gdstour
Feb 17 2006, 02:56 AM
Should Yellow ropes and triple mandos be used for NT and A-Tier Events?

dave_marchant
Feb 17 2006, 07:42 AM
Should man-made gimmicks and contrived/artificial absurdities be used in PGA events?

Ponds, trees, terrain on greens, sandtraps and lawnmowers determining the length of the rough are just as gimmicky as yellow ropes and triple mando's. They are within budget for the PGA, but not for us.

If we want spectator and TV camera friendly courses for use in our largest events (an absolute necessity if we want sponsorship to grow) we need to use all the tricks in the book to make challenging courses that in turn challenge our top players.

Feb 17 2006, 09:18 AM
I have no problem with its use, so long as it serves a clear purpose. Hopefully as more money enters the sport they will be replaced with natural features (admittedly that are man-manipulated...)

Would I prefer actual lakes, ponds, streams and additional trees , bushes and stance hazards? Absotively! (See above)

I'd like to see more casual relief areas in use that require loss of distance but no penalty throw used. This so due to the fact that surface consistancy and texture really has little effect on a thrown disc.

I do think that we have miles to go as far as what is possible on a disc golf course, and for me that is a good and exciting thing!

wander
Feb 17 2006, 09:55 AM
This week's PGA event includes a most excellent mid-green bunker. This was a more common design feature early in the century, I think. There's room for a lot, design-wise, in dg and ball golf, and things are evolving still.

I like the idea of sculpting the land and adding trees and other obstacles to tweak a course more than some options, but there's room for everyone I'd say. The market should have a great impact on this general question. If folks don't like courses with a particular design/character, they're less likely to show up, all other considerations being equal.

Joe

ck34
Feb 17 2006, 12:28 PM
One thing we're discussing is whether to require that promoters who want to host A-tier and higher events in 2007 have their courses evaluated ahead of time with the PDGA process as a customer service for the players who'd like to know what to expect for courses. One problem is that the daily course setup which is covered by the evaluation may be quite different from some championship setup planned for the event.

Parkntwoputt
Feb 19 2006, 01:25 AM
Right now we have to make due with what we are given and with a relatively fixed budget. Even the best disc golf course designers are often given debilitated parcels of land, often either heavily wooded or wide open fields, and budgets smaller then $10k.

With that little money going into the upfront design specifications, what choices do designers and tournament directors have but to add artificial obstacles to the courses to increase the challenge? I mean, how much money does Jack Nicholas get for designing a course, what is his budget? I imagine Millions, considering greens fees are in excess of $100/round if you are even invited onto the course!

Until disc golf course designers are given quality landscapes, massive earth moving machines, and a greenhouse full of flora to create "natural" hazards and obstacles, including a full time staff to groom and manicure the grounds, we will be forced to have to use man made artifical obstacles and hazards to increase the difficulty of this sport.

Unless you have the money and equipment to start moving earth to create mounds and ponds, and planting trees and shrubs at our countries courses, as well have a dedicated staff to manicure and maintain these courses to your standards......

Well???

bruce_brakel
Feb 19 2006, 02:36 PM
Should people who aren't putting up the money think they should have any say in calling the shots at these tournaments? Any time anyone is throwing 5 or 10 grand or more at the pro purse, the PDGA should just get out of the way.

ck34
Feb 19 2006, 02:51 PM
That's just called "unsanctioned" isn't it?

bruce_brakel
Feb 19 2006, 05:56 PM
No, its called respect for the sponsor. You could also call it the Golden Rule: He who has the gold, rules.

Last year two of the top ten fattest pro events were unsanctioned, and both were because of respect and control issues. One maybe was unavoidable but the other was merely a bad step by the PDGA. The sponsor didn't want to play bongo golf or beer and a shot golf. They didn't even want to play Clown's Mouth golf. They just wanted sanctioning at a level appropriate for an event with a $15,000 or $20,000 payout.

Given the way our sport is growing, big money will come to this sport eventually. The PDGA needs to be a facillitator of big events if it wants to be a relevant player, not a deal breaker with major control issues. If a major sponsor wants to play Clowns Mouth golf or yellow rope golf, we don't need to get in the way of that. If they are throwing good money at the event, and not selling mulligans, the PDGA just needs to get out of the way and say, "How can we help in a way that is actually helpful?"

gdstour
Feb 19 2006, 09:16 PM
I guess my poll was meant for the players who play events not for the organizers and sponsors.

