Hey all,

I was practicing down in BG this past week and the wind was, well, everpresent. I found that pretty much everything I was throwing was flipping into a headwind. For distance, I was throwing Star Wraiths.

This may not be a stupendously amazing fact but that I have seen many other people throw Pro Wraiths into a fair headwind and it keep a hyzer angle. As well, I've seen some guys throw Z-Buzz's into a 10+ mph headwind with a *very* slight hyzer and it NOT flip! :confused:

I think that according to some of Blake's other articles, it must be the spin vs speed relationship is great enough for the throws that don't flip. My one and only question is: How do I get more spin?

Daniel

PS--I consistently throw 400' and use the modified stack grip.

Buy a hand gyro from ultimate gyro :)

Wraiths are not very good discs for high winds.

But you could also suffer from a problem that I have as well.

Breaking your wrist.

It actually causes the disc to be overtourqed with too much spin.

The only thing I have been able to do is conciously think about not breaking my wrist. I am discovering that a lot more of my discs are more stable then I had initially thought.

Last year during the first day, which was really windy and during my practice rounds before the event I was throwing a lot of Firebirds.

For now, as a short term fix, compensate with heavier more stable discs. For the long term figure out if you are breaking your wrist. Because you need a lot of spin on a disc if you are actually throwing over 400ft.

are all your discs flipping or just wraiths?

the majority of the time people flip discs over is due to off-axis torque more than spin. spin plays a very small part in it and adding a lot of it will have little noticeable effect on behavior into the wind.

my advice is to work on a cleaner throw first, with a focus on keeping the forearm and shoulder rotation on the same plane as the angle of the disc.

It actually causes the disc to be overtourqed with too much spin.




Too much spin? Lots of spin doesn't flip a disc. The spin of the disc really only makes the disc hold the angle from time of release. Speed (with an insufficent amount of spin) is what flips discs.

It actually causes the disc to be overtourqed with too much spin.




Too much spin? Lots of spin doesn't flip a disc. The spin of the disc really only makes the disc hold the angle from time of release. Speed (with an insufficent amount of spin) is what flips discs.



:o

"Stands corrected" :(

So you guys are saying that the more spin you put on a disc (with the same amount of speed), the LESS the disc turns over?

That's pretty interesting, if it is correct. How could we test such a theory? I can't very well throw a disc with less spin and the same amount of speed.

I can throw an understable disc a long way, even into a headwind. I always acconted it to the hyzer angle I give it. I do get my distance in a non-typical way. I have low arm speed being both short and small, but I generate tons of spin using a 3 finger grip, pinching the very outside rim of the disc. I find the technique ideal over power helixes in both distance and especially control.

Is it the extra spin that's keeping my shots from flipping over, or just a pure (no wobble forces applied) hyzer release?

The way i have heard it explained, and found true to experience, is that spin -- especially a lot of spin -- tends to keep the disc on the angle it is released at. so a lot of spin with a hyzer release angle inclines the disc to stay hyzered. a lot of spin into an anhyzer release angle inclines the disc to stay anhyzered. if you want to hyzer a flippy disc you almost have to release it with hyzer and give it a ton of spin (or even if you want to just delay how quickly it flips) if you want to anhyzer an overstable disc you almost have to give it a lot of spin with an anhyzer release. (or you can roll your wrist over and use a lot of off-axis torque). speed will flip a disc; spin will tend to cause a disc to hold at a given angle.

that's my take on it. let me know if i am missing something ...

You're kinda right about spin and stability and speed. Yes, more spin causes a disc to be more stable......

Here is the full explanation:

A disc with some amount of spin and some amount of speed is flying towards a target. As the disc spins, the side spinning towards the direction of motion is traveling faster relative to the air than the side spinning away from the direction of motion. This causes more lift on that side. That lift is proportional to the spin and the speed. Speed is much easier to increase than spin, in respect to turning a disc over. As you get more spin, you get more lift AND more gyroscopic stability, while as you increase the speed, you only increase the lifts. I don't feel like solving fluid dynamics of a rotating disc in my spare time, so I won't show if a discs gyroscopic stability increases faster than it's gyroscopic lift.

(yes, I have 5 years of college physics backing this up)

depending upon the atmospheric conditions and the actual amount of spin, there is an upper bound where exceeding that number of RPM's can lead to over-rotation of the disc in such a manner that the disc will grip in the direction of the spin and cause turn. however, generating this much spin on the disc is not really conducive to most throwing techniques.

spin manipulation on the magnitude necessary for flight manipulation isn't all that applicable since you can't really add that much while still getting a lot of forward penetration.

on a 300' throw (and using the not so scientific method of watching dyed discs rotate), the majority of players have somewhere between 6 and 12 revolutions on the disc while covering that distance. i would guess if you could bring that total to more like 30, that may yield some noticeable flight change, but attempting to put 30 revolutions on the disc over that period will make breaking 300' much more difficult.

still wagering the problem is related to off-axis torque.

