what would be the best disc to use for a sidearm throw to get the most distance out of <font color="blue"> </font>

I am getting my best distance right now with a Viking.
The disc that flies furthest for you will probably be different. You have to find what works for you. Try as many discs as you can until you find that disc.

what would be the best disc to use for a sidearm throw to get the most distance out of <font color="blue"> </font>



With proper sidearm technique, you should be able to throw the same discs sidearm that other people are throwing for long distance with a back hand throw.

I do not have proper side arm technique, I am still working on it. But I mainly use a Teebird for most of my sidearm shots and if I can get 300ft with that, I am really happy.

proper technique......well maybe to some. But I think the sidearm is quite a different thrown than a backhand. There is much more spin and speed on the disc when thrown sidearm. I throw sidewinders and valks backhand, but use FX firebirds for my sidearm. I can throw the other discs and they fly far but they are much more touchy. I like the reliability of the firebird. I can thrown backhand 325-375 and sidearm 325-375. So who knows. The new TeeRex really gets some good distance though.

It all depends on how much torque you put on the disc. Proper technique does not mean that you will use the same disc as you would backhand. You may get more power sidearm than you do with a backhand, so you might have to step up the stability of the disc you throw for sidearm. Im just rambling........


Others I know throw sidewinders, flashs, valks, orcs.

It depends on where you realease the disc I guess. I have a higher 3/4 sidearm type of throw. Others throw lower.

One of the best side arm throwers I know will throw a Wraith sidearm for long throws. He has perfect technique and can throw just as far backhand as he does side arm, even as a Grand Master he is still breaking 400ft on big drives.

I started with FX's, after two or three year's of that, I can now throw just about anything, except my roller discs! Wraith's and Avenger's are nice. It's all about being smooth. If you can't get rid of the flutter, long gentle hyzers with a less stable disc are going to be quite difficult. So, just work on being smooth and experiment with different rim-depths. Some people might like a Monster over a Firebird, whatever. Experimenting with mid-range discs for approachess helps reduce flutter as well.

Sidearm (SA) will have a different RPM-to-speed ratio than a backhand (BH) throw. So the key to adding SA skill is to figure out how to balance the factors of disc stability / RPMs / flight speed (how fast you throw, not a disc's speed rating). If you've been throwing BH for long enough to get good at it, you've already learned this balancing act once. So comparing your 'novice' SA throws to your 'expert' BH throws might initially leave you disappointed with the SA results. SA may not require as much practice to get good as was needed to learn BH, but it will take quite a few throws in varying conditions to become skilled.

So, the short answer is to use the same discs SA that you use BH. You'll find your own preferences over time. You'll probably be more successful learning with your current disc lineup and tweaking that as you go. You might have a better start, and fewer wild throws, with heavier and more overstable discs until you get a handle on the stability/snap/speed balance.

One thing that may deter people from learning SA after they've become proficient at BH, is that when they started golfing they probably had a couple discs. It's easier to learn to throw only one disc than to learn how to throw PLUS learn how each disc flies. If someone tries to learn SA after playing for some time, they might have 10-15 discs so it may be worthwhile to choose an SA disc and throw it till you learn to make it do what you want. Then choose another disc with different flight characteristics and learn to throw it SA.

YMMV

You are right, I am predominately a BH thrower. I developed that good enough where I will hardly ever throw a sidearm shot even on dogleg right turns.

As far as throwing your common discs. That is the reason I side arm a teebird. There are not too many holes out there that I cannot reach with a teebird (i.e. +400ft), it is my primary driver and the one I have the most trust in. As far as approach shots I will side arm a Gator, which is my primary approach disc from angles.

While learning BH first, then taking 18 months to develope a decent sidearm, I was very frustrated. My SA teebird is only going as far as my BH midranges at 75%.

Control is the key. I have heard people say that they can only keep Firebirds straight. That is because they were breaking their wrists. AKA bad form.

i am also getting distance with my viking and my roadrunner. also is a orc a good disc to throw for sidearm s-curve shots

If you are throwing side arm so the disc ends up going right(if thrown right handed) you should obviously use an over stable disc. For long distance sidearm shots I would use: Tee-Rex, Monster, Firebird. Throwing a lighter version of these discs 165-170g will also increase the glide and may not produce as much strain on your arm. Try a Firebird L for maybe longer helix sidearm shots. For short range sidearm shots I would use : Banshee, Whippet, Viper

Try the Flick and Flash. I started throwing the X-clone when I was learning to play because it feels really good with the 2finger side arm grip. I threw all side arm the first 2 years of playing and have experimented with many discs. I found the wider rim discs better because of their overall comfort and balance in the hand.

