neonnoodle
Apr 26 2006, 08:52 PM
Chuck brought up an idea somewhere (sorry I'm not going to find it for you) about things that can be done immediately or near a basket to make the putting area or green (I know nothing like it really exists in disc golf (yet) short of the 10 meter no falling circle around the pins). I am intrigued by the idea of using casual relief areas around the pin to provide for faster and more interesting trajectory requirements for putts.

Specifically that if you land in one of the areas you either move on the 5 meter line of play to the first place out of the casual relief area and putt from there or move to a provided drop zone. Sure it would be great to have the resources to create such incredible physical greens that would just make that happen on their own, but it does appear that our current rules do allow for such a designation.

I believe that there is any number of options not used because they haven�t been considered. This one is relatively inexpensive and involves only the effort to mark it out. Has anyone tried this? How about other creations either rules based or physical challenges?

Schoenhopper
Apr 27 2006, 01:32 PM
This is a great topic. Greens do need more challenge to make them smaller. Allowing 2 strokes to hole out is a definition for par, but obviously players average less than 2 strokes from the "circle". Greens are actually as big as 300 wide if you consider the area where 1000 rated players average 2 strokes from. Additional challenge would tighten up the greens.

I didn't get the second question about limiting to physical challenges only. What other type of challenge are we talking about?

Schoenhopper
Apr 27 2006, 01:43 PM
Tree circles with select gaps around the green about 40 out would be great.

One idea for a manmade hazard would be a verticle hazard, such as a 4-5 foot wall. Put in say 30 foot out in a semi-circle only on the front side of the green. Put 2 or 3 gaps in it to reward good shots.

I'm sure there are many other good ideas out there. About the only thing that I know I would be opposed to is shrinking down the basket. That part is tough enough and shrinking the basket would actually take away the impact putting ability has on the game because the make/miss distance would be so much closer.

Apr 27 2006, 01:50 PM
If you land in this area, you must putt left handed? Or with your eyes closed?

A casual area where you are required to back up seems to conflict with the concept of "casual".

johnrock
Apr 27 2006, 01:55 PM
It kind of seems to be going against the game if you have to move your lie. Anytime you land in "X" circle, you have to move to another spot? Just doesn't seem like it fits. A drop zone for going OB is one thing, but it just doesn't seem right on "The Green".

denny1210
Apr 27 2006, 02:39 PM
Under the current rules it appears that a TD should use the drop zone section B under 804.01 "Special Conditions":
"The drop zone may be utilized in special conditions. The director must announce prior to the tournament how it is to be used and if a penalty throw is to be assessed."

I'd be in favor of refining the definitions of "hazards" in the next version of the rules. I think there should be separate definitions for OB, "lateral" hazards, and "no stroke" hazards. I'd also be in favor of making true OB stroke and distance as in golf.

For all types of hazards, I believe that they should be attractive, clearly designated and noted on tee signs and/or score cards all the time, not just for tournament week.

For the "no stroke" type hazards around the green, I think defining them with medium-sized rocks and having two of them painted to define the drop zone could be a good standard.

As to the drop zone not seeming right "on the green", I'd draw a parallel with the golf shot that plugs in the bunker just under the lip. In most cases the smart golfer will take an unplayable lie and drop with penalty in the bunker instead of risking hitting the ball even deeper into the sand to the point it disappears entirely.

Parkntwoputt
Apr 27 2006, 03:28 PM
My favorite greens have usually envolved a degree of elevation change, risk of OB either landscaped or water, or have limited access, such as a tunnel to get to them.

Of course not every disc golf course has the amenities to put baskets in really unique placements as I described.

I liked Chuck's putting mound, but forcing players to take casual relief from different places on the mound do not make sense. I would say, if you want to climb on top of the mound to make your downhill putt then go ahead. Or else put the basket on the dead top of the mound, and make the surface of the mound OB. That way it forces players to make an up hill ~10ft putt, and punishes misses severly. It would be similar to the basket in the creek on Morgan's home course.

Apr 27 2006, 11:56 PM
So if, on a fictitious hole about 325' with the pin on top of a mound, mound being OB as designated by paint or rocks or some object :eek:, I throw a 324' shot that hits the right front of the basket after a beautiful helix ride, then drops straight to the ground and dies right there, I'm gonna get stroked for being OB?