I'm not a night owl, which is why I haven't replied... :D

The wraith is my main driver and it is the one that is flipping into the wind. To a more limited extent, my rocs do the same thing. Blake, your off-axis torque idea seems to be close because my discs flutter, but ONLY INTO a fairly strong wind.

I've played with Dave Greenwell many times and have seen him throw a pro wraith into a decent headwind with hyzer and it NEVER flipped, never even flipped up to flat! (He is ultra smooth.)

When I compare Dave's throw and mine, my disc comes out with a lot more speed. However, his distance is not that much shorter than mine, maybe 25-35' max. This is why I thought that he would get more spin than me to keep the hyzer angle into a wind.

Thanks for the help, Blake!

Daniel

PS--I also have the problem of throwing my midranges close to the same length as my drivers...

with the comments on flutter and midranges...

i would take the guess that you a) don't get enough natural nose down and b) you are using off-axis torque to get the disc turning into a sufficient amount of nose down.

a follow up is that you should be going at least ~25% farther on average with wraiths vs. a roc when there are no height/wind/line constraints.

if you aren't getting a 25% increase, a guess is that you aren't getting enough weight forward when throwing your wraith. if your miss tendency (what happens on average when you miss a line) is to pull to the right, that would be a good indicator.

a final comment is that the wraith isn't super conducive to headwinds in excess of ~15 mph due to its tall profile and lack of natural rim stabilizers even though i would classify it as being moderately overstable. there are ways to make it fly much more high speed stable into the wind by tweaking your trajectory.

a follow up is that you should be going at least ~25% farther on average with wraiths vs. a roc when there are no height/wind/line constraints.



Not trying to get off topic, but this comment makes me feel better about my distance. When throwing for pure max-D I can push a midrange 390ft, and my high speed drivers 460. The 25% increase would actually be 490ft, but I am satisfied with the 18% increase.

But really only 6-12 revolutions on a 300ft throw? Granted you admitted to that being an nonscientific observation, but I find that really hard to believe.

I think it is a little slow as well. Based more on throwing at night with lites on the edges of the disc instead of the center. I'll have to rig up a more directional lite that can only be seen from one direction and see if tht revolutions can be counted.

keep in mind the 25% was for a roc and i should have listed "distance golf shot". other midranges will be more/less of a distance increase.

as for the rotations, most people think they have more spin than they actually have. if you have access to a disc that is dyed with a non-symmetrical line type design give it a toss and count the number of rotations.

the # of rotations varies by disc type, disc diameter, and shot length. it takes ~10-12 seconds for a roc to fly 300', but more like 5-6 seconds for a wraith.

a comparison would be to a record (for those with experiences with turntables). if the disc rotates an average of once per second over its flight that = 60 RPM. that is 33% faster than a 45 RPM record. if you power up a turntable, you will see that is pretty fast.

i've thrown a few aviar shots where i tried to put spin on the disc and was able to get ~18-22 revolutions on a 240' throw. while it gave an interesting hover/stall effect and the disc stayed in the air a long time, i can say that it wasn't really a very useful or applicable shot.

keep in mind with gyroscopics that the force vector is a line pointing downard, perpendicular to center of the flight plate.

Blake, i find it really hard to believe i have ever thrown a disc 300 feet with less than 30 rotations occuring. is it really possible to throw a disc 300 feet with only 6 rotations?

That ^ comment regarded backhand throws. As for forehands -- i can throw midranges and putters better than drivers. maybe i am geting too much spin on them and not enough thrust? (i know i am also getting the nose up and releasing with too much hyzer though...)

<<there are ways to make it fly much more high speed stable into the wind by tweaking your trajectory.>>

Could you elaborate, Blake?

About misses, I tend to miss left as a result of not gripping tight enough, I think. (I have reduced sensation in my hands that causes my grip strength to be less than normal.)

Earlier someone mentioned "breaking your wrist." Is this the same thing as rolling your wrist? If so, have you found a way through your explorations that I can practice to make sure I don't do this?

Thanks!

Daniel

I was about to argue that I saw discs thrown by regional pros spin flat once they landed on the green a full 3 to 4 revolutions.

That was on a 378ft hole, and then I realized something. If a disc is spinning 8 times on a 300ft flight, then it will spin almost 12 times on a 378ft flight. That flight would take approximately 3 seconds thrown at pro speeds. I witnessed these 3-4 revolutions take place in about a seconds worth of time.

That makes logical sense because that spin rate the disc experienced on the ground is the same as it had throughout the flight of the disc.

The guy that coaches me told me after I explained what I witnessed to him, that most properly thrown and landed discs will spin while still on the ground. I thought that it was a pro technique secret that made them exceptionally better then us advanced players until I was playing in a dewy, semi muddy field. When I got to my disc after a particular good drive, I noticed that the young damp grass was matted in a clockwise direction and that my disc had mud streaks in a perfectly circular pattern on the bottom.

