Hoping for some suggestions from women disc golfers who may run into this situation in a tournement. What would you want the TD to do?

I'm running a tournament in a few weeks and was asked by a woman what I would do as TD if she was the only Open woman player? I of course am hoping some more women show up but what have other TDs done when only one person in a division shows up?

Some options I see are:

1. Let her play with the same groups as the Am women but she competes only with herself and she wins her entry fee back.

2. Let her compete with the Open Masters Men (since she qualifies age-wise).

3. Tell her to stay home. *This would suck since the more women playing disc golf the better in my opinion and she's a great person to have at a tournement.*

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Max Maclay
Montrose Open TD
Montrose, CO

Peggy Barry was the only female pro at the Colorado Open, and she played Open Masters. I'm not sure if that was her decision or TJ's, but either way, she showed a bunch of those old guys how disc golf is played. I'd recommend you ask the player in question what she would prefer.

Thanks Marsha,

I already have but I also want to make sure she's happy with the outcome and that it's within the rules. To bad you won't be making it since you're going to Montana. Already have 3 int women signed up.

Peggy did play great at the Colorado Open and she definetly showed a bunch of those guys how to throw plastic!

-Max

Ultimately, I would leave it up to the particular golfer. Up until C. Peavy moved to Oklahoma, we only had one open woman golfer, and she would always play in her own division and take the $80-$100 payout. Knowing CP, however, if she were put in that position, she would opt to play with the big boys...that's just her style. I would ask the solo golfer what she prefers...definitely don't discourage her from participating...that's just silliness! :D

There are no rules concerning how few players are allowed in a division, only how many are needed to force a TD to offer a division. There is no rule that a division requires 3 players, only that 4 eligible players require a division if they want one.

The main thing is that the lone player and the TD are happy with the decision. Evaluate all of the options, Playing Am based on rating, playing in another pro division, or playing alone. If there is any added cash slated for the FPO division, that could be a winning proposition in itself.

I've been playing men's divisions simply because there is a LOT more competition. I know that other women, like Kelsey Brakel and Karen Jasolka, are doing the same. I think that as time goes on more and more women will be doing this. There aren't that many women competing right now, so I don't think the TD should force a woman into playing in a men's division. I have competed against myself and it was the most boring tournament. I will NEVER do that again!! I'd hope that a woman would chose to go where the competition is.

With that being said, here are a few things to think about:
1. What should a woman do if she's an 820-rated advanced woman, and she's the ONLY woman in her division, and she's playing a tournament that has int and adv playing separate days? Is it fair to have the woman competing against the adv men?

2. Is it fair to award a woman in ANY division (including pro) who is playing against herself a prize, including the value of the player's package, that is of greater value than her entry fee? I have been to a number of tourney's where there is one pro woman, and she ends up winning more money than what she paid.

I have been the only Pro Woman at tournaments on many occassions. Depending on the event, I would either play in my own division or donate to the Open Master Men (I'm old enough). I would play in my own division when the event was part of a series with points counting towards a year end title.

Now, in a non-series event I would most likely choose to play in Rec or Int men depending if my rating is over or under 875.

1. Why is she required to play on the Adv day ?
If she must play on the Adv day, she is limiting her options by her decision.

2. Yes, it is fair for a player to compete for more than they paid in regardless of the size of their division. All players are playing for more than they paid in (as a group) in most divisions, why should a single player in a division be treated differently ?

1. Why is she required to play on the Adv day ?
If she must play on the Adv day, she is limiting her options by her decision.

2. Yes, it is fair for a player to compete for more than they paid in regardless of the size of their division. All players are playing for more than they paid in (as a group) in most divisions, why should a single player in a division be treated differently ?



1. Let's say int women play on Saturday and Adv women play on Sunday. The Adv woman goes to the tournament on Sunday. When the tournament has started, no other advanced women have signed up. She can't turn back time and play on Saturday. With an 820 player rating, she most likely wouldn't fair too well against the adv men. What are her options? She could play pro women, but what if there aren't any pro women? I think a situation like this makes it extremely difficult to make any rules about there not being a one-woman division.

