If I putt at a target, say a 12 foot putt, and I gak it. (not an unheard of occurence)
my disc then rolls 80 feet down hill into an OB stream...
The way the rules read, I can either play it where it went OB, with up to one meter relief perpendicular to the OB line,
OR, play it from my previous lie.
Either way I take a stroke penalty.

Is this the intention of this rule?
or a loophole.

It is the rule

It is the rule.

Most TDs specify the play it where it was last in bounds as the only option though.

Really? I've never heard that stipulation made in the score/so Players' Meetings I've heard [PDGA].

I can't honestly recall seeing this rule exercised, either. :o

...many Old-Timers seem dubious when I mention the rule, too. :eek:

...I've listened to several "2-M waive" Jobs, though. http://themooneysuzuki.com/media/common/emoticons/punch.gif http://www.pdga.com/discus/clipart/proud.gif

wha?

i've seen it several times in action including at the memorial this year..a putt uphill from about 5 feet hit the cage and rolled downhill past the o.b.(for the pros)sidewalk...the player who had not picked up his mini walked down the hill picked up his putter and walked back uphill and made his putt...
we all were wondering wtf until we looked at the rule book and saw where the rule does state that you can play from previous lie...

probably was meant for tee or fairway shots but like alot of pdga rules intent doesn't equal black and white rulings...so it's all good on any o.b. throw!

used it myself also this year at a non-sanctioned but with pdga rules tournament i played in :D

If I had known that It would have saved me a couple strokes at the Memorial as well :eek: I had 2 putts I think that were inside the cirlce that I missed and had roll into the water :mad:

Ill remember that for next year :D

probably was meant for tee or fairway shots but like alot of pdga rules intent doesn't equal black and white rulings...so it's all good on any o.b. throw!



Hold the phone. Keith Johnson is wrong again!

It is not an option on holes where the TD stipulates that OBs must be played from where they were last over IB. Com'on Keith! What chyu trying to perpetrate here!?!

I'd suggest you try rewriting our rules Keith but A. you don't know how to read let alone write and B. your knowledge of our rules of play are tenuous at best...

Hold the phone. Keith Johnson is wrong again!

It is not an option on holes where the TD stipulates that OBs must be played from where they were last over IB. Com'on Keith! What chyu trying to perpetrate here!?!




What about the holes where it is not specifically stipulated by the TD? Your above statement adds that qualifier. (In my experience, usually the TD neglects to specify where OB is played from, unless there are large amounts of water right off the tee.)

wha?


Just that. No 2-meter rule...it was specifically, intentionally waived. :cool:To my disapproval, but no avail. :D

I have never heard a TD announce a blanket restriction on where to play OB lies from. The only restrictions I have seen is on shots where the TD declares a drop zone or previous lie (tee box in this case) as the only option and then usually it only applied to the initial drive. Subsequent OBs on the same hole were played normally (all options apply except the drop zone).

I can't recall ever having a TD declare the last IB spot as the only option.

Also, the place I have most often seen the last lie option used is on missed putts that went OB.

It is the rule.

Most TDs specify the play it where it was last in bounds as the only option though.



I have never heard any TD specify this either.

That has been my experience too. I think that the rule as written is perhaps more permissive than the intention behind the rule.

It's the same rule as ball golf so there's no intent to be more permissive. If your putt rolls off the green into a water hazard in BG, you can play from the same lie again on the green
(26-1a www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/index.html). (http://www.usga.org/playing/rules/books/index.html).)

If anything, the rule in DG compensates for a combination of both bad luck AND weak design when a bang and roll shot ends up in OB farther from the basket than the original lie. Rarely, will just a bad air shot end up in OB farther from the basket than where the shot originated.

I have never heard a TD announce a blanket restriction on where to play OB lies from. The only restrictions I have seen is on shots where the TD declares a drop zone or previous lie (tee box in this case) as the only option and then usually it only applied to the initial drive. Subsequent OBs on the same hole were played normally (all options apply except the drop zone).

I can't recall ever having a TD declare the last IB spot as the only option.

Also, the place I have most often seen the last lie option used is on missed putts that went OB.