It was then when I learned about good throws having a lot of spin. It just took me a while and Blakes explanation to make the connection.

Now, how I put spin on the disc....I have no idea, besides the normal path the disc takes out of my grip.

That's exactly what I want to know, Parkn...

Blake T posted: There are ways to make it fly much more high speed stable into the wind by tweaking your trajectory.

In my post from above, this is what I was referring to.

Thanks!

Daniel

That's exactly what I want to know, Parkn...

Blake T posted: There are ways to make it fly much more high speed stable into the wind by tweaking your trajectory.

In my post from above, this is what I was referring to.

Thanks!

Daniel



Yeah I know. People ask me how I can throw so far (well they consider it far because they cannot break 300ft), and I have no real answer for them besides form and technique. But at the same time I have no real idea what I am doing. I basically just try to mimic our local pros.

Sometimes I make a smart-mouth responce to their question about throwing far and reply " Duh-no, Throw Frisbee Hard".

practice throwing ultimates on long hyzer lines, its all wrist and helps with your technique.

Sometimes I make a smart-mouth responce to their question about throwing far and reply " Duh-no, Throw Frisbee Hard".



At the lumberjack open last sunday, somone on my card watched me throw a 390 footer (one of the 2 holes along the road, I think 8) asked how I threw it so far, I believe my answer was "PAT THROW DISC".

Rob,

have to take disc selection into account as well. an aviar will have at least twice the flight time of a disc such as a wraith or an orc on a 300' throw. another aspect of it if whether or not the shot was turned over or not as that will delay it in the air.

it's hard to calculate all of it since velocity and RPM's start decreasing immediately out of the hand...
but let's say an orc averages 50 MPH over 300' (on a longer throw, the average will decrease but at 300' a disc that fast should still be carrying a good head of steam on it). that average velocity coincides to 34.1 feet per second (ft/s), and coincides to 8.8 seconds worth of flight time. if the disc is flying with 60 RPM's, that will be ~9 rotations while in the air. bringing that up to say, 75 RPM's = 11 rotations. at 90 RPM's (1.5 rotations per second) = 13 rotations.

discndude:

throwing into a headwind requires less nose down than throwing in normal conditions as the wind will help press the nose down farther. pulling a hyzer to the right will expose some flight plate and make the disc fly more overstable, etc.

I think your estimate of the rotational speed is too low. (Sorry, I'm sort-of a technical type, so I had to respond.)

If you think about throwing a roller, when the disc hits the ground, it seems to pick up a little speed (not sure about this part, but bear with me), so the rotational speed on release is slightly more than the translational speed. Assume for simplicity that they are equal. Using 13" as the diameter of the disc, the circumference is C=pi*d = 40.84". On a 300 foot hole, the disc would have to rotate # = 300(ft)*12(in/ft)/40.84(in) = 88 revolutions. If it takes 8 seconds to reach the hole in the air, the revolutions per second is 88/11 = 11 revolutions per second, which would be 660 RPM.

If you think this is a little high, let's assume it takes twice as long to reach the hole rolling the entire way. It would then take 16 seconds to make 88 revolutions, which would be (88/16) = 5.5 rps or (88/16)*60 = 330 RPM.

I'd say the average rotational speed is somewhere between these values. I know when we play with the bobber lights at night it is impossible to count the revolutions because the light is spinning too fast, even at the end of the flight.

Does this seem reasonable?

Not that any of this matters...I just think too darn much sometimes!!

Boy what a bunch of analytical geeks we are.

We will spend all day trying to calculate how many times a disc is spinning per second (I think you are very close groovytoss), but none of us is able to answer the original question.

I think Pat and I were close with our cavemen like responces. :D

My guess, tighter pinch, nearer the edge of the disc.

I think your estimate of the rotational speed is too low. (Sorry, I'm sort-of a technical type, so I had to respond.)

If you think about throwing a roller, when the disc hits the ground, it seems to pick up a little speed (not sure about this part, but bear with me), so the rotational speed on release is slightly more than the translational speed. Assume for simplicity that they are equal. Using 13" as the diameter of the disc, the circumference is C=pi*d = 40.84". On a 300 foot hole, the disc would have to rotate # = 300(ft)*12(in/ft)/40.84(in) = 88 revolutions. If it takes 8 seconds to reach the hole in the air, the revolutions per second is 88/11 = 11 revolutions per second, which would be 660 RPM.

If you think this is a little high, let's assume it takes twice as long to reach the hole rolling the entire way. It would then take 16 seconds to make 88 revolutions, which would be (88/16) = 5.5 rps or (88/16)*60 = 330 RPM.

I'd say the average rotational speed is somewhere between these values. I know when we play with the bobber lights at night it is impossible to count the revolutions because the light is spinning too fast, even at the end of the flight.

Does this seem reasonable?

Not that any of this matters...I just think too darn much sometimes!!



