The new year is coming up and lost discs are going to cost players even more than losing their $15 discs. It's somewhat ironic that losing a disc, which could be considered somewhat less the player's fault, will now be penalized more than the player throwing into a known and marked OB hazard or into visible schule where there's no way you want to play from it without taking up to 5 meters (or more) relief.

Lost discs don't have to be that punitive and here's how TDs can handle it. Make liberal use of the Special Conditions rule 804.01B. TDs may specify that any disc lost on a hole results in a penalty but player plays from the drop zone instead of the tee.

For example, let's say the Parks Dept didn't get around to mowing a big grassy area along the whole left side of a fairway. You know players are going to yank shots in there and some will lose them just because it rained that week and the Park Dept couldn't mow properly. The TD can say that any discs lost will receive one penalty and players play from the drop zone which might be 200 feet in front of the tee instead of the tee. Even better, I can see specifying the short tee as the default drop zone for lost discs on every hole of some courses to keep it simple. This could really help on midwestern courses with lots of unmowed grassy areas at certain times of the year.

good idea... something for sure must be done.

isnt it silly that we have to start threads that instruct TDs on how to get around some very questionable rule changes that the RC came up with?

Are you sure that drop zones are permitted for lost discs?

<font color="blue">
803.11 Lost Disc
A. A disc shall be declared lost if the
player cannot locate it within three
minutes after arriving at the spot where it
was last seen by the group or an offi cial.
Two players or an offi cial must note when
the timing of three minutes begins. All
players of the group must, upon request,
assist in searching for the disc for the
full three minutes before the disc is
declared lost. The disc is considered lost
immediately upon the expiration of the
three minute time limit.
B. A player whose disc is declared lost
shall receive one penalty throw. If the
throw was made from the tee, the player
will re-tee for the next shot. If not made
from the tee, the group will determine
the approximate lie from which the throw
was made, and the player will throw again
from that lie. In all cases the original
throw plus one penalty throw shall be
counted in the player�s score.
C. If it is discovered prior to the
completion of the tournament, that a
player�s disc that was declared lost had
been removed or taken, then the player
shall have two throws removed from his
or her score.
D. A marker disc that is lost shall be
replaced in its approximate lie as agreed
to by a majority of the group or an offi cial
with no penalty.

</font>

<font color="blue">
804.01 Special Conditions
A. Rules governing special conditions that
may exist on the course shall be clearly
defi ned and disseminated to all players
prior to the start of the tournament.
All special conditions shall be covered
in the players' meeting. Each player is
responsible for adhering to all points
covered in the players' meeting.
B. The drop zone may be utilized in
special conditions. The director must
announce prior to the tournament how it
is to be used and if a penalty throw is to
be assessed. If no penalty is announced
prior to the tournament, none will be
assessed for use of the drop zone in
special conditions.
C. The two meter rule may be utilized
in special conditions. The director must
announce prior to the tournament how it
is to be used and if a penalty throw is to
be assessed. If no penalty is announced
prior to the tournament, none will be
assessed when a disc comes to rest two
meters or higher above the playing
surface. The director may declare the two
meter rule to be in effect for the entire
course, or just for individual obstacles.
D. No rules may be stipulated which
confl ict with the PDGA Rules of Play,
unless approved by the Competition
Director of the PDGA.

</font>

I can see how it would be argued either way, though it would seem that in some way adding a drop zone for a lost disc would be directly in conflict with the actual lost disc rule. Can special conditions be created to undermine clearly stated rules?

Just asking...

Someone should check with the PDGA RC.

good idea... something for sure must be done.

isnt it silly that we have to start threads that instruct TDs on how to get around some very questionable rule changes that the RC came up with?



No. Because the control is rightly in the hands of the folks that are actually at the course and know what the actual situation is . Not some blind doctrine that relies on guessing where a disc was last seen.

Hopefully this will result in better course preparation and design prior to PDGA events, an obvious benefit to PDGA Members and all participants.

Pat, what is in it for you in calling the work of other volunteers silly or otherwise malining it? Seriously why do you do it?

It's not a "lost disc", it's a disc that lands in a Special Conditions area that can't be found. If you find the disc, you play it in the Special Conditions area.

We've already discussed and gotten permission for using the 2005 version of the lost disc rule as a Special Conditions rule in 2006 when a disc is lost in snow.

Sounds good, just wanted to check before giving options.

why check with thefox when your job isto guard the henhouse?

besides, shouldnt the TD have total control over the areas to which he should apply this severe double jeopardy?

whats good for the 2MR is good for the lost tee shot.

if not, you need to explain why not.

Pat, what is in it for you in calling the work of other volunteers silly or otherwise malining it? Seriously why do you do it?

because i loath inconsistancy, especially in rules. double jeopardy was the single most compelling argument against the 2MR, now the RC is establishing a brand new double jeopardy situation. please note i have an enormous amount of respect for the individuals and their efforts... just not for the results. it IS possible for me to seperate a person from his/her behavior.

why check with thefox when your job isto guard the henhouse?

besides, shouldnt the TD have total control over the areas to which he should apply this severe double jeopardy?

whats good for the 2MR is good for the lost tee shot.

if not, you need to explain why not.



Because the 2MR no longer needs any special conditions. It is fully covered.

I am fine with using the special conditions rule to provide options approved for PDGA play, I am not in favor of using it to undermine existing and clearly written rules.

If Chuck says it is covered that is good enough for this discussion, I'd still like to see it answered in a Q & A though, if it has not already been.

(And yes, this would appear to be the first gray area of the new rules.)

It's not a "lost disc", it's a disc that lands in a Special Conditions area that can't be found.


That sounds like an attempt to intentionally circumvent the new rule with semantics.

No smiley.

It's not a "lost disc", it's a disc that lands in a Special Conditions area that can't be found. If you find the disc, you play it in the Special Conditions area.

We've already discussed and gotten permission for using the 2005 version of the lost disc rule as a Special Conditions rule in 2006 when a disc is lost in snow.



Question: Do you still use the lost disc rule to look for it?

After reading this thread I have another question. Who pays $15 for a disc and why?

OK, hardcore here. No smiley. The RC created a generally punitive rule but provided the option for TDs and designers to reduce the penalty where desired by using the Special Conditions rule. It's little different from the options TDs have to define areas OB (or not) or apply the 2-meter rule (or not). You can use them or "lose" them (humor intended).

