I ran into an interesting situation in the last tournament I played. We were playing on a mountain course, and many people lost discs throughout the tournament. On one particular hole, a guy went to look for his disc, and found 4-5 other discs. Once he brought them up, all the guys in the group started whining about how they didn't have room in their bags, and how they weren't somebody else's b****, and they all refused to carry any of the discs found. I actually ran in to this problem with two seperate groups. I was in shock. Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Keep in mind, I never lost a disc that tournament, but I ended up bringing 6-7 down the mountain with me throughout the tournament. I would only hope that more people would do this.

when i have lost a disc in a tourny i have been very grateful that someone has returned it and not kept it for their own or left it where it was. what the people could do instead of b**** would be to write down the owners name and leave the discs at the next tee then post the names at t.c. well that's one thing in can think of to counter the laziness in our culture.
out

Yes , it does still happen. Happened to me.

I always carry a Sanfords marker and put my name on the top and bottom of every disc I throw.

This prevents any mistaken identity as well.

You can put your phone number on it, if you so choose to. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

While the desire to be helpful is commendable, it should be noted that any time one picks up a disc other than one's own during a tournament, one runs the risk of incurring a two throw penalty for interference:


803.06 Interference
C. Any player who consciously alters the course of a thrown disc, or consciously moves or obscures another player's thrown disc at rest or a marker disc, other than by the action of a competitively thrown disc or in the process of identification, shall receive two penalty throws, without a warning, if observed by any two players or an official


Additional penalties may be incurred should one or more of the discs turn out to be illegal (802.01).

While it is rarely the case that discs found in OB bodies of water are in play, it can easily be the case that a disc in play on one hole might end up in or across the fairway of a second, nearby hole or in the rough between two adjacent holes, and picked up by a player on the second hole in the mistaken belief that the disc is lost. (I've seen it happen on more than one occasion.)

Because players can, and frequently do, trade used discs, those risks are present even in the circumstance where one finds a disc having the name of a player one knows not to be present at the tournament.

For me, disc golf�even tournament disc golf�is a pleasant diversion, so while I am willing to accept the risk associated with picking up and carrying a disc I might find to carry to tournament central, I cannot fault the serious, competitive disc golfer for whom tournament disc golf is a serious pursuit and therefore decline to accept the risk.

Ok, I figured it was only a matter of time before this came up. The discs I am talking about were all O.B.(i.e. off the side of the mountain) and I don't really think this was a concern of any of the players. I guess I was just suprised that these guys were so PUT OUT at the idea of picking up a lost disc and carrying it back. I will always do this for others, and I thought that everyone else would feel the same. Besides doesn't the rule state "consciously"?

Ok, I figured it was only a matter of time before this came up. The discs I am talking about were all O.B.(i.e. off the side of the mountain) and I don't really think this was a concern of any of the players.

Doesn't matter whether they were OB or IB, since neither the interference nor the illegal disc rule discriminates between OB and IB discs. You still run the risk of causing interference by picking up a disc other than your own, regardless of where you found it. Additionally, one cannot simply assume that a disc is OB because one finds it in an OB area: it is sometimes the case that an OB area is hole-specific, e.g. an area is OB for one hole but not OB for an adjacent hole.


Besides doesn't the rule state "consciously"?

Unless you've come up with a way to pick up and carry a found disc that doesn't involve the intention to move the disc from its place at rest and the deliberate action of picking it up from its place at rest, you're consciously moving the disc.

Golferchic,

Never pick up a found disc during a tourney. If the disc is illegal you get stroked for carrying an illegal disc. Any other time you can bring it back but not during a tourney.

Just imagine if Tiger Woods found a lost ball during a tourney. Can you imagine him walking through the crowd saying "is this your ball." No way, it's a tournament.

These are correct interpretations. Don't pick up any discs that are not yours. Make a note as to the location and after the round either get it or let one of the event staff know about it.

This may seem like being discourteous, but consider how discourteous it is when the player arrives at the location they believe their disc to be only to not be able to locate it. Even if that involves running back because they forgot it.

Leave sleeping discs rest (at least until the end of the round).