Not and ever play that d********** course again.

(of course, the odds of me throwing 324' are slim anyway...)

--sh

johnrock
Apr 28 2006, 04:44 PM
Actually, the smart golfer will avoid the possibility of plugging in that particular bunker if they have played that hole before :DI see what you're saying, but in that situation, no one requires the player to relocate. This idea that a player won't be able to play it where it lies is just crazy. Players should have to develop shots to get out of special hazards, not move your lie and take a penalty if you don't like where you ended up(and I don't mean OB areas, that's a whole different aspect of the course).

ck34
Apr 28 2006, 05:04 PM
A ball is spherically uniform and will do the same thing regardless of its orientation (assuming the same spin/speed) when it hits or rolls on the green. A disc is only the same (when new) on the radial axis so it's orientation hitting the ground will result in a variety of end results despite the best control of the thrower. The idea for moving DG lies using casual relief is to emulate the effect of ball golf greens when one side of the hole has a slope steep enough that no ball can reside in that position and will always fall away to a gathering area. We can create that effect by having casual relief traps (CR traps) that require the lie to be moved on the line of play or to a drop zone no matter what the orientation of the disc when it lands in the CR trap.

denny1210
Apr 28 2006, 08:07 PM
This idea of CR Traps is growing on me. I do think we need a better name for them, though. I can hear it now, "D'oh! I went in the CRapper left!"

In golf, some greens have "false fronts" that feed everything down into a "collection area", usually where there's a drain. Maybe we could call these hazards Disc Collection Areas. (DCA's)

ck34
Apr 28 2006, 08:22 PM
I agree about a better name. I don't like sand trap because it doesn't have to be made of sand. In fact I think it's unrealistic to maintain sand traps on public courses. I think having uncut grassy areas (or cut less frequently) near the pin would be one natural way to do it. Then use paint to mark it formally for events. Perhaps just calling them 'hazards' would be the closest parallel to BG. Hazards in BG don't require a penalty but the shot is more challenging if you don't take one. In any of our proposed DG hazards, the LOP relief would make the throw more challenging without a penalty.

denny1210
Apr 28 2006, 09:03 PM
I do think that utilizing the forced LOP relief under the "Casual Obstacle" rule is actually a stretch. The text states that a player "may" obtain relief, which dictates they have a choice. I think this rule was created to handle temporary situations and not those designed into a course.

Technically, you could accomplish the desired effect by sub-dividing the "hazard" into thin strips, each of which would have a drop zone down the LOP on the far side of the hazard from the basket.

This is not to say that a rule for this type of hazard couldn't be written to create the intended effect. I prefer the single drop zone or Collection Area concept to the LOP, but wouldn't put up a big fight over it. In any case, I'm definitely in favor of formalizing any such hazard in the rules.

As to a name, I'd say that this "no penalty" hazard could simply and properly be called a "bunker". Bunkers in golf correspond to a slightly more difficult shot, but do not add penalty strokes. Also, they do not have to contain sand as there are plenty of grass bunkers in golf.

The concept of "bunkers" could also be applied to the fairway. If, for instance, a pretty sweet disc golf hole exists, but the fairway is a bit too wide, a fairway "bunker" could be added for less money than a 30 ft. pine tree. The drop zone for the bunker could put the player slightly into the woods with a tight shot out. I'd find a scenario like this much better than simply having OB lines everywhere and just adding a stroke. Of course, holes would have to be labelled accordingly on tee signs and bunkers would have to be highly visible and distinctly defined.

Water and/or other areas on the course that are deemed so by designers could be called "hazards". These areas would add a penalty shot but, unlike golf, the option to play out of them would not be available.