If the "Special Condition" is that the Park Dept would not allow course designers to remove the pricker schule, hack out the woods or wasn't able to mow the grass, that's what the Special Conditions rule is there for.

The RC created a generally punitive rule but provided the option for TDs and designers to reduce the penalty where desired by using the Special Conditions rule.



Where is it stated that the PDGA RC permits this interpretation? Thanks.

The Special Conditions rule itself does not require permission.

i've got 50 bux that says nick proposes the special conditions rule be modified and/or eliminated, or that its application to your scenario be restricted by fiat.

nick, i switched my admin role to another account, so feel free to put me back on ignore at any time. :D

I can't see the RC particularly concerned with those who choose to use the Special Conditions rule with a drop zone. Consider that the primary reason for the lost disc rule change was to gain more consistency in how the penalty was applied. Returning to the tee was perceived to be the most consistent and also matches the revised unplayable rule and an OB option. A drop zone meets the same primary measure of treatment consistency as re-teeing, but with less severity.

Judging from the comments about whatever Nick might be saying, I must be agreeing with Nick. I don't think the Special Conditions rule is a gorilla clause that allows a TD to waive almost any rule he wants by declaring a special condition. The next sub-rule specifically says that a TD cannot change the rules.

At course where the course owner has a liquor license, can I declare a course special condition that alcohol purchased on the premises may be consumed during the round? Can I circumvent the new unplayable lie rule by declaring that all thorn plants are special conditions for which there is a drop zone with a one throw penalty five meters to the right or left of where you landed?

If Chuck's interpretation of the special condition rule is correct, the rule requiring a TD to get permission to change the rules is meaningless.

If you lose a disc in a casual relief area, you still follow the casual relief rule and not the lost disc rule. Likewise, if the 2-meter rule is in effect, you don't have to see the disc in the tree to follow the 2-meter penalty rule rather than lost disc. You can take a spray can and paint an OB area anywhere on the course or string yellow rope to create one. Using the Special Conditions rule to define an area such that a disc can be played from there if found or played from a drop zone if not found is exactly the optional way casual relief areas can be handled if a drop zone is specified. No rule is being changed or bypassed by the TD.

Chuck, try citing some rule language that leads to your conclusions.

Chuck, try citing some rule language that leads to your conclusions.



Chuck, I have to agree with Fat Lip Brakel, unless you can show within the rules as written, or a clarification by the Rules Committee, this does very much seem like an attempt to undermine the lost disc rule.

Playing it where it lies is one of the most fundamental rules in disc golf; if a player looses their disc, regardless of special conditions, the lost disc rule takes precidence. The only instance where it does not is as concerns Out of Bounds, where there are clear instructions on how to handle that situation and ruling.

Perhaps one of us should ask the PDGA RC about it and get an official answer. I suppose I can do it. Why don't you provide us with the scenario you would like me to send to them, as well as the question. The only absolutes are that the disc can't be located and the area is not OB.

"Playing it where it lies is one of the most fundamental rules in disc golf;"

so the 2MR WILL be in effect at all of nicks events after all! way to FINALLY understand the logic of the other side of the argument. it takes a big man to admit ones mistakes and act accordingly. i might have to change my opinion ofyou if this continues.

merry xmas.

Chuck, I have to agree with Fat Lip Brakel



Nick, if you keep resorting to childish names like that, I hope someone gives you a fat lip.

I'll make sure to make each players meeting. I'm sure for the first few tournaments this year , questions will still be asked about each course being played.

"Playing it where it lies is one of the most fundamental rules in disc golf;"

so the 2MR WILL be in effect at all of nicks events after all! way to FINALLY understand the logic of the other side of the argument. it takes a big man to admit ones mistakes and act accordingly. i might have to change my opinion ofyou if this continues.

merry xmas.



LOL!


800 Definitions: Lie: The spot on the playing surface upon which the player takes his or her stance in accordance with the rules.




803.08 Disc Above
The Playing Surface
A. If a disc comes to rest above the playing surface in a tree or other obstacle on the course, its lie shall be marked on the playing surface directly below it. If the point directly below the disc above the playing surface is an out-of-bounds area, the disc shall be declared out-ofbounds and marked and penalized in accordance with 803.09. If the playing surface directly below the disc is inside a tree or other solid obstacle, the lie shall be marked on the line of play immediately behind the tree or other solid obstacle.



By rule, even prior "great update" where the 2MR is off by default, our lie has always been on the playing surface; and I am glad to report that with the added definition of the "Playing Surface" it will remain there). Marking your lie on the playing surface does not involve moving your lie, only marking it. So, you ARE playing it where your lie is.

With a lost disc you don't know where your lie is prior to subsequent rulings... with a disc above the playing surface you do.

This current discussion is more along the lines of the two meter rule being in affect as it was in 2004 and a TD making a special condition that you don't take the penalty throw and move to a drop zone.

Just to stir the pot...

Nick wasnt it you that said on numerous occassions that in disc golf we NEVER actually play it where it lies since in order to do so we would have to kick the disc or somehting like that??... :p

OUCH!

good one scott, its like you gave US the gift even tho its YOUR b-day!

happy birthday!!!

Thanks! and your welcome :D

Just to stir the pot...

Nick wasnt it you that said on numerous occassions that in disc golf we NEVER actually play it where it lies since in order to do so we would have to kick the disc or somehting like that??... :p




So, you ARE playing it where your lie is.



We play from where our lie is marked. The only relation to the actual place where the disc came to rest is that it is directly below it on the playing surface. Is there something about that you need explained Scott?

No explaination needed for me, I fully understand where we play from and why,where, when and how.

Are we getting alittle overly sensitive to a little razzing today? :D

No explaination needed for me, I fully understand where we play from and why,where, when and how.

Are we getting alittle overly sensitive to a little razzing today? :D



No, just want to make sure we're communicating. The razzing here is so lite it doesn't even register on a scale of one to 10. Try playing a couple rounds with Tim Kady or Tom Transtrum, then you'll have your PhD in Razzing. :D;)

I try to tone it down when dealing with you old men...dont want to give you a heart attack or anything, if I did that then I would ruin Jeff's only reason for living and I dont want to be resposible for that...oops did i just say that outloud :p

I try to tone it down when dealing with you old men...dont want to give you a heart attack or anything, if I did that then I would ruin Jeff's only reason for living and I dont want to be resposible for that...oops did i just say that outloud :p



Welcome to the S List.