Very reasonable. And it agrees with research we have paid to have done. Blake has been fooled by an optical illusion of tie dyed discs.

groovytoss:

good breakdown,

after doing some messing around today with some discs in my apartment, i do believe your estimates are closer to the actual RPS on launch, but i believe there will be a bit of variance based upon the disc diameter as well moderate change during flight, especially on longer throws.

I watched tye died discs from several players on a hole that requires a long, flat, fairly low drive off the tee. The point being that it required a lot of spin and speed to successfully throw the shot.

The thing that struck me as odd was that during the initial part of the flight, the disc seemed to be spinning very slowly and the picked up speed dramatically about 1/3 of the way down the fairway. Knowing that a real increase in rotational spped like this was basically impossible, I had to attribute my observations to the same effect that makes the spokes of a tire or rotors of a helicopter seem to be moving much slower than they really are or even backwards.

Different players using different techniques will show a lot of variance too, I'm sure.

As for the original question, I'd quit analyzing (I know...that's tough to do for some of us) and grab a different disc. If you throw with a consistent technique and form, different discs will perform differently. For a slight headwind try something a little more overstable than a Wraith...Maybe a Crush or TeeBird. For a stronger headwind maybe a Predator or Firebird.

I think getting more rotation is all in maximizing disc speed by using the entire body rotation (legs, hips, arm, wrist) and finally the snap on release. (I'm continually working on that, but obviously need more!)

Happy Spring! (We need a few more days of snow melting before it'll finally feel like it here.)

I'm not a night owl, which is why I haven't replied... :D

The wraith is my main driver and it is the one that is flipping into the wind. To a more limited extent, my rocs do the same thing. Blake, your off-axis torque idea seems to be close because my discs flutter, but ONLY INTO a fairly strong wind.

I've played with Dave Greenwell many times and have seen him throw a pro wraith into a decent headwind with hyzer and it NEVER flipped, never even flipped up to flat! (He is ultra smooth.)

When I compare Dave's throw and mine, my disc comes out with a lot more speed. However, his distance is not that much shorter than mine, maybe 25-35' max. This is why I thought that he would get more spin than me to keep the hyzer angle into a wind.

Thanks for the help, Blake!

Daniel

PS--I also have the problem of throwing my midranges close to the same length as my drivers...



This may already have been answered but the reason why guys who throw hard are often less successful, is because the elements of a throw, speed (how fast the disc comes out of your hand), and spin are not entirely compatible events. Dave Greenwell is a highly accomplished thrower who is able to impart great spin on his disc. so much so that he can make the fairly understable Wraith appear stable.

This description is not new (I think both Dave D and Blake T have used it) but throwing a disc is a lot like snapping a towel. I can hold a towel in my hand and move my arm very fast but unless I impart some snap on the tip of the towel, the guy on the receiving end isn't going to feel much. :) The same goes for discs, to be effective you have to snap the disc out of your hand at the end of your throw. To some extent you can make this a natural part of your throwing motion (Dave D. describes it as a natural event but I had to start out consciously imparting snap on my disc until my technique got good enough that it became a natural thing). Back to the point, the faster you pull through, the harder it is to impart that correct snap. You litterally pull through the snap part of the throw instead of snapping the disc. Of course the best throwers have just the right combination of speed and snap to get max distance.

The reality is that the most important aspect of the throw is the snap. Again, Dave Greenwell demonstrates this and he is not the only one. There are a lot of people out there who look like they float through their approach and just flick the disc out there and it goes 400 feet. On the other hand, there are a lot of guys out there who wind up, and the disc leaves their hand at 70 miles an hour, but it flutters and hits the ground at 280 to 320 feet.

For me the best way to impart snap is to slow my throw way down and keep it slow until the point where my elbow is completely bent, and then flick it out right at the end of the throw. I use what I call an inverted question mark throw (?). When I reach back the disc is at the period on the question mark. I then pull the disc on the line of the question mark towards my body. to do this, you have to bend your elbow and the disc comes in very close to your chest as your torso turns towards the target. Once I get the disc on the line where the hook on the question mark starts I bear down hard and snap the disc out as hard as I can.

The better I carry out that motion the more spin I get on the disc and the farther it flies. This is important so I will repeat it, to get that snap, you have to get the disc in on your chest, that motion puts your forearm and wrist in the proper position to impart snap on the disc. Furthermore, the speed of the initial part of the throw really impacts the stability/spin of the disc. The harder I pull at the front end, the less stability/spin (this is not entirely true, as my technique got better I could still impart good spin even with a harder pull but that was after I got the snap well ingrained. I think that when an inexperienced player pulls too hard there is a tendancy to keep the disc farther away from the body and thus miss the correct position to impart maximum snap).

This reminds me of a physics demonstration.

Go take a bycicle wheel and hold it with both hands by the axle while sitting in a swivel chair. Have someone else spin the wheel while it is upright. Then turn the wheel to the right or left. The rate of spin of the wheel has a direct relationship with the force it exerts on the holder by spinning them around in the chair.

