Situation: pond is OB. Upshot goes into water, can't be retrieved.
Dilemma: Is it a lost disc or OB? Play from last lie or from last point in bounds?

thanks!

steve

It's right in the rulebook under OB and under the 800 Definitions listing for OB.

you can check the 2006 online rulebook right here (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php)


from 803.09 Out-of-Bounds paragraph A:
In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B



btw, the online Rules front page (http://www.pdga.com/rules/index.php) still shows a picture of the old rulebook cover, not the new 2006 cover.
Could that get updated so as not to cause any confusion over whether the online Rules are up-to-date?

I have the new rulebook in hard copy, and the answer really isn't clear. This isn't an either/or situation, it's BOTH. Which takes priority? It's very obvious that the disc went OB. It also was not retrievable.
Which is priority? This situation is not specifically addressed in the rules, they don't refer to each other except the "reasonable evidence". The reasonable evidence exists for both OB and lost.

if there is reasonable evidence the disc landed in a specific OB area -- OB trumps lost disc (if for example the OB area is a murky pond or muddy creek)


from 803.09 Out-of-Bounds paragraph A:
In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of such evidence, the disc will be considered lost and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B

There is no reasonable evidence for "lost Disc". The reasonable evidence part only comes into play when a lost disc may be also be OB. If you read 803.09.A, OB clearly is decided prior to consideration of "lost". <font color="blue"> The first part defines the requirement for OB.</font><font color="green"> The second part explains how the situation is handled if the first part is not true.</font>


...In order to consider the disc as out-of-bounds, <font color="blue">there must be reasonable evidence that the disc came to rest within the out-of-bounds area</font>. In the absence of such evidence, <font color="green">the disc will be considered lost</font> and the player will proceed according to rule 803.11B.

exactly the description for the pond. Thanks! That was my thought, and actually how we played it.

:if there is reasonable evidence the disc landed in a specific OB area -- OB trumps lost disc

Now, if a disc is lost, possibly over OB territory, after passing a mandatory on the wrong side, how is it played ?

but there's no hard evidence of the disc being OB? :confused: ;)
I'm no rules expert, but

803.12.E. A throw that misses a mandatory shall be penalized and the lie marked according to the mandatory rule (803.12). It will not be further penalized for any other reason, such as out-of-bounds or above two meters.

whether or not it is OB doesn't matter because the missed Mando trumps any other potential penalties

No need for "hard" evidence to declare a disc OB if not found and thought to have crossesd into OB territory....

That being said , you sited the correct rule on Gary's question though.

I beleive Gary was showing you how one rule can trump another with his question. Good job, amazing how many poeple would actually look past the missing of the mando in this situation.

That's what I get as well.

I did have a new thought on why.

First the disc missed the Mandatory.

Even if it is in the air (or rolling) over OB territory when it passed the Mandatory, it was not OB. The reasoning is that the disc is not OB until it is at rest completely surrounded by or suspended above OB territory. Secondly it is not lost until it has been searched for unsuccessfully for 3 minutes. With the new wording of the Mandatory rule, where the disc comes to rest is no longer an issue, so as soon as the disc passed the mandatory on the wrong side, the only applicable penalty was the missed mandatory.