In 2006 the PDGA is expanding the zone of exclusion for A-tiers to 500 miles from B-tiers. What does that mean for tournaments in your state?

There are 17 weeks from April through the end of July. In 2006, of those 17 weeks it will be possible to have a B-tier in northern Illinois on only three of them. Three! And that is assuming that they quit running tournaments in Wisconsin and Indiana because B-tiers have to be 200 miles apart.

Is anyone actually running this organization? This is insane.

but if they raise the non member fee to $250 they will make up for it in volume :D

In 2006 the PDGA is expanding the zone of exclusion for A-tiers to 500 miles from B-tiers.



I'd just like to know the reasoning behind it.
Who benefits?
The quality of the average B-Tier has improved in recent years, but usually not enough to draw away from an A-Tier.

No one benefits from this. Its just another example of them pulling pie-in-the-sky numbers out of their wazoos without thinking what it actually means. If someone had said, "I know, let's make it impossible to run a B-tier in most places most of the time," you have to suspect that they would have said, "Hmmm, maybe that is not such a good idea." "But don't you think it would be cool if Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Wisconsin more or less could not have a B-tier in the first four months of the season?" "Ummm, no we would lose a lot of money with that plan." "Oh."

If I can't get to the players meeting leaving my house that morning, it's just not gonna happen. I'm not going to drive to anything over 120 miles away, a 500 mile exclusion seems excessive.

so if we hold an a tier here in spotsylvania va, there should not be a b tier anywhere between new york city and the georgia state line, or west to columbus ohio.:confused: one plus one equals three once again. shouldn't take long for this one to be rescinded.

so if we hold an a tier here in spotsylvania va, there should not be a b tier anywhere between new york city and the georgia state line, or west to columbus ohio.:confused: one plus one equals three once again. shouldn't take long for this one to be rescinded.



So then rescind it already John. Why should the Tour Manager do it when it is entirely up to you, the TD, as it should be? Would you prefer for yourself not to have control over this?

All that is required is that the TD of the higher tiered event OK the lower tiered event within the exclusion zone.

Is it 500 miles straight-line (as a crow flies) or driving distance?
I say driving distance since very few of us are crows or own helicopters.

I have always figured the restrictions on driving distance in Texas.

That's all well and good for TX, but are you and the surrounding states communicating when these events (A-tiers) are set up i.e., TX States would make an Am exclusion area for B-tiers into MS, AR, OK, AL, and all of LA.

500 miles does seem a little excessive, even for out here in the wide open areas. :D

That's all well and good for TX, but are you and the surrounding states communicating when these events (A-tiers) are set up i.e., TX States would make an Am exclusion area for B-tiers into MS, AR, OK, AL, and all of LA.

500 miles does seem a little excessive, even for out here in the wide open areas. :D



Hey, El Paso and Lubbock are clear that weekend! :)

Seems stupid to me.

We cannot hold a B-Tier event here in Birmingham Alabama, if Indianapolis Indiana is holding an A-Tier.


Please show me how we in Birmingham will adversely affect a tournament in Indianapolis???

Terrible Rule, what is our sanctioning body thinking? I thought they want to promote this sport and encourage more people to come out and play in tournaments? Just looking at the last couple of months, the weekend of the West Virgina Open A-tier there was nealry 70 players out for the B-tier in Hickory, NC the same weekend, this would not have flown with the new 500 mile rule. Likewise Columbia, SC had a great turnout the same weekend of the Sneekey Pete in Burlington, NC, again, and again, this wouldn't have happened with the 500 mile rule. I know they want to try and "encourage" (make?) folks to play the NT events, but this is crazy. What is better : having more pros at the NT events or having new tournament players at the smaller tournaments?
(HINT: possible new members = more registration $$$)

If you look at the rule, it puts control in the hands of the A-tier TD, not the PDGA. All it does is allow the A-tier TD a way to prevent events that would traditionally be too close to their event, not all of them within 500 miles. I'm not sure WV would restrict an NC B-tier, or one in Birmingham. It will get TDs talking and sorting things out beyond state borders primarily for high tier events.

state boundaries shouldnt have anything to do with it.

whether or not its true, it FEELS likethe pdga is trying to FORCE players into one event or another and PREVENT them from having options.

and that, my firends, is one more recipe for creatiing alternatives or de-sanctioning events. neither is good for the pdga.

if the goal is to boost A tiers and majors, ther have got to be better ways than forbidding (or even creating the option to forbid regardless of who takes the balme for doing the actual forbidding) events within such a huge radius.

force does not work.

If I understand this correctly, it will be up to the A tiered events to clear the way for other events in their 500 mile radius. Then it will be up to the B tiered events to clear the way for the C tiered events and so on and so on.........

I dont really see an issue here unless there is no communication set up between the controling forces of such things. Im assuming this will come down to the respective state coordinators?

If you look at the rule, it puts control in the hands of the A-tier TD, not the PDGA. All it does is allow the A-tier TD a way to prevent events that would traditionally be too close to their event, not all of them within 500 miles. I'm not sure WV would restrict an NC B-tier, or one in Birmingham. It will get TDs talking and sorting things out beyond state borders primarily for high tier events.



So will the B-tiers have to get written permission from the A-tier TD or how will it work for the PDGA to know it has been worked out before they go and sanction the B-tier. :confused:

I'm just really curious about the logistics and how David G. or whomever within the PDGA will know for certain the A-tier TD has no problem with the B-tier event.

You hit the nail on the head, JP!

I think it should be a 1000 mile exclusion zone so if there was an atier in East Texas it would be the only sanctioned event that weekend and everyone would show up, even from El Paso. (see the reasoning? more players =better tourney= more payout, or something like that.

This is an example of the logic behind this rule, too bad the logic is flawed, maybe a 100 mile exclusion would work but thats pushing it.

I know guys that would rather stay and play their local mini in Dallas rather than drive and play an A tier in Austin. Less money to sign up=more players=more payout and no sanction fees. Wheres the logic there?

