We had some ideas from some Local Pro Women for our next tournament. The main concern around here for Pro Women is that there is no competition. The suggestion was to random draw from AM2s (men) for an invite to compete in the Pro Women's division. So we would randomly draw AM2's to double the PW's division. Of course, if the AM2 didn't want to pay the extra entry cost, we would pick another AM2. Say we had 2 PWs. We would draw 2 AM2 names and have a 4 person PW division. They would compete normally, and if an AM2 did cash, he would receive that cash. On the other hand, if a PW did win, she would have double her normal prize. Our events are unsanctioned right now.

If you answer the poll, please give the reasoning behind your decision. THANKS!!

why not simply let the women play am2 and collect $ instead of merch?

why not simply let the women play am2 and collect $ instead of merch?


Ditto that comment. Have them play Am2 (if they are rated <915) and maybe put in an extra $10 or $20 for a ladies only side-purse.

Our AM2 entry is $23, PW is $35. The payout is deeper and less top-heavy in AM2. If a PW had won our last 10-person AM2 div, she would get about $50. If she won a 4 person PW division, she would get $70-100, and a nice donated trophy. The competition would be a much larger jump from not any-->too much if a PW joined the AM2 division, due to baggers. At least that is my opinion, I will ask our 2 PW and get you their answer.

Edit:
And thank you! Keep the opinions coming, please!

Even better, I think it's now legal for Pro Women to pay the reduced entry fee and play for trophy only in Am divisions. The amount they save versus the Women Pro entry fee could be contributed into a cash purse among the women. This way they get more competition, points and ratings, a possible Am trophy/plaque, side cash and don't take any prizes from the Am men.

I think letting the Pro Women play AM2 would be far better than having the guys play Open Women.

I don't see how either idea is going to further the growth of women in disc golf. There are some gals that enjoy playing with the guys and beating them. Guys are more driven by competition than women. We compete over just about everything in life. In talking to women for our local women's tournament, there are far more ladies that are almost frightened by competition. I think it is even more frightening to be on a card with only guys. A tournament I was recently at allowed families to play in the same group for both rounds. I don't know if I completely agree with the idea. But it brought alot of AM women out for the event, knowing that they would play both rounds with their husband/boyfriend.

The way we are going to grow the size of our open women fields is by catering to the AM women now and help them progress into open players. In my area, I have seen several good AM women lose interest and just quit playing altogether.

We have had pretty good success by cutting the Womens Entry fees in half. But we are just trying to get more women in general...not just looking at the PW division.

funny that you would use that term "PW" and at the same time trying to get AM2 men to play in the "PW" division...are they really "whipped"?

Hi!

I am a Pro Women who is part of the Kamloops Disc Golf Club. I am the only one among several gals that plays Pro. When I go to local tournaments, I play Advanced men and right now I am in the top 5 of about 13 men in a series that we are doing. The competition is great and the men are very open to having me there.

When I play sanctioned events, I play Pro Open as there are usually more women. I think that you are going to find it difficult to get the guys to play Pro Women as there is always that stigma attached to their egos...they have to play with the guys, not the girls. I'm not saying that all men are like this, but it may be easier to encourage the gals to move the other direction.

The upside to this is that the women who are sitting at an Intermediate level may move up to advanced or open women knowing that the big competition isn't there! You want to make sure that these women don't feel the pressure of Pro Women. This can be a problem too.They won't move up because they don't want to "donate" their money to the same winner over and over again!

This is a common problem all over the place. I know that catering to women during tournaments may not appeal to a lot of TD's, but making things more reasonable for them and offering great prizes will bring them to the course.

Possibly having the two Pro Women hosting a women's only clinic at a tournament would attract more females? Just a thought. It has worked here...2 years in a row with over 30 women in attendance each year has led to the number of women on the course doubling!

Just my thoughts...
Cheers!
Carrie Neal
PDGA #21336
www.kdgc.com/iwc (http://www.kdgc.com/iwc)

If I try to put myself in the shoes of an AM2 that has been approached by this option, it sounds good to me. I play against similar-skilled competitors at a higher enty fee, but instead of playing well and getting 2-5 discs, I would get some $$$! Like I said, it would be $70-100 for the winner in a 4 person mixed PW division.

I have played Advanced in several non-sanctioned events. Guys look at you funny when you tell them that you are in their divsion, but big whoop.

This is a much better solution (IMO) than selecting some guy to play pro women.

