1. I make poor choices when it comes to drivers. As much as I enjoy my 169g CE Valkyrie, it's just too unpredictable and flippy for everyday use. I have a 175g translucent candy JK Valkyrie from the first run of Proline after CE went the way of the buffalo, and this resists high speed turn very nicely and provides a straight consistent flight path. However, not all situations call for a driver with its strong point being speed, so I'm thinking something like a Champion Teebird might be in order, but I'm a bit worried that it's too overstable for my everday, straight flying use. Something that will allow me to throttle back and get a predictable consistent throw. Any suggestions?

2. My midranges stay in the bag too much. I have no problem at all throwing my extremely "seasoned" DX Roc 300+ feet, but I usually throw drivers instead. Like the aforementioned CE Valkyrie. Bad idea. Anyhoo, there's a bit of a hole in my bag between the Roc, max weight '02 CE Roc, and gummy candy Proline Spider. The Spider in wind is bad news, and the CE Roc is overstable. What's a good fit for the middle? I like Innova and all, but the Z-MRV is looking very appealing, especially because the mold fits my hand better than Adam fit E...okay let's just say it fits very well. Perhaps a Z-Buzzz. Basically something that will hold whatever I throw it on, whether it be straight, annie, or most importantly, won't flip up and turn way over when I hyzer it.

3. I suck at putting. Badly. This is largely due to never getting consistent with one putter. Soft Magnet is too floppy, JK Aviar-X is looking like my choice. Opinions?

4. Since I throw my midranges quite a way, I also throw my putters quite a way too. So I should be using my putters on far longer approaches than I do, again, which I don't. Mainly because I don't have one that fits that niche. Something like a Champion Aviar. I want it to fly straight with nice glide, but not be extremely flippy. Suggestions?

So that's basically it. In the few tournaments I played as a ghetto fabulous amateur before quitting for a few years, those 4 points were what kept me top just top 5 instead of numero uno.

1) any driver that is more stable will be more predictable. if you go with slower drivers you can use height to manipulate carry moreso than trying to adjust power. i'm not a fan of the champ teebird but a lot of people are. it is, however, a more consistent finisher than teebirds in other plastics. there are a ton of drivers that fall into this category. teebird, eagle, cyclone, and gazelle to name a few.

2) what about a newer dx roc? candy plastics are more likely to be squirrely and fade earlier/flex out of an anhyzer. just about any stable midrange will hold a line if you throw it correctly. roc, buzz, element x, mrv are a few discs that come to mind.

3) if any soft putter feels too floppy, my advice is to go with a firm putter. personally, i can putt almost equally well with nearly anything inside 30' (and no wind). sounds more like the weakness is your putting form moreso than choice of putter. if that is the case, i would choose a putter that is stable into the wind and will fly well as a putter, approach, and off the tee. there's only a handful of putters that imo are capable of doing this well. wizard, big bead aviar, challenger, magnet.

4) general rule of thumb is to throw the slowest disc you can comfortably reach your target with. this is generally a putter. if you are limited by wind, ceiling, etc. you may need to disc up. unless your preference is to take a steep angle hyzer on your approaches with a driver or midrange, you are most likely best off throwing a putter. if you want straight + glide, i would look away from champ/z plastic for the same reasons mentioned in #2.

All good advice, but as a poor college student playing on a heavily wooded course, I need the indestructible stuff. My beat DX Roc does everything I need in normal winds, but it's the slight/steady headwind where I'm missing something. I'm just worried the Z-Buzzz (max) will be too understable, and the Z-MRV will be more overstable than I want, since I've already got the CE Roc in that position..