If you lose a disc in a casual relief area, you still follow the casual relief rule and not the lost disc rule. Likewise, if the 2-meter rule is in effect, you don't have to see the disc in the tree to follow the 2-meter penalty rule rather than lost disc. You can take a spray can and paint an OB area anywhere on the course or string yellow rope to create one. Using the Special Conditions rule to define an area such that a disc can be played from there if found or played from a drop zone if not found is exactly the optional way casual relief areas can be handled if a drop zone is specified. No rule is being changed or bypassed by the TD.



I sent this question to the PDGA RC concerning this topic. In my example the whole back 9 has been made a special condition for lost discs:


Lost Discs & Special Conditions Drop Zones

Under 2006 PDGA Rules is it permissible for a director to create a special condition by which a thrower whose disc has been properly declared lost shall add a penalty throw to their score and their next shot taken from a designated drop zone?

This does not concern OB. The director stipulated that on any hole on the back nine, due to high grass, where a thrower looses a disc shall take a one throw penalty and take their next shot from a drop zone. On holes 10 & 17 that is the tee pad, on the other holes drop zones have been marked. Is this ok to do?

Not to offend anyone, but this is the stupidest rule I've heard so far. So, you drive 300-400ft.- it hyzers out of site, following the fairway, and you get down there but the disc is no where to be found. You know it was an o.k to good shot(towards the basket), but it's gone. You're supposed to walk(or run) back to the tee, in the middle of play(at least for the rest of the group, which I'm sure has at least thrown once) and re-tee again instead of teeing at the bend in the fairway where it was last seen. Can anyone see how much this is going to slow down the sport? On top of that, in a tourney, you know the group behind you will be waiting for you to hurry up. Makes for a great driving situation, doesn't it(driving for 3 !!!)? Can you imagine throwing up or down extreme elevation just to walk back to the tee. Just plain dumb!!! :confused:

"Playing it where it lies is one of the most fundamental rules in disc golf;"

so the 2MR WILL be in effect at all of nicks events after all! way to FINALLY understand the logic of the other side of the argument. it takes a big man to admit ones mistakes and act accordingly. i might have to change my opinion ofyou if this continues.

merry xmas.



speaking of admitting mistakes, Pat, even back in the last century when the 2 meter rule was force fed -- discs suspended 1.9 meters up were not played where they lie -- but they once were played vertically below that spot. unless you start putting one support point of your throwing hand behind your mini -- you're NOT playing it where it lies.

Playing it by placing a support point behind where it landed on the x/y (and not z) planes sounds more appropos. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

after reading the response of others, the phrase --

"playing it from behind where it is marked on the playing surface" sounds about right
- - - -
bye bye force fed 2 meter rule -- don't let the door hit you in the arse

where is Gary's (gnduke) calm intelligent influence these days? Hopefully (for him) he is in Maui or something...

rob, i understand where you are coming from on that one, but since throwing a disc involves pulling it (roughly) across your upper torso/shoulders, you are actually throwing it from a lot closer to 2M than to the "lie".

Not to offend anyone, but this is the stupidest rule I've heard so far. So, you drive 300-400ft.- it hyzers out of site, following the fairway, and you get down there but the disc is no where to be found. You know it was an o.k to good shot(towards the basket), but it's gone. You're supposed to walk(or run) back to the tee, in the middle of play(at least for the rest of the group, which I'm sure has at least thrown once) and re-tee again instead of teeing at the bend in the fairway where it was last seen. Can anyone see how much this is going to slow down the sport? On top of that, in a tourney, you know the group behind you will be waiting for you to hurry up. Makes for a great driving situation, doesn't it(driving for 3 !!!)? Can you imagine throwing up or down extreme elevation just to walk back to the tee. Just plain dumb!!! :confused:



No offense taken George.

Let�s take a look at your example from a neutral standpoint:

<font color="blue"> So, you drive 300-400ft.- it hyzers out of site, following the fairway, and you get down there but the disc is no where to be found. You know it was an o.k to good shot(towards the basket), but it's gone. </font>
If the preferred landing area of a hole is as you describe out of sight, and this is a PDGA event, then a good host TD and club would more than likely provide a spotter. After all, areas of courses where discs are likely to get lost are fairly well know, aren�t they? And if the TD or club does not provide a spotter, wouldn�t an experienced PDGA disc golfer (or group of golfers) ask for someone in the group to please spot (this is standard in my region)? Still, as your example, and reality proves, discs still get lost.

<font color="blue"> You're supposed to walk(or run) back to the tee, in the middle of play(at least for the rest of the group, which I'm sure has at least thrown once) and re-tee again instead of teeing at the bend in the fairway where it was last seen.</font>

Yes, that is what you should do IF you have ignored the new provisional rule that states:

803. Rules of Play
803.01 General
C. Provisional Throws. Provisional throws
are extra throws that are not added to a
player�s score if they are not ultimately
used in completion of the hole. The use
of provisional throws is encouraged in
all situations where there is a question
regarding a thrower�s lie and a provisional
would speed play or when the thrower
questions the group�s or official�s ruling.
The unused throws shall not be added to
the thrower�s score nor treated as practice
throws if the player announces that such
additional throws are made as provisional
throws prior to taking them. Provisional
throws are appropriate in the following
circumstances:
(1) To save time: A player may declare a
provisional throw any time (a) the status of
a disc cannot immediately be determined,
and (b) the majority of the group agrees that
playing a provisional throw may save time,
and (c) the original throw may be out of
bounds, lost, or have missed a mandatory.
When proceeding under this type of
provisional the thrower shall complete the
hole from whichever of the two throws is
deemed by the group or an official as the
appropriate lie according to the rules.


I know that you would prefer to play from the point on the playing surface below which the disc was last seen, as decided by the group or an official, but is it really fairer considering the status and location of your disc is completely �unknown�? Is it really �fairer� for your direct competitors to decide where your next lie, in their opinion, should be?