So everyone's on the same page, here's a simplified table for 2006. The notes that go along with this are key and are posted below. You can submit sanctioning against higher tier events that are inside the radius and Chappy or Dave can allow it even if the TD of the higher tier event isn't involved (although I'm sure they will try to include them in the decision)

2006 Minimum Distance Table

<table border="1"><tr><td> Tier</td><td>A</td><td>B</td><td>C &amp; D
</td></tr><tr><td>Major</td><td>Not allowed</td><td>500</td><td>500
</td></tr><tr><td>National Tour</td><td>1500</td><td>500</td><td>500
</td></tr><tr><td>A</td><td>Pro 1000 Am 750</td><td>500</td><td>250
</td></tr><tr><td>B</td><td>.</td><td>250</td><td>100
</td></tr><tr><td>C &amp; D</td><td>.</td><td>.</td><td>50
</td></tr><tr><td> </tr></td></table>
* When one event only offers Pro divisions and another only Am divisions on the same weekend, there is no conflict. Where events are closer than the distances indicated, the higher tiered TD, Tour Manager, or Competition Director, may elect to have the protected radius waived.

ok, i'm getting more confused...


You can submit sanctioning against higher tier events that are inside the radius and Chappy or Dave can allow it ...

um, so whats the point then if it can be allowed?


even if the TD of the higher tier event isn't involved (although I'm sure they will try to include them in the decision)



oh, so someone "decides".

what are the criteria for the "decision"? or is it whatever the deciders feel likethat day?

If the decision could be automated, we wouldn't need a real person in charge of sorting out the various factors involved. As others have pointed out, cars can't follow the crow and certain events historically draw from some directions more than others.

heh heh, i'd love to be the fly on the wall when those discussions take place.

The way it has worked in the past is that there has been virtually no enforcement when TDs have not acted in a self-regulated manner. To the contrary, usually the TD with the ZOE feels like the office is pressuring him to allow the other TD to sanction his event, if he raises the issue.

Last year we self-regulated, got the concession from the DGLO provided that we would do our B/C-tier as a C-tier, and that was the only conflict. All around us other TDs jumped on our dates most weekends, and we mostly did not care because they were mostly outside our realistic market. An unsanctioned event on a good course run by a good TD is as much competition for us as any of the sanctioned stuff we compete against anyway.

A couple years before that, I could not get approval for a local C-tier doubles thing from the NT 250+ miles away. Since I do tournaments in a bunch of different places, I just won't say 250 miles away from where. Besides if I were doing an A-tier, I'd insist on my ZOE no matter how ridiculous it was.

If it is business-as-usual this year, it is a big not-to-worry. But it does not make sense that you'd change a rule to make it more stringent, and then be that much more relaxed in enforcing it. The 500 miles itself makes no sense. No one running a good event needs 500 miles.

Since the whole thing does not make sense so many different ways, TDs who sweat the details, like my brother Jon, worry about stuff like this. But it is my job to post because I got the A's in creative writing.

:D

along with your A in creative writing, i suggest we give the rule an A in Convolution

Now that the message board is dead, it is probably pointless to even discuss this, but can any math impaired folks guess how much bigger of an area a 500 mile radius is than a 300 mile radius? I'll give you a hint: Pie are squared.

The biggest issue I see with all of this is on the hands of the state coordinators. Heck we already know some of them cant even get completed events in on time, now were going to expect them to communicate amongst themselves to regulate this? I foresee some real issues on the horizon with this one. Bruce you gave one up earlier this year didnt you?

A 300-mile radius for A-tiers would make more sense, and would cover only a little more than 1/3 of the area of the 500-mile radius.

I'll give you a hint: Pie are squared.



Here in Alabama, the home grown locals tell me that "Paye are rond"

now were going to expect them to communicate amongst themselves to regulate this?


I think a lot of the point here is for more opportunity for communication between State Coordinators and the TD, the TD and the PDGA, etc. As I know of it right now, there are few state coordinators who have direction within their job description or if they even have been made aware of what their job is.
The exclusion area is meant to encourage folks to travel to some of the bigger tournaments and not be disgruntled by taking your ball home running a non-sanctioned event.
As pointed out, some of the zones are unrealistic in several areas of America and so you must COMMUNICATE, find another date, work together, simple eh?

Simple in theory, but unrealistic.
There are still plenty of TDs who do not report an event's results in a timely manner.
This seemingly simple rule will not reult in better communication, but it may result in a few events being unsanctioned.

The exclusion zone is just too frickin big. Almost no one can run a B-tier tournament east of the Mississippi in April without the permission of God or a Kentucky TD. And God isn't budging on His weekend. I checked with Diana.

There are something like 14 states that can't run a B-tier anytime in April unless they want to put it on the Easter weekend. That is about 12 tournaments that went last year that can't go this year. That's easily $6,000 lost to the PDGA in sanctioning and player fees.

I don't think the Kentucky TDs are likely to be unreasonable about this. I'm not picking on them. I played the BG Am Champs a couple of years ago and they all seemed like sensible, decent guys. This is going to be just as much a headache for them as anyone. I'm not saying those 12 tournaments won't go.

But where in the country is there an A-tier that needs a zone of exclusion 1000 miles wide in order to fill up the pro field? That is over 750,000 square miles of territory.

I'm just saying the rule does not serve the best interests of the PDGA.

There are something like 14 states that can't run a B-tier anytime in April unless they want to put it on the Easter weekend. That is about 12 tournaments that went last year that can't go this year.



What part about asking the A-tier TDs and/or the PDGA Tour Director did you miss?

There are something like 14 states that can't run a B-tier anytime in April unless they want to put it on the Easter weekend. That is about 12 tournaments that went last year that can't go this year.



What part about asking the A-tier TDs and/or the PDGA Tour Director did you miss?



Bruce stated "....God OR a Kentucky TD..." :D

He stated these events "can't" go, and KY TDs and God aren't the only ones who can approve B-tiers in the zone.

ie, if you dont get the answer you want from mom, then you go ask dad.

and this is the Pdga?

He stated these events "can't" go, and KY TDs and God aren't the only ones who can approve B-tiers in the zone.


Why have a 500 mile exclusion radius at all? If a TD can decline to give up their zone but another tourney can go ahead and get approval somewhere, then that is stoopid.

It breeds ill will.

It doesn't foster communication, it creates discontent.

I'd like to see the competition between the tourneys and no exclusion zone at all. The tds that put together the best tourney will get results and no td will put two a tier events near one another on the same dates. Pros will go to the higher payouts and better courses (thats a simple fact). My club works with the TDs that host tourneys in our area, we put in on the payout as well as add to the players pack and include other comforts on the course like water and gator aide. We as a club, know that this will bring more and more players to our tourneys every year. Competition can cure the problems, quit tryin to socially engineer the tournaments.