A. Then our experiences in disc golf have been vastly different, because I hear it at nearly every event I go to.
B. If the TD does not specify it then OF COURSE all of the options are available. So where is the loop hole?

If a TD is too lazy to specify such things where there is a need on their course for it, then clearly it is the TDs fault for any trouble that might arise, not the PDGA Rulebooks fault.

wha?


Just that. No 2-meter rule...it was specifically, intentionally waived. :cool:To my disapproval, but no avail. :D



And your point?

OK maybe loophole is a bit strong.
I've NEVER heard it mentioned at a players meeting. And I kinda like the rule itself, so no issue there. It's just that I never read the rule that way and when i pointed it out at the USDGC no one had thought of it either.
It could have saved a few strokes for some.
So...HEY everybody, check out what you should know about the rules.
Read them carefully.
BOB

Knowing the rules should always be an advantage. I've been in situations though, where others in the group didn't know the rules and wanted me to take a provisional because they didn't believe me or the rulebook.

A. Then our experiences in disc golf have been vastly different, because I hear it at nearly every event I go to.




I've NEVER heard it at any tournament I've ever attended, and I've been in the sport ten years now.

Looks like Nick is making up stuff again to try to prove his points.

I have never heard a TD announce a blanket restriction on where to play OB lies from. The only restrictions I have seen is on shots where the TD declares a drop zone or previous lie (tee box in this case) as the only option and then usually it only applied to the initial drive. Subsequent OBs on the same hole were played normally (all options apply except the drop zone).

I can't recall ever having a TD declare the last IB spot as the only option.

Also, the place I have most often seen the last lie option used is on missed putts that went OB.



A. Then our experiences in disc golf have been vastly different, because I hear it at nearly every event I go to.
<font color="blue"> is that the same nearly as the way you call rules :eek:</font>

B. If the TD does not specify it then OF COURSE all of the options are available. So where is the loop hole?

If a TD is too lazy to specify such things where there is a need on their course for it, then clearly it is the TDs fault for any trouble that might arise, not the PDGA Rulebooks fault.
<font color="blue"> on this i agree but in over 10 years of playing events all over the country and in canada..except for drop zones,i have almost never heard a td say you MUST play it from last IB....granted i have never played in the state of pennsylvania..so maybe there things are different </font>

i believe my original post IS the way the rule is followed around MOST of the world....
IF a td in nick's tournament world is not the td :D

<font color="blue"> on this i agree but in over 10 years of playing events all over the country and in canada..except for drop zones,i have almost never heard a td say you MUST play it from last IB....granted i have never played in the state of pennsylvania..so maybe there things are different </font>



Keith, I live in Pennsylvania and trust me, things aren't different here. Nick is, as usual, full of [I'm a potty-mouth!].

I understand your frustrations guys. but why can't you restrain yourselves.
I know you don't want to, but take your feuds elsewhere please.

Lung can't take his feuds elsewhere. He uses his computer to start feuds, and is too chicken to take them elsewhere. The computer is where he's the super hero. In real life it's cluck cluck.

The point is that there is no loop hole. Either the TD limits the options or does not. In my experience last point over in bounds is used most often by TDs. If your experience is different, then, well, it is different. The rule still has no loop holes.

There is no feud. I like messing with Keith and the others are on ignore. Keith knows me about as well as Adam and with his reading and writing skills it's amazing he knows that much...

...and with his disc golf skills....

Lung can't take his feuds elsewhere. He uses his computer to start feuds, and is too chicken to take them elsewhere. The computer is where he's the super hero. In real life it's cluck cluck.



Morgan, is that you? Come on, it's Jeff's Birthday. Be nice....and btw, pay your membership dues.

Thanks a bunch Robert, I was living blissfully in peace with Morgan on Ignore but you quoted him and now I have to read his garbage. What's really funny is how Nick claims he has me on Ignore but then responds to points I make.

What's also really funny is a National Tour event a few months ago when I cackled in glee as Morgan got his disc stuck 30 feet up in a tree. And what does he do? Complain to the Tournament Director. Seems like he was the one that was cluck cluck in real life.