Golferchic,

Never pick up a found disc during a tourney. If the disc is illegal you get stroked for carrying an illegal disc. Any other time you can bring it back but not during a tourney.

Just imagine if Tiger Woods found a lost ball during a tourney. Can you imagine him walking through the crowd saying "is this your ball." No way, it's a tournament.

I a took a trek down one of the lower holes on the inner loop at Aspen mountain (Kiss the Sky) to play a disc that could be seen but was easily 300 vertical feet down a very steep slope. Being stubborn and because ther was no designated drop zone for THAT hole, there was no way I was taking a couple strokes and leave my disc so I hiked down the mountain and played back up (4 strokes). The rest of the group took a break. I found a half dozen other discs while I was down the mountain. I brought them back up to the teepad. No one in the group had room in their bag and no one wanted to carry them, in hand, all the way back to the top (of Aspen mountain).

Anyway, the semi-relevant point: if I'm playing a tournament and it will take some of my energy to carry someone elses lost disc up the mountain - forget it. We left them on the teepad.

BTW, in hindsight, I should have left the d#mn disc there. It would only have cost me 2 strokes, lost disc, moving my lie, (according to the local rules zealot) and I was dead tired playing the next 2 holes while the rest of the group was well rested.

If the disc could be seen, it wasn't lost. When the pros start making money like Tiger Woods, we'll compare it to that. There was no way the discs were from other holes. I wouldn't pick up a disc if that was even a possibility.Ah, forget it you all will just nitpick this together until it is a 12 page thread, and then you will stand around and wonder why you can't get more people to play.Heaven forbid you do something nice. I would never recommend it. I guess my parents were just crazy when they taught me to do unto others what I would have them do unto me.

Lost or not the smart play would probably have been to take a two stroke unsafe lie penalty and play from somewhere on the fairway.

Picking up a presumed lost disc during a tournament as opposed to during a non-tournament round are two entirely different things, I agree with the majority, picking up someone elses disc during a turney is risky period.

Lost or not the smart play would probably have been to take a two stroke unsafe lie penalty and play from somewhere on the fairway.

Picking up a presumed lost disc during a tournament as opposed to during a non-tournament round are two entirely different things, I agree with the majority, picking up someone elses disc during a turney is risky period.

The two-strokes, infinite relief back to the fairway rule will probably be abolished in 2006. Also, lost disc is likely to become a situation where you must walk back to your original lie and throw with a penalty. Absent a special situation drop zone, in 2006 it is likely that every player who throws down that mountain will have to walk down that mountain and play back up.

When I was on the Board I tried to filibuster those rule changes by specifically referring to this hole. Although I've never played it, it [or one like it] has been featured in DGWN and I have played other courses with cliffs you might never be able to throw back up.

In 2006 it looks like lost disc and unplayable lie will be made much more punitive unless the disc is lost in a lake or unplayable up in a tree.

Which is fine. Some tournaments we just won't play. We take a lot of kids to tournaments. Course designers and TDs don't always think of your average 12 year old boy or girl when they design cool courses for advanced amateurs and pros. It is nice to see the PDGA following suit and reworking its rules to ignore these players also.

Yes, there is a certain ravine at this course that I have found myself in twice. It can get quite discouraging. It has a very steep incline, and I have a very hard time getting out of it. (took a nine on it the first time, was excited to get a six the second time) I threw one backhand just to have it hit and slide right back down in front of me. I can throw a drive in the 280-320 range on flat ground,but this certain throw required probably 350+ power to get out of it. I would like to see things like this marked as an o.b. for rec, int, etc. It would go a long way in getting newer players out to courses like this. Rate their rounds seperately like you would if they were playing seperate tee pads. I think these players are our future, and we need to get them out. I love the course, but I was the only woman there, and I would have a hard time convincing the other girls to come out because of things like this.

This as before any rules update would still fall on the heads of the TDs where such situations occur, NOT ON THE PDGA or our rules of play.

If there is such a situation like that (special condition) then the TD should provide appropriate relief for his/her players. The PDGA nor the PDGA Rules of Play can go to every event and force TDs to do the right thing.

