I've got an ongoing debate with a bud about that question. I won't say which side of the fence I'm on yet, but curious to see what y'all see as the pro's and con's on the question.

I say it depends on the course.
Most of the time I would give an emphatic, yes. Adv. golfers won't become better unless they are challenged.
However, sometimes the pro tee's can be so much harder that to put the Adv. golfers on them would just take too long.

On a side note, our tees are too short most of the time anyway. We're not playing golf, we're playing mini-golf or par-3 challenges. I don't think we'll be taken seriously until the average person can see golf when they're watching us. Having scores more than half the # of holes under par when we play par 3's just sounds silly to anybody that understands golf.

See you in a few weeks!

I say yes because of what John Houck told me at the '05 Am World Doubles when I asked if Advanced was playing from the pro tees.

He said "well yes, you advanced boys have the most of the skill of the professionals, you can drive far and accurately, you can make most of your putts inside 30ft, you just lack the consistency to make you pros."

I have played with some of the best pros of yesteryears and today. If a hole is so difficult that it is hindering play of the advanced players, it will possibly hinder play in the open division as well. I have seen a top pro take a 6 on a hole which is easily dueceable.

Have them play the long pads.

It depends on the level of event. So many Intermediates are playing in Advanced that it lowers the average rating in some areas and lower tiers to White level (around 900). If the event is a B-tier with Advanced averaging 935 or so and the Master and Open Pros average 960-965, then they're both Blue level players. Same tees is fine. At a combo Worlds with bona fide Gold level courses, you'll see enough difference in skill level between Open and Master Pros versus the Advanced divisions averaging Blue level that the tees several of the tees should be different where appropriate and the same as those used for Open Women and GM Pros.

HELL YES . I have done this at my home park for years and it is paying off both in my own abilities but with others as well .
I realize with the player rating you can sorta judge how you do against the pros but it is so important to actually see what you can do against the best of the best on a certain day .

YES

I agree with Tafe and Chuck that sometimes it's appropriate and sometimes not.

One of my first Supertour advanced tournaments I played with a guy the first round that had a pretty good game, but could only drive 280 ft. I was surprised to see at the end that he had won the event. The tees used were appropriate for advanced and didn't require 400ft. power to win. At the same time the winning pro shot -40 and one pro shot a -15 round. The tees that were appropriate for advanced were way too easy for pros. It's no knock on the course design that was 15 years old, but an example that many of our course configurations are way too easy for today's pros.

I think occasionally the pro tees are too difficult for advanced players (in terms of having many holes with score distributions too heavily concentrated on one particular number), but much more frequently those tees are too easy for pros.

I realize that pros come out of the advanced ranks and that the division needs to play challenging layouts, but the majority of advanced players will never be able to cash in the pro ranks. There are many advanced players that are solid golfers, but won't ever have 375 ft. power. I think it should be possible to win an advanced event with 325-350 ft. power. In the open division I think it should be possible to win an event with 375-400 ft. power.

I believe the layouts used for a division should spread scores for the top half of the division with 15-30% birdies on each hole, 40-70% pars, and 15-30% bogeys or worse. On some sets of tees this will happen for overlapping divisions. On some it will not. I definitely do not think course design should be micromanaged to accomodate a "perfect" score distribution, but do think that ranges of distributions should be considered. If advanced players average 15%-55%-30% (birdies-pars-bogeys) on a hole and pros average 50%-45%-5% then the tee is appropriate for advanced, but too easy for pros. If the scoring spreads for a particular division are "bad" on 3-4 holes, probably no big deal. On 6-9 holes, I'm questioning the wisdom of that particular set of tees. On more than 1/2 the holes, then I definitely think the tees were inapporpriate for that division.

I leave it to the TDs to decide.

I can tell when I play a hole that is not suited to my skill level. As a 960 something golfer I have never found a course where every hole on a layout at a PDGA event was perfectly suited to my skill level. Usually there are some holes that are too easy, where if you get a 3 you feel like you bogied the hole, and then there are a couple where getting a 3 is the best I can possibly do without hitting a 100 to 80 foot putt though I know there are 3 to 15 players that can park the hole easily.