I'd still be in favor of making fence-lines, sidewalks, and roads that define property lines and/or separate distinct areas within a park the only true OB's with the stroke and distance penalty from golf applying to these instances.

ck34
Apr 28 2006, 09:10 PM
Look at the Special Conditions rule 804.01B. The bunkers are more like that rule than casual relief. I like the name 'bunker' and perhaps we could spell it 'bun<font color="red">cr </font>' to indicate it's the special (<font color="red">c</font>asual) <font color="red">r</font>elief type?

denny1210
Apr 28 2006, 09:23 PM
Chuck,
don't forget that I wrote this,
I agree with everything you just said ;)

ck34
Apr 28 2006, 09:30 PM
It's easier when I only write a little bit :D

circle_2
Apr 29 2006, 04:54 PM
Hutchinson, Kansas has their DG course on an old ball golf course (I think)...and we played out of the bunkers with a mandatory overhand shot; either a 2 finger Tommy or a thumber. Kinda cool!

quickdisc
Apr 30 2006, 05:28 PM
Look at the Special Conditions rule 804.01B. The bunkers are more like that rule than casual relief. I like the name 'bunker' and perhaps we could spell it 'bun<font color="red">cr </font>' to indicate it's the special (<font color="red">c</font>asual) <font color="red">r</font>elief type?


/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

august
May 01 2006, 02:10 PM
I like "bunker", but I'm not sold on the re-spelling :D

I have bunkers at my course here at home. On the first hole, there are grassy areas that I only cut once a year that could be used as bunkers, either for casual relief or flat out OB.

But I am not going to install a 4-5 foot wall near the green, or anywhere else for that matter on any golf course I build. Landscaping, either by planting or creative grass cutting, is the way to go in order to keep things as natural looking as possible.

ck34
May 02 2006, 12:19 AM
I agree, everything should look at least as natural as a basket, plastic or metal tee sign and cement tee pad which of course provides much latitude for naturalness... :)

august
May 02 2006, 08:15 AM
How about a large natural piece of plywood with a natural looking clown painted on it with a large hole in its mouth through which you must throw?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. I realize that everybody will have slightly different standards.

neonnoodle
May 04 2006, 08:23 PM
We've got a tournament coming up in July on a course that really hasn't had an event in a number of years, so we have tons of work to do just to make sure the course plays smoothly in mid-summer. But I'd really like to add some of the ideas being discussed around the greens and even mid fairway for longer holes.

Large amounts of sand are is not practical, but deep pot bunkers could be done. We have access to a bull dozer with back hoe.

I'd like to see more ideas for inexpensive options.

paul
May 05 2006, 01:43 PM
Nick -- please don't dig any holes at Kennett. Only the shadow knows what would climb out of the ground there.

Schoenhopper
May 06 2006, 11:39 PM
This might be a discussion for a completely new thread but...

Have you ever considered building an indoor disc golf course? It couldn't have long, open holes as they would be too easy to reach and indoor space is way too expensive.

So, you would have to create a mini disc golf course. Using nets or walls or whatever to force shots to hit a combination of vertical and horizontal requirements would make short holes more challenging. This could look like crud, or you could get very creative with it.

Then you can take what you learned using vertical hazards and combine them with trees and natural elevation on the actual disc golf course to make more difficult aprroach to the green.

If it is done well, a wall or such would not have to be an eyesore to the course. Especially if you use an elevated tee, or have a clear view of the hole from the tee. I think there is probably a lot of things we haven't yet thought of to add an extra dimension to the game.

May 07 2006, 04:34 PM
Michael, I keep thinking about the same idea, given all the malls that are closing in recent years. Malls that had 2-3 major anchors would be great...multilevel (boy, does THAT give new meaning to 'under the playing surface') courses, a couple of atrium shots, maybe an escalator corridor or two.

May 23 2006, 03:35 PM
this seems stupid to me. Just build better courses. Some courses will have faster greens, some won't. Take a look at Ashtabula, OH some time...they have some of the best green ever in disc golf. It is a challange like no other I have found yet.

Lyle O Ross
May 23 2006, 04:33 PM
The idea of casual relief areas doesn't appeal to me. I like my hazards to be real. Try out holes. Yep. Try putting from 15 feet out while standing in a 6 foot deep hole (or even a 5 foot deep hole. Oh, and you don't have to call them sand traps, you can call 'em holes.

Easy to make, got a shovel? Easy to maintain, got a shovel?

denny1210
May 23 2006, 10:23 PM
moving dirt to create dropoffs around baskets and increase the possibility of three-putting is great, but you need more than shovels. if you've got access to a backhoe and a bobcat for about an hour a hole then you're good to go.

until we've increased our course budgets to include such expenses we can utilize cheaper methods. just make sure holes are well labelled on tee signs and the hazards are clearly marked.

nick, what'd you end up doing for the tourney?

james_mccaine
May 24 2006, 10:42 AM
The idea for moving DG lies using casual relief is to emulate the effect of ball golf greens when one side of the hole has a slope steep enough that no ball can reside in that position and will always fall away to a gathering area. We can create that effect by having casual relief traps (CR traps) that require the lie to be moved on the line of play or to a drop zone no matter what the orientation of the disc when it lands in the CR trap.