This has always been a solution, but people just don't take advantage of it.

I am not a Pro Woman, but if I had to choose, I would much rather have to play in a mens division then make men play in a womens. I don't think either one of us would be comfortable..what's the point in playing if you aren't having fun?!

Gotta echo several of the comments thus far... you'll probably have a much easier time getting the women in the open or advanced non-gender-protected divisions (they are not "men's" divisions!) than getting the males into the Open Women's division. If I were one of hte guys picked to do that, I'd probably be pretty upset being separated from my friends, and there is that ego issue mentioned earlier...

Chances are if there are only 2 pro women, they've probably played each other head to head many times already. My own preference is to play Int. men, the fields are much larger and I feel more importance in each throw. The payout doesn't mean much to me, and I'd rather play against 20 or 30 guys vs 2 or 3 women. My 2 cents.

Hi,

I played in a few tournaments in Chattanooga, TN as the only Pro woman. They had a great idea and held a certain amount of money back...(Maybe equivalent to a hole sponsorship) and paid extra $$ for every ADV. player I beat. It made it fun and I ended up winning my entry fee back plus about $25.

sara came up with the idea. i thought it was pretty neat. we both pic a guy of our choice- ones who would create good competition. someone who has talent, but we can give a run for the money- boosting all of our games. if they can tough it out and pay the extra 8-10$, it gives them a chance to beat the chicks and take cash. it then doubles our division, and instead of 1 person getting paid out, 2 get paid out being half the division. why not? i think it creates a new fun division, and only the lucky ones get chosen.

people can say we should just play am2, but i think that is silly. am2s are more newer to the sport (for the most part). we have both been playing for a lot longer and there is a difference in tournament play. we could play pro, or shoudl i say donate. thats no fun.

it wouldnt have to be a raffle, i think that whoever we pic should be honored and more guys should be thrilled to be invited to play the womens pro division.

if they dont want to they dont have to. smurfberry was pretty into the idea. but the idea had only been a couple of minutes old, and there was no time to go talk to the td at the event where it came about.

i know alot of guys who play am2 and they have so much talent, but cant perform in tournaments very well. but when they shooot with me they shoot great one day, then the next day i beat them. i think this could makefor some fun #$*&$! competition.

If there's not a Pro Women's division, I play Advanced Open. I think that most women who have moved to Pro don't have any "problems" with competition, and we also don't have any issues playing against the guys - except maybe we haven't thought of doing so in sanctioned events. As Anita said, they may look at you funny for a bit, but Big Whoop (and they get used to it after a tournament or too). Even though I pretty much suck up the bottom of the field in Advanced around here, I like the larger fields, and I like playing with people who can do some things better than I can ... so I can learn something too. I find the tournament experience is completely different when you are playing in a large field than when you are playing against the same 2-3 people for 4 straight rounds.

I'd like a larger Pro Women's field, but realistically there aren't very many of us in the area (SC, NC, GA) and we just can't all make it to every event.

I think you should concentrate your efforts on developing Intermediate and Advanced Womens divisions, and additional growth in the pro divisions will occur from there.

All that said, its always fun to have differnent formats in tournies and its great to see new options on the table - try the ideas out and see how they go over!! Its always good to mix things up, especially in the kind of unsanctioned events where you can do things just to make it fun for the competitors!!

Now days we (pro women) have more options. I had to play pro open in an event because that was the only division available to me. At the time, pro card holders couldn't play in ANY am division. Hope they spent my donation wisely. ;)

With the advent of allowing pros to play am, that really made things easy for pro women looking for competition. So many times I had only my own butt to kick. Now I can (and have) entered Am Masters. I can hang with those guys around here. I know that pro men who play am get all kinds of grief, but for women, it's great.

There is an advanced woman here in Lincoln who plays Intermediate men on occasion. If no other women show up, she would rather play in a larger field of intermediate men.

As tournament playing women, we need to be thinking outside the box.

The key is getting woman playing tourneys period!!

Most women I know play casual but will not play in tourneys...I believe many are intimidated (unknowing of their skills), and the key to the entire Womens Issue is to encourage and promote more women at the entry level. Having clinics for women is a great promotional tool, I attended one given by Burl and Shultz, it was awesome.

I have never met or played with a woman that does not regularly play with men or originally learned from men in their area.