There is no feud. I like messing with Keith and the others are on ignore. Keith knows me about as well as Adam and with his reading and writing skills it's amazing he knows that much... <font color="blue"> for once nick is correct..i don't know adam that well either ;)

but for the record I NEVER agreed with it being a loophole so again nick has agreed with my wisdom :D</font>

happy birthday jeff!

swearing deleted

You guys just don't get it.
Please put me on your ignore list and I will do the same for you.

Maybe this is a good time to actually paste the rule into the discussion

803.08 OUT OF BOUNDS

B. A player whose disc is considered out-of-bounds shall receive one penalty throw. The player may elect to play the next shot from: (1) The previous lie as evidenced by the marker disc or, if the marker disc has been moved from an approximate lie, as agreed to by the majority of the group or an official; or (2) A lie that is up to one meter away from and perpendicular to the point where the disc last crossed into out-of-bounds, as determined by a majority of the group or an official. This holds true even if the direction takes the lie closer to the hole; or (3) Within the designated Drop Zone, if provided. These options may be limited by the tournament director as a special condition (see 804.01).


and

804.01 SPECIAL CONDITIONS

A. Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course shall be clearly defined and disseminated to all players prior to the start of the tournament.



Why call it a loophole? If it was not clearly defined by the TD....and the mini is still there....you can go back and take your shot.

I think B.O.B and Nick played in enough tournaments, and they know where the TD clearly defined that rule. And the few tourneys I have been in....no TD ever addressed this issue before the tourney started.

he's calling it a loophole because in his example, that how it feels. and he's right... it feels like a gift to the person who knows the rules and uses it to his advantage.

this is a great one to know and use... a shout out to the original poster for bringing it up

What's also really funny is a National Tour event a few months ago when I cackled in glee as Morgan got his disc stuck 30 feet up in a tree. And what does he do? Complain to the Tournament Director. Seems like he was the one that was cluck cluck in real life.



I was at that NT and I believe it was Nick that went and cried like a 12 year old school girl to the TD when you told him about Morgans disc getting stuck 30 ft up in a tree :eek: :p :D

Why call it a loophole? If it was not clearly defined by the TD....and the mini is still there....you can go back and take your shot.



The lie does not need to still be there.


Glossary
<font color="blue">Approximate Lie: </font>A lie established by the player's group in order to resume play: to correct a misplay from out-of-bounds (801.04 B (4)), following the thrower's election to throw from the previous lie after throwing out-of-bounds (803.08 B (1)), following an instance where the thrower's disc has been thrown and removed by another player (803.09 B), following a lost disc (803.10 B), following a lost marker disc (803.10 D), or following a rain or hazardous conditions delay (804.04 C).

....but what if the marker has been picked up, and the group can't decide on an approximate lie (because they are mean)? What if there is no official in sight?

It's the player's call to be challenged. :)

The point is that there is no loop hole. Either the TD limits the options or does not. In my experience last point over in bounds is used most often by TDs.


Claro; no loophole, but since it's obviously not a safety issue, WHY do TDs made the declaration? to make it harder? speed-of-play?

What's also really funny is a National Tour event a few months ago when I cackled in glee as Morgan got his disc stuck 30 feet up in a tree. And what does he do? Complain to the Tournament Director. Seems like he was the one that was cluck cluck in real life.



I was at that NT and I believe it was Nick that went and cried like a 12 year old school girl to the TD when you told him about Morgans disc getting stuck 30 ft up in a tree :eek: :p :D



I was at that tournament too and I know you weren't around for any of what happened. His brief account above is not even close to accurate. Every person that was there agrees that Jeff was out of line. All I asked was that Jeff be told that such behavior is out of line. Only when he go to his "real world" (this message board) and started bragging about it did I ask for any official sanction or warning.

I don't wish to cause Jeff any further agrevation just that it be made clear to him that his actions and behavior as a volunteer during a National Tour event were completely unacceptable. I'm not sure if he is the sort of person to ever accept responsibility for his own actions or not, so far seems like he is not, but the PDGA, the TD of that event, and all PDGA players should be aware that such rude and inconsiderate behavior is unacceptable.