<font color="blue"> Can anyone see how much this is going to slow down the sport? </font>
Possibly, but if this rule encourages TDs and local host clubs to provide more spotters, or groups to spot on holes where lost discs are likely, or for players to take provisional shots when the status of their disc is unknown, then there is substantial support for the idea that speed of play will actually increase under this new rule. And better than all of that, that there will be far fewer �Lost Discs�.

But for the sake of balance let�s say the rule does slow down play significantly; what will be the result of that?
A) TDs and Local Clubs knowing they have to provide more spotters?
B) Groups knowing they need to spot for themselves and possibly for other groups?
C) Greater use of provisional throws?
D) If all else fails, a revision to this rule? (I disagree that it is a certainty to slow down play and actually believe that it might end up increasing speed of play, but there is only one way to find out, right?)
<font color="blue"> On top of that, in a tourney, you know the group behind you will be waiting for you to hurry up. </font>
So long as your speed of play remains within the rules of play the group behind you must wait with utmost courtesy and not distract you in any way. An official warning of slow play by the TD or an Official is the only method provided by our rules for �hurrying up a group�. That and called excessive time penalties.

<font color="blue"> Makes for a great driving situation, doesn't it(driving for 3 !!!)? Can you imagine throwing up or down extreme elevation just to walk back to the tee. Just plain dumb!!! :confused: </font>
Again, perhaps dumb, perhaps justified. Where is your disc after all? Do you deserve the benefit of all that distance and elevation when the status and location of your disc is completely unknown (not ob, not found in a casual special condition area, but completely gone)? Why didn�t you have a spotter? Why didn�t you throw a provisional? If the hole is known as a lost disc haven then why didn�t the TD or local host club provide a spotter?

George, if the new rule is a failure as you predict, don�t you think the PDGA RC and BOD will correct it? Are you absolutely sure that it will fail as you predict? How will we know for sure?

Hope that was helpful.

And yes, where is Gary these days. I tried to do my best impersonation here� ;)

OK, and...

By that logic, how many people release the disc at 2M. Schweberger is the only one I can think of. So shouldn't the rule be the 1.2M rule?

There simply is no basis other than precident for this rule. If we were trying to add it now it would be laughed out of the sport before any serious consideration were given to it.

since throwing a disc involves pulling it (roughly) across your upper torso/shoulders, you are actually throwing it from a lot closer to 2M than to the "lie".



okay, so by your logic the 2 meter rule should have been the 4 meter rule. i might have been able to live with that one :p

I think this rule will be great for juniors looking to caddy on the Pro-Advanced day. How can you not afford to pick up a caddy when the lost disc rule is effectively 2 strokes AND you have to go back and maybe throw another disc into the same nasty schule that ate the first disc?

I think this rule will be great for juniors looking to caddy on the Pro-Advanced day. How can you not afford to pick up a caddy when the lost disc rule is effectively 2 strokes AND you have to go back and maybe throw another disc into the same nasty schule that ate the first disc?



Exactly Bruce, now you are getting it!

Better to do what it takes to not lose the disc in the first place than to have a lie based on guesswork and politics of your direct competitors particularly since there is no physical evidence of the location of your disc, nor of its status.

More spotters, greater courtesy in watching each others throws, group spotting where necessary, cleaned up shuel, and provisionals when the status is not known; increased speed of play is assured!

I knew you had it in you to admit when you have been wrong on something.

You make some good points but really, how many times does your group or a person walk down the fairway to spot for you. It seems, for the most part, that A tiers(NT) are the only tourneys that provide spotters. Are you supposed to walk down the fairway and spot for them and then walk back and drive yourself? Doesn't seem to practical. To say you need to throw a provisional every time a disc goes out of site(because you don't know if it's lost or not) is just silly. At the world dubs in Tx. there were numerous holes that you couldn't see where the disc ended up, are you supposed to throw twice on every one of those holes, I think you can see where I'm going. You are right, we'll see if this works, but I think it's going in the wrong direction. Disc On!!!

OK, and...

By that logic, how many people release the disc at 2M. Schweberger is the only one I can think of. So shouldn't the rule be the 1.2M rule?

There simply is no basis other than precident for this rule. If we were trying to add it now it would be laughed out of the sport before any serious consideration were given to it.

Nice spelling of that rather difficult name. It even looked as if you pronounced correctly... ;)

We spot all the time. The unsaid rule is that last on the card spots. The best second step is that the guy who has the box takes his place right away (I'll let you imagine the several good reasons that is better than waiting until everyone has teed off).

If I were a betting man, I'd bet the house that there will be fewer lost discs in 2006, and even with spotters going out on more holes, play speed will be increased.

('Shoe-Way-burger!')

Nick, when pointing out that the current lost rule is more fair and will speed up play, you state that players should send out a spotter (usually the bottom guy on the card). Firstly, sending a spotter out on any hole where a disc could be lost (and I agree that this is a good idea with this current rule), will in no way speed up play. Having a player walk up and back the fairway on a significant number of holes will slow play dramatically. But I don't think speed of play was the concern of the rules committee.

Now, the reason that this rule was implemented (as I understand it) was so that the lost discs would be treated fairly and consistently.

Because, "is it really fairer considering the status and location of your disc is completely �unknown�?" to trust your competitors to give you an honest and consistent appraisal of where your disc was last seen?

If this is your logic, then sending that implied untrustworthy competitor to spot is going to result in MORE lost discs. "It went way past that tree and then rolled to Greenland. I guess your disc is lost, and I just gained two strokes on you. Sorry I didn't spot it better."

If this rule is truly based on the presumption that golfers are not going to give a fair and consistent ruling, why would it then assume that golfers are going to help find a possibly lost disc? or spot accurately for a tee shot? I would rather the rules assume that we are a kinder gentler sort of golfer, rather than correct for a meaner golfer and then enact two other bad rules (expanded provisionals and special conditions) to make up for it.

I agree with Geo. Just plain dumb. And Geo, you may want to try Marshall Street's contest this month!

http://www.marshallstreetdiscgolf.com/contest.html

Steve,

Players spot for each other already, so them doing so now because a lost disc is an even more severe penalty, will not result in any increase in time to play. That players will all be more hyper aware of spotting for each other certainly should result in fewer lost discs.

I don't expect players to be dishonest. But why involve a judgement call when there is no need? There is a difference in spotting where another players disc landed and judging the spot on the playing surface over which it last was seen.

More times than not players are erring on the side of giving the player a break than screwing them, but why even mess with either possibility. What is to gain in overall fairness?

