Everybody needs to be clear that the new rules require that two throws be removed from the penalized players score if it turns out that the "lost disc" was picked up and removed by another player.

does that mean if i lose my disc and then on the second shot from the tee put the disc in the basket to take a circle 3, and we find out later someone in the group ahead picked up the first disc and put it in their bag -- i would then get an ace? do i get the ace fund money too? :eek: :D

altho rhett's wording is not precise, the answer is YES you would get an ace.

No way. The 2 shots that are deducted from the score are the ace and the 1-shot penalty. It's a scoring or virtual ace, not an actual ace, unless the person who picked up the disc said they picked it up out of the basket.

i think there is a strong case for an ace.

No way. The 2 shots that are deducted from the score are the ace and the 1-shot penalty. It's a scoring or virtual ace, not an actual ace, unless the person who picked up the disc said they picked it up out of the basket.


No way on that one, Chuck.

The 2 throws that are removed from the score are the original throw that was "not lost" and the penalty throw for "lost disc".

The score that counts starts with the re-tee. If it goes in the schuul and results in a snowman, you take that. if it goes in the basket, you get the ace.

I agree Sandalman. If an ace is in fact when someone cards a 1 for their score then it would be hard to not give them the ace money.if you did not specify that the only way to get the acepot was to make it in the basket on your first throw of the hole then I think you have to pay off the carded 1.

Maybe ace needs to be defined in the glossary even though ace pots are side action.

Think about the odds of this happening.

First off, someone has to snag your disc off the fairway. Then you have to go through the pain of not finding it even though you know where to go searching. Then you have to go back and re-tee with a penalty. You're throwing three from the tee.

Then you nail it. It's great, and it stinks. You get the 3p and move along.

Then you get to tourney central and find your disc in the lost and found pile.


You should get the ace. It will probably take 10 years for this to happen once.

Also after finding it in the lost and found you have to investigate to find out where and when the disc was found. Then prove that it was found during the time between you throwing and you walking down to where it shoulod have been.

Once in ten years??...I say, 1 in a million....lol

Sorry guys, you roll back the two throws that wouldn't have been thrown if the disc hadn't been picked up. Consider the throw sequence:

Throw A (lost)
Penalty
Throw B (retee)
Throw C (holes out)

Player gets a 4 on the hole. Subsequently, someone later indicates they picked up Throw A. Two shots are removed from the score. The shots that are removed are the Penalty and Throw B which would not have been thrown if the disc wasn't taken by the other player. Throw B is kind of like a Provisional that didn't need to be used after the fact because it wasn't known at the time. If Throw B happened to be an ace, it still wouldn't change the logic of removing that throw from the score.

Even if that is the case, if you were to throw it in the basket on your retee and then later find the disc to have been removed , you card a 1 which should entitle you to the acepot unless otherwise specified before hand by whomever is running the acepot.

wrong. he was retee-ing throwing for three.

stroke 1: the lost disc
stroke 2: the penalty
stroke 3: the second drive

second drive goes in for a 3.

later, the disc is proven to have been moved or taken.

3 - 2 = 1

ACE!

i stand corrected.....

ace ( P ) Pronunciation Key (s)
n.

A single spot or pip on a playing card, die, or domino.
A playing card, die, or domino having one spot or pip.
In racket games:
A serve that one's opponent fails to hit.
A point scored by such a serve.
The act of hitting a golf ball in the hole with one's first shot.
A military aircraft pilot who has destroyed five or more enemy aircraft.
An expert in a given field.

Well in that case, all the acepot money should be returned. Because a disc hitting chains in one throw does not qualify as an ace by the definition!

true dat....lol

Sorry guys, you roll back the two throws that wouldn't have been thrown if the disc hadn't been picked up.


Says who?

In disc golf you play the hole from beginiing to end.

In the lost disc scenario, here you go:

1) Tee-off: disc is taken
2) Lost disc penalty is incurred
3) Tee-off again
4) Throw upshot
5) Make putt

Total = 5

Disc is determined to have been removed while it was in play: delete items 1 and 2 from the list. Record a three.

Since you couldn't throw from the lie of item 1 above, item 1 was not used to complete the hole.

In the old rules, you played from the last place the disc was seen so only the penalty throw was removed in this scenario. That's because you were playing from the lie of the lost disc throw, as determined by the group. In the new rules, you completely discard the lost disc throw and go back and throw again from the previous lie.

