Could someone help me answer this question? Is there a limitation to the distance of an OB line from a pin placement? Is there a minimum space allowance? Thanks!

No, there is not.

Harold has it within a few feet of Hole #6 on Wintrop Gold. Houck had it within 15' of a hole in San Saba. Hyzer creek has a basket in the middle of an OB creek.

While these examples do exist, they are on special courses or meant for special tournaments.

Primarily, make sure any OB near a hole or not is very easy to recognise and try to avoid from the tee box/previous landing area.

No rules preventing the placement of an OB area but I would use 2 guidelines, K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid) and common sense (is it fair, does it make the hole better, does it reward or punish a good shot?). Also if this is for a tournament, as long as everyone knows about it before the event and they all have to play it the same, then it should not really cause any issues.

No, it boils down to whether the landing area is fair enough for players to see the challenge and make the shot safely. The closest OB I've seen in competition is the pin 5 feet from water on Winthrop #6 in the sand. It seems tolerable for Gold level competition (closer than I would prefer) but would be too close for a day-to-day public course.

Some designers would prefer no OB in the 10m circle. If you're going to encroach closer than 10m, then better to do it on the front side of the basket rather than the back side. Discs have to come toward the target at basket height to have a chance to go in and need more landing area behind it than in front of it. As a designer, I'm personally not comfortable with OB any closer than 15 feet on the front side and rarely less than 30 on the other sides.

Consideration should also be given to not having OB so close that the lie after OB is a drop-in, which rather dilutes the OB penalty.

On our gold configuration, we will have one hole with a very tight OB around a basket.

The fairway route is a left hook towards the pin. If you are facing the pin via the fairway route, there is no OB in front, an OB creek 10ft to the left, OB line 10ft behind, and 25ft to the right.

From the tee pad there is a different orientation as the creek is in between the tee and the pin. We are still working on tweaking this hole as I am unsure how the risk/reward will play out. And how the closeness of the OB's will affect putts back. The pin is rather unreachable from the tee, as it will require a pin point skip shot, or a 400ft effective length hyzer shot over 50ft high trees. But I am thinking the April winds will prevent smart players from taking the high hyzer shot over the trees. But with an ideal tee shot, the players are looking at a 100-150ft RHBH hyzer shot to the green. So in designing for that shot, I do not feel the green is too small. At that distance, Gold players should be able to put the disc inside 10ft easily. Keyword = should.

The hole will be used for tournament play. The hole is surrounded on three sides by a canal with low water in it but it drops of sharp on the left and right sides, the back slopes off more gently. Where the basket is now, only the left side OB comes in to play. I have cleared some debris behind the hole as before clearing, players were able to blow by the basket and have a short come back putt (10-15ft). Now that the debris is gone, I have about 50 to 60 more feet to work with and would like to bring the basket back into the space increasing the difficulty of the hole. The basket will likely be hung and there will be approxiamtely 20 feet ,and more in some directions, from the basket to the OB line. Can you see what I am describing?

Consideration should also be given to not having OB so close that the lie after OB is a drop-in, which rather dilutes the OB penalty.



The TD could always declare that last place in bounds is not an option and add a drop zone at about 50' shooting directly at the OB. Or three times from the tee before you more to the drop zone ala #17 at the USDGC.

Just one thing that is a pet peeve of mine...this is not a rule, nor a standard, nor any such thing, but a plea to course designers.

If for some reason you succumb to an urge to have a hole on which the approach to the green is blind from the tee and there is OB close to the basket, especially if it is less than 10 meters from pin to OB line, please invest in a tee sign with a depiction that gives an accurate impression of the shape of the fairway. I'd recommend you even indicate the distance to OB where it comes closest to the pin.

Just one thing that is a pet peeve of mine...this is not a rule, nor a standard, nor any such thing, but a plea to course designers.

If for some reason you succumb to an urge to have a hole on which the approach to the green is blind from the tee and there is OB close to the basket, especially if it is less than 10 meters from pin to OB line, please invest in a tee sign with a depiction that gives an accurate impression of the shape of the fairway. I'd recommend you even indicate the distance to OB where it comes closest to the pin.