I red everything and you said something really important.You said that your disc is at chest level?This to me is strange because when you throw into a head wind,it is impossible to release a disc that high.It will always flip over,even for Dave.I am a pro playing for more then 20 years and have a similar style as Dave.A smooth release that looks affordless.And I live in Holland close to the coast.It's always windy here!

I always extend completly to the other side(like I am chaking somebody's hand).My whole body is turned to the opposite side.But when I throw into a head wind,my arm will travel lower than my chest,with a good amount of hyzer on the disc!The release should be in a forward motion but with hyzer on it.Also don't release the disc at the end of your arm!Just somewhat before.And follow throu!You don't need a big run up either...I never do.Just accelerate and keep on doing that faster and faster but never to the point where you lose control about angle and release.

I hope this helps :)
Arthur #3791

This is a question that I know has been asked before, but I will ask it again. What disc to you like to throw into a headwind? Please don't say a Firebird-I have tried and tried with that disc and just can't do it. What does anyone suggest other than the Firebird?

Champion Starfire (not the pro Starfire which is really an SL and not a Starfire)

The Champion Starfire is great into a wind. To me it is like a faster, longer FL. If you turn regular Firebirds over into a wind though you better get a Monster instead.

what did you mean when you said a Firebird doesn't work for you. is it too overstable?

TeeRex might work too...

Predator and Blaze are also good headwind drivers.

Lyle--

So, what you are saying is to slow down the initial pull through until you come close to the point of release and then accelerate though the snap? Hmm. In doing this, did you initially give up distance? I'm going to try this in practice this afternoon! Thanks for your help!

Daniel

Anybody have any tips on keeping lots of snap on the high anhyzer line? I feel that I have the snap I need on flat and hyzer lines (my golf drive is around 380 with a decent amount of aim). But when i try to get that high anny line i seem to loose snap. I seem to experience the same problem when faced with a hole around 450ish (which i can hit every once in a great while). Maybe I'm trying too hard (read too much speed and missing my timing) and loosing my D there?

First, what are you expecting out of a head wind distance drive?

I would consider 10-15mph headwinds to be considerable enough to drastically effect the flight of your normal driver/line.

I will put down some base for my explanation and why/what drivers I use for headwind distances and what I expect out of them.


Normal Golf shots with negligent wind. <10mph

Max Weight Champ Beast - hyzerflips or turnover drives 370-420ft.
Max Weight Z-Avenger - straight/hyzer shots 370-420ft
Max Weigth Champ Wraith - Straight shots 400-460ft

These were average golf shots thrown in ideal conditions. Here is what I use for winds.

10-15mph head wind on a straight open hole negligent elevation effect.
Champ Beast - NO WAY
Z-Avenger - Sraight shots slight fade 350-400ft
Champ Wraith - 370-410ft dead straight, thrown with a lot of hyzer

Winds in excess of 15mph (sustained, not including gusts)
Beast - HA thats hilarious
Z- Avenger - Straight shots 350-370ft where turnover shots are not punished
Wraith - ummmm nope
Champ Firebird - 340-380ft little fade to the left.

I don't think you can expect the same results in head winds. Headwinds just take the long 380-450ft duece opportunities out of the picture. Just play for a solid 3 and you will gain strokes on a majority of any advanced field.

Alternatives to the Firebird are

Discraft Predator
Innova Monster
Discraft Flick
Gateway Spirit

Also throw the correct weights for your skill level. If you normally drive with a 167 Orc, then use a 167 Firebird for headwind shots. Don't jump to a 175 Firebird or you will hate it.

Hey all,

I was practicing down in BG this past week and the wind was, well, everpresent. I found that pretty much everything I was throwing was flipping into a headwind. For distance, I was throwing Star Wraiths.

This may not be a stupendously amazing fact but that I have seen many other people throw Pro Wraiths into a fair headwind and it keep a hyzer angle. As well, I've seen some guys throw Z-Buzz's into a 10+ mph headwind with a *very* slight hyzer and it NOT flip! :confused:

I think that according to some of Blake's other articles, it must be the spin vs speed relationship is great enough for the throws that don't flip. My one and only question is: How do I get more spin?

Daniel

PS--I consistently throw 400' and use the modified stack grip.



Throwing hand: Try moving your thumb closer to the center of the disc. Doing this WILL generate more spin. I throw a lot of "understable" plastic....and love hearing..."that was a Flash? Why did it fly so (over)stable?" :D

Do you find any problems getting the nose up when you move your thimb closer to the middle?

Do you find any problems getting the nose up when you move your thimb closer to the middle?




No, not really.

During his touring days, Scott Stokely pointed out to me that moving your thumb closer to the center was better for hyzers, and moving your thumb closer to the edge was better for turnover shots. I can't begin to tell you how much that advice helped me.

All these years and you never pass this on to me. I guess you were afraid I might learn to drive far :D. don't worry I still can't putt.

ce

How far from the edge (where the rim transitions to the flight plate) is your thumb? Just curious...