It breeds back-stabbing, end-running, game-playing, uncertainty, anxiety, conflict, disrespect for other provisions of the sanctioning agreement and, possibly, tooth decay. It's just bad.

And it is one less thing the PDGA is even pretending to do to support a tournament. It used to be they'd at least pretend that you had a ZOE until someone else wanted to jump on it. Some TDs would respect that and schedule around nearby tournaments.

Does it really matter? I mean do you guys actually think that the PTB is actually gonna enforce anything?? :confused: Just a bunch of wasted words on paper.

Since no one has the time to do these things, why dont you guys spend your time enforcing the current stuff instead of wasting all day changing crap you don't have the time to enforce. :confused:

I like free market laissez-faire solutions as much as any arch-conservative libertarian who works as the righthand-man to a liberal Democrat elected official. The free market can be a little wild and wooly sometimes. We form and join organizations and associations to help bring a little order to what might otherwise be a disordered process. So I am not against reasonable regulations. "1000 miles wide unless someone says otherwise for any reason he might say it," is neither reasonable nor a regulation.

I think it makes sense to not schedule A-tiers, Majors and NTs on the same weekend, unless the off-tour A-tier and the on-tour A-tier truly don't care, and I'm all for a sensible tour that works for the touring pros. Those guys who have touring in their bones and four-digit ratings deserve a schedule and a system that makes it possible for them to tour. Touring pros give the sport a little respectability as a legit sport.

But the reality around here is this: if the northern Indiana guys run a good tournament that the northern Indiana players want to play, that's all they need to get a good turnout. Ditto for Kalamazoo, Lansing, Ann Arbor, north Detroit suburban, Joliet, north Chicago suburban, Milwaukee, Maison, Quad Cities, Toledo, and shout outs to anyone else I should have mentioned. We gave up our zone of exclusion to two tournaments on the same weekend, 50 miles away and 120 miles away, and we had 140 players. And some of those 140 players were "their" players, not "ours." We run good tournaments for amateurs and don't need [or get] zones of exclusion.

If you go look at tournaments in regions you know, you will see that most tournaments get most of their players from within 50 miles. When a tournament is drawing large numbers of players from outside that radius, like the Bowling Green Am Champs, it is because they are doing something special, and you don't even want to try to compete against that.

So, I agree with Golden Triangle that good tournaments can go at it hammer and tong and the strong will survive. But that is more fun for the spectators than the bloodied combatants, and I'd rather we were not going hammer and tong with nearby TDs we like, like Gary Lewis and Brian Cummings. I'd rather there was just a rule that since there are 52 weekends, 32 with a chance for decent weather, Gary, Brian and Jon can't schedule on the same weekend.

What I'm saying is, please, please stop them before we stomp on another TD who schedules on our weekend. :D

bruce why not just join the Southern National Tour? i'd bet a feller y'all could have any weekend ya want!

This thread is a prime example of whining for whinings sake.

I doubt any 500 mile area has the number of PDGA events we have here in the MADC and we work it out. If any TD does not work it out then it is 100% on them for not communicating with conflicting TDs events. What is so complicated or disfunctional about that?

Serious eye roll on this one.

For many tournaments in MADC, the Atlantic ocean covers 30% of the ZOE. Not too many TDs out there that you have to deal with.

The general point is that prior to the change, exceptions had to be made. Now the standards are being made more onerous but TDs can communicate and exceptions can be again made by the TDs or by the PDGA. So what's the point of change the ZOE? It seems to just make it a lot fuzzier (or political).

It gets back to the fact that some rules are not being followed now and by making them tougher, they aren't going to be followed any better. The ZOE is just one example of this.

As disc golf grows, the ZOE should be shrinking not growing.

As disc golf grows, the ZOE should be shrinking not growing.



Perhaps, or perhaps the level of communication and cooperation between dg kingdoms should be increasing. And that is what this forces or at least encourages.

This thread is a prime example of whining for whinings sake.

I doubt any 500 mile area has the number of PDGA events we have here in the MADC and we work it out. If any TD does not work it out then it is 100% on them for not communicating with conflicting TDs events. What is so complicated or disfunctional about that?

Serious eye roll on this one.





As disc golf grows, the ZOE should be shrinking not growing.



Perhaps, or perhaps the level of communication and cooperation between dg kingdoms should be increasing. And that is what this forces or at least encourages.



Again, Nick: any comment of yours that concerns communication and cooperation is laughable. These are two areas of which you have demonstrated time and time again that you have severe deficiencies. Remember you were the guy responsible for lumping A-tiers on 4 consecutive weekends this year, a decision which was trashed by both disc golfers and event organizers for favoring a few touring players over the locals who fund and support the events the most.

You are also directly responsible for events withdrawing from MADC sanctioning because you left condescending messages on people's answering machines when they didn't get results to the MADC within 24 hours. Confirmed.

Again, Nick: any comment of yours that concerns communication and cooperation is laughable. These are two areas of which you have demonstrated time and time again that you have severe deficiencies.



Jeff, do you want me to list all of the actual and real disc golf communications programs I have created or been a part of? What is laughable is your ignorance and jilted grudgefest towards me.


Remember you were the guy responsible for lumping A-tiers on 4 consecutive weekends this year,



How do you figure that all-knowing Jeffrey? Because I attempted to get TDs to communicate and work together via the �NE Scheduleing Group�?

Oh, I see, I didn�t allow you into that group, when you requested it, because you don�t run events or even organize any so there was no reason to. That is what really has your panties in a bunch.


a decision which was trashed by both disc golfers and event organizers


You being neither a PDGA disc golfer nor and event organizer you would not know either. Secondly, I made no decision of the sort, those decisions were completely between the TDs and the PDGA.


for favoring a few touring players over the locals who fund and support the events the most.


Nice point. I�m glad I made it about 4 or 5 months ago.


You are also directly responsible for events withdrawing from MADC sanctioning because you left condescending messages on people's answering machines when they didn't get results to the MADC within 24 hours. Confirmed.


Name the event Jeff? Until then it is not �Confirmed�.

The laughable thing in all of this is that your only involvement in disc golf is this message board. You don�t play tournaments. You don�t organize any events. You don�t even work within any clubs as an organizer.

Basically you are a non-factor. Deal with it. We all do. Quite gladly I might add�

The laughable thing in all of this is that your only involvement in disc golf is this message board. You don't play tournaments. You don?t organize any events. You don't even work within any clubs as an organizer.

Basically you are a non-factor.