Its too bad that very few of the top players actually post on this discussion board and partake in the polls :(


It would be nice to see the results of this poll taken from the just the top 200 rated players.
I'm thinking the reluts might not be the same.

I guess I am somewhat conservative and more of a traditionalist when it comes to disc golf.

I do like most of the new rule changes though.

DweLLeR
Feb 20 2006, 08:07 PM
I would think most the top rated pros would and will avoid getting 'involved' on this board.

I would also think they would have a tough time really speaking their minds about the direction golf has and will take, even though they are truely the backbone of the industry / sport.

Why bite the hand that feeds you.

And of course we already know how 'out of context' statements can be taken. Your right though Dave, its a shame. :(

gdstour
Feb 21 2006, 12:46 AM
I guess the question would be do 1000 rated players carry any clout when it comes to the types of events they would like to be playing.

Will there be a day when it would be of the best interests for the pro players to form a players union?

What are some of the pros and cons for our elite players to unite on one front through union representation?

james_mccaine
Feb 21 2006, 02:46 PM
I guess the question would be do 1000 rated players carry any clout when it comes to the types of events they would like to be playing.



I would argue that most of the top players ARE playing the events they would like to be playing. Just look at the payout structure. Just look at the tourney classifications based on purse requirements, which have led to higher and higher entry fees. The lesser skilled players surely did not create these things.

All in all, I think the top players got it pretty **** good in this system.

As for yellow rope used in big events, why do you think the top players would poll any different than the results so far? Well placed rope is fair. It creates a challenge. It helps separate higher skilled players from lesser skilled players. I would think these are all things the top guys should like.

gdstour
Feb 22 2006, 08:31 PM
James,
Im not sure we are on the same page.
By types of events I meant types of holes, courses, formats etc,,
Of course Top players are going to play in the events that pay the most money, but do they really like the types of courses and formats they play?

Would top players prefer roll starts?

What about paying top 20% instead of 40%?

What about cuts to top 24 players for the final rounds?

We wont really ever know these answer because very few top pros post here.

I'm pretty sure that most players who have answered the poll and post regularly are below 1000 and most are even below 970.
Which in my opinion doesnt qualify as a top pro.

This doesnt mean others are not qualified to answer, but it would be nice to know what top players think.

It would also be great if more top players responded on some of these threads, especially for information on disc selection or advice on techinque.
I only seems seems to reson that anwers from higher rated players could hold more merit.

rhett
Feb 22 2006, 09:39 PM
It would also be great if more top players responded on some of these threads, especially for information on disc selection or advice on techinque.
I only seems seems to reson that anwers from higher rated players could hold more merit.


I can only see that happening if we move to new model on the message board where certain areas are heavily moderated so that there can be an "Ask the Pro" section, so that top pros could actually answer reasonable questions without having to wade through 400 pages of garbage.

That actually sounds like something worth pursuing to me.

ck34
Feb 22 2006, 09:48 PM
If five players rated from 970-990 prefer one format and five guys rated 1000-1020 prefer a different format, the higher rated group of guys will want to know what the lower rated "donators" like and hope that TDs would use that format. That's why the payout tables have been flattened this year at the request of several top rated players so that hopefully more players below 1000 will enter events. I would say the top guys will be happy with whatever format gets larger player fields. The reality is that the opinions of lower rated players may be more useful at this point for helping the top guys.

quickdisc
Feb 22 2006, 11:02 PM
If five players rated from 970-990 prefer one format and five guys rated 1000-1020 prefer a different format, the highe group of guys will want to know what the lowe "donators" like and hope that TDs would use that format. That's why the payout tables have been flattened this year at the request of several top rated players so that hopefully more players below 1000 will enter events. I would say the top guys will be happy with whatever format gets larger player fields. The reality is that the opinions of lowe players may be more useful at this point for helping the top guys.



That is true. The top rated players adjust so the field is larger with better payout.

gdstour
Feb 23 2006, 12:25 AM
What!
I am willing to bet top pros( 1000 and above) do not want flatter payouts.
Where did you come up with this info?

ck34
Feb 23 2006, 12:47 AM
Got to listen to PDGA radio when Feldberg discussed it based on conversations with guys on tour. It was also supported by players Yeti talked with when we discussed making the change in the Competition Committee.

widiscgolf
Feb 23 2006, 10:38 AM
A very good point bruce.

james_mccaine
Feb 23 2006, 11:38 AM
That's why the payout tables have been flattened this year at the request of several top rated players so that hopefully more players below 1000 will enter events.