Daniel

Do you find any problems getting the nose up when you move your thimb closer to the middle?




No, not really.

During his touring days, Scott Stokely pointed out to me that moving your thumb closer to the center was better for hyzers, and moving your thumb closer to the edge was better for turnover shots. I can't begin to tell you how much that advice helped me.



Helps to have long fingers like Scott !!!!

How far from the edge (where the rim transitions to the flight plate) is your thumb? Just curious...

Daniel





Having large hands and/or long fingers helps.........

For anhyzer/turnover/rollers it's very close to the edge, no more than a thumb width inward. For hyzers/skips and helix shots it's 2 inches or more inward.

You'll see for yourself. You can make an understable disc more stable by simply adjusting the postition of your thumb. Thankyou Scott!!! :D

I totally endorse Lyle's comments. I have seen the results. I have watched Lyle's distance increase greatly over the last year or so while his throw looks more and more effortless.

In his walk up-reachback-begining of his pull through he looks like he intends to throw it about 100 feet then you clearly hear the snap on release and the disc flies through a classic long S profile.
We played this weekend and on one hole in particular it appeared that we threw the exact same shot. (speed, angle of release, etc.) but while my disc dropped out of the air about 310, his glided another 60 feet. That shot alone made me a believer. then three holes later he threw one of the longest throws I've seen anyone throw on that course.

It is so counter-intuitive that slowing down helps you throw farther that I have resisted trying to change even though others have told me numerous times. I used to watch other guys walk through their approaches but I convinced myself their success was because they were much taller or just freaks. But I give up, I'm hitting the soccer fields this week to work out that magical snap. It only took me 3 years to submit to the obvious.

The only thing that slowing down helps me with is hitting a certain line or hole that I must hit.

In the words of John Wooden, "Be quick, but don't hurry"

Don't know if that really applies, but I like the quote. :D

In the words of John Wooden, "Be quick, but don't hurry"

Don't know if that really applies, but I like the quote. :D



Works for me !!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I red everything and you said something really important.You said that your disc is at chest level?This to me is strange because when you throw into a head wind,it is impossible to release a disc that high.It will always flip over,even for Dave.I am a pro playing for more then 20 years and have a similar style as Dave.A smooth release that looks affordless.And I live in Holland close to the coast.It's always windy here!

I always extend completly to the other side(like I am chaking somebody's hand).My whole body is turned to the opposite side.But when I throw into a head wind,my arm will travel lower than my chest,with a good amount of hyzer on the disc!The release should be in a forward motion but with hyzer on it.Also don't release the disc at the end of your arm!Just somewhat before.And follow throu!You don't need a big run up either...I never do.Just accelerate and keep on doing that faster and faster but never to the point where you lose control about angle and release.

I hope this helps :)
Arthur #3791



In principal I agree with you. That is, what you are saying will work, many top pros release low (see Ken Climo, and Markus K.). But go read Dave Dunipace's stuff again, he doesn't make exceptions, he recommends a pull into the chest and I will go with that since he pretty much defines thinking about the correct throw. However, you can also take a look at Barry Shultz, he throws high on his chest with quite good success.

How then can you get a good flight in the wind? That is, the point you make is a good one. I might suggest a more stable disc but mainly keeping the disc low. When I find that conditions require me to drop down and throw a disc into a hyzer I simply bump up the stability and release flatter and lower. This isn't something I discoverd it is what a lot of top pros I've studied do; simply watch some worlds videos and you will see it. Why use this instead of dropping the disc down and using a hyzer? My feeling, and I admit I may be wrong, is that you get more control pulling into your chest without using tourque or wind to turn your disc up and flat.

One point though, even when I want to hyzer, I don't drop the disc down (unless I'm aiming for a spike hyzer), I pull the same line but lean more into it and drop the outer edge of the disc down. Again, by keeping a similar line I feel I have more control (at least for me).

BTW - I think that Blake just wrote a piece on the hyzer in the recent DGWN. I recommend reading it even though I don't remember what he said. I do know it will be good though. :D

My choices for wind shots start with the Monster, then go to the Firebird then the Extreme or Gateway's overstable disc, the Speed Demon. Also, the G5i, a midrange from Gateway will stay flat in a 30 mile an hour wind. I am not exagerating, getting this baby to stay straight even in a left to right wind is work. It is by far the most overstable disc ever made.

Lyle--

So, what you are saying is to slow down the initial pull through until you come close to the point of release and then accelerate though the snap? Hmm. In doing this, did you initially give up distance? I'm going to try this in practice this afternoon! Thanks for your help!

Daniel



I apologize for not getting back sooner. If you are giving up distance doing this don't be surprised. You just started! But stick with it, eventually you will add a lot. In direct answer to your question, no, I didn't give up distance. But I came at it from a different approach than you are (see below).