Do I need to list all the tournaments I've played over the last several years, both PDGA and non-PDGA events? How about the tournaments I sacrificed playing so that scores could be processed and uploaded immediately to the PDGA site? I guess Scoring Director of one of the biggest events of the year, Pro Worlds 2005 in the Lehigh Valley, doesn't count? What about the Warwick NT event? How about all the work days and clean up days I attended at South Mountain and Warwick over the years? All irrelevant in your warped vision of the world, I suppose. But this isn't about me. You're the one that's failing miserably at leadership positions because of your inability to work with others.

What is relevant that is you will soon become a non-factor. The MADC and the PDGA organizations may soon pause to give thought as to whether having you aboard, and all the baggage and negative energy you bring, is making a positive contribution to the organization and the growth of the sport, or holding it back.

The term "zone of exclusion" or ZOE is actually about as accurate as calling the $5 non-member fee a $5 member discount. What we have here is a 1000 mile wide Area of Relatively Excessive Ambiguity. It is the AREA area. :D

I say this because no one is promising anyone that anything will be excluded in their AREA. Something might be excluded in your area, but even for that there are no promises. I guess the only promise you are getting is that if you are outside everyone's AREA, no one will say you can't do a tournament because there is already a tournament in the area.

I think it befits the ambiguity of the rule if we have an ambiguous acronym for the rule. Then when Brett says, "I think there is a tournament in the Chicago AREA already that weekend," it will sound just like, "I think there is a tournament in the Chicago area already that weekend." And then I can say, "Milwaukee? Joliet?" And he can say, "No, Lexington, Kentucky, 453 miles away!" :D

Thanks to Lexington for giving us a green light. Now I need a good acronym for GOOD NEIGHBOR TD in my AREA.

Generally
O.k.
Or
Decent,

Not
Extremely
Itchy to
Get
Hot and
Bitchy
Over
Relatively

Tiny
Details.

You are gifted. Use your talent for acronyms wisely, and always for the powers of good.

I see why he got the grades in writing! Nicely said Bruce!

The laughable thing in all of this is that your only involvement in disc golf is this message board. You don't play tournaments. You don?t organize any events. You don't even work within any clubs as an organizer.

Basically you are a non-factor.



Do I need to list all the tournaments I've played over the last several years, both PDGA and non-PDGA events? How about the tournaments I sacrificed playing so that scores could be processed and uploaded immediately to the PDGA site? I guess Scoring Director of one of the biggest events of the year, Pro Worlds 2005 in the Lehigh Valley, doesn't count? What about the Warwick NT event? How about all the work days and clean up days I attended at South Mountain and Warwick over the years? All irrelevant in your warped vision of the world, I suppose. But this isn't about me. You're the one that's failing miserably at leadership positions because of your inability to work with others.

What is relevant that is you will soon become a non-factor. The MADC and the PDGA organizations may soon pause to give thought as to whether having you aboard, and all the baggage and negative energy you bring, is making a positive contribution to the organization and the growth of the sport, or holding it back.



Jeff, I fully understand you disliking me. Regardless of your incredible conspiracy theories, in the end, only you and I know what is really going on here between us. You have been �wronged� in your own eyes and sworn publicly to make trouble for me in any manner you can and have done so; 99% on this message board, and the other as a volunteer at the Skylands. Truth be told neither rises to the level of a mere nuisance because the people that really matter, know me and I know them, so your strange and completely inaccurate tales of my organizational mishaps are seen for what they are; in short the ramblings of a well-known and widely-documented dude with major issues.

A bit of advice: The MADC and PDGA are primarily volunteer organizations of a handful of active folks, they know action oriented folks when they see them. They also know BS when they see it.

A bit of advice: Stop living in denial, Nick. I am just one of many voices - can't you hear the masses trumpeting far and wide from the hilltops? It's your incredible failures at getting along with other people and the negativity that surrounds you which is well-known and widely-documented.

The one thing the MADC and PDGA will soon realize is that your actions are steering more people away from organized disc golf than doing positive things for it.


From Danny Schrider, PDGA#15505

Nick Kight - you are a negative influence on many, many people. I know you say you don't care because you are just having fun on a message board and this isn't real life. I can't believe the PDGA lets you act as their official voice on so many levels. You really turn people off and you are getting worse. Back in the day when you would go at it with Randy Wimm, I was amused. Now your constant tirades with anyone that doesn't walk the official PDGA line is nauseating.




From Paul Young, PDGA#25567

I think I understand why the PDGA decided to clamp down on who gets to post what, but it seems a hollow reason to me if Nick's abuses are still allowed to continue. If his words are permitted on this board, and no effort is made by the PDGA to discipline or restrain him, then I don't see why any action was taken against anyone else.




From Kool_Keith, Member#7124
Your behavior in this thread, and others on this forum that I've read, has completely turned me off from the idea of volunteering ANY of my time, money, or sweat for the PDGA just in the mere chance that I'd be in some contact with you. You have NO CLASS, ZERO PROFESSIONALISM, and a BAD ATTITUDE. I'll continue to support my local courses, and help grow the local scene where I can. But I'll be darned if I'll go near the PDGA volunteer scene until 5 years after resign your post. NO SOONER. I suppose you don't speak for the PDGA, but you do your absolute best to make it look that way. And you seem to try to convey that to the players that don't know any better - sad. Even as a volunteer, your salary should be halved. To attack the organizers of a great tournament in such a viscious and persistant manner is hardly "good for the game". Your actions in this thread do nothing to grow membership. I'm not a PDGA member yet, but if the people that run this organization let you represent them in this manner, I DO NOT WANT TO BE A MEMBER OF THE ORGANIZATION.

Nick, you are the reason I've not stuck a stamp on this envelope sitting on my desk.

Signed,
Keith

3...2...1... :o

Jeff and Nick

Please do us a favor and take the publicizing of your distaste for each other elsewhere.



Thank You

Aaahh, now on to discussing the more important disagreement between Nick and Jessica...

I think we need to give Lung and Nick an ZOE from each other. An AREA won't work here. I was going to say more, but it wasn't funny enough.

Seriously, I think Rhett needs to enforce a rule against stalking. Because I have these two on ignore I really don't know what they are saying and I'm not looking to find out. But isn't this the fifth or sixth thread to go this way?