I enjoy every hole for the challenge it brings, but it would be cool, in my estimation, to play a course that was 100% designed for my specific skill level. My pet peeve is travelling 3 to 5 hours to a Super Tour or National Tour event and then ending up playing a round on their pitch and putt layout. I'd almost rather just play one layout all tourney long designed just for me and my skill range, even if it was the one that kicked my arsinal.

There is the revenge factor; where you play the toughest layout and just miss scoring a great score on a great hole and you'd love to get another shot at getting it right. But you know, at best you will have to wait until the next year to play that layout again. Or you shoot terrible on a hole and lose 3 strokes to your buddy and you'd like a chance for you to shoot 3 strokes better and for them to have another chance to spawnch. LOL!

If a TD were interested in presenting 100% appropriate challenge according to skill level, then Open and Advanced should likely play different layouts. This considering the average PDGA Player Rating between those divisions is likely 50 points or there about.

I understand mixing it up. I'm running a pro-am this year at my home course and I realize that I can not use the layout I have been working on for Scratch golfers. It would absolutely brutalize players with skills below 940. So I'll likely have a mix. Now if I was running an Open event with one winner, I'd play all rounds from that Scratch Golf layout.

I might anyway, Nockamixon has taught me that even duffers love the more golf-like experience of par 66 plus disc golf.

At the 2004 Morley Field Spring Fling there was a hole that you had to throw an accurate 320ish foot drive to make it inbounds (tee was from OB). The overall hole length was probably something like 450' or something. Anyhow, I saw a sponsored PRO card I believe a 10 (might have been an 11) on that hole (I took a three both rounds :) ). The ADV division did not play from that teepad, their teepad was inbounds and the hole was maybe 220'.

If the AMS had had to play from the PRO pad, it would have significantly added to the speed of play issue.

Forgot to mention that in most cases, I think the ADV division should shoot from the PRO pads, just not all situations.

I am in agreement with the John Houck quote from above.

If your good enough to be an Advanced Am you can shoot from Pro tees. Adv. players just lack the consistency.
That's how you get better anyway, by pushing the envelope.

i would guess that most Advanced players would prefer to play the Pro tees anyway.

I am in favor of playing the pro tees for both rounds at a tournament. A lot of tournaments use pro tees 1st round and shorter tees for the second round. I know finishing in time is a factor in this decision but I don't like having the final round being a birdie fest. I generally shoot comparatively better from the tougher tees and these courses expose my current poor putting.

i would guess that most Advanced players would prefer to play the Pro tees anyway.



I agree.........

On most current disc golf courses, the "pro" tees are "blue" layouts that are appropriate for advanced players. Most of the time those tees are too easy for pro players.

On a solid "gold" layout the pro division will average around even par, the hot round will be in the 6-9 down range and the hot advanced round will be about 0-3 down. On that same layout the advanced division would average 5-8 over par and some would shoot +12 or worse. I'm an advanced player and enjoy playing a course that I have to play well to break par. I do think, though, that the tee selection for the division should take into account the level of play for at least the top half of the division and not just the minority of mini-pros.

Once again, I think that most of the "pro" tees at the present time are the appropriate difficulty for advanced players and too easy for pros.

If advanced players wish to play the same tees as the pros, they should play pro. Providing the illusion of comparative score without the experience and challenge of pitting your skills against the tougher division - is just that - an illusion. Grow some - play open.

No, Advanced players should play from the advanced tees, and Pro players should play from the Pro Tees.

Unfortunately, very few courses have Pro level tees. So it's the Pro players that are normally playing from the Advanced tees.

I am in favor of playing the pro tees for both rounds at a tournament. A lot of tournaments use pro tees 1st round and shorter tees for the second round. I know finishing in time is a factor in this decision but I don't like having the final round being a birdie fest. I generally shoot comparatively better from the tougher tees and these courses expose my current poor putting.



So this begs the question, should you not be playing shorter tees more often to better your short shot/putting game?

No, Advanced players should play from the advanced tees, and Pro players should play from the Pro Tees.

Unfortunately, very few courses have Pro level tees. So it's the Pro players that are normally playing from the Advanced tees.



True in some instances. Unless your playing doubles for cash !!!