Remember it is all about snap.

I throw both backhand and forehand, though my forehand is about 100' behind my backhand (350' compared to 450'). I have gotten rid of flutter on my standstill SA shots, but still have a little unsmoothness when I do the SA X-step and really crank on it. I have always had a different main driver BH than FA. For example I also throw the Teebird backhand on any hole between 360-400'+, but I cannot throw the Teebird FA at all. It flutters. For the last month I've been throwing the Champion Starfire, and for the first time I have a disc that flies the same for me FA and BH.

I think the teebird is a great disc to learn sidearm with. Some of the larger rimmed drivers feel kind of weird in the hand (at least for me). I also agree with the viking, even though I throw my Orcs for shots around 350-375 (and they work GREAT for S shots), and my Wraiths for about everthing over that. In an open field, I've cranked some flex shots with a pro wraith, but to start with and learn good form, the teebird is a great disc to learn.

For distance I use the T-Rex for throwing into the wind and the Wraith when theres little or no tail wind and a T-Bird L when throwing with the wind. I havent messed about with too many Discraft disks but I do like the Z Extra since you can put alot behind it and it'll go dead straight for 80% of its flight.The main key to distance when throwning SA is controlling how much power you put into your throw. I've seen alot of people turnover and roll discs because they think they have to throw 100% power on all their distance drives. A friend of mine uses a beat up DX Viper for his 300-325 drives.

I never used to throw sidearm till Feb of this year and I started throwing it with a speed demon thats the only disc I will throw it with too. I'm throwing 300' with it now.

What would probably be the best arm slot for a forehand?

I've been working all winter on mine, but I'm very inconsistent... I've found that my best moments come when I'm not thinking about the shot, and even then I screw up royally about a third of the time. Most of the time when I overthink it I tend to send it on a high rise straight out in front of me, hyzer bombing way off to the right of my intended fairway.

In general I try to just pound the forehand out as hard as I can, considering I started by just throwing a max wgt Monster out there with as much snap as possible...

But yeah... lets say I'm throwing a 172 Wraith, whats the best arm slot to release it at? Er... yeah.


-Chris.

There is much more spin and speed on the disc when thrown sidearm.


Sorry to nit-pick, but I don't believe this to be true regarding spin.
Folks generally prefer a more overstable disc to help compensate for 'less' spin imparted to a disc thrown SA >>> reducing turnover...and these overstable discs help to reduce/dampen any initial flutter for a better flight with poor/poorer technique. Good technique is required for throwing understable discs due to a clean release.

World record max backhand distance exceeds forehand/sidearm distance...likely due to more spin & speed.

.02

As someone that throws forehand 85% of the time I can safely say that it generates far less spin overall. If you just look at the two grips you can see that a backhand grip allows the thrower to hold disc almost 180 degrees from release where as a forehand grip is closer to 90 degrees from release. I can definitely throw harder forehand but the disc doesn't travel as far as a backhand with the same amount of energy applied because of the lack of spin.

Sidearm can be thrown with any disc, the same as backhand. One problem with sidearm is getting a clean, non fluttering throw. Another problem is the variability of nose angle possibilities with the sidearm vs the backhand. Nose up is easier with a backhand, nose down is easier with a side arm. The range of usable nose up and down with a sidearm is greater. Grip strength determines how fast a disc can be launched, no matter how much power or speed is put into the throw. If the grip is not strong enough to transfer the power into the disc, it will be wasted in slip. That being said, the backhand grip uses four fingers for power. The sidearm uses two fingers, not including the Thumb. I don't know if this is a definitive answer or not, but it makes sense to me in light of theorists claiming that the sidearm is a more powerful throw. More power, but less gets to the disc.

I only use 1 finger under the lip when I throw sidearm feel i can control it better with one than 2

I only use 1 finger under the lip when I throw sidearm - feel i can control it better with one than 2


I learned this one the hard way - via spending several weeks with the 2-finger - and then exchanged some PMs with Chris Hysell and tried the 1-finger grip...VOILA! Great feel for the touchshots that can get me outta trouble! I know I'm giving up at least 50-70' in max distance/power...but I rarely drive with a SA, except for short dogleg righties.

Index finger or middle finger ?

