About all the new rule changes and I was opposted to most of them but after hearing the man in charge talk, I understand everything much clearer.

The reason the ob rule was changed to get rid of ppl throwing these miracle hyzers / thumbers over OB and hitting fences and then getting to play from the fence and a 1 stroke penalty.

We also talked about the 5 meter relief rule when it comes to sticks across your disc. I thought that this applied in any situation. He said that it could be used when a stick is crossing your lie and that you didnt necesarily get up to 5 M, you get the first point clear of the stick within 5M, not necesarily the best point.

Just thought id pass that along

The interesting part is that the 5m rule wasn't new, just clarified in the new book. It has been that way for years.

if he's worried about those miracles, why doesnt does he like the miracle of sticking 50' above the basket and taking a dropin 2.

Remember that those were MTL's words, not Carlton's. It's possible that Robert didn't know how to spell "skillful".

i was thinking the same thing... I'm not a fan eliminating the 2M rule. What did Carlton say about that?

ref: USDGC hole#4. Haven't played in a few years, but it had a green completely encircled by tall cyprus trees. The skill shot was to knife hyzer (as I saw Barry do several times) into it, roll into it, or take your chances it wouldn't get stuck.
Now, I would just crash into it, take my drop and try to can the 30 foot putt.

that's just one example, am i missing something?

i was thinking the same thing... I'm not a fan eliminating the 2M rule. What did Carlton say about that?

ref: USDGC hole#4. Haven't played in a few years, but it had a green completely encircled by tall cyprus trees. The skill shot was to knife hyzer (as I saw Barry do several times) into it, roll into it, or take your chances it wouldn't get stuck.
Now, I would just crash into it, take my drop and try to can the 30 foot putt.

that's just one example, am i missing something?



Would you do that if those trees were designated casual hazards by the TD with relief stipulating that you must retee from the tee box (with or without penalty)?

The 2MR even as an option is as superfluous as ever. There is more than one way within existing rules to more effectively discourage folks from throwing at trees.

i was thinking the same thing... I'm not a fan eliminating the 2M rule. What did Carlton say about that?





we didnt get into the 2M Rule, but I should see him tomorrow night at the local club meeting and I'll ask

carlton has been against the 2 meter rule for years.

i was thinking the same thing... I'm not a fan eliminating the 2M rule. What did Carlton say about that?

ref: USDGC hole#4. Haven't played in a few years, but it had a green completely encircled by tall cyprus trees. The skill shot was to knife hyzer (as I saw Barry do several times) into it, roll into it, or take your chances it wouldn't get stuck.
Now, I would just crash into it, take my drop and try to can the 30 foot putt.

that's just one example, am i missing something?


the hyzer is the hardest second shot on hole 4 in my opinion because there is a huge tree blocking it from coming down cleanly, I either throw a thumber or stall putter depending on the angle. You could also throw it lower than 2 m and try and punch it threw if there was a 2m rule.
Stay tuned for MTL's reports

ask him, but remember that only japan and fallen empires revere their leaders as gods.

carlton has been against the 2 meter rule for years.



good lookin' and SMART!

and has neon lipstick on his butt :D

where have you been, self-banishment?

Pat Brenner is a volunteer for the PDGA.He did a good job adjusting this message boards code to make it a members only area. I appreciate that.

Carlton Howard is a long time volunteer for disc golf, a gentlemen and my friend.

I don't appreciate PDGA Members or Volunteers posting insulting things about either of them.

There is nothing strange about it.

I have never met either one of them but it sounds like they each have done alot of work for disc golf !!!!!

I have never met either one of them but it sounds like they each have done alot of work for disc golf !!!!!



Yes. They deserve a lot of thanks.

Totally forgot to ask Carlton about the 2M rule both times I saw him this week.

But, as most of you know, Carlton is against the rule.

yes he is. for no good reason. i wish we could vote on RC membership. or at least substantial rules changes.

I wouldn't say for no good reason, I don't know his reasoning, but knowing Carlton, he has a valid point to why he is against it.

I wouldn't say for no good reason, I don't know his reasoning, but knowing Carlton,
he has a valid point to why he is against [the 2M Rule].



You are correct sir. Listen to the PDGA Radio segment Carlton did regarding this issue on Oct. 11, 2004 and he will elaborate:

Windows Media Player version (http://www.pdga.com/pdgaradio/2004/rn2004-10-11.wma)

Real Player version (http://www.pdga.com/pdgaradio/2004/rn2004-10-11.ram)

<font color="red"> note: </font> Pat is so biased against the 2M Rule he will probably mischaracterize Carlton's reasons as mere deference to the Swedes :eek: :D

yup yer right. we should do what them there swedes do.

in 98 or 99 the membership voted out the 2 meter rule...only to have the BOD overrule the vote of the people...thus this is long overdue :p

The membership doesn't do any voting on rules. We occasionally take a poll or survey to gauge the opinions of the members before moving ahead with certain decisions.

The opinion on the 2 meter rule has been close to 50-50 as long as I have been paying attention (since 1997 - almost 10 years). The 2 meter rule is still an option. All we've done is gone from required (pre-2005) to optional default to in effect (2005), to optional defaulting to not in effect. We've left it up to the TD of each event to make the decision, not forcing it one way or the other.