I would like to make an Official General Request of Easement of the two parties Jeff LaGrassa and Nick Kight:

Hey guys, it's getting really old. We can set up a thread or even a whole topic for you guys to argue on. Or y'all could take it to email or PMs. But please please PLEASE ease up on this. Jeff, I know that you need point stuff out about Nick. Please just point it out once per thread and stop. Nick, I know you need to respond each time, so please respond once per thread and stop.

Please abide by the OGRE.

I think once per thread, and only on one thread per month as well.

I think once per thread, and only on one thread per month as well.



And preferably on the *** board... :)

Jeff and Nick

Please do us a favor and take the publicizing of your distaste for eachother elsewhere. By now we are all fluent in Lagrassa v Kight. This topic, and your inability to get past it, is detracting from all the good work both of you have done for the sport and the association.

Thank you.

BDH @ PDGAHQ



It's too bad something like this wasn't written sooner when Jeff was hounding Nick on every thread and Nick was ignoring him. Now it looks like Nick is part of the problem when all he's doing is responding.

Nick is part a different problem all together. :D

And preferably on the *** board...


That's the best suggestion I have heard all year. :eek:

And preferably on the *** board...


That's the best suggestion I have heard all year. :eek:


Am I supposed to delete that post?

I don't know the rules about that. :confused:

I guess it is a backhanded recommendation. :D

And preferably on the *** board...


That's the best suggestion I have heard all year. :eek:


Am I supposed to delete that post?



Hey I didn't say what it stood for! :confused: :D

Just trying to help "fill out" their boardspace.

Hey Nick and Jeff take it here VVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

(but then Nick has been banned from the *** board at least once already)

How many times did you get banned? :)

My password was changed 2 or 3 times :o

We run good tournaments for amateurs and don't need [or get] zones of exclusion.



Maybe the ZOE should be reworked for no Amateur exclusions for lower Tiers. Bruce, were you this productive or antaganistic when you were on the board?

For Professional Disc Golfers, local, touring, whatever. There are not many pros out there. The ZOE needs to happen. If you run a SuperTour in Chicago I'm sure you would love to see the Quad City Pros, some of the Ann Arbor Pros and the Milwaukee Pros. Why would they travel if there was a B-Tier in the hometown?
Do you even run A-Tiers?
I thought you guys ran C-Tier Amateaur events. They only have a 50 mi ZOE from other C-Tiers, 100 from B-Tier, 250 from A-Tier.
If I was running a first time SuperTour in the Quad-Cities and didn't know if my AM field was going to be full, I surely wouldn't want C-Tiers drawing 140 Ams to be held in Chicago, Rockford, and Cedar Rapids. If I ran an established A-Tier that fills with local AMs and you called to get the OK, no problem.

We run A-tiers for amateurs but choose to sanction them as B-tiers, if all you're talking about is payout. We usually pay our amateurs about 140-150%. Usually when pros talk about tier, they mean payout, and don't even know what the other myriad of distinctions are.

We're building the base of the pyramid so that someday this sport can have a professional class of players rather than a cadre of itinerant professional gamblers. Have you looked at our numbers? I don't think anyone is bringing in more new rec and intermediate players than we are. You pros need a thousand times more recs and intermediates if you ever want to get paid what you're worth. You're getting most of your "new" money from Innova and Discraft. You don't get ahead on shuffling each other's "old" money around and giving it back. That's a zero sum game that only seems like something because there are so many suckers who donate in. Innova and Discraft get most of their money from chuckers, recs and intermediates who hit trees, land in busy streets and throw their discs in the pond. You need a lot more of them if you want more for yourself and your lovely wife. And Des deserves more! :D

I would be happy if on every date when we are in someone's AREA the PDGA would tell us we could only sanction the amateurs, but we could have the letter B. That would be a great compromise. Brett would be [I'm a potty-mouth!] and maybe he'd quit, but Jon and I would say, "Alrighty then!" and go look for a new psychiatrically stable partner. If you think you can build this sport by getting large numbers of pros to drive 400 miles to pay $125 for the privilege of getting whupped by tour professionals, I think we can grow the sport faster by getting every casual chucker hooked on organized league and tournament play. We can do both at the same time, but not if our B is held hostage by a TD 250-400 miles away where none of our players go to or come from for disc golf.

I don't know how antagonistic or productive I was when I was on the board. I felt like I was neither. I felt like I was wasting my time and jeopardizing my license.

Thanks again to Everett in Lexington, a true Kentucky gentleman. 1 down and three to go! Every Illinois and Wisconsin pro should head on down to Lexington and forget about IOS #1. It will still be winter in Wisconsin but it will be spring in Lexington.

I would like to make an Official General Request of Easement of the two parties Jeff LaGrassa and Nick Kight:

Hey guys, it's getting really old. We can set up a thread or even a whole topic for you guys to argue on. Or y'all could take it to email or PMs. But please please PLEASE ease up on this. Jeff, I know that you need point stuff out about Nick. Please just point it out once per thread and stop. Nick, I know you need to respond each time, so please respond once per thread and stop.

Please abide by the OGRE.



I'll just put him on ignore again, but his toddling along behind me everywhere I post has got to be a courtesy violation of some sort or another (i.e. Terry's call to not do stuff here you wouldn't do out on the course as the golden rule of message board usage).

Wait, I hear someone calling from the hills. What are they saying?

Jeff LaGrassa is a big ***!"

LOL! :D

See ya when I see ya Jeffie.

We're building the base of the pyramid so that someday this sport can have a professional class of players rather than a cadre of itinerant professional gamblers.



Offered in Jest: Translated: We're taking advantage of the current competitive system which is bloated in the middle because that is were the greatest number of protected prize craving carnies are located and man can we ever move plastic on them!

Not in Jest: The real foundation has yet to even be mapped out: REAL AMATEURS will not even remotely resemble what we currently call amateurs. They will play for the love of the sport alone, and come mainly from schools and organized civic groups.

On topic - PDGA Am only and Pro only events should be allowed to run at the same time. Beyond that the ZOE is to provide guidelines for TDs that can't work things out for themselves and is a necessary measure. Otherwise little dg kingdoms would destroy all that we have accomplished as an organized group of events by a diverse group of organizers. See the forest for the trees please.

Offered in Jest: Translated: We're taking advantage of the current competitive system which is bloated in the middle because that is were the greatest number of protected prize craving carnies are located and man can we ever move plastic on them!

Not in Jest: The real foundation has yet to even be mapped out: REAL AMATEURS will not even remotely resemble what we currently call amateurs. They will play for the love of the sport alone, and come mainly from schools and organized civic groups.