From my own personal experience, I played only with men for about a year...never played in a tourney, never played with another woman. We travel in our RV and all over the country my husband and I would play with the locals. Many men along the way asked if I played in tourneys and suggested that I tried it. I absolutely had no idea that compared to other women I was a pretty good golfer. Many woman measure their ablility against the men...

I'm not sure how you are setting up your non-sanctioned events for divisions. We usually follow the PDGA outline and have Am. Intermediate, Am. Advanced and Pro Open, both for women and men. We have decided at our local series tournaments to remove the gender and have the player choose where they play. I am the only women right now in Advanced and the others are playing Intermediate.

Playing with Advanced men is competition. Usually the top 5 advanced men can compete with the middle to bottom of the Open men. There is no point playing with Intermediate men, as Pro Women should be able to beat them.

Reality is, disc golf is a male dominated sport and women need to make their presence known while gaining the support of the men. In some cases this can be a balancing act, but playing with them, in their division and kicking their butts, quickly tips the scales in our direction.

The majority of men are totally supportive of women in disc golf and will help them with their game and pretty much do anything to see them improve...except play Pro Women so we can prove a point!

The rise of women's tourneys are probably one of our biggest marketing tools. I recently attended Texas Women's Championship TWC and plan to attend USWDGC. Several woman at TWC this year told me that TWC was their 1st tourney in the previous year. They were still playing and competing regularly.

Maybe having mini clinics during the reg weekly minis for the spouses or other interested females would encourage more women to play. Each local group should be able to come up with ideas that would work in their area.

Encourage women to seek out tourneys that are geared toward women or have enough women signed up to make a card. Separate the women from the juniors...as we are not babysitters.

The only way I see to increase the payouts and the fields is to promote from the bottom up and each of us doing our part to encourage more girls and women to play the sport.

OK, I'm going to take this chance to promote STATE GAMES. If your state games are anything like MY state games, the emphasis is on particitation and sportsmanship in the lower divisions.

I have been sport director for the Cornhusker State Games for 8 years. The entry fees are low and all they are playing for are gold, silver and bronze medals. There are many perks (t-shirt and many freebies) that make it more than worth the entry fee. It's a great first tournament.

I make sure that the ladies play together and have a good time. That's what it's all about, isn't it?

I'm gonna have to agree with most of the other women. I'd totally rather play in the men's divisions just because it is so much more of a confidence booster to beat the guys! There is more competition that way rather than just a couple of them moving up to Pro Women.

So, the general feeling I get is that PW don't exactly care about the ca$h, they just want a good time with more women competitors. I appreciate all your help!

Yeah, the cash is always nice, but having fun is what makes it better! That's in my opinion anyway. :)

So, the general feeling I get is that PW don't exactly care about the ca$h,



There's cash in pro womens division?!?! :D

Personally, I have NEVER made money playing disc golf. What cash I do win has only gone to cut my expenses. It has never been about the money. I do prefer winning money to discs, just because I have too many discs as it is. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



they just want a good time with more women competitors.



Pretty much.

Now big time events that attract the big names, that's a different story.

So, the general feeling I get is that PW don't exactly care about the ca$h,



There's cash in pro womens division?!?! :D

Personally, I have NEVER made money playing disc golf. What cash I do win has only gone to cut my expenses. It has never been about the money. I do prefer winning money to discs, just because I have too many discs as it is. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



they just want a good time with more women competitors.



Pretty much.

Now big time events that attract the big names, that's a different story.




11th KOA Pro/Am Jam...............pays 200% to ALL Womens Divisions.


<font color="red"> NorCal Series Web Site </font> (http://www.norcalseries.com)

:D

Pay more money.......have an event that is FUN FOR ALL (Familys included).......they will come.

I regularly have <font color="green">1ST TIME TOURNAMENT PLAYERS </font>, it must be the FUN!!
:D

&lt;deleted by poster&gt;

Hi Ladies,
The '1st Annual WDGA Championships'
PRO/AM tournament is going
to be lots of fun with lots of ctp prizes. We are
going to have trophies and special events.
All divisions are going to be represented.
I would like to ask you to join the
Women's Disc Golf Association.
We are all about females in disc golf
and our quest is to unite all female
disc golfers together under one domain.
Please consider joining us and playing
our first tournament. See Flyer Below:
http://www.womensdiscgolfassociation.com/Flyers/WDGA%20Tournament%20Flyer%20Post%20It.jpg

Pick me! Pick me!

Dang. I always get picked last.