This is further illustration of the clout of top rated players. A no-brainer good idea for the sport, and thus eventually good for future top level players, only gets adopted because it was requested by "top level players." Forget that that the idea has merit, or that it is good for the sport, those reasons are unimportant, but if top players "request" it, it gets adopted. ;) Thank god there is such a thing as enlightened self interest.

I know this rant is an aside to Dave's question, sorry for the drift.

neonnoodle
Feb 23 2006, 04:00 PM
A further aside: There is a PDGA Major that only permits players with ratings below 970 to enter it. The payout structure is even more conservative than for our advanced divisions.

keithjohnson
Feb 23 2006, 08:51 PM
and don't forget the major in japan that discriminates against plastic weighing over 150 grams!!

neonnoodle
Feb 23 2006, 10:25 PM
and don't forget the major in japan that discriminates against plastic weighing over 150 grams!!



I was there for that rabbit in the picture mess up.

"150gram RAMS are safer when they nail pedestrians in the temple..." appeasement to the parks...

Of course now the event is out on Ball Golf Courses where their is no threat of hitting pedestrians. Uurgh!

gotcha
Mar 08 2006, 10:04 AM
Should Yellow ropes and triple mandos be used for NT and A-Tier Events?



The following players list <font color="black"> </font> Winthrop Gold <font color="black"> </font> as one of their favorite courses:

S Brinster 1018
K Climo 1037
B Hammock 1023
S Martin 1016
M Moser 1020
M Orum 1022
J Reading 1013
B Schultz 1035
D Greenwell 1002
G Lissaman 1009
S McDaniel 1009
J Myers 1012
P Shive 957
S Wisecup 1016

Again, these are top-rated players identifying their "favorite courses", not favorite tournaments. I know several other high rated players who also list WG as one of their favorite courses. Take away the yellow rope, triple mando and hay bales, I'm willing to bet WG would not make the favorites list for many of these players, myself included.

Jerry Gotcher
PDGA 7956

ck34
Mar 08 2006, 10:08 AM
I would agree that WG is better with the rope. I'm not convinced that WG with rope would be their favorite course for daily play if there were other courses nearby versus just their favorite course for tournament play. I think a player's list of favorite courses for daily play may be different from their list of favorite courses for tournament play.

Lyle O Ross
Mar 09 2006, 11:58 AM
I really don't understand the focus on what the top players want.

This issue, or some version of it comes up about once every 6 months. First, the guys/gals that drive this sport are the everyday players at leagues, minis, and tournaments, most of whom don't cash. The elite players, while important for positioning and excitment, are not what is really important here. As was pointed out, what those lower ranked players want is what matters.

|The use of , mandos, rope, hay bales etc. are like the use of any tool in a sport. Are they accepted and do they increase participation?

Now, in baseball a lot of purists went bonkers when they added in the wildcard. However, the result is unquestioned, more fan support, more revenue. The same question needs to be asked here, do ropes, mandos, hay etc. increase a) player participation, and b) fan support?

Now I know there is no real fan base yet but if there were which would they rather watch, a guy throwing through the Clown's Mouth, or a guy throwing in a wide open feild? More relavant to the current situation, what would a player prefer? Well, as written in an earlier post, we know that lots of top players like it; do the "real" players like it is the real question?

As far as that is concerned, Dave's pole has merit, most of the people who post here are "real" players...

Parkntwoputt
Mar 09 2006, 12:06 PM
While I am not a top player yet, I strive to be. I am working my way up to eventually become a scratch 1000 rated player. Working full time will limit my success to become a World champ, but I am happy with that.

Saying so, I am a proponent of the "1 way to success" mentality in hole design standards. The "1 way to success" means scores better then par. I support bale out par routes, but to become better then par, you need to take well calculated and executed risks.

Until we can afford to naturally create OB's triple mando's and narrow/manageable fairways and landing zones, I support the need/use of yellow ropes, artificial mando's and hay bales.

gdstour
Mar 12 2006, 02:26 AM
So the only 2 chioice in course design are clowns mouths, yellow ropes and hay bales or wide open fields.
I feel sorry for you if those are the only courses you have access to.
We have 15 courses here in St Louis area , each one different, dynamic and as challenging as the next.
We have 3 courses that play at or above par 70 in the long pin postions, with a even-7 down being a pretty good score for a 1000 rated player depending on the course and conditions.
We have few few mandos and only use paths, roads and parking lots as artificial ob, but do have creeks ponds and Tons of elevation and woods to work with.