I would Highly recommend trying out a avenger. I've been thowing forehand for years now. Started with the xclone then threw a xpress for years then I got on a sidewinder kick. If you find the right sidewinder you can throw it 350 using about 50% of your power. But the only problem is after a while they tend to get too understable. But the avenger is a perfect mix of all discs I have thrown, it has good glide, it's straight as can be, and you don't have to throw it that hard.

Also like somebody else mentioned using lighter discs helps a lot. Personally I like the 165-168 range.

Index finger or middle finger ?


Index.

Do you prefer X or Z Avengers?

Do you prefer X or Z Avengers?



I use them both. I feel that the x plastic is a tad bit more understable so it takes less force shoot a laser beam right up a tight fairway. I use the z when I want a little overstable fade at the end of the flight.

I would say that I can probably throw the x a little farther.

I know that proline is different than X, but I agree with the idea that you can sidearm the mid grad plastic a bit farther than the premium. I can get a new pro starfire and just bomb that thing.

I hear the TRex is getting big sidearm distance.

I hear the TRex is getting big sidearm distance.


c/s

Like big 450+ distance? Or like big 360-375 on a hyzer distance? Still my favorite thing for D is a pro wraith flex shot.

My TeeRex can go about 50 feet farther than an FX firebird. but its touchy.

1 finger sidearms huh???? seems dangerous. lol. I love the 2 finger, but I use both fingers on the rim. none of that chicken wing crap.


also, for those who throw firebirds, do you use them as an s-curve or hyzer. I use mine for s-curves or dead straight.

If you are looking for some sidearm distance, throw backhand!!! :) No it took me a while to learn a clean release is the most important thing. I don't throw sidearm a lot but can probably throw 500' online distance and 300' actual distance

The best way to increase your sidearm distance is to lie about it on the internet.

I'm in the process of learning how to throw backhand right now, because any time I attempt to throw anything 375+ I can't keep it in the fairway. It seems everytime I'm in Fayetteville I run into Dayson and see something I'm doing wrong, but I've got no other sidearm throwers up here.

i have been throwing sidearm for a while now and i have just been really walking up to throw. if i were to run up would you think it would make any difference in my distance?

if i were to run up would you think it would make any difference in my distance?



If you run really, really fast, it could make a difference! :D

Seriously, I have found that trying to make a run up with a side arm throw just impedes the smoothness of the throw. I normally take three quick, small steps and let it fly.

Anybody thowing sidearm with those Orion SFs? What kind of distance are you getting compared to other discs?

Theres no point in running up...unless you want to throw a forhand roller. There is already enough forward speed from your arm to overturn even the most overstable disc no reason to make it worse. Plus walking up/stepping into the throw/ or standing in one spot will help you keep better control on where you're releasing the disc.

running up for a flick only adds to error...i take 2 steps if any at all for my flicks....i am only able to flick firebirds because its the most predicitable disc for that required shot.....i can s curve em out 300-350 but anything that far is either a turnover roc or driver depending on the angle to the hole.....anything else thats and anny and under 300 ill flick.....s curve or straight hyzer....do what is comfortable for you but thats what i do.....i have a little bit of skill at it....i did wedge a flick on a ctp the other weekend in the side of a basket from about 200 out straight hyzer but c lee still beat me in a playoff for the basket :mad:

The best way to increase your sidearm distance is to lie about it on the internet.

So it is similar to how you increase your backhand distance. ;)

this is something that i have been battleing for a while, but i think that i have just found a nice balance. I have always like throwing with my SA. I can BH drive 400ft with an Orc or a Wraith, but it is almost impossible to throw those discs with a SA. I have been trying to find a disc that will fly like a Hyzer if your left handed when i SA with my One Finger. I recommend getting a Flick, which i can throw 400ft now. For me, i have such a fierce snap when i One Finger my SA, that i will throw a Flick as a left handed player would throw and Anhyzer. Super big distance. If i dont SA drive with a Flick then i am Using a 173g. Monster, But the T-Rex has a hard time coming back as fast as the Flick.

All i drive with is a one finger flick. I Love the Star Wraith and The Star thunder chickens for D. I throw orcs for shorter distance and "righty BH hyzer shots". I just started throwing the t-rex and i like those on downhill shots. I can two finger flick a star aviar pretty nice as well.

I finally broke 500' with my sidearm yesterday...#15 City Park, Live Oak, TX, 521'. I threw a gently used pro wraith on a tight little s-curve and ended pin high left, 40' putt. Of course I missed it, but dropped in the three...next time I'm going for the deuce!!