Now that it's winter time again, I'd like to resurrect this thread. One of the things that bothers me the most is the agitation I create just by showing up to events and creating a "problem" for the harried TD's trying to throw everything together. "A Pro Woman? The only one here? Play Pro Men, then". MONEY DOES MATTER to some pro women in the sport. I play every day and am extremely proud of my PW status and even with my talent and experience, I'm not going to beat Bennett or Wyngard, get real. Am I professional in my sport just to donate? I don't think that should be asked of me.

"Play Am Men, then." By the time you get to be a PW, usually you've got more discs than you've got room to store. Throw a Discraft sponsorship into the mix and the fear some TD is going to pay out the AMs in California plastic you'll never throw, and all you've got is the need for more plastic bins and space. Sell them? I have not interest in being a middle man. Provide me with an instant buyer for full price right there at the tourney, then sure.

All I'm really asking for here is an end to the TD's annoyance and confusion, and an end to the rejection and "we have no place for you here" feelings for the PW. All I really want is a policy a TD can refer to when one PW shows up that does not require an auto-donation or playing for more plastic. Some options, perhaps:

1. Automatically doubling the woman's entry fee if she's a loner. She made the trip, she's the one heart-broken no other women in her area made the trip or want to play in 40 degree temps, why not reward her for her dedication to the sport? Where will the money come from? Depends. If this becomes PDGA policy, take it from the fees TDs must pay them. Now there's a push for the PDGA to get involved in creating more women in the sport. (BTW, everyone keeps mentioning holding clinics - MONEY DOES MATTER - and if they can't pay us out for coming, who's going to pay us for teaching?)

2. Pay us in cash for playing with the Am Men.

3. In my experience, added cash has not been applied to the women's division when there is only one woman. Change this. Offer a certain percentage BEFORE the tourney to entice us to come.

4.....let's hear it.

GREAT JOB to the TDs of the Yetter in which they made entry fees $15 for PW - $20 cheaper than the Am Women. Lots of women played up and created a deeper field and great payout. GREAT JOB to John Biscoe for always taking care of the ladies generously. SUPER GREAT JOB to Steve and Jason for their fund-raising abilities and giving $350 to 4th place in a field of 10 PW. Made me feel like a real pro, which doesn't happen all that often.

Well said Sarah, I can understand your dissapointment, stay strong and keep on huckin dat plastic.

1. Automatically doubling the woman's entry fee if she's a loner. She made the trip, she's the one heart-broken no other women in her area made the trip or want to play in 40 degree temps, why not reward her for her dedication to the sport?

Then, other one person divisions need to be part of that policy such as MPG, MPS, MPL, FPM and FPG for example, especially since some of those players will have higher ratings than most women.

2. Pay us in cash for playing with the Am Men.

This has already been tested last year at the Mid-Nationals where pros were allowed to convert their merch prizes at 50% value. I think this option may eventually be expanded by the Competition Committee.

3. In my experience, added cash has not been applied to the women's division when there is only one woman.

This must be regional because in higher tier events, women usually get a higher percentage of the added cash relative to their entry fees than the older men's divisions. It's now a TD recommendation for payouts when added cash is involved.

1. Automatically doubling the woman's entry fee if she's a loner. She made the trip, she's the one heart-broken no other women in her area made the trip or want to play in 40 degree temps, why not reward her for her dedication to the sport?

Then, other one person divisions need to be part of that policy such as MPG, MPS, MPL, FPM and FPG for example, especially since some of those players will have higher ratings than most women.

2. Pay us in cash for playing with the Am Men.

This has already been tested last year at the Mid-Nationals where pros were allowed to convert their merch prizes at 50% value. I think this option may eventually be expanded by the Competition Committee.

3. In my experience, added cash has not been applied to the women's division when there is only one woman.

This must be regional because in higher tier events, women usually get a higher percentage of the added cash relative to their entry fees than the older men's divisions. It's now a TD recommendation for payouts when added cash is involved.

So.......the only thing to do is the current policy of "One person divisions shouldn't be allowed and you should go home or subject yourself to one of the other two options" already mentioned.

No other ideas?