2. The problem I have with a one person competitor getting back more than they pay is that in many tournaments that money is coming from another division. I know that tournaments don't work this way, but I like the idea of keeping the money in a division. If there is one pro woman, where does the extra money come from? From the am divisions? I just don't think that's fair. Again, I do understand that it's common to take a percentage from the ams and give to the pros. Theoretically, a pro woman could travel around, play tournaments that have no competition, and be assured a profit at the end of the day. I'm sure lots of guys wish they had that option!

1. Why is she required to play on the Adv day ?
If she must play on the Adv day, she is limiting her options by her decision.

2. Yes, it is fair for a player to compete for more than they paid in regardless of the size of their division. All players are playing for more than they paid in (as a group) in most divisions, why should a single player in a division be treated differently ?



1. Let's say int women play on Saturday and Adv women play on Sunday. The Adv woman goes to the tournament on Sunday. When the tournament has started, no other advanced women have signed up. She can't turn back time and play on Saturday. With an 820 player rating, she most likely wouldn't fair too well against the adv men. What are her options? She could play pro women, but what if there aren't any pro women? I think a situation like this makes it extremely difficult to make any rules about there not being a one-woman division.

2. The problem I have with a one person competitor getting back more than they pay is that in many tournaments that money is coming from another division. I know that tournaments don't work this way, but I like the idea of keeping the money in a division. If there is one pro woman, where does the extra money come from? From the am divisions? I just don't think that's fair. Again, I do understand that it's common to take a percentage from the ams and give to the pros. Theoretically, a pro woman could travel around, play tournaments that have no competition, and be assured a profit at the end of the day. I'm sure lots of guys wish they had that option!

First, there is no rule against a 1 person division, and I don't see there ever being one.

Second, If you look closely at payouts for B-Tiers and above, all divisions normally get back more than they put in. It comes from sponsorship and from the hosting TD or club. A one person division should not be excluded from this additional money just because no one else wanted to play with them.

1. Trophy-only options do a lot to take care of that problem, don't they? [Yes, Rhett, I know that other TDs have trophy-only options.] If you show up Saturday for an IOS and there is not another woman playing, you get a fair return on a trophy-only entry fee in Men's Advanced, and you will be competitive with some of the rec and intermediate players who played in Advanced Men on Saturday.

And this is not just a woman thing. Am Masters used to have this problem when Am Masters was new. Grand Masters still have this problem. Juniors too.

2. I think what the tournament proprietor does with the profit on the event after he has met his tier requirements is more or less his business if it is more or less what you could have expected if you read his flyer or website. We've found that if you spend a lot of that money on the divisions where it came from, you have a lot more happy satisfied return customers than if you load it up on a few elite players or put it in your pocket. So what we are doing is just good business.

If another TD wants to give some of the profit on amateur entry fees to the sole pro woman or pro grandmaster, and prorating the added cash is what he does, I don't see anything unfair about that. Same thing with sponsor added cash, if that works for the sponsor. Anyone who cares about that certainly can pay attention to payouts and make educated consumer choices about where to spend their entry fee dollars.

When you go pro, take the money and say thank you. You don't know if that was profit on the amateur entry fees or profit on disc sales or $20 someone gave him to add to the pro women. It was his. He gave it to you. Buy Ben dinner on the way home.

One procedure that doesn't make sense in several markets is events that are split into some divisions on one day and the other typically have Advanced with Pros on the same day. I can sort of understand it if you want all divisions playing the same tees but even that isn't the case when Adv Women play other tees. Seems like there's more chance the Advanced players might try Pro, even trophy only, on the other day if those divisions were on opposite days.

I chose to start playing AM men because there was more competition. The women that I played with are very nice, and I do miss playing with them. Another factor is the cost. It is cheaper playing AM men.

Karen

First, there is no rule against a 1 person division, and I don't see there ever being one.

Second, If you look closely at payouts for B-Tiers and above, all divisions normally get back more than they put in. It comes from sponsorship and from the hosting TD or club. A one person division should not be excluded from this additional money just because no one else wanted to play with them.