Yes, I realize he says he was kidding around, thing is, as everyone who REALLY WAS THERE, except him, knows, he was not kidding around, he was unashamedly being a d!ck.

None of which has to do with this topic other than he now follows me around on this message board being a d!ck in perpetuity.

My understanding is that the "Provisional Lie" rule is being rewritten as well, so that if the player or group (or spotter) can not easily determine the status of the disc that a provisional shot be immediately thrown. So there should be little need for walking all the way back and the group determining the approximate lie.

The more likely result of this is that groups will need to send a spotter ahead more often so that the determination of status can immediately be made (or for TDs to procure more spotters on holes where they are likely to be needed). Both of which should in theory speed up play.

Groups having to make judgment calls on approximate lies should be way more rare than they currently are.

I was at that tournament too and I know you weren't around for any of what happened. His brief account above is not even close to accurate. Every person that was there agrees that Jeff was out of line. All I asked was that Jeff be told that such behavior is out of line. Only when he go to his "real world" (this message board) and started bragging about it did I ask for any official sanction or warning.

I don't wish to cause Jeff any further agrevation just that it be made clear to him that his actions and behavior as a volunteer during a National Tour event were completely unacceptable. I'm not sure if he is the sort of person to ever accept responsibility for his own actions or not, so far seems like he is not, but the PDGA, the TD of that event, and all PDGA players should be aware that such rude and inconsiderate behavior is unacceptable.

Yes, I realize he says he was kidding around, thing is, as everyone who REALLY WAS THERE, except him, knows, he was not kidding around, he was unashamedly being a d!ck.




By "every person there," in Nick's world, of course means three or four people.

And what happened with that "official sanction or warning?" Looks like your letter to the Disciplinary Committee wasn't too effective. I never received any official sanction or warning from them. There's no indication you even sent a letter or that they even reviewed it if you did.

Face it, Nick. No one is going to back up your weak accusations, lack of a backbone, and your disagreeable personality. I talk to people at tournaments, random draw doubles, and casual rounds - that is my real world. And whether on the message board or in real life, you're not the kind of person people want as a leader. Every day you turn a new person off. I guarantee you, the longer you persist, the increasingly uphill a road you will encounter.

And whether you say you have me on Ignore or not, I know you read every single word I write, you d!ck.

Here's another loophole for you. Did you know that while it is a 2-stroke penalty for a player to pick up another player's disc at rest, that there is NO PENALTY for picking up your own disc and not marking it?

...at rest or in-play, the penalty is still two throws. :eek: /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

By "every person there," in Nick's world, of course means three or four people.

And what happened with that "official sanction or warning?" Looks like your letter to the Disciplinary Committee wasn't too effective. I never received any official sanction or warning from them. There's no indication you even sent a letter or that they even reviewed it if you did.

Face it, Nick. No one is going to back up your weak accusations, lack of a backbone, and your disagreeable personality. I talk to people at tournaments, random draw doubles, and casual rounds - that is my real world. And whether on the message board or in real life, you're not the kind of person people want as a leader. Every day you turn a new person off. I guarantee you, the longer you persist, the increasingly uphill a road you will encounter.

And whether you say you have me on Ignore or not, I know you read every single word I write, you d!ck.



Word!

Here's another loophole for you. Did you know that while it is a 2-stroke penalty for a player to pick up another player's disc at rest, that there is NO PENALTY for picking up your own disc and not marking it?



Mike, did you know that you are about as consistently wrong about our rules as you are an ***** to the PDGA?

If a player picks up their disc prior to marking it they receive a warning for violation of the Marking Your Lie rule. Each time they do it after that it is a one-throw penalty.

Inadvertently moved discs get placed back where they were. Picking a disc up certainly is not "inadvertent".

If another player moves it, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

You might want to read the rules before making such misleading statements.

At rest = "In play"...it doesn't have to be in-the-air. :o

I was at that NT and I believe it was Nick that went and cried like a 12 year old school girl to the TD when you told him about Morgans disc getting stuck 30 ft up in a tree :eek: :p :D



I had no idea all this was going on. I think it's kind of funny. People were writing letters and stuff? How humorous.