Theres no point in running up...unless you want to throw a forhand roller. There is already enough forward speed from your arm to overturn even the most overstable disc no reason to make it worse. Plus walking up/stepping into the throw/ or standing in one spot will help you keep better control on where you're releasing the disc.


I'm not quite sure about that. I have two run ups - one for a standard forehand drive (300-375) and a faster more energetic one used for all out distance, or longer holes inaccessable by a backhand. Currently my farthest forehand throw is with a Pro Starfire (475), but I am also achieveing 450 regularly with a Star TeeRex. Run ups definitly help.

Im an old submarine pitcher so I just use my baseball pitching wind-up. A buddy of mine said he though I might try and pick him off on second so I quit looking back and just focus on throwing. I can throw about 300 no problem like this. For all out distance, the Scott Stokely three step arm swing technique works great.

What I want to know is how far is the distance record for a forehand? Back when I was first starting, I was able to rip my arm off throwing forehand. Legitamate 475' flat ground, moderately favourable wind. I know Avery Jenkins threw 505' with a moderate elevation advantage - but I am looking for a standard distance record (Not - I threw 1000' forehand off of a 500' elevated tee....). If anyone out there claims they have measured or witnessed a 500+ throw, I want to know.

I think that Scott Stokely still holds the distance record for a sidearm shot... Dunno what that record is though. I will try to find it.

I was throwing 360 run up sidearms yesterday...

not very accurate, but I got a hell of a lot of distance out of them.

with practice and patience, you should be able to throw any disc sidearm as far as you can backhand. They will be slightly less stable when thrown sidearm, but I believe that is because of the amount of snap generated. By I can throw and aviar 200, my roc 250-275 and my firebirds 350. Just practice. Best way to get good at sidearm is by practicing with an ultimate disc. That's my opinion....been throwing ultrastars for 20 years.

My longest sidearm ultrastar shot came in at 317 feet a few years back.

side arm shots are easy to learn all you have to do is tear up a shoulder so bad that side arm is the only throw possible. after that you get good at it. distance for me is about a dead draw between fore and back hand shots now that the shoulder is healed up but the side arm allows for a more accurate shot and gives a right handed player a left handed shot without the need to learn anti. I am older so about 300 is all i can do, but in talking around Tulsa the feeling is that side arm shots could be as much as 200 feet shorter than normal back hand shots. Of course that may be due to the fact that most distance throwers don't bother with a side arm delivery and the true distance record is still out there some where in the arm of a young gun waiting for a shoulder strain to force a change on them.

I think physically, a sidearm should be able to generate more distance easier than a backhand drive. Most people do not develop the ability to throw sidearm for distance unless they take the time to learn all the ins and out of getting their whole body behind the throw. I perform a no step sidearm shot and can manage to throw a 400 foot hyzer flip sidearm shot. I know that with practice I could learn to power through the shot with my whole body and get that extra 50 or more + feet. Right now it comes out like a wounded duck. When it does work right, Its simply awesome to watch.

Got the flutter out of my Scott Stokely 3 step run up for sidearm. Seems I have been rushing the run up, and swinging my arm too fast. Now I just do a 3 step walk up and really snap that "towel" at the last second. Getting better, but the disc is still trying to go up high instead of flat and straight.

http://www.discraft.com/gallery/2006_glo/images/glo06_sun125.jpg
Geoff Bennett.

Wow. That is what I call leading with your elbow.

http://www.discraft.com/gallery/2006_glo/images/glo06_sun125.jpg
Geoff Bennett.

Wow............is that guy double jointed ? If I threw that way , I'd break my elbow and dislocate my shoulder. :eek: :D

is the guy behind him kneeling or standing in a hole? :eek:

The trick to throwing sidearm shots further is incorporating your hip into the equation. A really good example of what not to do is in the picture posted above. As you can see the subject's hip has completely collapsed in, which means that shot went either really far right or it took him wasting a lot of arm speed to flatten that shot out. When you step through the tee pad your body should be as erect as it can be and your elbow and hip should be lined up together and move on the same vertical plane. As many of you know it doesn't take a lot of force to get the disc spinning when thrown sidearm, so instead of leading with your elbow try to concentrate more on the hip area. This will save your shoulder and elbow from getting torn up from frequent throws. My only other suggestion to gain more distance is to throw lighter and more overstable discs. Try throwing 165-169g Monster or Firebird.

Side arm is just the opposite of a normal backhand throw.

thats all you really need to remember.