/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Played course's like that where the OB line is less than 5 meters from the pin.

Just one thing that is a pet peeve of mine...this is not a rule, nor a standard, nor any such thing, but a plea to course designers.

If for some reason you succumb to an urge to have a hole on which the approach to the green is blind from the tee and there is OB close to the basket, especially if it is less than 10 meters from pin to OB line, please invest in a tee sign with a depiction that gives an accurate impression of the shape of the fairway. I'd recommend you even indicate the distance to OB where it comes closest to the pin.



/msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif Played course's like that where the OB line is less than 5 meters from the pin.



YUCK!

I just watched this video of a tournament in California.

http://www.theunion.com/article/20060507/WEBEXCLUSIVE/60506001/-1/NEWS

Look for the link in the lower right under MULTIMEDIA FEATURES: "Disc gold tournament at Western Gateway Park - May 6, 2006"

About halfway through, there is a polehole with a moat surrounding. From a course design standpoint and for beauty and aesthetics, this one of the coolest things I've ever seen. But with regards to fairness of play, this is exactly the type of thing that should be avoided, imo. Sure enough, the next shot is of a player throwing a putt, hitting the basket, and rolling down into the drink. Assuming the next shot is a drop-in, that's two additional strokes added to the scorecard for a missed putt. That is too penal.

I love that hole it is one of my favorite holes I have birded it before and I have taken a 6 too.

That is too penal.



I haven't watched the video yet, but I'd think it depends on more than just a moat around a small green area. How long is the hole? How wide is the moat? How big is the green?
How deep is the ocean? How high is the sky?

oops...sorry, too much jazz lately...

If the hole is 400' through trees, maybe. If the moat is more than 30' wide, maybe. If the green is only a few feet , maybe. But, f'rinstance, one of the holes considered lots of fun here in KC is #2 at Prairie Center (http://www.playdg.com/prairiecenter/?h=2) with the pin on the island, to the left (click on 'show target'). It's not really long, even though a long pad has been added since the evaluation was done, and it's easily driveable to the island, but it's a bit touchy to get a drive to stick. It's also easy to lay up short of the road and either try a birdie putt or take an upshot. This, to me, is fair as well as fun. Risk vs reward.

It sounds like the Western Gateway hole is similar, allowing that the moat becomes the road at Prairie Center.

I'll watch the video now!

--steve

I LIKE IT! It's impossible to tell how long the hole is, but that's certainly in my realm of fair from what the video shows. If it's birdieable, then the guy who hit the basket and went into the drink is just SOL for that round.
I guess I should add...IF it's easy to retrieve a disc, it's fair. The post-OB shot is essentially a drop-in, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Cool hole! Is there a website for the course? It doesn't seem to be in the Course Directory.

my opinion, FWIW
steve

Being a lefty it is about a 260 - 270 foot s shot to the waters edge. Then it is about 20 feet across the moat. The putting area is about 15 feet around the basket.

Sean, that hole is one of my favorites in NorCal, although the basket and OB is not blind. That hole at Prarie center is cool too, one of the funnest on that course, yet it is not blind (Dale from OK aced at Worlds). World Doubles in San Saba had a lot of holes on the big open course that were blind basket/blind OB. If you had not played the hole previously, your SOL. Long holes that are too long to walk out and inspect (at least within thirty seconds). Locals won World Advanced Doubles last year and the strokes lost on blind OBs/blind baskets easily account for their lead in the end. Blind basket/blind OB is not reasonably fair tournament play and is an indication of poor course design in my opinion.

I have no problem with close OB to baskets and tiny landing zones.

As long as it was easily indicated by a course map, or tee sign.

I really do not remember too much blind pins with blind OB's in San Saba last year. There were some pins that were really close to OB. But nothing that I would consider too close or too blind.

There were a few local routes on a few holes but from where we were sitting, they were not that advantageous vs the "designed" routes.

I loved the CR2 courses, and next to Idlewild, are some of the best and best designed courses I have ever played. I really enjoy the high risk shots and decisions that have to be made.

Hooray!

People are agreeing with me.