregarding of the rule's intent) are relatively insignificant on the grand scheme of things. I personally agree, and as evidenced by how infrequently they are looked for or called (by pros, at least), I suspect many others agree also.


As insignificant as they may be, read the rules, no where does it state there is leeway given on fairway run-ups. Moving your 25 foot putt 1 foot closer is not going to make a signicant difference either, so is that OK if someone accidently stands in front of their mini when putting? (obviously not likely to happen but when people are trying to reach around trees, etc. they do tend to step beyond their marked lie sometimes, not intentionally, I hope). Sometimes this game is a matter of inches between a birdie and a bogey.

I'm just saying, as immaterial as you may think the call is, rules are rules and bending them is not OK, if the PDGA wishes to allow for this "leeway" they will change the rules just as they did for the 2 meter ruling. Lets not lead people (newbies especially) to believe that its OK to throw from somewhere other than directly behind their lie, up to 11 inches (or whatever it is).

It takes a lot of concentration and practice to get down your legal fairway run-up and is crutial to the mental aspect of the game. Knowing that you may be called for a foot fault because your run-up may not have you throwing from behind your disc (cause you dont practice it) may make you throw a stand still shot to ensure you throw from the correct lie, which in turn may cost you a stroke cause you needed that run up to get the D you need. That is significat IMO.

It takes a lot of concentration and practice to get down your legal fairway run-up and is crutial to the mental aspect of the game.


ding ding ding we have a winner

Here's a question for some of you: if it doesn't matter, why not just throw from the proper spot, on the LOP and within 30cm? It makes no difference, right? So just follow the rule.

I'm not going to argue this topic again. You, Rhett, Lyle and others feel strongly that this as a big deal. Personally, I don't care if someone misses their mark, unless they gain a significantly better line by doing so. If I guy steps on his mini or misses it to the side and pins a wide open 400 foot upshot, I'm gonna congratulate him and move on.

Just like with jump putts, I suspect many people are not interested in disc golf tourneys being bogged down with questions about the timing of release and/or the exact location of supporting points at that exact moment.

As to your suggestion for a rule change, I suspect most people would agree to a rule change, if there was a significantly better option on the table. By the way, most people would never view putting one foot ahead of your mini as analogous to a fairway foor fault.

In defense of the run up violation and the statement about the RC stating it is not that important. As I seem to remember, the RC did NOT state that run-up violations should be ignored, they said that if you were unsure of an inch or so the benefit should go to the player. If it is feet or beyond the disc then it should be called. I have been looking for the statement and cannot find it. If however, you are quite sure of the violation then it should be called. I think the intent was not to get a ruler out and argue about that 1".


I agree with Kuper on this one. I spent a month just practicing hitting the ~11" behind the mini marker. what about Nock at worlds last year, not a lot of run ups there. if you cannot legally hit your mark then stand still

I'm not going to argue this topic again. You, Rhett, Lyle and others feel strongly that this as a big deal. Personally, I don't care if someone misses their mark, unless they gain a significantly better line by doing so. If I guy steps on his mini or misses it to the side and pins a wide open 400 foot upshot, I'm gonna congratulate him and move on.

Just like with jump putts, I suspect many people are not interested in disc golf tourneys being bogged down with questions about the timing of release and/or the exact location of supporting points at that exact moment.

As to your suggestion for a rule change, I suspect most people would agree to a rule change, if there was a significantly better option on the table. By the way, most people would never view putting one foot ahead of your mini as analogous to a fairway foor fault.



Read the rules please, if you don't care to follow them then don't play in PDGA events. I agree, a call to close to make goes to the thrower but thats not what we were discussing. It's great to know that some people disreguard the rules, have some integrity man, you are setting a bad example by saying you dont care if people foot fault.
Its all about the mental game and if you have to think about where your feet are going to end up it makes the shot that much harder to execute, obviously you could care less and you probably don't even know the rules. So get a rule book, read it, and tell me what it says about marking and throwing from your lie.. End of story, rules are rules, if you don't like 'em don't play or do something about it.

Will,

If you knew James, I don't think you would be saying what you did. He is very conscientious in following the rules, but since we are questioning integrity riddle me this: do you watch every throw made to assure the rules are followed, where discs go out of bounds, etc? This is a rule that very few people follow. I make every effort to watch every drive, approach and putt, but most players do not and that is a courtesy violation.