Equal out the spin and arm speed and you will end up the same distance as throwing backhand.

The key is learning to flip up a disc to get distance...and I dont mean just turning it over.
I've see a sidearm thrower throw a Sidewinder and get the same distance I get with a Wraith sidearm(well close...heh)

Alot of us forhanders shy away from understable discs since its alot easier to throw a overstable/highspeed disc.

grab one of the flippy discs and learn to control it throw it sidearm. It'll greatly help you out with your distance.

is the guy behind him kneeling or standing in a hole? :eek:


The teepad is elevated a couple of feet.
Isn't that elbow angle nuts?!? I haven't seen it myself, but word is Geoff can throw a sidearm 550' with a Surge. He is also the best jump-putter I have ever seen or played with.

A really good example of what not to do is in the picture posted above. As you can see the subject's hip has completely collapsed in, which means that shot went either really far right or it took him wasting a lot of arm speed to flatten that shot out.



I'm not sure if it's good form or not, but results (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/playerstats.php?PDGANum=24962&year=2006) don't lie.

there is nothing wrong with that form. Bet he gets some wicked snap.

WOW - 550'! That I have to see. My guess is that he is throwing fairly high with a solid right to left tailwind and letting that Surge flip and glide out forever. I also like the Wraith for that, haven't tried a Surge yet.

If that is really true (the 550' part) that makes me want to break the big 5 hundred mark with my side arm. I just reached 550 this weekend with my 360 backhand (Won a distance competition in Oregon). I threw a T-Rex forehand and it measured 469 on the goggles (range-finder goggles that is).

I started as a forehand player and learned to throw backhand later. From my experience orcs are a great forehand disc. I usually throw a heavier one than I would at the same distance for a backhand throw. The more power I put into the shot the more overstable the disc I will throw. I sell a lot of used discs and some of the most popular ones amongst the forehand throwers I've met are orcs, talons, banshee's, and reapers.

Scott Stokely's official sidearm worldrecord is 541 feet with an X-clone....if Surge's were around he would have easily eclipsed 600'

What is interesting to me is, for how many times I've seen Geoff LAUNCH forehands (I mean CRUSH) I've never seen him enter any official distance competition. If the World FH record is 541, I don't see why Geoff "The King" Bennett doesn't go for it and really become "The King" of something.

(this is exactly what I need to do, tick off the 1000 rated guy a few days before I go to the course against him in open in an unsanctioned haha)

Ya I've seen many people throw very, very far sidearms, and I hear people say that they have seen Geoff and others throw 550 and such but I'll believe when it happens on a measured throw...not from the distance from a tee sign on a course. Lets see anyone pick up an X-Clone or X-2 and consistently throw it over 500'

I usually throw 175 Wraiths or Blurrs for forehands (325-350')

Would a destroyer work the same way or better?

I throw about 400-425' max D with my sidearm and I am consistently getting about 15-30 more feet with a Destroyer...there are a little faster and a little more stable than a Wraith....I'm not sure about a Blurr

I used to use the blurr for my max d sidearm and the destroyers are much longer.

Thanks! I figured, but hadn't found the right angle with the destroyer. Too much work to get out and just throw. I'll have to fix that tomorrow.

I think I only have about 330 sidearm

Scott Stokely's official sidearm worldrecord is 541 feet with an X-clone....if Surge's were around he would have easily eclipsed 600'



do they keep records for all types of throws like bh rollers, thumbers etc?

I know they do for rollers...from what I understand I don't think an official WFDF record has been set with an overhand throw.

i think it would be pretty cool to have distance records for every type of throw... scooby, fh roller, thumbers, tomahawks, overhand throw with an epic. etc...

i've actually checked and although they will keep records of the farthest field goal throw, etc.... they 'will not track thumbers' and other specific styles. I begged/pleaded ;) and they gave it a NO.

and I agree, i think it would be awesome to track that... they did have a good excuse. If they opened it up for thumber they'd have to do a tomahawk... then the chicken wing and ever other type of throw.

i've actually checked and although they will keep records of the farthest field goal throw, etc.... they 'will not track thumbers' and other specific styles. I begged/pleaded ;) and they gave it a NO.

and I agree, i think it would be awesome to track that... they did have a good excuse. If they opened it up for thumber they'd have to do a tomahawk... then the chicken wing and ever other type of throw.



so what?

you asked.... i agreed &amp; answered

is the so what about them having to track all types of throws?