As for the putting...I'm fairly good with the Soft Magnet, but the mental aspect of feeling like the disc is going to drip out of my hand doesn't help. Is the JK Aviar-X of the same very soft stuff as the Magnet, or does it feel a bit more solid?

seems like you want everything from a disc in terms of both durability and performance and that doesn't really happen that much. if you dig hard enough you can probably find standard plastic that is cheap enough to go 3:1 vs. champion/z. also keeping in mind that midranges/putters generally have a much longer lifespan in standard plastic than most drivers. with sufficient rotation i can keep rocs "alive" for 3+ years.

the z mrv is similar stability to a new dx roc. the z buzz varies a lot from run to run but in general is less stable than a new dx roc.

the jk aviar varies a lot in stiffness from run to run, but generally is similar stiffness to a soft magnet. putters in soft plastic also generally have more fade at very low speeds. if you like the magnet but don't want floppy you are probably best off just getting a regular magnet.

I really wouldn't worry so much about having "indestructable" discs. I've got some DX plastic in my bag that's over 12 years old and it shows. But these discs are still as reliable (if not more so) than the day I bought them. Most of them are still in great shape except for a couple of obvious taco's but even those still do the trick.

I like DX much better personally. Sometimes a disc will get beat-in in such a way that it'll do one thing really well. For example I have an old '91 Raven that will always go right and will always stand up and roll on long shots. It's a taco too, but it's beautiful and I can count on it for those long anhyzers.

DX is also half the price of Champion plastic (as you know) so you could try two molds for the price of one.

Learning how to ease-up a bit might help your technique as well. I play on a couple of short wooded courses regularly and I had to learn a little more finesse and take off some power to improve my game at these courses. It's a totally different game than playing longer, more open courses.

1. You might think about trying a Sidewinder. This as turned into one of my favortie drivers. I use one that's 175g. You can throw it with a hyzer release and it will flatten out and glide forever. Since it has a lot of glide, it's something that you can throw with less power (throttle down) and you'll still get distance. Which could be helpful in wooded areas with a low ceiling. Also, you can throw the Sidewinder anhyzer, and it'll hold that line for a long time. The only problem I find with the Sidewinder is it can hang out to the right too long before coming back. This gets me in trouble on one hole where I'm trying to hit a gap that's 250' away. If it hangs out too long I'll hit a tree on the right.

2. My Buzz is my favorite disc in my bag. It quickly took the place of my Roc. The Buzz is very easy to throw, and it'll hold any line you put on it. Also, it doesnt flip over for me. It'll will only go Anny if I want it to. I can't say that for my DX Roc. The Buzz seems to have more glide than a Roc too. Which would be helpful with low ceiling shots. For example, one hole I regulary play has a low ceiling, and I would consistently be short of the hole. Now, with my Buzz, I'm getting to the hold no problem due to the glide. Recently I've been forcing myself to rediscover my Roc since it's just been rotting in my bag. It looks like I'll be using the Buzz for mostly drives, and I'll be using my Roc on approach shots I want to put right under the basket. I also have a ZMRV, however I havent found a regular use for it yet. But, it throws very nice, and doesnt have as much glide as the Buzz.

3. I had the same problem as you, I hate the floppy feeling of a soft putter. I now putt with a Big Bead Aviar and I love it. It's stiffer than a regular Aviar.

4. Not much comment. As someone said before, choose the slowest disc that you can throw comfortably that distance.

I guess sorry this was so long, but basically everything you asked about I have recently had the same problem.

You know, I'd never heard the 'slowest disc' thing before. Why is this?

I tend to throw the fastest disc I can because I think to myself 'the faster it gets there, the less time the wind has to get it.'

I'm curious why this is, and maybe it'll actually help my game.

Slower discs are less likely to fly or skip past the basket. If a slow speed disc misses the basket to the right at the same speed as a high speed disc, it will drop faster and hence be a shorter distance away from the basket. If you are good at having a high speed disc hit the ground before the basket and skip up underneath it, thats good too, except for all the other negative things that correlate with high speed discs : ).

Faster discs are more Unpredictable and thus less consistent... You could throw your putter and end up within 10 feet of your target whereas you'd probably end up 15-20 feet away from your target with a driver.

Also. The driver will fade more at the end of it's flight so you can get more skip-outs and stuff like that.

Slower DIscs are easier to control and will hold the line you want with less turn during it's flight. THat's the bottom line.