That's an interesting concept.

I welcome almost anything that is fair and makes this game tougher.

Nick, intentionally digging holes in an area where you intend people to be seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen.

Moderator005
May 24 2006, 02:23 PM
At a course in my state, some golfers (not the official course pro or liason with the park) built a wall near a basket with rocks. They also dug a hole just before it, creating a "bunker" effect. This hazard was just where a good, but not stellar drive would land, and make for a really tough putt.

Unfortunately this hole was one of the closest to the park road and park workers soon destroyed the wall and filled in the hole. The biggest complaint from the park service was that it was not "aesthetically pleasing,", but it was also because of the hole. There are rules about digging holes, probably as mentioned because it's a lawsuit waiting to happen.

The basket is not as close to the wall as it appears, probably a good 25-30 feet behind.

http://www.bearclaws.org/dbls420020.jpg

http://www.bearclaws.org/dbls420018.jpg

ck34
May 24 2006, 08:12 PM
I would suggest that any bunkers not look like they are ready for a casket...

denny1210
May 24 2006, 10:55 PM
is that the blair disc project?

quickdisc
Sep 25 2006, 07:14 PM
I have played on baskets within 5 meters of a Cliff !!!! :eek:

stevenpwest
Oct 16 2006, 02:18 PM
At the bottom or the top?

http://home.comcast.net/~stevewest4/Little_Niche.jpg

711
Oct 23 2006, 05:51 PM
can ya take a pix of the fairway?

sure wud hate to be on the opposite end of the spectrum with no viable stairway..

stevenpwest
Oct 26 2006, 08:20 PM
That is the view from the tee. The (un)fairway is a rocky dry creek between the tee and the basket.

kadiddlhopper
Nov 04 2006, 06:26 PM
I think Chutes and Ladders oughtta remain as a board game. I can see laying a log down to stop skips and rollers in, in some instances, as well as a bamboo wall or similar man placed obstacles. To just designate areas as a hazard, that aren't hazardous, seems kinda cheezy.

ck34
Nov 05 2006, 11:33 PM
Hazards in ball golf are sand and water, not exactly hazardous except maybe near Loch Ness...

kadiddlhopper
Nov 16 2006, 10:06 PM
Hazardous to play BG shots from. Unlike DG where some sand, water, or even weeds don't effect us too much. Much less a spray painted line!

ck34
Nov 16 2006, 10:16 PM
The point is we usually don't have the budget to create equivalents to BG hazards, but having that element of risk/reward in the game is worthwhile. So, perhaps we should try our best to have our hazards not look cheesey, but do them anyway even if they do, to improve the quality of the game.

Jeff_LaG
Nov 16 2006, 11:30 PM
Hazardous to play BG shots from. Unlike DG where some sand, water, or even weeds don't effect us too much. Much less a spray painted line!



Water, especially deep, surely affects us, and I'd make the case that weeds and high grass does as well. I know that when there is waist-high grass at many courses in the Mid-Atlantic Region, it certainly affects my shot choice and throwing motion. I may choose a safer shot and sacrifice distance to avoid a lost disc, and if I still find the tall grass hazard, my run-up and delivery may be affected.


The point is we usually don't have the budget to create equivalents to BG hazards, but having that element of risk/reward in the game is worthwhile. So, perhaps we should try our best to have our hazards not look cheesey, but do them anyway even if they do, to improve the quality of the game.



There must surely be some type of low-cost, resilient bush or shrubbery that is 6' or more tall and would make for an excellent hazard, and would look more natural than blatantly artifical ones. I'd almost have the quality of the game suffer slightly if the only recourse was cheesey hazards.

ck34
Nov 16 2006, 11:42 PM
Perhaps fortunately, cheesey hazards aren't likely to last in a public course environment except long enough for special events like the USDGC. Otherwise, some more natural looking hazards we can make like sand pits can be built maintained on private courses.