It is based on what all rules are based; Fair play, and anything we can do to increase that is good for the game. And there's nothing dumb about that.

But why involve a judgement call when there is no need?



My apologies Nick. I baited you. When a disc is thrown into a pond or over an OB road, there is an inherent judgement as to where the disc was last in bounds. And in some cases, the potential differences in opinion can be extreme.

Using your logic of not involving a judgement call, why wouldn't a disc that is thrown OB just go back to the spot the disc was thrown from with a stroke penalty?

Clearly the Rules Committee did not have a problem with this judgement call. Also, I have had cases, and have heard of many cases, where I threw a disc in the middle of a wide open, relatively well mowed fairway, and never found it!

Are you saying that it is fair and right (and quicker!) for this shot to be penalized worse than the errant OB shot?

And it is not for consistency and fairness sake, otherwise the OB shot, which involves a judgement call from the group, would also be treated in a "fair and consistent" manner.

I don't mind people explaining the logic behind the rules. I just think the explanations should hold water. Try again.

What he said.....

I think the options should more closely mimic the OB options.

As was the case several years ago before OB added the options of last lie and drop zone.

[quote
<font color="blue"> Makes for a great driving situation, doesn't it(driving for 3 !!!)? Can you imagine throwing up or down extreme elevation just to walk back to the tee. Just plain dumb!!! :confused: </font>
Again, perhaps dumb, perhaps justified. Where is your disc after all? Do you deserve the benefit of all that distance and elevation when the status and location of your disc is completely unknown (not ob, not found in a casual special condition area, but completely gone)? Why didn�t you have a spotter? Why didn�t you throw a provisional? If the hole is known as a lost disc haven then why didn�t the TD or local host club provide a spotter?



[/QUOTE]

So, I crush my drive, it sails down the fairway, hizers out around the dog leg, Great shot! Your saying I need to throw a provisional shot, just to make certain I can find my first drive? Do I need to throw a provisional shot on every throw... just to gurantee I can find my disc. What happens if I find my 1st disc, but am unable to find my "provisional throw"?

A question: I throw over water (hole 16 at Round Rock), the water is declared OB, and my disc splashes down, right in the middle of the pond. Is it lost? I know where it is, but I can't see it, nor reach it from the bank, and I am not intrested in going swimming during my round. Is this disc lost?

I've been in this pond trying to retrive a disc durring casual golf, I've pulled plenty of discs out of this pond without finding "my disc". Is it "lost" or misplaced OB?

really, I need to know.

And imagine if your lost disc occured from a throw other than the tee. Who decides where you threw from? In many cases, after searching for three minutes in the schule, it is going to be tough to figure out exactly where your last throw was from.

So, I crush my drive, it sails down the fairway, hizers out around the dog leg, Great shot! Your saying I need to throw a provisional shot, just to make certain I can find my first drive? Do I need to throw a provisional shot on every throw... just to gurantee I can find my disc. What happens if I find my 1st disc, but am unable to find my "provisional throw"?





And imagine if your lost disc occured from a throw other than the tee. Who decides where you threw from? In many cases, after searching for three minutes in the schule, it is going to be tough to figure out exactly where your last throw was from.



From where I stand these two quotes are more then enough to show that this rule is overly punitive, causes confusion, still cause guesstimates on a lie, and should be returned back to the pre 06 version of the rule.

None of those questions are toughies if you just read the rules.

803.10 LOST DISC
A. A disc shall be declared lost if the player cannot locate it within three minutes after arriving at the spot where it was last seen by the group or an official. Two players or an official must note when the timing of three minutes begins. All players of the group must, upon request, assist in searching for the disc for the full three minutes before the disc is declared lost. The disc is considered lost immediately upon the expiration of the three minute time limit.

B. A player whose disc is declared lost, shall receive one penalty throw. The approximate lie for the player's next shot shall be marked in-bounds nearest the spot where the disc was last seen , as agreed to by a majority of the group or an official.

The above was copied from the PDGA web site Rules link.

So I guess you are correct, by reading the rules I now know that this tread about lost disc being penalized by stroke and rethrow from last spot was just an internet myth. :confused:

Was there somewhere else I should be looking? I did not see anything in 803.08 O.B. relating to my O.B. disc being "lost" and having to re-tee.

I think you are quoting the rule before it was changed. To find the new rules click Home, directly above. Then on the home page, in the box on the right, click 2006 PDGA Rules of Disc Golf (Effective 1/1/2006).

what bruce said...twice...errr used to be twice......what the heck happened there??...lol

What he said. Twice.

Goto the front page of this site and click on the link to the .PDF file that has the 06 rules, it is located in the box on the right.

This new rule is troubling to me.

I play a course that has about 2-3ft of water running through the entire course. Usually you can see the disc in the water and retrieve it, but if the water is stirred up it is a goner unless you choose to go in and get it.

Now on Monday I threw into the water and it was murky..since I could not see my disc in there I couldn't play it as OB and had to reshoot it for being a lost disc.

Just doesn't seem right IMO

Disc are not lost (at least in terms of the rules) in an OB area. The OB rules take precedence. So, murky or not makes no difference other than you being able to find your disc and continue to use it.

OB over-rules lost disc? Where does it say that?

That would be great, but as normal the rules are not entirely clear on the subject.

What would the difference be if it was casual water and I couldn't find the disc even though I knew exactly where it went in?

Do I have to rethrow in that case?

Thank for the help in advance Chuck

So your telling me that clicking the link at the top of "this" page, (the one that says "Rules") is takng me to the'05 rules?

Holy freak'en (yeah I'm a potty mouth, you don't have to tell me or anyone that knows me).

Thank you, I will go to the home page, try and get a link to the '06 rules and see if I can answer my own questions. But still, this has got to be fixed,

Help'em out Pat.

I don't often even try to post to the rules treads but, certainly the link at the top of evey web page in DISCussion for Rules should be re-directed to the most current version.

OB over-rules lost disc? Where does it say that?



It's in the definition of OB in the Glossary. In the regular OB section of the rules, there has to be reasonable evidence that the disc went in the OB area though. otherwise, the lost disc rule is used.

I don't often even try to post to the rules treads but, certainly the link at the top of evey web page in DISCussion for Rules should be re-directed to the most current version.