-Theo Pozzy
PDGA Commissioner

At this point I am now officially confused. Do I understand correctly, the 2M rule is stricktly TD choice? If so why are you still mad Pat? I thought you were pushing that option?

mad? no, i am not a cow.

i believe the default should be left ON, for a number of reasons:

1. signs all over the country are now out of date;
2. the TD could still turn OFF the rule any time or for any area they wished;
3. no penalty for having a basically unplayable position is not within the spirit ofthe game of golf;
4. the rule stroke-and-distance lost disc rule completely obliterates the double-penalty scenarios pushed by the anti-2MR zealots.

Pat, subtracting your numero uno out of your rationale (i have never seen a sign that mentions the 2 meter rule, but if there are they can certainly get with the times) -- How are any of your other points not addressed by the TD having the ability to turn the 2 Meter Rule on if/when they see fit?

Don't forget you already proposed that the 2 MR should not be in effect outside of 10 meters from the pin and you say the main reason you moved from that position was merely for rhetorical advantage vis-a-vis Nick :eek:

its just not worth discussing at this point. like the Super Bowl outcome, life moves on. unlike the permanance of the SB outcome, people playing GOLF (ie Texas and NorCal) can still use the correct rule.

life moves on. unlike the permanance of the SB



yeah, i am really loving my SB Roc, and that does imply a sort of permanence: as i think i will feel that way for life ;)

people playing GOLF (ie Texas and NorCal) can still use the correct rule



Of course not using the 2m rule just enhances Minnesota's place in these rankings (let alone its rank as the most educated state) :)

Most Livable States, 2005
2005 rank State 2004 rank
1. New Hampshire 1.
2. Minnesota 2.
3. Vermont 3.
4. Wyoming 6.
5. Virginia 7.
6. Iowa 4.
7. Massachusetts 16.
8. New Jersey 5.
9. South Dakota 10.
10. Nebraska 8.
11. North Dakota 15.
12. Maryland 14.
13. Wisconsin 13.
14. Connecticut 9.
15. Maine 12.
16. Colorado 23.
17. Delaware 18.
18. Idaho 17.
19. Utah 19.
20. Kansas 11.
21. Indiana 20.
22. Missouri 20.
23. Rhode Island 24.
24. Montana 27.
25. Washington 25.
26. Hawaii 32.
27. Alaska 31.
28. Michigan 34.
29. Nevada 30.
30. New York 33.
31. Illinois 26.
32. Ohio 29.
33. Pennsylvania 22.
34. Oregon 27.
35. California 36.
36. Arizona 38.
37. Florida 37.
38. Georgia 35.
39. Alabama 47.
40. North Carolina 45.
41. Kentucky 42.
42. New Mexico 41.
43. Oklahoma 40.
44. South Carolina 48.
45. Texas 39.
46. West Virginia 43.
47. Tennessee 46.
48. Arkansas 44.
49. Louisiana 49.
50. Mississippi 50.

what are those rankings based on?

www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921975.html (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921975.html)

Anyone that thinks Wyoming is the 4th most livable state hasn't spent much time in Wyoming.

Of course, it's a state that's produced a perennial World Champ.

Most Livable States, 2005



That list is obvious biased against the South and must have been formulated by a yankee. Even though VA is high on the list, the next highest rated southern state is 37!

I dont think the people who did that survey ever visited most of those states.

Most Livable States, 2005



That list is obvious biased against the South and must have been formulated by a yankee. Even though VA is high on the list, the next highest rated southern state is 37!



Nice Avatar of Scott Stokley !!!!

Most Livable States, 2005



That list is obvious biased against the South and must have been formulated by a yankee. Even though VA is high on the list, the next highest rated southern state is 37!



These types of comments always make me smile. Did you go back and look at the link that Chuck posted? At the bottom of the listing they give some of the direct items measured and they include, poverty, household income, cost of living, and crime rates.

The reason that Virginia hits high is because of it's proximity to Washington. The reason the rest of the South does badly is obvious.

Now, if the measurements included the number of days above 40 degrees F, well the South would have the top 10 spots hands down, but they'd still have more poverty, fewer jobs, higher crime rates and... not enough great disc golf players... :D

Temps over 40 aren't always a benefit. We're regularly one of the top two healthiest states and long lived, probably due to better preservation at temps like the -20 we had here last night...

the South would have the top 10 spots hands down, but they'd still have more poverty, fewer jobs, higher crime rates and...not enough great disc golf players... :D



You must have never visited the REAL (http://www.radl.biz/gallery/xtown/100_4553?full=1) <font color="red"> dirTTy</font> (http://www.essingen.com/raleigh/billyrays.jpg) South (http://www.essingen.com/raleigh/raleigh4.jpg)

Is that because all of the un-healthy people can't survive the winters ? I know we lose a few to heat every year, but I think I prefer it below the 34'th parallel.


Temps over 40 aren't always a benefit. We're regularly one of the top two healthiest states and long lived, probably due to better preservation at temps like the -20 we had here last night...