I guess I am a bit conservative and feel the lay of the land and using its nature given qualities to the fullest is all that should be needed. :cool:

Is removing things like small trees honeysuckle, vines and multifloral, planting live trees or moving earth too hypocrytical? :confused:

gotcha
Mar 12 2006, 08:46 AM
We have few few mandos and only use paths, roads and parking lots as artificial ob, but do have creeks ponds and Tons of elevation and woods to work with.

I guess I am a bit conservative and feel the lay of the land and using its nature given qualities to the fullest is all that should be needed. :cool:

Is removing things like small trees honeysuckle, vines and multifloral, planting live trees or moving earth too hypocrytical?



No. Removing/planting trees, moving earth, etc would not be considered hypocrytical, but admiting that some of your courses have "a few mandos" could be construed as such. Your opening post (and poll) asks "Should Yellow ropes and triple mandos be used for NT and A-Tier Events?"

A mando simply restricts the flight path of a disc. It doesn't matter if it's a single, double or a triple. Duvall's triple mando at WG is only one hole and is designed to demonstrate golfers' accuracy skills. The miles of yellow rope is there for same reason. These man-made elements improve the course design by adding challenge and risk/reward opportunities which would not exist otherwise...especially for top rated players.

Not everyone is lucky enough to have "creeks, ponds and Tons of elevation and woods" to work with.

Jerry

"Artificial OB" is an oxymoron. Out-of-Bounds is what it is....OB

neonnoodle
Mar 12 2006, 08:32 PM
"Artificial OB" is an oxymoron. Out-of-Bounds is what it is....OB



Good point Jerry.

"Artificial" implies that there is a "Natural" Out of Bounds. I agree that this is a misconception. All OB is "Man-Made"; in that it must be defined and declared by the director to even "Exist".

ck34
Mar 12 2006, 08:51 PM
The "best" OB looks natural, has well defined boundaries, your disc can easily be retrieved safely from it and there's nothing manmade or natural in the OB area that's likely to be damaged when struck by a disc. There are many natural areas that don't meet all of these criteria and manmade areas that meet just as many.

For most players, I would suspect that being able to retrieve your disc ranks higher in priority than whether the OB area looks natural. In that regard, yellow roped grassy areas are probably preferable, if the truth be known, to deep, unsafe or illegal retrieval, natural or manmade bodies of water like the Memorial. At Highbridge, we're trying to create OB water areas that are shallow and clear enough to retrieve discs and have the edges sharply defined with rock edges versus the typically ill-defined water/muddy bank/grassy edges of natural hazards.

denny1210
Mar 13 2006, 09:06 AM
I agree with Chuck about the well-defined boundaries. I hate when a hole sometimes has OB and sometimes not depending on how much rain there's been.

Some competitors at the Players Cup thought some of the OB lines were too high off the water. Our thought is that the hole should play the same OB-wise year-round. There was a concern that the OB line up off the water on hole 13 wasn't very visible from the tee. We will address that for the next event by highlighting the OB line with marker flags every 15 feet or so.

My criticism of yellow rope OB's is that their visibility isn't nearly as good as roads, sidewalks, hedges, rock walls, or haybales. Having said that, I think that the USDGC has done more to advance design concepts at the championship level than any other event. I think that the use of yellow ropes on Winthrop was creative and effective for raising the bar. I do not think, however, that it should be the default design concept that should be emulated in lieu of new ideas.

ck34
Mar 13 2006, 09:20 AM
Thanks, Denny. Add: "boundaries should be reasonably visible from a distance" to the definition of "best" OB areas. Ideally, there should be a difference in the color or texture of the ground surface (grass/cement/water/rock) at the OB boundary or that OB line should be marked in a way that it can be seen from a distance with elements above the ground like rope, flags, fence or posts.

wander
Mar 13 2006, 11:56 AM
a hole sometimes has OB and sometimes not depending on how much rain there's been.

Some competitors at the Players Cup thought some of the OB lines were too high off the water. Our thought is that the hole should play the same OB-wise year-round.



Hey, Denny.

How right you are!

I can recall marking some pond edge OBs for 2000 Worlds and being certain they were well above the water line.