-Scott Lewis

The slower speed discs allow a bigger margin for error. For most people it's easier to throw at near full power than to "throttle down" and guess how much power to throw with. For a simple example, let's say a high speed disc has a range of 0-300', and a midrange has a range from 0-250'. If you make an error in your power the high speed disc will show it more. Let's say you're off by 10%. That's a 30 foot error for high speed, and a 25 foot error for midrange. Also, the flight path for the high speed discs change at lower speeds. Most of the discs become more stable when thrown at low speeds. So, not only is the distance harder to judge, but the flight path of the high speed discs will change at different speeds. But, you could also use this you your advantage on some shots. In general, midrange disc flight paths dont change very much at different speeds.

Take the drivers out of your bag, and play for a week with nothing but mids and putters. I thought that advice would kill my game, but by the end of that week, I was actually getting some of my best scores ever.

When I put the drivers back in, I noticed that I was more consistant with slighly slower, easier to control drivers ... eagle, XL, and JLS. somedays my old arm does not have enough snap for the high speed stuff, and getting a good line is more important than that extra 20 or 30 feet, especially if you don't know if it will flip. Making friends with your cheetah and leopard again also helps ... they will never fly a mile, but they will remain true to the line you put them on.

The Gateway Element, and Element X make a nice addition to the mid range lineup. I also really like the Millennium Sentinal MF ... it will flip up to flat, but never flip over.... makes great line drive up shots with a predictable fade at the end.

I'd also like to recommend the Gateway Wizard. A very large selection of firmness, with the stability to use off the teepad for shorter holes. The E plastic is very durable, but with a great feel.

ChrisWoj,

Generally, you can control slower moving discs, putters/midranges/fairway drivers better then high speed drivers.

The distances are all relative. You an I may throw a completely different disc on a 350ft flat open hole. I would choose a wide sweeping hyzer with a Wasp, you may prefer an Orc. It doesn't matter what you throw.

You basically need to know the capabilities of your discs and what they do. Now on that 350ft hole, where I choose the Wasp with Hyzer. Lets take out the hyzer route with trees. Now it becomes a stable Buzzz shot. Add a slight up hill elevation change <20ft, it has become an XL shot. Now, add a 10-15mph headwind, it has become a Teebird shot. If it changes to a 350ft downhill >20ft change with a tail wind, I will throw a stable putter like a Cryztal Challenger.

Regardless of what you choose to throw on those holes, the important thing is to know what disc will get there the easiest in those conditions with the lowest possibility of errors.

All factors held constant, a disc like the Wraith (speed 11!) will have a larger margin of error then an Aviar. So on that 200ft hole, which is an expected duece, throw the aviar you have a better percentage chance of being accurate then you would with the high speed Wraith.

An additional benefit to knowing the limitations and characteristics of your discs (and if you carry a good number of discs) is that when stepping on the teebox, you can pick the disc for the route, and throw the same throw over and over again. It is the same concept as having 14 clubs in a golf bag. Why force a 3 iron to do the job of a 7 iron. Same principle applies here, why make a Roc do the job of an Aviar?

I think I'm going to go with a 173g-175g Z-MRV, 175g Aviar P&A (I believe this is the mold I used before the disc had an unfortunate meeting with a water hazard), and either a Pro TeeBird-L or a QJLS if I can find one. I've had a few throws with one and liked it a lot, not flippy, not overstable, just a smooth straight flyer.

The Z-MRV at 175g is going to be less overstable than my 180g '02 CE Roc, correct?

The Z-MRV at 175g is going to be less overstable than my 180g '02 CE Roc, correct?



Yes because the MRV maxes out at 178. It will be similar to a brand new 177 DX Roc.

I kind of get you, though I definitely don't throw an orc on 350s... I've actually never touched one. And I do understand throwing a putter on a short hole (200-250)... I love throwing the aviar or the aero on shorter holes (aero for anny, aviar for straight, oh and rhynos for dinker hyzers)... I was just thinking of the difference between throwing oh, a wraith on a 400 and a slower disc like a valk or teebird on a 400... the valk or teebird would be more accurate because they're slower then?