I think the "so what" was in reference to the fact that they did not want to track multiple styles. At least thats how I took it :D

I have been playing for about 3 years and, with the exception of the first round I ever played, I am strictly a sidearm thrower. At first I threw with two fingers (both in the rim of the disc) but a little over a year ago I switched to the 1-finger throwing style. Flat footed with no run/walk up I can throw about 350', I now sometimes take a slow, three-step approach that gets me a little more distance. For pure distance I have had the most success with TeeRex's. At first I would throw Wraiths in no wind and TRex's when windy but decided to go with the TRex and not worry about the wind. I have the best success with Star/CFR TRexs in the 169-171g range for a combination of control/distance. In windier situations I will throw Max weight. Other discs I use are basically the same as what numerous other people have mentioned : Firebirds, Teebirds, Banshees and Max's. One other good control/distance sidearm disc I would add is milleniums QOLF. For me, they are between a Teebird &amp; a TeeRex and have become one of my favorite discs. I think that what disc works best varies with subtle differences in players technique/arm speed/release. I know many people throw vikings but I can not control them with any consistency. I think that the biggest advantage to me throwing sidearm is tight wooded courses. I find myself getting killed on Open courses ( This could be because my putting sucks!) but being very competetive in tight wooded areas. Haven't given the destroyer much of a change yet.

esp surges, and crushes. great grip for the amount of torque involved, and a great wide rim makes them real comfortable. predictable and stable enough for most side arm throwers. predators and tsunamis for more stability with the same wide rim, or a destroyer if you have the arm.

Since sidearm shots generate more spin on the disc, you have to throw a higher speed driver to keep it from turning over to hard. I am a predominately sidearm thrower, and I have a lot of snap in my sidearm shot. This is why I throw drivers that are speed 10 or higher, which includes mostly Wraiths and Destroyers. These discs give me an incredible amount of easy hyzer distance when I need it, but that's not how you get maximum distance. If you are looking for getting the most distance possible, throw a Valkyrie, Beast, or Sidewinder to get a good S-curve plus tons of glide. Putting a big S-curve on one of those discs is the only way I can sidearm a disc 400 feet.

Forehand shots generate less spin and more snap. That is the reason faster more stable discs work better for forehand. Slower, less stable discs fly better with more spin. I throw forehand 90% of the time.

What is the difference between "spin" and "snap", Rich? For me those terms are pretty much synonymous. I mostly define three different things when talking about throwing: snap, speed, angle.

Well I would say that spin is how fast it is spinning and snap how hard it is thrown. Maybe a little hard to explain but you know the difference, consider a freestyle throw a ton of spin but very little snap.......

...is quite amazing how much power there is in a sidearm delivery in such a small motion. But, putting it all into perspective: Stokely could 'only' throw 541' SA...and nearly 700' BH.

...is quite amazing how much power there is in a sidearm delivery in such a small motion. But, putting it all into perspective: Stokely could 'only' throw 541' SA...and nearly 700' BH.



That's why when I'm asked, I tell people that forehand is nearly pure power and backhand is nearly pure finesse. Really big distances backhand and forehand have elements of both, just opposing percentages.

Totally agree. If a backhanded throw generated more speed/power, then every pitcher in major league baseball would be pitching backhand.

The forehand/sidearm has the potential for greater speed because the throwing lever is longer; that is, the distance from my front (left) toe to the tip of the index finger on my throwing (right) hand is longer than the distance from right toe to right index finger. Longer levers translate to greater power. However, you sacrifice spin on the disc because the last lever in the kinetic chain, your wrist, has to work counter to the power. In the backhand, nearly all your rotational "whip" power is imparted to the disc spin.

I throw Flicks and Firebirds for long S-curve distance drives and Surges and Wraiths for straighter flights. My throwing technique dosen't favor anything less stable. Beasts and Valks flip over for me.

In the backhand, nearly all your rotational "whip" power is imparted to the disc spin.



Did somebody say "whip"? :D

Quote from Koski: "Forehand shots generate less spin and more snap. That is the reason faster more stable discs work better for forehand. Slower, less stable discs fly better with more spin. I throw forehand 90% of the time. "

I thought that sidearm has more spin? In my experience with the sidearm, more spin is put on the disc allowing the thrower to use less stable plastic with more control. As far as snap goes, I think our terminology may differ - to me, "snap" or "snapping the wrist" is what imparts that high spin onto the disc. I'm not trying to bash your forehand technique here, but it seems to me that players with slight flaws in the sidearm rely on overstable plastic to compensate for their lack of spin. I'm sure you have got it dialed, but I wouldn't say your particular throwing style is at the heart of good sidearm technique. Again, not trying to take anything away from your game, but I think there are "pure" sidearm throwers out there that would disagree with your anlysis. If you want to test my theory, try throwing an Aviar on a slight hyzer, progesively farther each time. If you focus on the wrist action and slow down your arm speed, you'll find that you can get the Aviar some pretty descent distance and it will hold the hyzer.