Seems sort of weird if you axe me.

http://www.tealpoint.com/screens/gallery/zzzzz.gif

Thanks for the clarification there Mr. Kight. Doesn't strike you as odd that it's a 2 stroke penalty for picking up someone else's disc, but just a warning for picking up your own? If I was a cheater I think I could use that rule to my advantage by picking up my disc from behind a tree and relocating it closer to the fairway, eh? But we all know the rules are just perfect like you eh Nick? I wonder how long I'll be banned for this post.

Thanks for the clarification there Mr. Kight. Doesn't strike you as odd that it's a 2 stroke penalty for picking up someone else's disc, but just a warning for picking up your own? If I was a cheater I think I could use that rule to my advantage by picking up my disc from behind a tree and relocating it closer to the fairway, eh?


That would make you more an ideaot than a cheater Mike, since you would still have to return it to where it was. Which also seems to be self-evident.

But we all know the rules are just perfect like you eh Nick? I wonder how long I'll be banned for this post.


The same amount of time I banned you before: 0:00:00. I'm not monitoring anymore and when I was I only monitored folks already banned by Theo or Terry.

So much for the big bad PDGA. I'm not saying the rules are perfect either, just that in these cases there is no challenge or grey areas. When there are, I will be the first to acknowledge them.

why wouldn't the penalty be the same?

i think the penalty should be the same. if you can't see the reason, you're as blind as a blindfolded bat, which i wish i was when i saw the nekked pix of your mom.

why wouldn't the penalty be the same?

i think the penalty should be the same. if you can't see the reason, you're as blind as a blindfolded bat, which i wish i was when i saw the nekked pix of your mom.



The thing is if you picked up your own disc and then moved it. That would be cheating and you would be DQed not just given a 2 strokes penalty.

Also if it was a 2 stroke pentaly to pick up your own disc you would have to leave every disc you threw where it landed because every time you picked one up to put it in your bag you would recieve a 2 stroke penalty. So maybe you should just shut drop it because you look more and more like a cheater every time you post on this thread :eek:

I guess that makes sense Pimp, but, what if you weren't trying to cheat, and forgot to mark your disc before you picked it up? that's as inadvertant as picking up someone else's disc, is it not? why then i ask, why shouldn't you be penalized 2 strokes?

if i was a cheater, i'd be champ of the USDGC by foot faulting a lot.

I guess that makes sense Pimp, but, what if you weren't trying to cheat, and forgot to mark your disc before you picked it up? that's as inadvertant as picking up someone else's disc, is it not? why then i ask, why shouldn't you be penalized 2 strokes?



Its pretty hard to inadvertanly pick up someone elses disc. If you cant remember what disc you threw and where you threw it on a hole then you deserve the 2 stroke penalty for picking up someone elses disc.

actually, its pretty easy to do in some cases. i did it once myself. parallel adjacent fairways in opposite directions, and we both threw baby blue XLs to roughly the same spot. when i got to what i thought was mine, i was really disappointed cuz i thought i had chucked it further. i marked the spot, picked it up, and chunked it again. ooops. then it turned over and went into some nasty woods/shule. oooops again. both groups spect about 02:57 looking before we found the other guys disc that i had picked up then thrown. 2 strokes. inadvertant. not cheating intended.

OK, class is dismissed for the day. Teacher is too tired of talking to students with closed minds and herpes sores on their lips. That doesn't apply to you sandal.

That title change was very mature.

Are you really going to stroke someone just for picking up another persons disc anyway???

It's a rule, isn't it? And you call yourself a pro? No wonder this sport is a joke, when our pros won't even call a rules violation.

Actually im not a pro.

The thing is if you pick up a disc look at the markings and see that it is not yours. Then you can place it right back where you picked it up from with no harm done.

Maybe disc golf is a joke because of people like you :eek:

Where is this rule anyway???

This is more a rules anomaly, than a loophole...picking-up someone else's disc does seem 'more' of a violation...'less' excuse for doing so. Perhaps you're asking if the first time shouldn't be [just] a warning, also, for picking-up another's disc? :cool:

actually, its pretty easy to do in some cases.



That is one of the reasons I boldly write my initials on the top side of my discs in several places.