But when the torrential rains came through, the already full ponds got more full and in a few spots the water line rose enough to make some casual water areas inside of the line-marking string.

Had the lines not been in place, players would have had vastly different holes depending on when they played. As it was, everyone at least had the same size fairway all throughout the event.

I'm not so certain the lines can't vary between events, but within an event, everyone should play the same course as much as possible.

Joe

ck34
Mar 13 2006, 12:10 PM
The lake shoreline on the North course at the National Center is a concern regarding OB marking. The slope is rather shallow in several spots so just a few feet variance in lake level can mean 30 feet difference in exposed ground. Should we mark permanent OB stakes at the high water positions or just let the OB vary seasonally? Any course records would be suspect if we don't mark permanent OB because the six water holes will vary in difficulty significantly with variable OB based on on the water line. I'm thinking we need to have permanent lines for sanctioned tournament play but perhaps have the tradition of using the water line for daily and local league play?

We also have some creek beds that sometimes get partially filled during high water. Should we mark them OB or just call the water OB when it's there, or should the water be casual? The challange is to mark lines along the banks and not have them look ugly and/or artificial. The natural looking stuff is much more expensive.

Mar 13 2006, 12:21 PM
The lake shoreline on the North course at the National Center is a concern regarding OB marking. The slope is rather shallow in several spots so just a few feet variance in lake level can mean 30 feet difference in exposed ground. Should we mark permanent OB stakes at the high water positions or just let the OB vary seasonally? Any course records would be suspect if we don't mark permanent OB because the six water holes will vary in difficulty significantly with variable OB based on on the water line. I'm thinking we need to have permanent lines for sanctioned tournament play but perhaps have the tradition of using the water line for daily and local league play?

We also have some creek beds that sometimes get partially filled during high water. Should we mark them OB or just call the water OB when it's there, or should the water be casual? The challange is to mark lines along the banks and not have them look ugly and/or artificial. The natural looking stuff is much more expensive.



Natural markings! I agree that there needs to be a constancy about the OB, I would argue that should be in place year round. For example, at the Wilmont here in Houston there is a great deal of variation, if you get used to certain areas being safe that changes your game. Then when you step up to the Tee at Texas States you are playing a different course.

What do you think about Wooden Fences made with the left-overs from the clearing?

Lyle O Ross
Mar 13 2006, 12:23 PM
The lake shoreline on the North course at the National Center is a concern regarding OB marking. The slope is rather shallow in several spots so just a few feet variance in lake level can mean 30 feet difference in exposed ground. Should we mark permanent OB stakes at the high water positions or just let the OB vary seasonally? Any course records would be suspect if we don't mark permanent OB because the six water holes will vary in difficulty significantly with variable OB based on on the water line. I'm thinking we need to have permanent lines for sanctioned tournament play but perhaps have the tradition of using the water line for daily and local league play?

We also have some creek beds that sometimes get partially filled during high water. Should we mark them OB or just call the water OB when it's there, or should the water be casual? The challange is to mark lines along the banks and not have them look ugly and/or artificial. The natural looking stuff is much more expensive.



Natural markings! I agree that there needs to be a constancy about the OB, I would argue that should be in place year round. For example, at the Wilmont here in Houston there is a great deal of variation, if you get used to certain areas being safe that changes your game. Then when you step up to the Tee at Texas States you are playing a different course.

What do you think about Wooden Fences made with the left-overs from the clearing?

tbender
Mar 13 2006, 12:27 PM
Or stakes as used in ball golf?

ck34
Mar 13 2006, 12:33 PM
Wooden fences unless 6" high would feel like you were throwing over a fairway barrier for these shots. We're thinking about natural color 2" wide metal fence posts about 3 ft high every 25-30 feet with plastic coated 1/8" cable strung along the ground with U nails securing it along the way for a definable line. We might have 2500 feet of shoreline that should be done that way if we're going to do it.

Mar 13 2006, 12:36 PM
Monkey grass.... i am not sure the technical name of it be we call it monkey grass here.

ck34
Mar 13 2006, 12:40 PM
Might be considered non-native for the area which is controlled by the Corps of Engineers, but I don't know what it is.

Mar 13 2006, 12:45 PM
Monkey grass (http://www.floridata.com/tracks/GardenersJournal02/dec_dogMemGarden.jpg) is the darker grass seperating the lawn from the mulch/garden area.

ck34
Mar 13 2006, 12:47 PM
I'm not sure how that would provide a better defined line than regular grass? Very little grass is growing along these shorelines so we're talking about more of a hard pack dirt area than much foliage.