Peace,
Whip

Ron basically just said what I was about to: You differentiate snap and spin, but how do you impart a lot of spin upon a disc? With a firmer snap of your wrist. Thats where your terminology confused me and why I use "speed" as the term opposite "snap."

Not bashing your technique, just trying to figure out the terminology you're using. :)

I thought that sidearm has more spin? In my experience with the sidearm, more spin is put on the disc allowing the thrower to use less stable plastic with more control. As far as snap goes, I think our terminology may differ - to me, "snap" or "snapping the wrist" is what imparts that high spin onto the disc. I'm not trying to bash your forehand technique here, but it seems to me that players with slight flaws in the sidearm rely on overstable plastic to compensate for their lack of spin. I'm sure you have got it dialed, but I wouldn't say your particular throwing style is at the heart of good sidearm technique. Again, not trying to take anything away from your game, but I think there are "pure" sidearm throwers out there that would disagree with your anlysis. If you want to test my theory, try throwing an Aviar on a slight hyzer, progesively farther each time. If you focus on the wrist action and slow down your arm speed, you'll find that you can get the Aviar some pretty descent distance and it will hold the hyzer.

Peace,
Whip



I agree and would go further saying that a good sidearm thrower (with enough spin)can throw exactly the same discs backhand or sidearm. Of course they would need a backhand. There are many sidearm throwers who do not impart enough spin on their throws, and do not have good enough nose control to avoid pulling the nose down too far, (doesn't happen with a backhand), that therefore have to throw overstable discs. Rich is not wrong about the less spin on a sidearm thing for many players though. Just that there are others out there that have plently of spin and therefore can throw any disc they want.

I definitely agree that you should be able to throw anything in your bag sidearm. I've done the same thing to develop my Sidearm that I did to develop my backhand: I pulled out the LEAST stable plastic in my bag and used it for full rounds. Throwing a few full rounds sidearm with a 169 Roadrunner will develop levels of finesse that you didn't think you had before with the throw.

I've noticed most newer players that start out as, primarily, sidearm throwers tend to gravitate immediately toward Monsters, Predators, etc... but I really think that, like backhand, you should give them less stable plastic to learn control with the throw, the same as backhand.

Players that throw forehand all of the time have a lot of shots in their bag just like backhand throwers. You can't get a player rating of 990 throwing forehand and have an average putt without knowing something about disc nuances. I get a little annoyed when people say, "you don't throw forehand correctly if you can't throw any disc forehand." This is of course a load of manure. It's like saying to a strickly backhand thrower, " You should be able to turn-over any disc in your bag or you should be able to putt the same with any disc. Rubbish. Why can backhand throwers carry 20 discs without criticism (some being better for some shots than others) but forehand throwers should play by a different standard. I can throw any disc in my bag forehand but I carry 18 discs for a reason. I fully understand their differences and I always know the right disc for the throw. Sure I can throw a Sidewinder 350' forehand but I can't be sure that an understable disc is going to go left or right. A Star Wraith will usually finish right. But I can throw a Flick 350' and it will always finish right ... unless I force it to do otherwise. I'm sure a pro ball golfer can hit a 9 iron 225 yards if he closes the club face and swings out of his shoes but what's the point? Why take a chance on hitting it short or pulling it because of overswinging? If you have a better tool for the job you should use it...period.

I'm not saying that if you can't throw any disc with it then you can't throw it properly. What I was saying is that learning to control less stable plastic makes the learning curve far easier for beginners in the long run.

Too many start out with a Monster/Firebird/Predator/Spirit because it is easier to just power the [censored] out of a forehand and let the rest sort out at the end for a beginner. I was like that myself.

I've got a friend I just started using a Valkyrie and his Buzzz for his forehand and it is coming along with far faster than mine ever did because he's learning early how to actually control the throw instead of just powering the [censored] out of it.

Now do you get what I meant? I definitely did NOT mean to say that you didn't know how to throw it properly and I apologize if it came off that way.