More proof of ambiguity in the rules.

Hmmmmmmmm..........."In the new rules, you completely discard the lost disc throw and go back and throw again from the previous lie."

I don't see any ambiguity in the rule:
C. If it is discovered prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player�s disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.

You take the score, whatever it is, and subtract 2. If you shot a 56 with the lost disc penalty you get a 54. It does not say a thing about adjusting a particular hole score. It is just like adding two to the score or a late card or an incorrectly totalled card. You don't add it to a hole; you just add it to the score.

If the player who picked up the lost disc says he found it in the basket, you should get the ace pool for that. Otherwise it is like acing on your second try from the tee on an island hole. I did that once. Well, actually it was my fourth or fifth try, but at that point I had quit counting! :o

So Bruce, if all of this scenario occured on the first hole of a round, and then i dnf, and then later my disc is found to have been picked up by a guy on the hole ahead of me, and so then 2 strokes are subtracted -- it's a "1" right? :eek: :D

i guess you're still not giving me a piece of the ace pot? :o:( :D

If you DNF the hole remains a 3, but we can reduce your total score from 999 to 997 if you want. 999 is what the TD records for a DNF.

When I canned that island hole on my 5th or 6th try I jumped and yelled, "Ace!" Then someone else said, "I think that was more like an 11 or 13." Kind of took the glow off the moment for me.

LOL

What if we hear chains hit on a blind hole? Then we get to the basket and it is empty. The disc shows up in Lost and Found.......Later somebody says yeah I saw it go in, but some kid pulled it out and threw it in the water. Was it an Ace?... Yes.

Bruce is right. The rule doesn't say to remove 2 throws from the score for a certain hole, it says to remove 2 throws from the score. To be more clear though, the rule should say to remove 2 throws from the total score for the round.

Where do you play that they give an ace pot to someone who DNF's anyhow?

Actually I suppose we'd probably do that around here if someone had to DNF for reasons beyond his or her control...breaking an arm on the course or something...but the only DNF I know of so far that wasn't either someone just deciding it wasn't worth coming back, or someone who never intended to finish the event and accordingly didn't buy into the ace pool...was a friend of mine who left a midsummer tournament due to what was probably heat exhaustion, and he hadn't aced, so it didn't come up.

I say you give the dude/tte the ace pool money. I divert to the "spirit of the game" clause. Ace pool is all about fun, not about bickering about technicalities. :D

And I say an ace is when you hole out from the tee in one shot. Unless that takes place, no ace, and no ace pot.

I say call it an ace. It's not like the person in question in this scenario did a darn thing to get in that situation. They threw a shot, someone snagged it, they had to trudge back to the tee no doubt in a foul mood, and they sank a tee-shot.

They didn't lose their disc, someone took it.

They didn't have someone go steal their disc.

They didn't work the rules to get to that point.

They didn't buy a mulligan.

Call it an Ace.

Where do you play that they give an ace pot to someone who DNF's anyhow?

Actually I suppose we'd probably do that around here if someone had to DNF for reasons beyond his or her control...breaking an arm on the course or something...but the only DNF I know of so far that wasn't either someone just deciding it wasn't worth coming back, or someone who never intended to finish the event and accordingly didn't buy into the ace pool...was a friend of mine who left a midsummer tournament due to what was probably heat exhaustion, and he hadn't aced, so it didn't come up.



that was me :eek:

If you're going to advocate giving this hypothetical player the acepot in this scenario, here's something for you all to chew on...

Player A nails an ace on hole 3 of the first round. He turns his scorecard in at the end of the round and it is discovered that he shot a 52, not the 51 he had written on the card. Two penalty throws are added to the correct score, per the rules. Would you decide to not award Player A the acepot because the two-throw penalty for the mis-added card effectively renders the "1" into a "3"?

If you say "no", then why are you willing to award the acepot to someone who did not actually score a hole-in-one? In the case of removing the 2 throws for the inadvertant lost disc, you are removing the 2 throws from the total, not the individual hole. Not all that different than the 2 throws being added to the correct total, not to an individual hole.

--Josh

For one thing, the lost rule says score (could be the score of the hole that involved the penalty), and the incorrect score card specifically says total score.