I think Pat already posted before that he was working on it. It takes a little work to set it up so the little popup windows work like they did for 2005.

Good deal..what about the other question


What would the difference be if it was casual water and I couldn't find the disc even though I knew exactly where it went in?

conrad is working on getting the current rules input into the searchable rules feature. it will be soon.

If the group agrees a disc lands in a casual area then the casual relief rule applies. For example, a patch of poison ivy might be identified as a casual relief area. Lots of times, you might not see your disc in there but saw it go in. We have big casual relief marshes in MN with drop zones and no penalty as long as the group sees the disc disappear in it.

IMO it's no problem to have the lost disc option of the new rule, but to have it as the only play is wrong. If the player gets to choose the group consensus on where it was last seen, or to throw from the approximate last lie, the rule would be fine. In two cases that I can think of right away, the new rule would be unfair/cruel. Both are on a hole like Snowbowl 18 at Flagstaff or a similar hole that is way downhill and very long. This is a popular design. To throw a shot, expect to find it somewhere near the pin, fail to find it is one case. And the second, after descending several hundred feet, then have to walk/trudge/scale/hike/die back up that hill, is ridiculously unfair. The disc should be located close to where everyone saw it land. Forcing someone to climb back up a mountain not only sucks, but is going to take a lot of time. To throw multiple provisional shots is also wrong and potentially very time consuming and brings up more issues than it would solve. The PDGA and the rules committee need to get together and issue a statement that TDs can, at their discretion, allow both choices. This would be a temporary fix to a boo boo. Next rule book can incorporate the change.

This last post was not meant to denigrate the dedicate rules committee members who do a great job. This was just an oversight. Everyone makes mistakes eventually. This was half a mistake.

This has already been discussed at length and I haven't seen any convincing arguments to change my conclusions then.

OB and Lost Disc are different situations.
OB and Lost Disc are different rules.
As they should be. Why?
Because the status and location is completely unknown in the one case and not in the other.
Losing your disc is a total break from the concept of fewest throws to complete the course. How can you really know how many throws it would have taken since you couldn't even locate your competitively thrown disc? I know that it is not a purposefully cheating type of infraction, but as far as this type of rule goes few are more aggregious.

The option to play it from the spot on the playing surface below where folks saw it last, does not bring the rules any closer to being fair, it anything it just compounds the problem. Again, OB has a parameter that is 100% known and the subsequent lie will be within 1 meter of that known boundary, there is no such constant in last seen.

If it was last seen above a 20 foot high by 60 foot round thorn bush, is anyone in the group going to say that the throwers lost disc lie is in the center of that bush? Why should such calls even be necessary? Take your stroke and throw again.

Dave, in the two situations you describe:
A) There should be an event staff person spotting on such holes, and if they see that there is a question as to whether the disc will be able to be found or not they can advise the thrower to take a provisional.
B) If there is no spotter and the disc heads towards an area known for lost discs the thrower can take a provisional.
C) If the disc is lost, even after that, walking back to the previous lie (the tee in this case) and throwing again is preferrable, in my opinion, to folks totally guessing where they last saw the disc and likely erring on the side of cutting the guy a break.

A lost disc is a major infraction. I hope the result of this rule is:
1) Better hole design to reduce lost discs.
2) Better courtesy with all in the group watching each players throw to reduce lost discs (and assist in other compliance issues).
3) Better event staffing of spotters on trouble holes to avoid lost discs.
4) Groups sending out spotters where needed to avoid lost discs (something they should already be used to).
5) An increase in speed of play due to better practices surrounding watching discs thrown in play by all involved.

The PDGA Rules Committee got this right and I praise them for their clarity and forethought.

Chuck, declaring an area as casual has no affect on the lost disc rule. Special Conditions may not conflict PDGA Rules. If a TD wants to use such an option they must petition the PDGA Competition Director and get prior approval. If the situations Dave says are so extreme warrant special rules considerations (and I think this would be extremely rare indeed), the TD can ask for permission to use some special ruling and announce it at the players meeting.

The "last place seen" has been a mess for years. Most folks I know didn't understand it at all. They thought that you could try and extrapolate where the disc "would have gone" and mark it there and had no idea that the first step is to make a group determination as to where it was last seen before looking for it. More than any of that is that 50% of the time folks don't pay enough attention to each other and the full flight of the disc.

All of this should immediately improve under the new rule.

Chuck, declaring an area as casual has no affect on the lost disc rule. Special Conditions may not conflict PDGA Rules. If a TD wants to use such an option they must petition the PDGA Competition Director and get prior approval. If the situations Dave says are so extreme warrant special rules considerations (and I think this would be extremely rare indeed), the TD can ask for permission to use some special ruling and announce it at the players meeting.



I'm not sure how this relates to Dave's post but my comment about casual relief and lost discs is valid. If we declare a marsh to be casual, primarily because we can't possibly mark the illdefined boundaries around it as OB, then any disc thrown in there gets casual relief to the drop zone without penalty whether it can be seen or not (usually not).

Dave has a perfectly valid example of the potential problem with the new lost disc rule which in fact triggered my initial post to start this thread. In the Snowbowl case though, which Dave may have forgotten, they marked both sides of the ski run with rope within maybe 200 feet of the basket so any shot in the woods on either side was OB.

We have few holes with steep slopes at Highbridge and Chappy (RC member) has already indicated my approach using the Special Conditions option would solve the problem (although he hasn't granted this as a blanket rule exemption), which is to have players throw from the known position of the shorter Red tee (much farther down the hill) if their tee shot from the long tee ends up lost.

I'm not sure how this relates to Dave's post but my comment about casual relief and lost discs is valid. If we declare a marsh to be casual, primarily because we can't possibly mark the illdefined boundaries around it as OB, then any disc thrown in there gets casual relief to the drop zone without penalty whether it can be seen or not (usually not).



This would be incorrect. You still must locate (not retrieve) your disc in casual areas in order to avoid the lost disc penalty; unlike OB where that is not necessary.

I can repost the PDGA RC answer if you'd like, it might be in this very same thread back a ways.

This would be incorrect. You still must locate (not retrieve) your disc in casual areas in order to avoid the lost disc penalty; unlike OB where that is not necessary.