-Chris.

Rich, throwing a sidearm does not necessarily mean more spin. by the same principle, it doesn't mean you're putting more snap into the throw either. spin has nothing to do with what type of shot you throw! if you put a little extra snap into a backhand, you can put more spin on it than a sidearm that you snap less. i think you might have been trying to say that snapping creates more spin, and that sidearm shots GENERALLY have more spin on them. hopefully that helps sort that issue out

I'm not saying that if you can't throw any disc with it then you can't throw it properly. What I was saying is that learning to control less stable plastic makes the learning curve far easier for beginners in the long run.

Too many start out with a Monster/Firebird/Predator/Spirit because it is easier to just power the [censored] out of a forehand and let the rest sort out at the end for a beginner. I was like that myself.

I've got a friend I just started using a Valkyrie and his Buzzz for his forehand and it is coming along with far faster than mine ever did because he's learning early how to actually control the throw instead of just powering the [censored] out of it.

Now do you get what I meant? I definitely did NOT mean to say that you didn't know how to throw it properly and I apologize if it came off that way.



What I wrote wasn't a direct response to what you wrote. I just read it all the time on these boards. As though forehand is just another single shot in your bag when in my case there are easily 10 (perhaps more) variations to my forehand shots factoring type of disc, shape of shot and relative distance.
I typically recommend a Champ Eagle for beginners throwing forehand. It's not crazy fast, not crazy overstable, no crazy skip and pretty darn predictable.

Rich, throwing a sidearm does not necessarily mean more spin. by the same principle, it doesn't mean you're putting more snap into the throw either. spin has nothing to do with what type of shot you throw! if you put a little extra snap into a backhand, you can put more spin on it than a sidearm that you snap less. i think you might have been trying to say that snapping creates more spin, and that sidearm shots GENERALLY have more spin on them. hopefully that helps sort that issue out



I think you misread my posts. I said that forehand has less spin not more. Read tailwindtoe's post he explains it pretty well.

Sure I can throw a Sidewinder 350' forehand but I can't be sure that an understable disc is going to go left or right. A Star Wraith will usually finish right. But I can throw a Flick 350' and it will always finish right ... unless I force it to do otherwise.



Theres nothing wrong with carrying different molds to do different jobs. I haven't seen many of those posts you are refering to as well, the ones that bash a sidearm for being one-dimensional (and I agree with the fact that the sidearm is multi-functional). But I do think it is ok to judge a persons technique by the result of which a disc flies, especially if it is contradictory of the inteded flight path. For instance, I throw Firebirds flat for a long strait path than a hard dive right, but I know plenty of folks who throw them all wobbly and the end up flipping - mostly due to a flaw in their technique. A properly thrown Firebird will not turnover (unless its beat to hell).

Here is an example that doesn't really fit this thread, but it has its applications:

I was playing a par three golf course with Nate who had very little ball golf experience. I on the other hand am a decent ball striker and I expected to fare better than him on the course. Whenever he was 10-20 yards off the green, he would take out his putter and crush an ugly top spin onto the green. It worked better than my chiping ability at the time but was competly against the design of a putter at that distance. He scored better than me, but to this day I claim that I "out-skilled" him by using the clubs the way they were inteded.

So, like I said - I think it is fair to judge someone by the way they use their tools even if the results may imply skilllful execution. But now I'm just rambling on...

I'd say you were "out-skilled" b/c you got beat

he used bad technique to out-skill you....same as a wobbly sidearm that lands next to the basket...it just doesn't look as pretty

Its all the result...Function over form....its not a beauty contest...now thats some rambling

yeah...I got beat by the chipless wonder...thats true.

I can appreciate the argument of Function over Form, but in my experiencec good form leads to better execution and consistency - so in the long run, form equals function :)

true.....spoken like a true martial artist!

Tai Chi for 6 years and Kempo for another 5...its all about form son!!

Kenpo

Ed Parker Kenpo System?

Geary's Shaolin Kenpo

What an interesting thread... So many different opinions. :)

I use my sidearm on ~half my throws and love overstable discs. I can pump a SA about 400' with a soft anhyzer. TeeRex's, Wraiths and Destroyers are good until they break in. Firebirds are always good.

I really like SA shots when I can not run-up or when I'm on a hillside.
I had troubles with my elbow hurting after too many SA shots, but that went away.

I run up on the pad, but hip rotation is essential. Also, imagine how the disc will leave your hand, then throw it.

Good luck. :D