The most wonderful ten year old loosens a little fear on the slim chance there is girl to throw with and just two weeks ago in a "Buff super group out back," her smile was priceless when she out drove a couple beginning men. Is there no substitute for healthier competitiion then the aims to throw further then a man? Doesn't playing in an am group for men set a poor standard? What do we do in the mean time? She is ten and in ten years will have all the oportunity of playing with ten times as many women, and in highschool programs around our state. (4 private schools are starting courses this year) So how can we ease the transition for equality and progresion while maintianing the integrity of sport, not just disc? It is an amazing time to be alive history and intuition tells us but why not sooner then later? The opportunity before us all is amazing, just as this sport is. Just as she is. Is there something outside the "Billy Jean King" syndrome and why can we not find it?

Another epiphany: Of the two genders, who has the most get-up-and-go? It's the boys. Most women get into the sport because their menfolk drag them out to the course. So here's what you do:

Make Mixed Doubles ONLY tournaments and make them very attractive to enter. By doing this you'll have men vying for the pre-existing women in DG, thereby making us feel valuable instead of an embarrassing by-product of the REAL tournament geared toward Pros and Am1s. When the 8 women who play DG in your state are all claimed as partners, then the men have to start looking to their local rec girls as partners and everyone knows a man has more influence over a woman than another woman. He drags her out to the mixed doubles tourney, she gets comfortable with competive play, and seamlessly makes the transition to singles tournaments.

Whatcha think?

good plan...I think if a women's only event is offered....every women should attend....or the TD....may not want to run a women's only event next year.
Many states have engaged to run women only events.....if only 20 people show up....why run it?

I think the answer is,

Women's problems have to be solved by women.

I think women are less likely to play frisbee golf than men for a lot of biological, sociological and evolutionary reasons that I cannot overcome. As a TD I'll always offer the division of 1, and if you preregistered you'll get a nice trophy disc too. Beyond that, I give women the same deal I give men, and whoever wants to play can play.

I think there are two obvious solutions: 1. start a woman's league. 2. A couple of weeks out, get on the phone and get all the women going to the same tournament that weekend.

I don't think there are any quick fixes.

I think y'all are missing the point.

We're not talking about women who are already playing in tournaments here. When Vinnie says run a women's only event and make sure all women come out or when Bruce says get on the phone and call all the women to come out, they are both talking about the same 8 women who are already playing.

Who I am talking about in this post is that girl we all see on the course who is with her boyfriend plus 3 of his friends. She's wearing jeans and doesn't have very good shoes. She has two discs - a putter and a super stable driver - and no bag. All her throws hyzer horrifically. She can putt from 10 feet but rarely makes a longer putt. This is the girl that you are telling me we women are supposed to recruit. Let's envision this scene, then, shall we?

I come bouncing along with my headphones and bag of discs, playing alone. I watch the group throw and the girl throws her 40 foot drive. I step up to the pad and throw a Torque 230 feet under the pin. Then I beeline for the girl, attach myself to her side and start prattling on about our women's league and the women's-only tournament coming up in a month and how she should definitely get involved. There is fear and suspision in her expression as I push to get her number, to give her mine, prompting her to visit PDGA.com, something she'll never remember. I compliment her on her form and throw, but she thinks I'm patronizing her because mine was obviously so much better. She's thinking: Am I hitting on her boyfriend? Why is this crazy girl talking to me? Why don't you leave me alone? Is she a lesbian? If I start playing tournaments and get this obsessed with this silly game, will I become like this sad, lonely, solo-playing, pushy woman, too? Get away from me!!!

Now what are you going to say, that it's the wrong approach? Do you fellas know the dynamics between girls who don't know each other? They really aren't so good. Plus, nobody likes assertive/aggressive women, especially other women.

So back to my original plan. It is NOT pro or even am women who have influence on rec women. It is their friends. Every woman already playing tournaments has already tried to recruit their female friends; that's a given. So now it's the rec girls who have no ties to tournament players or even girls who have never played DG that we want. NEW WOMEN. Back to the Mixed Doubles Tournament. You put rating limits on it, so that a woman with a high rating gets paired with a lower-rated man, and the high-rated men want girls with NO rating, so they can play.

Here's the new situation: 1000 rated Jack says to his friend who plays tennis: You're athletic, come out and play a disc golf tournament as my partner. We'll probably take all my shots, but I'll pick you up, pay your entry and we'll have fun. She says why not, plays her first doubles tourney with supervision and guidance from her partner and 3 months later she's an Am2 at a local singles tourney. Take it from there.