Nov 17 2006, 12:34 PM
[quote
There must surely be some type of low-cost, resilient bush or shrubbery that is 6' or more tall and would make for an excellent hazard, and would look more natural than blatantly artifical ones. I'd almost have the quality of the game suffer slightly if the only recourse was cheesey hazards.

[/QUOTE]

I have the solution. This is a little project I have been working on......... The company I work for has donated 8 concrete flower planters to my home course. They are very nice and expensive. I plan on transplanting live bamboo to grow in these planters. The great thing about bamboo is that it is a prolific species of weed. It just keeps growing . Eventually I will have 8 portable obstacles, 5 to 6 feet high. This could serve many purposes for a tournament. And the best thing of all, is that the Bamboo is restricted to an area where it can not migrate and contaminate areas where the bamboo is not necessary. Fortunately bamboo is in abundance here in funkytown, so it is all free, less the labor. Just a suggestion.

sillycybe
Nov 21 2006, 03:18 PM
Here's hole 7's basket at Criss Cross - The Bermuda Triangle. A good drive can leave you sitting pretty, but the basket is protected very well.
http://www.esdgc.com/pics/hole7.JPG

Here's another fun fun hole at Criss Cross - Mando Madness. Not a putting green, but a fun hole all the same.
http://www.esdgc.com/pics/hole9.JPG

quickdisc
Nov 30 2006, 04:30 PM
Here's hole 7's basket at Criss Cross - The Bermuda Triangle. A good drive can leave you sitting pretty, but the basket is protected very well.
http://www.esdgc.com/pics/hole7.JPG

Here's another fun fun hole at Criss Cross - Mando Madness. Not a putting green, but a fun hole all the same.
http://www.esdgc.com/pics/hole9.JPG



Nice Mando.

stevenpwest
Dec 09 2006, 07:03 PM
At the bottom or the top?

http://home.comcast.net/~stevewest4/Little_Niche.jpg


In the interest of safety I should point out that this basket was photo-shopped into the picture. This would be an unsafe place for a target, because the land at the top of the bluff has been carved by the stream into a funnel shape, resulting in logs and rocks falling into this cove. In fact, right where the pole is in this picture, there is a 6" diameter log which fell from the top and stuck into the ground.

In general, rocks will fall off cliffs, and stuff at the top of the cliff will fall over the edge, especially in the spring. Baskets and tees should be set outside the falling rock zone.

(Now I can sleep at night.)

quickdisc
Jan 23 2007, 08:00 PM
At the bottom or the top?

http://home.comcast.net/~stevewest4/Little_Niche.jpg


In the interest of safety I should point out that this basket was photo-shopped into the picture. This would be an unsafe place for a target, because the land at the top of the bluff has been carved by the stream into a funnel shape, resulting in logs and rocks falling into this cove. In fact, right where the pole is in this picture, there is a 6" diameter log which fell from the top and stuck into the ground.

In general, rocks will fall off cliffs, and stuff at the top of the cliff will fall over the edge, especially in the spring. Baskets and tees should be set outside the falling rock zone.

(Now I can sleep at night.)



:D

z Vaughn z
Feb 04 2007, 10:11 PM
Has anyone here played Toboggan? It is a temporary course put in for the USADGC, but will be used for this year's Discraft Great Lakes Open. I believe Toboggan has the best greens I've ever played. I have only played about 20 courses outside of the state, but I feel that this course represents where the sport needs to go in terms of putting greens.
I come from a background in traditional ball golf course architecture. I worked on Crystal Downs in Frankfurt, MI that was once ranked in the top 25 in the world and has said to have the toughest greens only to be matched by Oakmont. Therefore, I believe I have a good feel for how Disc Golf greens should challenge their golfers.
The strength of Toboggan's greens are often not from the putting standpoint. Uphill and downhill putts are prominent here, but the skill that is required to hold these greens are what highlight this course. The 2 best greens that come to mind are Holes #6, and 17. Hole 6's green offers a straight, low ceiling approach. Any right handed hyzer shots will likely skip left adding 10 to 20 feet to your putt. The ideal approach is to keep the disc flat to skip forward up the small slope. Hole 17's approach is also very difficult. The green is extremely small(about 40 feet wide and only 20 feet deep crowned protected by bushes and trees.) An approach shot coming in left of the basket will likely leave you with a relatively easy putt. However, any approach coming in deep is likely to skip, or roll down a hill leaving a 10 foot uphill putt.
Toboggan's natural design is incredible. Difficult greens that provide trees, bushes, and hills highlight the course. If disc golf embraced a course design that included bulldozing and green design that closely resembled that of ballgolf, we'd all enjoy more challenging, and aesthetically pleasing courses.