Not true. Our marsh problem is what lead to the specific wording for using drop zones under Special Conditions. I worked with Carlton and the RC on this rule which got in the 1997 rulebook. There's no requirement to find a disc that lands in casual relief areas for the very reason these areas are marked for casual relief. It makes no sense to require someone to locate a disc in poison ivy or near a bee hive that is supposed to be avoided in the first place. The group or spotter just has to agree that the disc went in the casual relief area.

I don't want to argue with you Chuck. Please send your specific scenario to the PDGA RC to get an answer. We don't want to confuse folks here.

Here are the exact messages as they read:

Subject[PDGA] Rules Committee: Lost Discs & Special Conditions Drop Zones
Name: Nick Kight
Pdga number: 4861

Message:

Lost Discs & Special Conditions Drop Zones

Under 2006 PDGA Rules is it permissible for a director to create a special condition by which a thrower whose disc has been properly declared lost shall add a penalty throw to their score and their next shot taken from a designated drop zone?

This does not concern OB. The director stipulated that on any hole on the back nine, due to high grass, where a thrower looses a disc shall take a one throw penalty and take their next shot from a drop zone. On holes 10 & 17 that is the tee pad, on the other holes drop zones have been marked. Is this ok to do?

Thank you for your consideration.


<font color="blue">Dear Nick,

No, it is not permissible, UNLESS the TD applied for an exemption with the Competition Director prior to the event.

Of course this could be done on holes 10 & 17 without that application.

Naturally, if it's not a PDGA sanctioned event (club monthly, etc) then the TD could do whatever they wanted.

Yours Sincerely;

Carlton Howard
PDGA Rules Committee Chairman</font>

In a subsequent email he confirmed that this will be included in the soon to be published Q & As also.

The way you worded the question to Carlton is not the nature of the Special Condition which would be handled the same as OB. In your question, you state the disc has been 'properly declared lost.'

However, if a TD specifies that a disc thrown into an area is either played from a drop zone with a penalty or it can be played from the lie, then the disc is never 'declared lost' and does not violate the lost disc rule. It's the same as a disc that goes into an OB area, it is not 'declared as lost' even if it is. The OB rule takes precedence. See the difference?

Carlton is getting old and his memory may be fading. But the marsh rule is absolutely a primary reason for the Special Conditions drop zone option in the 1997 rules. I had been lobbying for several years before that because a player had to take a 3-shot penalty for a disc suspended above 2 meters in a tree in a huge casual relief marsh. He took one shot penalty for the 2m and 2 more shots to get out of the marsh. Might be one of the worst penalized shots in PDGA history.

So then again...without being as long worded as you two...with your "drop zones"....if you can't find the disc and put it back in your bag..it is lost..correct :confused:

I knew where it went OB, but I couldn't locate it...

If OB out-trumps lost disc..great..but I think this will lead to a large # of discussions/arguements on cards

I understand not allowing a player to "guess"..where the disc may have gone, but in an OB situation where you can not find the disc..what do you do

and vice versu on a lost disc that you thought was in bounds on its lie...

seems to be a contradiction in the rules there

i say as long as TDs can change the rules, a la mixing divisions and so on, at will and with no consequence, as they certainly do now, then they sure oughta be able to reinject sanity into the rules and provide the option to play lost discs at the point where the disc was last seen, as agreed by the group if they wish.

after all, the TD knows best, right?

I dug back in the email archives and found this from Carlton in Nov 2000. Pertaining to my request on the marsh problem, he was consistent with his response above but with one difference:

Carlton: "The disc is lost. Again, the TD can make an exception for local conditions...like at Inver Grove. Special conditions already gives the TD leeway to handle this. I'm not sure if the rules need to address this specifically or not."

This dialog lead to the current wording for Special Conditions that includes the drop zone which wasn't in the rules prior to the 2001 (not 1997) update.

and if the TD is not completely clear and just states "PDGA rules apply"....this rule itself is up to many interpertations as shown :confused:

I agree with Dave on this one. The RC got it wrong pertaining to the lost disc rule. The OB rule is o.k., but the lost disc rule is just wrong. How many provisionals are you supposed to throw? Hope people don't lose more than one disc. There should be another option.

How many times do you encounter a lost disc scenario per round? Holes where it is likely to happen can be addresed with spotters or by strategy. it's risk/reward. If you lose your disc, it was your throw that got you into the mess. Throw again and this time don't lose it. ... :confused: ...

Adam, you keep bring this up, but it is clearly stated in the new rules (803.9.A)

In order to consider the disc as outof-
bounds, there must be reasonable
evidence that the disc came to rest within
the out-of-bounds area. In the absence of
such evidence, the disc will be considered
lost and the player will proceed according
to rule 803.11B.



If the disc was last seen heading for OB, and it can't be found short of the OB, then that is usually reasonable evidence that it reached the OB.

Back to what Dave was talking about. In the past, OB and Lost disc were virtually the same penalty. You marked where it was last seen (inbounds) took a stroke and played on.

By making one more punitive than the other, you bring into play many situations where it will be in the players interest to lobby for an OB condition instead of looking in earnest for his disc when OB is nearby. Or the group insisting that the disc did not reach the OB even when it can not be found in the mowed grass short of the OB. If the penalty for both is basically the same, then there is no reason to argue for one over the other. After all, they are both usually the result of the same throwing error.

Skimming through this thread, I must admit I'm a bit confused (easily done).

Where's the "risk/reward" issue?

If I'm stepping up to a shot where my disc might go OB or get lost I tend to try to think like the ball golfers and maybe pull out a three wood or an iron or their counterpart to make a shorter but hopefully more accurate shot. Streams winding through the fairway? Don't throw into them. Thick stuff on the left, don't go there without fear of a big penalty. This is, afterall, GOLF, not a series of distance competitions with eighteen baskets at the end of each leg.

Oh, and when you yank a throw, don't turn around and start kicking things forgetting to keep an extra close eye on it. (done that one WAY too many times)




Carry on......

How many times do you encounter a lost disc scenario per round? Holes where it is likely to happen can be addresed with spotters or by strategy. it's risk/reward. If you lose your disc, it was your throw that got you into the mess. Throw again and this time don't lose it. ... :confused: ...

frequency of occurance is no defense for a bad rule

spotters are not available in the quantities necessary

what is a "strategy" for not losing a disc? half the lost disc cases i've been a part of have involved losing a disc the landed pretty much in plain sight and left us all wondering if the bermuda triangle was involved

blaming it on the player is releveant in maybe half the cases.

throwing again, even more carefully, does not mean it wont happen again. it DOES mean that play will be significantly slowed.

this is a bad rule and the rethrow should be an option.