I'm pretty sure you labeled those backwards Nick.

Offered in Jest: Translated: We're taking advantage of the current competitive system which is bloated in the middle because that is were the greatest number of protected prize craving carnies are located and man can we ever move plastic on them!

Not in Jest: The real foundation has yet to even be mapped out: REAL AMATEURS will not even remotely resemble what we currently call amateurs. They will play for the love of the sport alone, and come mainly from schools and organized civic groups.


I'm pretty sure you labeled those backwards Nick.



Actually neither was in jest now that I reread them.

Protection at no cost is what is crippling our growth as a sport. There is, and has been a serious disconnect between organized disc golf and the development of a top to bottom competitive system that fosters all out growth. The source: Our decision to try and lure "amateurs" to our events with "professional" payouts. Perhaps we can never return to a real amateur class now. I like to believe we can and as you can see I have no reservations in sharing my point of view.

ZOE is utter and complete minutia in relation to this all pervasive challenge.

If you think you can build this sport by getting large numbers of pros to drive 400 miles to pay $125 for the privilege of getting whupped by tour professionals, I think we can grow the sport faster by getting every casual chucker hooked on organized league and tournament play.



You know where I stand on growing the future of the sport with the work I do with The Educational Disc Golf Experience.

I agree we can grow the sport with organized league play and Am friendly tournaments. But, I also understand that hooking players by loading them up with massive payouts does the Amateaur tournament structure no good now nor in the long run. I wish for our sports promoters and professional tournament directors much support for attempting to make a living, but the system of: if I charge more entry in order to pay out more merch which in turn creates more profit for me is hurting the sport and any chance of creating Ams that ultimately play for the love of the game.
And Bruce, when we got hooked on the game as "true ams" because we had grown up playing real amateaur sports, we traveled to Chicago (200 miles) often for a chance to play Am tournaments without gross payouts. In fact, the first tournament that Des won she got one disc and a wind sock-----guess what, she was hooked :D

I wish for our sports promoters and professional tournament directors much support for attempting to make a living, but the system of: if I charge more entry in order to pay out more merch which in turn creates more profit for me...


I think you got the bolded part wrong. It should say "...creates more "added cash" for the pro purse...

And Bruce, when we got hooked on the game as "true ams" because we had grown up playing real amateaur sports, we traveled to Chicago (200 miles) often for a chance to play Am tournaments without gross payouts. In fact, the first tournament that Des won she got one disc and a wind sock-----guess what, she was hooked



Read that again.


And Bruce, when we got hooked on the game as "true ams" because we had grown up playing real amateaur sports, we traveled to Chicago (200 miles) often for a chance to play Am tournaments without gross payouts. In fact, the first tournament that Des won she got one disc and a wind sock-----guess what, she was hooked



I wonder how many disc golfers ever played amateur sports? I was a three sport player all my life football, basketball, and track and the fevered intense competition all for no more than a sense of accomplishment has rarely been experienced or even offered in organized disc golf.

One question: Why?

two possible reasons:

1) disc golfers are all stoners so fervered intense cometition leading to a deep sense of accomplishment just doesnt occur

or (since i doubt the first one anyway)

2) you're just not really all that good

Now that Nick is convinced that everybody agrees with him on the 2MR because no one follows up his posts on that much anymore, he is apparently reviving the "repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat" tactics to revive the "true am" thing. Ugh.

Maybe if we just don't answer his "true am is the answer to Iraq and everything else" posts on every thread he might quit posting the same thing over and over and over and over. Yes Pat, he will indeed conclude that we all finally agree with him if we don't follow him around on every single thread to dispute his claims, but maybe that isn't such a high price to get it to end. :p :p :p

is it just me, or has Nick toned down his pomposity since losing the Admin. crown, while the persons now wearing "A"s seem to have toned their's up? Maybe that A has a corrupting influence ... :confused:

nope, just you. :cool:

LOL

So Pat, if you are been serious, and I don't see why you wouldn't be, you don't know why we don't provide a venue for amateur competition, right?

Now that Nick is convinced that everybody agrees with him on the 2MR because no one follows up his posts on that much anymore,


Where do you get that idea Rhett? I didn't bring it up nor continue it. The person in question would be Pat who did both. And his statements are pretty clearly not in agreement with the 2MR being optional. So you really need to get 1 out of 3 things right when you are only talking about 3 things to begin with. Rhong, Rhong and let's see, yeah Rhong again...

he is apparently reviving the "repeat...repeat...repeat...repeat" tactics to revive the "true am" thing. Ugh.


And you quite apparently are not "ignoring it" again as you claim to do and advise everyone to do. Wonder why?


Maybe if we just don't answer his "true am is the answer to Iraq and everything else" posts on every thread he might quit posting the same thing over and over and over and over.


You first Rhett. :DLOL!


Yes Pat, he will indeed conclude that we all finally agree with him if we don't follow him around on every single thread to dispute his claims, but maybe that isn't such a high price to get it to end. :p :p :p


I don't conclude anything of the sort. Though the "fact" that the 2MR will be optional in 2006 and just a mention of it in the glossary of the new rulebook might lead one to conclude that perhaps my "repeat, repeat, and repeat" of the challenges of the 2MR did actually make believers of the people that count most. But that would be presumptuous...

Besides, you guys never dispute what I say, you just belittle me personally. I think that is what is known as "flaming". But when every argument you guys have ever offered has gone down in flames, I can sort of see why you fall back to your belittlement. It's easier than making real arguments and makes you feel in control. For a time at least. A very short time...

At any rate, a true amateur class is inevitable in organized disc golf. If I'm not mistaken, it is even included in the language of the 2006 PDGA Tour Standards.