Mar 13 2006, 12:53 PM
I have monkey grass in my back yard seperating the flower garden from the lawn. The monkey grass is very narrow long strands of extremly dark grass. You can make a definate yet wide line with it.

Just a thought to try and keep with the natural theme.

crusher
Mar 13 2006, 01:39 PM
Loriope "aka Monkey Grass" would make a poor O.B. Line for disc golf. Discs can come to rest on top of it, making the call that much harder. ALso the new rule states that if the disc is touching the line, it is considered out.

Loriope, has many blades that can over hang making it hard to judge the line.

Making a line with something that will clearly define it is a better choice.

Mar 13 2006, 02:01 PM
It really depends on which type. Most of the pics I got on a search for Liriope pulled up stuff that I would agree is terrible for an OB line. The specific type I was referring to, like i have in the back yard, would work just fine if you are set on keeping things natural.

Another option could be to half bury large rocks in a line. I beleive Chuck said something like 1500 feet of OB so that probably is not the best option.

Less natural, you could use flex hose/tubing semi-buried. Maybe find some with a more natural color or something. Once agian with 1500 ft of OB that would probably not be best since the cost would be pretty high i would think.

rickb
Mar 13 2006, 04:18 PM
My criticism of yellow rope OB's is that their visibility isn't nearly as good as roads, sidewalks, hedges, rock walls, or haybales.



To be quite honest the yellow rope used at Winthrop is highly visible. The use of the green stakes provides a way to lay the small yellow rope on the ground defining the ob and the large diameter rope at the top to show you where the ob is while preparing your shots.

In my 4 years of being involved with the USDGC there has been one constant. Agree with the rope or not, every competitor I've talked to or overheard has said it's fair. It epitimizes risk/reward. Actually that is untrue. There was 1 Gateway sponsored player who didn't like it at all and has refused to return to the event. Hey didn't gateway start this thread??........

Lyle O Ross
Mar 13 2006, 05:27 PM
My criticism of yellow rope OB's is that their visibility isn't nearly as good as roads, sidewalks, hedges, rock walls, or haybales.



To be quite honest the yellow rope used at Winthrop is highly visible. The use of the green stakes provides a way to lay the small yellow rope on the ground defining the ob and the large diameter rope at the top to show you where the ob is while preparing your shots.

In my 4 years of being involved with the USDGC there has been one constant. Agree with the rope or not, every competitor I've talked to or overheard has said it's fair. It epitimizes risk/reward. Actually that is untrue. There was 1 Gateway sponsored player who didn't like it at all and has refused to return to the event. Hey didn't gateway start this thread??........



LUIH!!!! :D

gnduke
Mar 14 2006, 12:35 AM
Also the new rule states that if the disc is touching the line, it is considered out.



I can't believe that you all let this pass without question.

Nowhere in any rule does it state that touching the line is out of bounds. The rule (803.09.A) clearly states (just as before) that the disc must be "clearly and completely surrounded by the out-of-bounds area" to be considered out of bounds. The only change is that the line itself is now considered to be part of the out of bounds area where it was considered to be part of the in bounds area previously.

wander
Mar 14 2006, 09:46 AM
Hi, Chuck.

I'm thinking any serious competition should have consistent lines w/in the event, so marking should be mando if no clear line exists otherwise. But for casual play, let the water line determine ob etc.

I think some sort of rope/stake combination should do the trick, especially if the area is softer and short stakes can easily be driven into the ground to anchor the marking rope.

Those seldom-but-occasionally-wet areas should probably be left casual I'd think, although the attraction of additional OB areas can't be denied.

Joe

ck34
Mar 14 2006, 09:59 AM
I think we're leaning in that direction since it is the National Center and a showcase. Even though manufacturers donated baskets for the courses, all of the other money for the courses is coming from donations so it's not like we're flush with cash to pay for course amenities. The half mile of cable and stakes will cost a little bit so we're hoping a donor for cash or the items themselves will appear along the way.

As other folks with courses along lakes may have noted, the additional issue for using water/land as the OB boundary is waves. There's lots of speed boat action on the lake and with shallow bottom slope in some areas, the waves can change the completely water covered ground up to 3 or 4 feet at times while walking from tee to disc.

neonnoodle
Mar 14 2006, 10:30 PM
Loriope "aka Monkey Grass" would make a poor O.B. Line for disc golf. Discs can come to rest on top of it, making the call that much harder. ALso the new rule states that if the disc is touching the line, it is considered out.