I am not doubting your integrity, but unless you know James and have played with him I would suggest you not question his either.




Read the rules please, if you don't care to follow them then don't play in PDGA events. I agree, a call to close to make goes to the thrower but thats not what we were discussing. It's great to know that some people disreguard the rules, have some integrity man, you are setting a bad example by saying you dont care if people foot fault.
Its all about the mental game and if you have to think about where your feet are going to end up it makes the shot that much harder to execute, obviously you could care less and you probably don't even know the rules. So get a rule book, read it, and tell me what it says about marking and throwing from your lie.. End of story, rules are rules, if you don't like 'em don't play or do something about it.

My thoughts have always been along the lines of advantage gained as well. I just consider more than a better line to be an advantage. If it is obvious that the player is making an effort to hit the mark and misses by a small margin, I would not make the call.

If it is obvious that a player is not even attempting to hit the mark, he is gaining the advantage of not having to split his concentration between hitting the mark and making the shot. In this case and the case of missing the mark in order to gain a better line, I will make the call.

Will, you are awfully big on following rules to a tee. It is a sign of integrity after all. When playing in a tourney, do you make sure everyone's name is called out in tallying the score, and also make sure that the scorekeeper reads the score back? If someone doesn't read the score back, I'm sure that your honor saves the day, cause rules are rules, and Will, the man of integrity is on the scene.

By the way, integrity works in many ways. I question if worrying about inches on a long shot is really about integrity. Maybe it is more honorable to not worry about those inches and beat your competitors with skills, not calls.

By the way, integrity works in many ways. I question if worrying about inches on a long shot is really about integrity. Maybe it is more honorable to not worry about those inches and beat your competitors with skills, not calls.


I play by the rules and attempt to land my foot on the LOP and within 30cm on fairway runup shots. This puts me at a competitive disadvantage during tournaments because I follow the rules.

It makes a difference. The main disagreement I have with others on this topic is not morality of the rules, but that I believe this issue makes a real difference in th eresult of the shot and others believe it makes no difference. 'Nuff said.

Maybe it is more honorable to not worry about those inches and beat your competitors with skills, not calls.



If your competitor is playing the same game and playing by the rules, you can not beat them with calls.

I only get to play a few tournaments a year and I would estimate that I see "suspicious scoring" on at least one card per tourney. :mad:And it's not always about prize winnings. Some people would cheat if you were playing for match sticks.

I played in two tourneys where (the same player) a player declared after the round that he KNOWS he got one more birdie than the card shows. :confused: (He doesn't know his TOTAL score but he has been keeping track of his birdies, uh huh) He always picked an easy hole that everyone could have birdied and then declared that one was written down wrong by someone else at the time. It basically came down to "are you calling me a liar?" an ugly confrontation every time. I don't even want to guess what he does with the card when it's in his possession.

Who needs that crap? So I keep a separate card for my group and I let everyone know. Then guys look at me like I don't trust them so I'm the bad guy. But guess what? no mystery birdies

I vote TWO cards.



I'm not exactly questioning your opinion that the specific situation in question was fishy, but I would like to mention that I have played rounds in which I actually KEPT the scorecard the whole round...diligently...and I kept track of how many birdies I had at any given time but would have had to offer an educated guess if asked to give my total score without counting it up. So keeping track of birdies but not total score isn't something I'd consider unlikely.

At the same time...for the exact same thing to have happened twice like that...I'd be skeptical too.


While I agree that falling putts and foot faults in the schule are problematic, the open fairway run-up foot fault is not an issue. Somewhere in the bowels of this DB there is a post from the RC that essentially says open-field run-ups deserve some leeway, it makes the game more exciting and in their opinion it doesn't effect throws significantly. On the other hand, it is probably the most ignored rule on the books.



I almost agree with you, because all of these are stance violations and therefore arguably the same rule...in my opinion the most ignored -specific- aspect of the stance rules is the least movement clause.

However, I suspect that across the board, the rule that the scorekeeper is supposed to repeat the scores for the whole group to hear is ignored more. I bet it's close, at least.

I wonder occasionally if casual relief might be the most often misinterpreted...I've known people who were playing pro not to be sure whether they were supposed to play from straight behind or from where the disc entered the casual relief area. Although...to be fair...in the case of which I am thinking, I may have misunderstood the question...he may have been confirming whether the area was actually casual relief, or out of bounds, or some other strangeness.