That should fit just the niche I'm looking for. I've played a couple rounds with just an MRV (In fact the same MRV that got 2000+ posts in the "How do I throw my MRV" thread) and a putter and it performed quite well. I really like the feel of the disc in my hand, so I'd use it for just about any straight/hyzer drive under around 330-350.

You can't go wrong with the 175 Aviar P&A in my opinion. Great putters AND approach discs just like it says.

that pro TL will get very flippy once it's beat in. i personally prefer the pro starfire... which is also flippy but it'll come back easier than a pro TL. when i say flippy... i mean like sidewinder flippy. Q-JLS is also similar to a TL but due to the plastic it's straighter. champion leopards are great discs too... also straight. both have smaller lips, which i really like.

i play a tight wooded course... it's really about making sure you HIT those windows. i find sometimes taking some ooomph off your drive and throwing a glidey flippier disc is a more consistent tactic. but that's just my style.

ChrisWoj:

it is a margin of error factor, both in terms of carry, but imo, more about placement. if you are off by 2 degrees with a putter, the flight is a lot more forgiving and gradual and generally translates into about 5-10' of difference after say 250'. with a high speed driver, a 2 degree difference will often yield a difference of 30-70' at the end of the flight on a 250' throw.

in terms of length, there are two factors to consider. it is much easier to use height to limit carry with slower discs. an aviar at 10' high will peak around 200-225' of distance, simply because it will not carry farther before hitting the ground. to throw an aviar 150', you can simply lower the height to more like 5-6' high but maintain the same power. on the other hand, a disc like a starfire can travel 350'+ at 6' high... and each height change will yield a lot of distance change.

overall, slower discs (assuming they are stable and predictable finishers), will as a whole be much easier to control when it comes to accuracy.

as for the comments on the mrv, it maxes at 175-176 or so (i believe it's 21.3cm) and it is less overstable than a roc moreso because it is inherently less high speed stable and also less gyroscopic.

as for the comments on the mrv, it maxes at 175-176 or so (i believe it's 21.3cm) and it is less overstable than a roc moreso because it is inherently less high speed stable and also less gyroscopic.



I could be wrong, but I swear I have seen a 178 MRV. So don't lynch me for not knowing everything about a disc that I have not touched for over a year. I guess stability is in the arm of the disc holder because I thought that Z-MRV's were about the same stability as a DX Roc. But I have now been shown the light and am a faithful Buzzz and Wasp thrower for midrange shots.

I'm too big a fan of MRV's however to go out on a limb, especially when I'm already mostly set with my two Rocs. I use sort of a hybrid modified stack grip with some fan grip tendencies, and the rim depth plus shape of the MRV is to date the best disc I've ever thrown for my grip.

was likely someone messed up and wrote the actual weight on it instead of the max weight hehe. i saw a z xtreme that said 17X4. under the X was an 8.

i should hope you know how to throw the MRV by now jed, the thread you started asking how to throw it like 4 years ago was still king of the post counts a few months ago :P

I'm going to try to pick up a QJLS or two, if they fly like I remember, it just might become my primary driver.

I'm going to try to pick up a QJLS or two, if they fly like I remember, it just might become my primary driver.



I like the QJLS because I find it has a stability similar to a somewhat beat in DX Teebird, but is much more durable. It may be a bit shorter, but I don't think it's that big of a problem.

I'm going to try to pick up a QJLS or two, if they fly like I remember, it just might become my primary driver.



I love the mold, but if you shop online you can still find it in the older plastics. I just bought a JLS in run 1.8 which has a lot of CE plastic in it making it very durable and very grippy. The cool part was it was only $7 plus shipping, even cheaper than the new candy plastic.

So, I just got two 171g used QJLS's on eBay for $13.50 with shipping. If eBay hadn't been ******* and not placed my bid properly, I'd have had a third for about $2-3 more. Oh well, 2 should be enough for me for a while.