tommyb
Feb 08 2007, 01:43 AM
I could not agree more Zach.

tommyb
Feb 14 2007, 11:49 AM
To see some great walk thru photos of the tobbogan course click here (http://www.local101dg.com/Toboggan-hole1.htm)


If you like what you see and are interested in playing the course come out to DGLO this year. Am 1s will play it once and pros will get to play it twice.

Feb 14 2007, 05:35 PM
To see some great walk thru photos of the tobbogan course click here (http://www.local101dg.com/Toboggan-hole1.htm)


If you like what you see and are interested in playing the course come out to DGLO this year. Am 1s will play it once and pros will get to play it twice.



I'll have the full course, end to end, covered in the next episode of Disc Golf Live. Look for that to be ready towards the end of the month. Folks unfamiliar with this great course might enjoy the views!

Joe Wander
Producer and Editor
Disc Golf Live video magazine

Bring some DG to your TV today
(also available via subscription; retailers welcome!)

wander
Feb 15 2007, 09:49 AM
To see some great walk thru photos of the tobbogan course click here (http://www.local101dg.com/Toboggan-hole1.htm)


If you like what you see and are interested in playing the course come out to DGLO this year. Am 1s will play it once and pros will get to play it twice.



I'll have stem to stern coverage of the Toboggan course in the next episode of Disc Golf Live, for those who might want to get a full view of the course. Look for the show to be ready around the end of the month.

DGL is available free to those facilitating local broadcasts on community access TV, and subscription/single copies are also available. Retailers welcome.

Joe

DSproAVIAR
Feb 15 2007, 02:19 PM
SWEEEEET

xterramatt
Feb 20 2007, 11:34 AM
Those are good greens, 6 and 17. I also think hole 8 is a great green. It's tightly guarded, but if you get a disc to get down there (steep righty hyzer hole, 60ft elevation drop) you have a chance at the 3. You can even go long into the woods if you aren't careful, and any shots too far left or right at the right distance are punished by tough low ceiling approaches into a narrow mouth.

Tupelo Bay temp course had about 5 or 6 mound targets, hole 3, 5, 6, 8, 11, 15. On a groomed ball golf course, this adds extra challenge to both the approach regardless of dominant hand, but also made you think lay up or go for it.

Sweet course.

skaZZirf
Mar 01 2007, 01:24 PM
TTupelo i a sweet course and the tupelo bay open is an AWESOME event.

bschweberger
Mar 05 2007, 11:31 AM
Yes iTT is

Fishead_Tim
Mar 07 2007, 08:46 AM
I Agree!

I'll be back to put a whooping on the MulleTT Heads and The Scaredi-Shultz's ,... :D

tommyb
Apr 06 2007, 01:10 PM
Here are a few photos I got off the cinncinatti dg site of Idlewild park. We played this course on our way back from BG on Monday and I was really blown away by the challenge and beauty of this course. Here are a few of the notable putting greens.

http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild2b.jpg http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild3b.jpg http://www.cincinnatidiscgolf.com/images/CoursePics/Idlewild/Idlewild15b.jpg

Coryan
Apr 07 2007, 06:39 AM
Here are a few photos I got off the cinncinatti dg site of Idlewild park. We played this course on our way back from BG on Monday and I was really blown away by the challenge and beauty of this course. Here are a few of the notable putting greens.


WOW, beautiful!

jstupak
Jun 16 2007, 12:17 AM
Those are old pictures too, which is the beauty of Idlewild. The Middle Picture (Hole 3's basket) now has flowers which are OB about 30 feet directly behind the basket in the picture.
The creek is typically 30 feet from the pin, so your approach shot really makes you consider whether to lay it up in front of the creek and make a 35 foot putt or go big and try to land on the island. The trees usually prevent that. :)

perica
Feb 05 2008, 01:21 PM
the last picture is the green on the 1000 ft hole 15. now the near side of the creek has ob defined also.