Remember that just before the release is from the point where you start to unbend your elbow. As you pull into your chest it is controlled but once your elbow is bent fully then your snap starts and that baby should be explosive, you should feel the disc snap out of your hand, that is your wrist snaps the disc. Now, a lot of players do a little snap that is late, even after the unbending of the elbow starts. But it is a control shot and they are aiming for 250 to 300 feet.

Theo Pozzy did a video study of top pros and he has some footage of Barry Schultz. He pulls through and it looks fast but it isn't, it's quite slow, DON'T BE FOOLED. But when you look at it, that snap at the end (when he unbends his elbow) is blazing fast and if you watch closely, you can see him snap the disc at the end of the throw.

If you want to take a crude path that you can build on. Do what I told you, pull down a line, but make sure the line you pull down is close to your body. just keeping the disc on that line will force you to put some snap on it and give you decent distance. That is how I started. It won't be as efficient or pretty but it will work. When I did this, I got my shots up to 310 to 320 feet but I wasn't satisfied. Then, I tried to slow down that front part of my throw focusing on power in the elbow unbend, believe me it helped. It took a lot of guts to slow down that front part of my throw because it felt wrong but one day I was out and snapped it out there and the disc went 380 feet like I wasn't even working. After that it was easy.

Last point, it took me a long time to get this down, two years of work but my game is seriously improved for doing it. Although my rating doesn't show it (I don't play many tournaments) my mini ratings are in the 920s to 940s, not bad for an old man. I limit out at 400 feet but my average is well over 350.

Here is one more exercize to try, I stole it from something I learned from Dave Ds writings. He wrote that you should be able to stand in with no run up and get a good throw. I was working on cleaner shots and I was standing in and I realized that to get any distance in, I had to really exaggerate the motion I'm describing. Try it. Line up on the target and reach back straight from the target. It should be easy look at the target, turn your head 180 degrees and see what is behind you, When you reach back, point at whatever was back there. Pull the disc in easy on your line and snap that forearm out there. I kind of relax it so that as my elbow unbends I am consiously pulling the disc through a little s curve in front of my chest to put snap on it. Also, while you don't have to, turning your upper torso as you do that little s curve adds power and distance, but one thing at a time.

Anybody have any tips on keeping lots of snap on the high anhyzer line? I feel that I have the snap I need on flat and hyzer lines (my golf drive is around 380 with a decent amount of aim). But when i try to get that high anny line i seem to loose snap. I seem to experience the same problem when faced with a hole around 450ish (which i can hit every once in a great while). Maybe I'm trying too hard (read too much speed and missing my timing) and loosing my D there?



I really exaggerate my snap putting as much of a wag on the disc as possible. How is your roller? If your roller is working well then translate what you are doing there back into your annie.

The only thing that slowing down helps me with is hitting a certain line or hole that I must hit.



There is no question that an accomplished thrower can pull hard through a throw and get more distance. The key here is accomplished. Slowing down has the impact of allowing you to pull on the right line. When you pull through hard it is very easy to get off the right line required for max torque. Once you experience a correct throw your body knows it and even with max pull you still get it.

However, even with a hard pull at the front, I'm betting you aren't pulling as hard intitially as you do when you unbend your elbow. Why do I say this, I've read it over and over from so many top Pros that I believe it.

In the words of John Wooden, "Be quick, but don't hurry"

Don't know if that really applies, but I like the quote. :D



I think this is an excellent quote. I think JW meant it differently but it really applies. If you hurry through that first part of your thow by the time you get to the last part you can't possibly have the kind of control it takes to get a good elbow unbend and snap out of the throw.

If you hurry through that first part of your thow by the time you get to the last part you can't possibly have the kind of control it takes to get a good elbow unbend and snap out of the throw.


This was what I was thinking. Wooden was talking about playing under control, while being quick and explosive. Which I think is what it would take to have a good throws. 'Course i'm a noodle arm....so far.

Thanks, Lyle.

What I'm looking for more than pure distance are several things:

1. To be more "technically correct" with my form.
2. To have a straight/slightly understable disc work as both a hyzer, anhyzer AND straight. (ie/ not keep going with more and more overstable plastic) For example, a TL.
3. Become a more consistent player.
4. Well, more distance would be nice ;)

Also, I remembered something that I saw Scott Stokely do when he was running his traveling clinics. He would throw his discs with hyzer and they would stay on that hyzer line for a certain percentage of their flight (1/3-1/2) and then *bam* they would flip flat, fly a little more, then turn over and S. It was very sudden, not a smooth transition. I *think* that this performance of the disc is due to the amount of spin Scott imparted on the disc as opposed to speed.

Does this happen with your throws, Lyle? (Assuming, of course, when you have good form on your throw?) This is one of the things I'm working toward.

I've been told that my "armspeed" was excellent. I guess that I need to just simply work on my snap. (My grip strength may be part of the problem--I have some nerve damage in my hands that causes a loss of grip strength...)

Someone mentioned a while back to practice with ultimate discs thrown on a continual hyzer line to get more snap (and more spin, I guess) in your throws. I just picked some up in BG last weekend so I'll report back when I've had the chance to try it... :)

Thanks!