Incorrect! The line is considered OB, touching it and IB is still IB. Touching it and touch only OB is OB (that is the change).

I got your back Gary.

jackinkc
Mar 27 2006, 01:27 AM
Where did you get this information on the players courses? We are doing some work to help ensure Water Works longevity, and I keep on telling folks that it is one of the top 10 courses in the country. No real threat, but some have been made, and we are working with the Parks and Recreation, the neighborhoods, and anyone we can to listen. Anyone that has a list of Top 10 from anything would be great!!

Thanks,

Jack

gotcha
Apr 03 2006, 09:47 AM
I obtained the player/favorite course info directly from Innova's web site. Discraft's and Gateway's web sites have similar (sponsored) player info as well.

gdstour
Apr 22 2006, 03:20 AM
My criticism of yellow rope OB's is that their visibility isn't nearly as good as roads, sidewalks, hedges, rock walls, or haybales.



To be quite honest the yellow rope used at Winthrop is highly visible. The use of the green stakes provides a way to lay the small yellow rope on the ground defining the ob and the large diameter rope at the top to show you where the ob is while preparing your shots.

In my 4 years of being involved with the USDGC there has been one constant. Agree with the rope or not, every competitor I've talked to or overheard has said it's fair. It epitimizes risk/reward. Actually that is untrue. There was 1 Gateway sponsored player who didn't like it at all and has refused to return to the event. Hey didn't gateway start this thread??........



LUIH!!!! :D



I started the thread and attended the 1st usdgc in 97.
I have no reasons for not attending, but I believe shawn Sinclair went ob 22 times and still wound of in 10th does that seem like something that should happen at a major event?
22 obs and you should even come close to cashing :eek:

I started this thread because, while liberal when it comes to bisexual nymphos I am quite conservative with the Sport I love and would like to keep it as natural as possible.
I am liking the sand trap Idea, Not sure if it should cost you a stroke, but if they are deep enough, it would be a great Hazard around a green that needs a little help to add some difficulty, rope is great for actual out of the boundries of the courses but inside the course it s fake and hokey. Sand bunkers are on disc golf courses and more tradtional forms of Hazards for Golf!

Triple mandos are just not the direction for me as a course designer and Someone would be hard pressed to convince me they are good for the sport, good for a dame maybe, but not for a sport :(

james_mccaine
Apr 24 2006, 01:02 PM
The triple mando issue aside, I would argue that OB on every or most holes, whether artificial or natural, brings disc golf closer to being a real sport because it challenges the skills and fortitude of the players.

At Texas States this weekend, there are very few holes that punish bad shots. At the tee, there is little to no pressure because a shank doesn't hurt you very much. Frankly, those type of holes are boring; both to play and to watch others play. However, there were some great holes with tight fairways, bordered on both sides by OB. The kind of holes that test your nerves and skills. Not coincidently, these were the holes that the gallery loves, just like the island hole at Sawgrass.

I suspect that the crowds love them mostly because everyone can sense the tension and witness the drama during and after the disc's flight. Just as I always wonder why Sawgrass doesn't have at least nine holes that are as dicey as the island hole, I wonder why disc golf TDs and designers don't strive to create the same kind of drama on more of our disc golf holes. Anyways, hail to OB that punishes all but good shots, it makes what we do more of a sport, rather then less.

Lyle O Ross
Apr 24 2006, 01:21 PM
The triple mando issue aside, I would argue that OB on every or most holes, whether artificial or natural, brings disc golf closer to being a real sport because it challenges the skills and fortitude of the players.

At Texas States this weekend, there are very few holes that punish bad shots. At the tee, there is little to no pressure because a shank doesn't hurt you very much. Frankly, those type of holes are boring; both to play and to watch others play. However, there were some great holes with tight fairways, bordered on both sides by OB. The kind of holes that test your nerves and skills. Not coincidently, these were the holes that the gallery loves, just like the island hole at Sawgrass.

I suspect that the crowds love them mostly because everyone can sense the tension and witness the drama during and after the disc's flight. Just as I always wonder why Sawgrass doesn't have at least nine holes that are as dicey as the island hole, I wonder why disc golf TDs and designers don't strive to create the same kind of drama on more of our disc golf holes. Anyways, hail to OB that punishes all but good shots, it makes what we do more of a sport, rather then less.