Repeat, repeat, repeat. It must be all my doing again! Go figure. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

is it just me, or has Nick toned down his pomposity since losing the Admin. crown, while the persons now wearing "A"s seem to have toned their's up? Maybe that A has a corrupting influence ... :confused:



Correction: I never had a crown, I merely kept an eye on the board for the Board and did as they told me to do. When Terry took over completely for a time there was no more need for my participation. I'm glad Rhett and Pat are taking it over, I'm sure they'll find it as enjoyable as I did. http://www.madisc.org/forum/phpBB2/images/smiles/10404computhead.gif

Rhett and Pat seem far more "my way or the highway"-ish about the 2 meter rule than you or i or Chuck or the RC. Afterall, as far as i know we're all ok with it being up to TD discretion... Yet they seem to want to pigeon hole you and i as being anti 2 meter rule zealots ... i guess for them referring to you and i as zealots makes their attachment to the 2 meter rule seem less 'out-on-a-limb' /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif :p

is it just me or have i become noticably bitter since the decision was made to prevent non-members from posting :confused:
(a population which just so happens to make up the majority of disc golf players and disc golf retail customers....)

i'd take my keyboard and go home but i really don't have a life /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

http://www.madisc.org/forum/phpBB2/images/smiles/10404computhead.gif


:D

LOL

judging from nick three-in-a-row, i would say pomposity survives then end of the A quite well :D

LOL

judging from nick three-in-a-row, i would say pomposity survives then end of the A quite well :D



Pat, are you the human torch?

Notice if you will, niether Rhett nor Pat make any points as relate to the topic, they just keep harping on about me.

It's nice to be loved so...

Isn't the topic the 500 mile zone, which involves neither the 2M rule OR "true amatuer" competition?

I'm pretty sure that those topics have enough threads of their own. Where's LaGrassa to point them out for us?

Isn't the topic the 500 mile zone, which involves neither the 2M rule OR "true amatuer" competition?

I'm pretty sure that those topics have enough threads of their own. Where's LaGrassa to point them out for us?



He's waiting for me to post in them first...

Isn't the topic the 500 mile zone, which involves neither the 2M rule OR "true amatuer" competition?

I'm pretty sure that those topics have enough threads of their own. Where's LaGrassa to point them out for us?



True Amateur competition discussion can be found in the Proposed competitive structure changes thread. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=244839&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=2#Post479965)

Some recent 2m rule discussion can be found in the 2 Meter Stuck Rule thread. (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=459865&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

There we go... :D

... the 2 Meter Stuck Rule ... (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=459865&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)



Didn't the RC stick the 2 meter rule <font color="yellow"> where the sun don't shine? </font>

After discussing the ZOE for a few days with several players, we agreed that there needs to be a ZOE for A-Tiers.
We did not agree on the distance, although most said that it should not exceed 500 miles.

We all agreed that B-, C-, and D-tiers should not have to conform to a ZOE unless it becomes an optional, conditional implementation in areas which are dense with overlapping tourneys (maybe Texas?).

I think it would be more a problem where there are multiple state coordinators impacted by the B-Tier schedule. Most of my 250 mile ZOEs (B-B) don't extend beyond the borders.

So far it has not been a challenge in PA. If it is, we have mature well-seasoned TDs who will work things out amiably.

I do like competitiveness because it will create better tourneys. If there is a nt tier event within a couple hundred miles, I will be there. But if there is a c-tier that is run well with lots of perks 50 miles away, Id go there. It all depends on who is running the show and what Im getting for my 35 bucks. Good competition is one thing, but lunch included is great. For a 2 day, whats the amenities, players party/dinner. I can stay home and play a great round but I enjoy the tourney experience and have been finding that all tourneys (tds) are not created equal.Maybe there should be an exclusion zone for the nt tiers only, and let the other tiers do battle. Maybe the tournament experience will only get better that way. Why would a player not play at a nt event 100 miles away and opt instead for a ctier 50 miles away?

we've just decided to go non-sanctioned. eliminate the hassle of scheduling--and the tax. we're running 12(once a month) events in 2006. in the past we would run at least three sanctioned events. now, we don't have to worry about "zones" or the tax. We'll look at the MADC schedule and try to schedule around tournaments that are popular destinations for our club members.

i enjoy all tournaments but especially the c tier because they're the same as the others only cheaper. i've never noticed a severe difference between the a, b, c tournaments. i've long ago forgotten what a player's package is...at least one worth receiving. you show up and play a pre-determined number of rounds. some you pay $100 for that privilege others $20. it makes me think of "the emperor wears no clothes."

the demand in the lehigh valley and the surrounding area is for a great local series. so we'll put our efforts toward that and hopefully in the future some tournament like marshall street or paw paw (popular destinations around here)will give the series winners a spot in the tournament. supporting grassroots local disc golf. too bad the pdga doesn't support this kind of effort. (I may be mistaken...enlighten me if i'm wrong.)

seems like sanctioning is more trouble than it's worth. the "zones" seems like an issue where the pdga is exerting authority where it really has none. you see? 12 events. 0 sanctioned.

I haven't followed this thread closely, but it seems that dscmn's sentiment might be shared by quite a few people. I understand the reasons for some ZOE, and I understand the need to for some level of non-member fee. However, at some point, it seems like there needs to be some pretty good carrots offered by being sanctioned, otherwise, why bother?

You might want to read the 2006 MADC Local Schedule Application first Kevin. It is now far more open to local series than in the past. It is actually a free for all as far as unsanctioned events go. Of course, like you say we ask that TDs work together where needed. Working together is not a bad thing is it?

i saw it. looks good. $50 for the year, we have now 6 courses that will be used. desales university will do much for increasing the player base. we're approaching some sponsors for the lehigh valley "tour" as well. each course will have specific sponsors...big daddy's, etc.

the madc seems to be responding to the growth of disc golf by supporting local clubs and courses. why don't WE do that as the pdga as well? i'd love all 12 of our events to be pdga sanctioned but unfortunately all that means is that we must pay fees. not much logic in that.

why don't WE do that as the pdga as well?



Good point.

The PDGA Affilliate Club Program is a step toward that. I belong to three different clubs that are a part of that program.

Right now, there is very little incentive to become an Affilliate Club: separate/specific posting area on PDGA discussion board, and minor discounts in retail purchases and membership bundles. Big deal.

However, the potential of this program is HUGE. I think future Tours can be engineered around the Affilliate Club Program - both regional and national. I think I've read that a plan for these ideas is being formulated (maybe Cliff Towne can confirm?).

Perhaps this would ratify the theory behind the ZOE, perhaps it would eliminate the need for a ZOE for all but A-Tiers and up. (And perhaps Nick will jump on this as a chance to preach the joys of the True Am class.) :o

Either way, the ZOE is a tool that divides and separates. Though some say it will foster communication between TDs and State Reps, but I believe it can become a wedge between TDs and clubs. It may even be an obstacle for Touring Pros in the choices of tournaments they attend.

i saw it. looks good. $50 for the year, we have now 6 courses that will be used. desales university will do much for increasing the player base. we're approaching some sponsors for the lehigh valley "tour" as well. each course will have specific sponsors...big daddy's, etc.

the madc seems to be responding to the growth of disc golf by supporting local clubs and courses. why don't WE do that as the pdga as well? i'd love all 12 of our events to be pdga sanctioned but unfortunately all that means is that we must pay fees. not much logic in that.