Daniel

Thanks, Lyle.

What I'm looking for more than pure distance are several things:

1. To be more "technically correct" with my form.
2. To have a straight/slightly understable disc work as both a hyzer, anhyzer AND straight. (ie/ not keep going with more and more overstable plastic) For example, a TL.
3. Become a more consistent player.
4. Well, more distance would be nice ;)

Also, I remembered something that I saw Scott Stokely do when he was running his traveling clinics. He would throw his discs with hyzer and they would stay on that hyzer line for a certain percentage of their flight (1/3-1/2) and then *bam* they would flip flat, fly a little more, then turn over and S. It was very sudden, not a smooth transition. I *think* that this performance of the disc is due to the amount of spin Scott imparted on the disc as opposed to speed.

Does this happen with your throws, Lyle? (Assuming, of course, when you have good form on your throw?) This is one of the things I'm working toward.

I've been told that my "armspeed" was excellent. I guess that I need to just simply work on my snap. (My grip strength may be part of the problem--I have some nerve damage in my hands that causes a loss of grip strength...)

Someone mentioned a while back to practice with ultimate discs thrown on a continual hyzer line to get more snap (and more spin, I guess) in your throws. I just picked some up in BG last weekend so I'll report back when I've had the chance to try it... :)

Thanks!

Daniel



Yes, I see this flip but with the newer high tech discs you see it much less than of old. Take a look at the top Pros throwing and you will see it a little, but not much. I believe this is because they just aren't out there honking that disc as far as it can go. Personally, I hate it when I flip; I want my discs flying down a line not flipping up. Consistency is the key to winning, not distance. Ken Climo rarely throws over 380, he doesn't need to because he can put his disc on a dime.

I was out with Jim Davidson this weekend and he rarely flips and yet has a monster throw. Think about the logistics of throwing an annie. If you have a line you want to throw and the disc does a flip how accurate can your shot be? My advice is worry less about that flip and more about getting accuracy with your distance.

Here's a perspecitve for you, on everything up to 320 feet I use a Cobra. If you try and flip it you will turn it over. I throw it smooth and flat, low arm speed pwerful flick at the end.

Last Point - What is arm speed? How could you even tell if someone had good arm speed with out a fast motion camera? At the speeds we're throwing you couldn't tell the difference for the most part. I know that a lot of people comment on the speed of Rico and the Jarvis brothers and they do look fast but what are we really looking at? Worry less about arm speed and more about that final flick. My feeling is that arm speed makes you pull to hard at the start, i.e. your focus is wrong. Here is someone to look at. Juliana Korver. she looks positively slow, yet she has good distance and throws very accurately. Even better is Walter Haney.

http://www.usdgc.com/media/video/

He walks up slow and snaps the disc very powerfully. Too sweet.

the editor froze on me. I meant to say on Walter's third throw, he walks up slow. But even on earlier throws, you can see, Walter is very slow up to the point he snaps the disc out. You don't need to be fast.

BTW - go through the videos on this site, I learned more from watching videos than I do out messing around.

What I was trying to say about arm speed is my pull through speed. I've always been fairly fast. However, I now see that the snap is the most important part to focus on. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I watched a video a few weeks ago of Nate Doss and I noticed the same thing with Walt Haney and Julianna--they all have just a very slight "pause" at the farthest reach back point.

You know, now that I think about it, my approach/short game has really improved, mainly because I have adopted the above as my throwing style. On reflect, when I don't "try" to power an upshot with a midrange (roc), they go straight and flat with very little fade, even into a strong headwind. My problem is in translating this into my driving game. :confused: This is what I was meaning when I was asking about losing distance initially.

What I was trying to say about arm speed is my pull through speed. I've always been fairly fast. However, I now see that the snap is the most important part to focus on. /msgboard/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I watched a video a few weeks ago of Nate Doss and I noticed the same thing with Walt Haney and Julianna--they all have just a very slight "pause" at the farthest reach back point.

You know, now that I think about it, my approach/short game has really improved, mainly because I have adopted the above as my throwing style. On reflect, when I don't "try" to power an upshot with a midrange (roc), they go straight and flat with very little fade, even into a strong headwind. My problem is in translating this into my driving game. :confused: This is what I was meaning when I was asking about losing distance initially.



Your golden. Believe it or not, the only thing holding you back at this stage is fear. How do I know this, because you're right where I was when I made my break through. It takes a lot to throw a driver like you throw your midrange but do it! If your midrange is working like it sounds you'll be shocked at what you'll get out of a driver doing exactly the same thing. It's funny but when you pick up that driver, no matter how hard you try, throwing the same way you throw your midrange just doesn't quite happen. You always try just a little harder. Don't do it, don't think about it, just throw that driver just like you threw that midrange. Once you have that down you will add distance just by using the same exact motion and speed with more pop at the end. I discovered how to throw a midrange correctly three years before I learned how to throw that driver. I could just kick myself...