Sarah, if it makes you feel any better my sister is graduating this May from CMU and will most likely be available for some golf after that. She is extremely athletic as she holds several JuCo national records for 3 pt. shooting and free throw shooting. She used to play lots of dubs but with the busyness of school golf sort of was phased out. I'll have her back on the course soon and you'll be able to take her money shortly after that. Be patient, I'll keep my eye out for athletic ladies. And when you are at Pro Worlds in High Bridge, Wi. you should take my sister Laurel out on the course. She wants to get into the game and lives in Ashland, Wi, where the host hotels are. She is very athletic as well and plays B-ball for Northland College. She is interested in the game and it would be great if you could introduce her there. Maybe she could caddy for you and get a taste of what high level golf looks like. She may even have a free place to stay and the food at Northland is the bomb diggity, they have a vegan menu :eek:

sarah i know what you are talking about...
i can not count the times that i would be a kensington and see a group of chicks out there who could throw a decent hyzer and make 10 foot putts. then i would come along, throw a park job. if i didnt make a conversation with them, they have NOTHING to say to me. women are competitve in non sportish ways. so i would always make the point to talk to them and try to show them a thing or two on how to throw. with my psychic abiliites i know what they are thinking- who is this girl, why is she talking to me, is she a lesbian? NO i am ALWAYS trying to recrruit more women. why? so you and i can take their money in the future! but what the guys dont understand is that women dont want to be approached by other women!
i agree, some of this is up to the guys of our sport. i like the doubles idea. it may inspire more chicks to actually come on out and give it a shot. think about it. if there are chicks out at the course they are gonna be FAR more flattered if a guy who can throw a mile talks to them and tries to give them some pointers than if i approach them.
alright, so lets say this Jack guy talks to 20 women at the course. (which i do think there are more ethan 20 women a day who show up on a dailey basis, either with their boyfriends, or with a grorup of friends, at any of the courses by you, i.e, kensington, hudson mills, cass benton) tells them about an event ( i say event because most chicks that i have ever talken to are scared off by the word 'tournament') and half of them show up.(being 10) they show up because they think 'Jack" is interested int them, or they think Jack is lookin good,especially cuz he can throw a mile. out of the ten of them, half may be interested in getting into some formal play. (5) then, the next event, half may show up, being at 2.5, so lets round to 3.
and KABOOM, we have three new chicks who want to play competitively and join the pdga. 3 new local chicks a year. now, down the road, that could add up. i mean, sh it, 3 in one year is huge. theyll start out in am 2 and hopefully in 2 years be motivated to play against teh big dog SKI LOW D, and your 1 person division this year at no foolin could be 4. and thats only 1 year. but also with more newer chicks playing and starting out at am2, they girls who are already playing am 2 will blow them away and move up to am 1, then the chicks who blow them away in am1 will move up to pro. in three years it could be 12, not to mention if we could drag out all the have beens who dont play tournaments regularly anymore, like myself. and this would only be at one course. now multiply that by however many courses there are in MI alone. then multiply that by state, and women could actually out number men in the sport! as we already know, there are more women then men in the world, and women tend to outlive men from what most studies show. the results could be huge, but sorry, i am not a math major, nor do i have a calculator.
it is definately some sort of weird phenominon goin on here. it is hard to get more women interested in compeeting, and i dont really understand, because women are competitive by naure! but Sarah, how many women have you gotten to join the pdga?
here is a classic example of my own personal case study:
a few years ago i met this chick at kensington. i met many chicks out there, but this one seemed different. they had a decent throw, they could putt, but somehow they were scared off. you say the word tournament, or league and they come up with all sorts of excuses as to why they cant do it. they wont be good enough, it takes up too much time, they have an appointment to get their nails done, or their hair did, lol. and through the bombardment of friends in the local dg community this girl finally caved and played her first tournament. from that moment on she was HOOKED. probably moreso than i ever was. its the classic case of the puppy outgrowing their master.
sound familiar to anyone?
whatever they are doin in the kzoo area, someone is doin somethin right. i was lookin at last years results for the coldbrook handicap league and there are like 20 chicks. now that is huge. i am lookin forward to tryin to play that this year and figure out what the heII it is that they are doin around here to make it so much more appealing to women to come out and play. i will investigate and get back to yall in time to come.

AHA! The Yeti Open May 12 is hosting doubles the day before the event. Men Doubles can only win discs and Mixed Doubles are the only division that can play for cash. This is my dream come true; now if only this catches on and all TDs set it up this way - with more doubles tournaments popping up - and the boys will finally do their job and drag the women out.