Not all lost disc scenarios are the same. To call them all egregious infractions, as has been said earlier in this thread, is not fair. A lost disc on the fairway, is different from a lost disc off the fairway. I don't have much sympathy for the errant throw that goes into the thick or down the side of a mountain. Suck up a couple of throws and shoot again. You're probably better off anyway. However, a shot that gets high fives, where everyone is expecting the disc to be fabulously positioned, is a totally different scenario in my mind. It's a shame that it can't be found and it is not the player's fault that the course needs to be redesigned as has been suggested. Common sense tells me that the player is entitled to a favorable lie in this scenario, as he has eaten a very unexpected penalty stroke. To give him another stroke by sending him back to his original lie just to avoid him getting a break with a lie after he has eaten a stroke, doesn't sound fair to me. Making the rules proceedure easier and clearer does not mean the rule is fairer necessarily.

i think we agree

Yes we do. I was actually responding to Nick, but I was too challenged to specifically quote his assumptions and assertions. I think Nick's argument boils down to his distaste for a player getting a favorable spot on a lost disc placement, even though the player has already taken a penalty stroke. From my point of view, this is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I think I've figured out a way to use the Special Conditions rule option and avoid messing with the Lost Disc rule. Here's an example hole at Highbridge which is a smaller scale version of the steep long hole at Snowbowl Dave was referring to. You can see footages to the different pins and a photograph from the Blue tee in the lower right. It doesn't convey how steep the throw is which is about 40 ft drop to the B pin. The Red tee to the left is maybe 20 feet lower.
http://hometown.aol.com/ck34/images/gr3%20graphic.jpg

As a TD using the Special Condition rule 804.01A&B, I can state that the player has the option to take a 1-throw penalty for any throw that the group agrees is shanked into the tree line on either side of the fairway and play from the drop zone which is the Red tee. Or, play their shot from the lie where they find it with no penalty. The key is that they have to make the drop zone choice BEFORE the 3 minutes has expired looking for their disc. Once 3 minutes is up, the disc is officially 'declared lost' and they must go back to the long Blue tee and receive a 1-throw penalty per the lost disc rule.

Call this the 2:59 option but I believe it meets the conditions specified for Special Conditions and doesn't violate the lost disc rule.

LOL. I have no doubt that Chuck CAN declare rules like that. Harold, too. The rest of us are somewhat constrained by 804.01(D) and 803.01(A). :D But lead the way, and then we can say, "Well, if you allow it at Highbridge, you can't say it is against the rules somewhere else."

Show how my approach violates 804.01D or 803.01A. Frankly, it shouldn't make any difference whether the disc is found. But the 2:59 option is just in case the RC objects to reasonableness of a disc being located in a Special Conditions area as opposed to being 'declared lost' which is the key element of the lost disc rule.

It's considered reasonable to lose a disc in an OB area and have the OB penalty rule be the one that counts. The missed mando rule takes precedence over lost disc. As long as the group is reasonably certain of a disc's location, that rule takes precedence over lost disc in every case. A Special Condition location should work the same way if the group is reasonably sure the disc is located in that area.

The one rule says a TD cannot make up rules that vary from the existing rules. The other rule says you have to play the disc where it lies.

The disc went into that line of trees. For the rest of us the rules say that if you can find it there, you play it there, or take relief under the unplayable lie rule or any other rule allowing relief. If you cannot find it there you play it from where you last threw it with a penalty.

Since the rules specify generally that you play it where it lies, and also specify the exceptions for when you can play a disc from somewhere other than where it lies, and further when you must play it from somewhere other than it lies, I think you are violating 804D by making up new rules for when you can play it from somewhere other than where it lies.

Players should remember that taking a provisional before checking on the status of a disc is almost always a sucker move. I'm not talking about the provisional for when there is a rules dispute but the provisional for when you are uncertain as to whether the disc is lost, o.b. or missed a mando. I can elaborate, but if you think about it, you will see that that is true.

Players should remember that taking a provisional before checking on the status of a disc is almost always a sucker move. I'm not talking about the provisional for when there is a rules dispute but the provisional for when you are uncertain as to whether the disc is lost, o.b. or missed a mando. I can elaborate, but if you think about it, you will see that that is true.



No doubt...thanks for bringing that up...i never thought of it that way.

Hey, could I get your little emoticon dude to try to fix my avatar? The website hosting that picture converted to another software system and lost my avatars. :(

The whole purpose of the Special Conditions rule is to specify locations where you do not (necessarily) play it where it lies just like OB or casual areas. No making up rules, just following the options provided for TDs.

In fact, give an example of how you would legally use the Special Conditions rule if you consider my example violating the rules.

Sorry, he is union, it is out of my hands.

The phrase "special conditions" is not defined in the glossary so there is no way to know what the rules committee meant by that if they did not mean conditions unique to that course. Disc eating schule or tall grass seems more like ordinary conditions to me that are well covered by the rules.

The first special conditions that come to my mind are the no retrieval zones at Rum Village, Jackson Community College and Fairfield. You may not climb the fence. If you do you are discqualified. If you throw your disc over that fence, kiss it good bye. At Jackson Community College I think they use a drop zone with the special condition area.

I've also played tournaments where they had no-play-no-penalty-zones, but these weren't amorphous areas left to the players' discretion. These were protected wetlands or wildflower areas or private property that would be difficult to mark o.b. because of their size or inaccessiblity or because the park did not want anyone marking a line and starting a line dispute with the private property owner. It is hard to call an area o.b. if the park does not want you marking a line, but it is easy to say, "If you are in the beans on 18, walk the disc out two meters and play from there without a penalty."

Look at all the confusion this has caused already, and the rules are only 20 days old. To make all TDs call out "special conditions" means that people in different parts of the country are going to play different. The rule should be kept how it was, play it where last seen.

Look at all the confusion this has caused already, and the rules are only 20 days old. To make all TDs call out "special conditions" means that people in different parts of the country are going to play different. The rule should be kept how it was, play it where last seen.



Confusion when it constantly changes.