I'm not sure you exactly understand what I am trying to say. I'm not saying that there should be a rule against one person divisions. There aren't enough women playing the sport, and it would definately discourage certain women from competing. Although I personally will not play in a one player division due to lack of competition, if other women want to, go for it. Afterall, disc golf is a fun sport. Not everybody gets high off of competition. For me, it's an adrenaline rush. And yeah, I think playing trophy only is a good alternative to a one-player division. Secondly, not all tournaments have sponsorship. I have played local tourneys where all the money came from entry fees. I'm not just talking A and B tier events. I agree, what the TD decides to do with the money is his business. I just prefer that it stays in the division. Yeah, if there is sponsorship, divide it up however you want. My $0.02. :D

My opinion: the TD should not allow any divisions of one, male or female. (If a tourney is part of a series or qualifies for a year-end title, someone should be able to keep stats for the lone female competitor and credit her points toward the overall.) The rules require a division if there are least 4 players and permit exceptions at the TD�s call, but 2 or 3 players should be the minimum.

When there aren�t enough women to make a division, opt to play in another one. Your choices:
1. First, you can always play �up� in the correlative men�s group (i.e. female pro plays open.)
2. Another (and perhaps better) option is to compete in the division that matches your skill level/player rating. The PDGA rules allow pro men and women with rating of 955 or lower to play in certain amateur divisions for which rating and age qualifies him or her.For example- if there aren�t enough women to form a separate pro division, my 875 rating would allow me to play men�s advanced, intermediate or even (sadly) recreational. Because I�ve been playing pro for almost ten years, it�s probably not fair for me to play the latter two divisions, and I find that I am most evenly matched with male advanced players. I opt for this division when playing pro women is not an option.

Another (sort of related) opinion: If we want to see the sport grow in terms of the number of women playing at the competitive level, we gals need to shoulder the burden of that responsibility. It is our job as lady golfers to get more women playing disc golf. Disc golf for women at the tournament level will never see the same numbers as our male counterparts unless we accept (not expect) equal treatment. While lower entry fees and added cash for the women are great and hugely appreciated, tournament directors are �darned if they do, darned if they don�t� when it comes to their treatment of women players. They order trophies for all divisions only to have no women players; catch grief for paying out more in cash/prizes to the women than their entry fees total, or even hear complaints by women when they don�t pay 100% of the field. Rules for divisions and payouts should be the same for everyone �.

Terry Frank
NC

The rules require a division if there are least 4 players and permit exceptions at the TD�s call, but 2 or 3 players should be the minimum.

That rule was abolished with the last rules rewrite.

Kelsey and I figured out what to do if the TD won't run a division for two women, but they want to play in a women's division. I had a lot of fun in my debut in the pro women's division playing under the pseudonym of Emily Dickenson. On the last hole I had a 20 throw lead, but since i had not shaved my beard, I did not think I would be able to collect the cash, so I DNF'd. I would have totally gotten away with it, but the lady who was representing the course owner at the tournament was genuinely concerned why the other girl DNF'd and was about to go out to the parking lot to make sure she was o.k. So I confessed and everyone thought it was both funny and chivalrous for me to donate an entry fee to the Pro Women so they could have a division. It was the most fun I've had at a tournament in a long time, making excuses for where Emily was, who Emily was, hiding from the TD when his group went by on a parallel hole, and just being Emily. Kelsey and Kim addressed me as Emily all day long, and I did too in the third person.

One of the big jokes in our group all day long was, "Don't tell anyone or we all might get banned from unsanctioned disc golf for life!"

That's a real feather in your cap, Bruce.

I hope your kid's as proud of you as you are of her.

A sterling example you are of doing what you have to do, to get what you want, regardless.

Upstanding behavior, indeed.

I don't believe in playing in one-person divisions, and I usually won't play in 2-person divisions either. Tournament disc golf is about competition.