Penalty strokes from play generally get added to the hole where they occurred. It makes sense that when they are taken away, they come off of the holes where they occurred.


803.11. Lost Disc - C. If it is discovered prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player�s disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.
<hr>
804.03 Scoring - G.(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score.



I don't think they should get the ace pot, because I don't consider a second shot from the tee to be an ace. Not in practice, and not in competition.

Like quoting rules ever did any good. We should let everyone at the event vote. If 75% say yes, give the player 75% of the Ace pot! :D

This was the best thread I have ever read on this board.

This was the best thread I have ever read on this board.



Hmm. Reading this I just had to go back and quickly read the entire thread. Sure enough: no obscenities (unless Rhett already got 'em), no personal attacks, and no anti-PDGA rants. Definitely a quality thread.

For the anser, you have to look at the intention of the rule. The rule exists so that a player is not penalized if some joker picks up his disc. By taking two strokes off the score, the rule serves it's purpose. The rule is not intended to award someone an ace on a second tee shot.

I'm sure you guys know this. Stop trying to take advantage of the rules and loose wording. I didn't know that many disc golfers moonlighted as lawyers.

803.11. Lost Disc - C. If it is discovered prior to the completion of the tournament, that a player�s disc that was declared lost had been removed or taken, then the player shall have two throws removed from his or her score.

804.03 Scoring - G.(2) If it is determined that the total score was incorrectly recorded, either by an error on a hole score or by an error in totaling the hole scores, including omission of the total score, the director shall add two penalty throws to the correct total score.



those two are not necessarily related. 804.03 only comes into play if the wrong score is recorded. if at the time was recorded it was still believed that the original tee shot was lost, then the player recorded the correct score. he cannot be penalized for not knowing information that wasnt known at the time he turned in the card.

btw, 803.11 should say "...a player�s disc that was declared lost during competition had been removed or taken during competition..." otherwise one could report discs as lost anytime. one could really catch up fast that way!

I'm sure you guys know this. Stop trying to take advantage of the rules and loose wording. I didn't know that many disc golfers moonlighted as <font color="blue"> bad </font>lawyers.

You guys are pretty funny......

Ace pots are NOT part of the PDGA rules. They are allowed side bets. If they were part of the PDGA rules, then Am's would not be allowed to collect the cash, since the PDGA defines Am's as a non-cash division. (I am not arguing for non payout of Am's).

So the question is whether the reetee can be defined as an Ace and a seperate issue is whether that type of "Ace" can collect the Ace pot. Think about it, practice shots are unfair, becasue they would allow an unfair advantage. Allowing the reetee to be considered an Ace valid for payout of the ace pot would give the player an unfair advantage. For this reason alone the Ace Pot money cannot be paid out. You can call it an Ace, since the end result is a 1 on the card.

Now I anticipate that someone will say that the player is unfairly penalized, but since the end result was a reduction of 2 strokes from the score (note I did not say on the hole or total score), what penality has been enforced?

However, since it is not covered under the PDGA rules, it is not an enforceable issue from the PDGA's standpoint for either side of the issue. :p

The disc is thrown from the tee pad and lands in deep muddy OB water where it likely will never be found. 2 stroke penalty (OB and lost disc) or 1? If the answer is 1 what is the authority?

Just read the last half of 803.09A for your answer and authority. Also read the OB definition in the Glossary for added support.

The OB definition is what I missed. Thanks.

I am on the fence on the 2 meter rule. It can be safe or OB no difference in my opinion but one thing I DO have a problem with is that a player is NOT penalized if he/she can't get his disc out of the tree. How is this NOT a LOST disc? You started the hole with that disc and now its stuck up in a tree where you can't get it. Shouldn't that equal a LOST DISC?

Shouldn't that equal a LOST DISC?




Of course that would mean a 2-shot penalty when it's lost in an OB pond?

If you wham a tree and your disc breaks in 2 it is lost to you for the round. You started the hole with that disc and now it's broken. Should that cost you a stroke penalty? It's the same as being stuck in a tree, isn't it?

--Mike

A Lost Disc is a Lost Disc right?

If its in the pond or in a tree, and you go to the next hole without your disc, its still lost right?

A broken disc should be able to be replaced like a broken club. Now to jump to the other thread. IMO: This should be the only time you should be able to get a new disc during the round.

I've never seen it played that way before, why should it be now ?