We're not shy about leading the way. All credit/blame ;) goes to our new MADC Board of Directors:

President: Rex Hay
VP: Scott Murray
Secretary: Dr. John G. Duesler Jr.
Treasurer: Jeff Sweetman

You can't fault us for not trying. Still, I'm not sure this would work on a bigger scale, but I suppose there is only one way to find out.

Note: I'm running a non-sanctioned event at Kennett in September, if some allowance were made, like Kevin proposes, I wouldn't mind making it PDGA also. As it stands this is a get our feet wet tournament so there will not be any added cash and it's in my nature to do 100% or better payouts... so I have the $30 covered for the MADC, it's all the PDGA fees I would have a challenge with this year. Down the round when we run bigger events I'd have no reservations about paying the full fees.

You are gifted. Use your talent for acronyms wisely, and always for the powers of good.


I had to dig up this thread for a reason but first a few shout outs:

I'd like to thank again the gentlemen from Kentucky who allowed us to go on their weekend without a fuss. We filled. We did not have any players saying, "Wow, springtime in Kentucky vs Wisconsin in April was a tough choice!" :D Our players did not have four days and 900 miles of driving on their agenda, even if that would get them to winter in Aruba.

I'd like to thank the St. Louis team again. They got all the good pros and all the amateurs who could play a two-day tournament. We got all the amateurs who needed to cut the grass or whatever on the other day that weekend. I don't think we pulled any of the Peoria-Bloomington-Springfield crowd up to Chicago.

I'd like to thank the DGLO crew for letting us go as a C/C. They filled. We filled. We saved $200 on PDGA fees. We don't deduct for PDGA fees so that really is money we saved, except we spent it on overall trophies! Please, everyone, make us go C/C for all these! I don't think our players noticed.

I'd also like to thank the Brent Hambrick folks for letting the Peoria open go this weekend. They are looking full. My crystal ball is cloudy on our event, but the Magic 8 Ball says, "Things are looking good."

What I came out here for: I played a tournament this weekend. Maybe no one noticed but there was a Major this weekend that shut down the A/NTs. Well, the touring pros noticed and were scratching their heads, and 50 players found out about the Major in sub-arctic northern Wisconsin and showed up for that.

It was cool seeing touring pros at the Illinois State Championships. Some of the local pros really enjoyed playing with Avery and Matt. I enjoyed watching them do their little long drive demonstration after the tournament.

So now I can say something good about the AREA. [Area of Relatively Excessive Ambiguity, for those of you who are behind in your reading.] I got to roll out of bed in the morning, because I slept in the parking lot, stumble over to the registration table with my eyes half closed and my hair doing funny things, do a double take, and then say, "Hey, Avery." :D

Hmmm, maybe I said, "Hey, Avery," later in the day when I asked them how it was that the rest of the touring pros ditched them in Joliet. I had no idea that the National Tour had been shut down for a little amateur thing way up north. But it was cool to see them in Mokena.

I'd like to thank the DGLO crew for letting us go as a C/C. They filled. We filled. We saved $200 on PDGA fees. We don't deduct for PDGA fees so that really is money we saved, except we spent it on overall trophies! Please, everyone, make us go C/C for all these! I don't think our players noticed.




That would suck!

I'd like to thank the DGLO crew for letting us go as a C/C. They filled. We filled. We saved $200 on PDGA fees. We don't deduct for PDGA fees so that really is money we saved, except we spent it on overall trophies! Please, everyone, make us go C/C for all these! I don't think our players noticed.


That would suck!

I don't understand why it would. We filled. We ran the exact same good event that we would have run with a different letter designation. Same payouts, player packs, CTPs, dyed disc trophies, Brakels #$*&$! at each other. The only difference was, at the end of the weekend we had an extra $210 to apply towards overalls. We did not have as many World Champions at the event as normal, but that was because of summer camp, and not the C-tier designation. Think of what the Finals could be like if we did the C/C every time and had $1250 at the end of the season to apply to overalls. $500 added for the pros and maybe 1500 added brass for the ams? Or we buy lunch for everyone? It would give the volunteers something fun to fight over: how to spend a pile of money!

My thanks are sincere to all. We really appreciate it. There are plenty of players to have two good tournaments east of the Mississippi on the same weekend. :D

my only problem is the points, especially with worlds in milwaukee next year. otherwise i don't care. but you probably already knew that.

my only problem is the points, especially with worlds in milwaukee next year. otherwise i don't care. but you probably already knew that.

Yeah, i figured it was probably the points. Our attendance is so big, it makes up for the smaller multiplier. 57 X 4.5 at Crystal Lake was a lot more points than 17 X 6 the same weekend at Oskalooska, or 0 X 7.5 at the DGLO because they filled before you got in!

[I'm not checking to make sure I got my multipliers right. I'm just guessing.]

Next year people will probably want points for Kalamazoo Pro-Am Worlds, especially the people who played either of the last two combined Pro-Am Worlds, so we'll probably keep B-tiering the ams when we can, because perception is reality in these things sometimes. And most of the time I'm fine with running decent fund raisers for the PDGA.

But whenever the PDGA doesn't want the money, cha-ching, thank you!

I would just like to publicly apologize to Chuck since it is too late to edit that one post. It was a little mean. I was being bad. I'm sorry. :(

I actually set the record for lowest attendance at a PDGA tournament in 2003 and then broke it in 2004. I should know better. I'm really sorry. :(

No one made me do this. All the people who make me do stuff went to summer camp for two weeks. It was wrong to say that and i'm sorry.

Well, the touring pros noticed and were scratching their heads, and 50 players found out about the Major in sub-arctic northern Wisconsin and showed up for that.



Well, the touring pros will have to find that sub-arctic location in northern Wisconsin because the PDGA Board tonight granted us final approval for hosting Pro Worlds next year. Get out your maps. Highbridge is just down the road from Sandy Point Disc Golf Ranch where many touring pros have hung their hats for tournaments including players from Texas and California for their team event hosted for many years. While it will be the farthest north Worlds ever, it was in the 80s for most of the week at Mid-Nats so global warming might be changing the meaning of "sub-arctic" temps.

(BB, apology appreciated and accepted)