I think James makes a great point here but one has to ask, how ready are we for that, and when is too much of a good thing too much? Those really tough holes, like #8 at the Willy, and #16 on the Tourny are awesome, but they are hugely punishing, not just for the lower ranked players, but for the big players also. More of those holes will change the game to a more conservative sport. Shorter throws, less risk taking.

I think a better solution is the one advocated by John Houck. Risk reward. Give the players options, one safe one risky. Making the risky shot, shaves a stroke etc. You can sort of see this in some areas, and while I love Bass, I have to admit, the risk reward shots are just not there yet. Give us time though!

rhett
Apr 24 2006, 01:52 PM
Anyways, hail to OB that punishes all but good shots, it makes what we do more of a sport, rather then less.


I have to totally agree with james for a change. :D The Vista course at the Memorial this year was, IMHO, excellent in this regard. And that's coming from someone who played it like crap and shot horribly on that course. Thing is, I wasn't making my turnover shots turn over and I earned the horrid score that I shot.

One thing I really dislike about our game is the recurring theme of one player driving the fairway perfectly and landing 50 feet from the pin, and another player whacking the first or second tree off the tee, and those two players ending up both getting threes.

Apr 24 2006, 02:28 PM
A more difficult basket would solve that problem.
http://flogosh.web.aplus.net/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/.pond/100_1064.jpg.w560h373.jpg

Lyle O Ross
Apr 24 2006, 03:53 PM
Anyways, hail to OB that punishes all but good shots, it makes what we do more of a sport, rather then less.


I have to totally agree with james for a change. :D The Vista course at the Memorial this year was, IMHO, excellent in this regard. And that's coming from someone who played it like crap and shot horribly on that course. Thing is, I wasn't making my turnover shots turn over and I earned the horrid score that I shot.

One thing I really dislike about our game is the recurring theme of one player driving the fairway perfectly and landing 50 feet from the pin, and another player whacking the first or second tree off the tee, and those two players ending up both getting threes.



Actually, where I see this is with accomplished players. In fact, I see it frequently in ball golf where a bad drive gets saved. The reality is, to save that par, you have to be good. Now, I fully admit that is course dependent but I think you guys are judging the entire sport by the top end players. Those guys (and in reality, you're included in those guys) are supposed to make those saves look easy.

gnduke
Apr 24 2006, 04:01 PM
The problem is that in ball golf, the save is a tough shot. Anyone that knows how rough effects ball control knows that.

In disc golf with no obstacles or schule, a longer approach is just that. If it's open and less than 300' it's not a difficult save for top level players.

Or put it this way. In disc golf, everything is fairway except trees and schule. A course with very few trees and very little schule, is like a ball golf course with no rough.

denny1210
Apr 24 2006, 11:58 PM
Or put it this way. In disc golf, everything is fairway except trees and schule. A course with very few trees and very little schule, is like a ball golf course with no rough.



I grew up playing golf on a "cow pasture" course where the rough really wasn't a penalty. The greens were flat and didn't have bunkers in front, so the "penalty" of losing backspin out of the rough didn't really matter, we just played one less club and let the ball bounce up onto the green. The good thing about that course was that it was cheap and I could play often. There was no way, however, that someone could develop a "pro" game playing exclusively on courses like that.

We still need plenty more "starter" courses in disc golf as we continue to grow the sport. We also need more courses that require more complete games to shoot the money numbers. In the short run the yellow rope OB's have given TD's the opportunity to create challenging layouts where score distributions resemble those of pro golf tournaments and "par" means something on fairly wide-open courses.

Although these layouts have significantly improved our sport, they are not the future of championship course design. Compared to the courses to come, yellow-rope courses are like 2D compared to 3D. The element that is minimized on yellow-rope courses is "rough" and recovery shots. Once a disc is OB it's an automatic 1 shot penalty. It's not like a disc has gone into the trees off the fairway leaving a tiny gap with a route that can advance the disc 300 ft., a moderate gap that can advance the disc 220 ft., or a pitchout back to the fairway.

Future championship courses will be able to utilize larger construction budgets to cut fairways through thick woods, move dirt to create mounds and pits, and not have to over-rely on OB.

Tiger woods rarely hits OB. He frequently hits low punch cuts, smokes 8-irons over trees, blasts 200 yard 6-irons out of thick rough, etc.