The wonderful thing about the current competitive structure for pro women is that we have the option of choosing any of several divisions when there aren't any other pro women at the event - we can choose Advanced, Int, even Rec; if we're old enough we can choose Pro Masters, Adv Masters, etc., and if we're bold enough, we can play Pro Open. I personally usually choose Advanced since that's most compatible with my level of play - but whichever division I choose, I get to play with lots of different folks, and I usually learn something. I don't often beat a lot of folks, but I have the opportunity to do so!!

I've played in one person divisions more often than not. I say let her play in her own division if she wants to. If she is an open player (or master) make sure that she plays with players of similar skills. It's not much fun (or good for your game) if you have to play with lesser skilled players of either sex. Personally, I like playing with the pro masters. Sometimes I play pro master just because.

Vanessa is correct, women have many options as to where they can play. I've played advanced men, pro open, pro master and am master.

Make sure that she knows her options, but don't MAKE her play in a division where she is not comfortable.

Personally, I like playing with the pro masters. Sometimes I play pro master just because.

Anytime you happen to be in San Diego , I'd be more than happy to have you in my group. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I am going to chim in because this topic once came up at a disc golf organizers meeting here in Wisconsin. Finally, after 40 minutes of discussion amongst a group that had over 20 MALES present, someone spoke up and said, "We are 20 guys trying to figure out 'what women want' and apparently it's not working." Wisconsin tries hard to get more women disc golfers but I still think at the end of the day it's women that need to recruit other women to events. We do have Marie Schwinn and a few other female ambassadors here in Wisconsin but that doesn't make it just their responsibility either.

I also had to remark on this paragraph because as a TD I couldn't possibly agree more. Thanks!

<font color="red">"Another (sort of related) opinion: If we want to see the sport grow in terms of the number of women playing at the competitive level, we gals need to shoulder the burden of that responsibility. It is our job as lady golfers to get more women playing disc golf. Disc golf for women at the tournament level will never see the same numbers as our male counterparts unless we accept (not expect) equal treatment. While lower entry fees and added cash for the women are great and hugely appreciated, tournament directors are �darned if they do, darned if they don�t� when it comes to their treatment of women players. They order trophies for all divisions only to have no women players; catch grief for paying out more in cash/prizes to the women than their entry fees total, or even hear complaints by women when they don�t pay 100% of the field. Rules for divisions and payouts should be the same for everyone �." </font>

I want to point out that Terry Frank,(who is quoted above) along with Anita and other ladies, ARE doing something about bringing more women to the sport. They have started women's leagues in their area. While some ladies will never want to venture into more competitive golf, the more women you can get playing in a local league situation, the more women that will be available to play in tournaments.

More information is available here (http://www.innovadiscs.com/faq/women.html) on running a league for women, as well as other ideas to get more women involved in disc golf.

Starting a Women's League is the best way to get more women out there. I see TONS of women out at my local course. Most of them are there for fun. My sister, another friend, and I have been trying for the last few weeks to get ladies to play with us, no such luck yet. However I finally put up a flyer at my course last night to try and get them out to play. I'm really hoping it works. Even the local guys at our course said they would help out and make sure they remind the girls they see to come out on Monday nights to play with us. I think they are intimidated and think they are no good. But that's the point of the league, to teach and learn from others.

I forgot to mention, our Women's League is free to play too! That might be another bonus to get them out there. I have a ton of extra discs I will be giving away as some kind of prizes too. Some of the local guys even said they would donate some plastic too.

Could you post your league information here? Kelsey, Diana and Kiralyn make frequent trips to Lansing to volunteer at the zoo and to take wood carving lessons.

Sure! that would be great if they came to play! It will be Monday's at 6pm. The more the merrier! :) Oh yes, At Grand Woods Park.

Big props to Discette for the support she and Innova showed to my ladies league.

When you are starting from basically zero, you can't expect the tournament slots to be packed with women golfers the very next tournament.

I measure success by how many ladies show up for several weeks in a row. We had several ladies who really took learning disc golf seriously in this last session.

I think the next incarnation will be "Ladies Night". Just an evening to come out and play with the ladies. No scorekeeping, no stress, just meeting other ladies and throwing some discs. Life IS good. ;)