The other reason I write my initials on the top is that if people find discs I loose and do not return them, it will be easier to spot them carrying and throwing them. Incidentally, it is very hard to get Sharpie ink off the top side compared to how easy it is to get off the bottom side.

sandalman, should you have gotten 4 penalty strokes for that? 2 for interference and another 2 for playing the wrong lie?

Just wondering. They were two separate acts, moving the other person's disc and throwing from their lie.

Actually im not a pro.




YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!

And, this sport is a joke because the rules are very vague and seldom enforced.

Actually im not a pro.




YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!



Atleast I can be honest with myself. I know im an am which is why I play am. From the looks of your stats you just tell yourself your a pro when you really arent :eek:

Oh by the way you only get a 2 stroke penalty if you purposly pick up someone elses disc and move it.

The rule states

Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification , shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official.

So the only way you are getting a 2 stroke penalty is if you pick it up realize its not yours and either put it in your bag and throw from that lie or if you dont put it right back where you picked it up from.

So maybe our sport is a joke because people who think they are pros dont even know how to read the rules :eek:

see, in real golf, there wouldn't be a loophole called "conciously". but, trying to explain the concept of honor and sportsmanship to a disc golfer is like trying to tell someone from michigan not to be a complete dirtbag. oh and if i'm not a pro, how did i qualify for the USDGC? it wasn't because i ran some tournament, or sucked up to some sponsor, you chump. you couldn't beat me at tiddlywinks.

see, in real golf, there wouldn't be a loophole called "conciously". but, trying to explain the concept of honor and sportsmanship to a disc golfer is like trying to tell someone from michigan not to be a complete dirtbag. oh and if i'm not a pro, how did i qualify for the USDGC? it wasn't because i ran some tournament, or sucked up to some sponsor, you chump. you couldn't beat me at tiddlywinks.



All you have to do is be at the right qualifyer and just about anyone can qualify. Just because you qualifyed for the USDGC doesnt mean your a pro. It just means that you played good enough to beat the people who werent already qualifyed.

Your really mature though. Calling all peopl from MI dirtbags and calling me a homosexual. Thats impressive. And that 967 rating. WATCH OUT!!! You are AWESOME!!!

Anytime you care to put your money where your mouth is just let me know :D

trying to explain the concept of honor and sportsmanship to a disc golfer is like trying to tell someone from michigan not to be a complete dirtbag


Most AMs from MI would tear you apart on the course.

only homo's look at ratings you yankee scum. i wish you michigan chumps had enough betting money to make it worth my while.

only homo's look at ratings you yankee scum. i wish you michigan chumps had enough betting money to make it worth my while.



you like school in summer ... NO CLASS!

only homo's look at ratings you yankee scum. i wish you michigan chumps had enough betting money to make it worth my while.



Hes just mad because he made a rediculous statement and got called out on it.

Like I said before. Anytime you want to put your money where your mouth is let me know. Because from the looks of it you only win money 20 percent of the times you play for it and one of those times you had to leave the country :eek: :eek: :eek:

only homo's look at ratings you yankee scum. i wish you michigan chumps had enough betting money to make it worth my while.



Howdy, now that's a strongly worded post.

Howdy, now that's a strongly worded post.



Hey Conners why dont you do this man a favor and tell him what happend last time people ran their mouths about me and my game and then came and played a tournament against me??? :eek: :D

why should he, you just did.

finally, some threads worth reading! this ne and the Tx States thread are fun this week! :D

A couple was expecting their first child. He wanted a boy, she wanted a girl.
Then Mike was born, and they both got their wish.

Mike's mom is so fat I had to roll over 3 times to get off her...

How old are you guys? 14, 15 maybe? I sure hope neither of you procreate. :p

When in Rome...

Mikey secretly likes me. It's obvious in a 14 year old junior high school flirtatious way...

You guys are really going too far. If you dont like each other just dont talk its what me and my ex's do all the time. Let this thread die.

this is all i have to say...Nick started it! :p

my apologies to my many fans for letting the board scum get under my skin. :D

this is all i have to say...Nick started it! :p

my apologies to my many fans for letting the board scum get under my skin. :D



See!