Again, you see this as a litigious or legislative issue rather than one of common sense. And we all know why you filibustered the rules update and it has nothing to do with this special condition.

I just thank the disc golf gods that our PDGA Rule Committee does not follow such a muddy methodology.

From a speed of play issue, I really wouldn't like a stroke and distance penalty applied to a lost disc. The card has already spent at least 3 minutes looking for the disc, and now the card has to collect their stuff and walk back to the players previous spot, agree on where it was, and then go find their own lies. Sounds like it could create more problems than it fixes.

I really liked the 2-strokes to get back to the fairway rule. I don't see where it was unfair to the other players in the division, nor any need for it to be more punitive.

It is a little unfair that 2 discs thrown on basically the same errant line could be treated so differently depending entirely on whether the disc was found or not. I'm thinking of one hole in particular in KC Down-under. The basket sits within 3 feet of the downhill slope. Both shots slide out of sight almost inline with the basket. Both discs roll down the hill out of sight of the tee box. One disc is found near the bottom of the hill, the other is never seen again. By the current rules, the lost disc is placed three feet from the basket where it was last seen. The other is about 250' from the basket looking up a very steep hill covered in small trees. Any shot up the hill could easily roll back to the bottom. This player should invoke the 2-stroke unsafe lie rule and move back to the fairway (tee box).

One player gets an easy three, the other is basically re-teeing with a three, only because one disc was found, and the other was not.

This as before any rules update would still fall on the heads of the TDs where such situations occur, NOT ON THE PDGA or our rules of play.

It is not a matter of who to blame or sue after you make someone play a disc that got wedged on the side of a cliff face. It is a matter of having sensible rules in light of foreseeable circumstances. When the rules make taking relief from that situation more punitive, the rules increase the probability that a player will put himself in an extreme situation.

I don't care who gets sued. I get paid the same, win or lose. :D

Then the TD, who should be aware of the situation, NOT THE PDGA, should create a special condition for it. Making taking huge relief less of a penalty than playing it from it's lie makes as much sense as many of your arguments.

None.

That being said, an argument could be made that relief is given due to the hazardous situation. Not sure about that though, cause folks could say that about anything including being too near a tree for their follow through...

No, it is best for TDs to work these very obscure and unlikely special conditions out and have local rules that do not directly conflict with PDGA rules.

From a speed of play issue, I really wouldn't like a stroke and distance penalty applied to a lost disc. The card has already spent at least 3 minutes looking for the disc, and now the card has to collect their stuff and walk back to the players previous spot, agree on where it was, and then go find their own lies. Sounds like it could create more problems than it fixes.



In those situations the TD could prescribe a drop zone.

Additionally, if a player believes that their disc is likely to be lost, the rules update will encourage them to take a provisional shot in case the first disc is as "gone" as they think it is. So play should actually be much faster than having the group politic royale trying to give the guy a break on his next lie.

Gary, can you dispute any of those points with likely scenarios?

so you are suggesting that if one thinks it might be difficult to find the disc, then one should play a provisional? thats gonna lead to a LOT of provisionals, which not only will slow play but render the concept of forbidding practice throws rather meaningless.

playing a lost disc from where it was last seen makes sense. going back to the spot of the previous throw and taking a penalty stroke is a double penalty. can you dispute that?

I could see provisionals getting out of hand on a wooded course. Locally we have a hole that has a blind OB on the right and OB in water on the left. During casual (practice play) or minis provisionals are used. But during tourneys we pretty much try to have a spotter. Or other cards watch the throw and call it safe or not. Works here.

If you throw one shot on a hole that has a good possibility of getting lost, what is to say the provisional (where you are now trying to make up a stroke) is going to be safe.

Some players are more likely to lose the provisional because they are trying harder and more likely to lose control of the shot.

Now you walk down the fairway, the first shot is barely in the woods, but the provisional is lost.

I could see provisionals getting out of hand on a wooded course. Locally we have a hole that has a blind OB on the right and OB in water on the left. During casual (practice play) or minis provisionals are used. But during tourneys we pretty much try to have a spotter. Or other cards watch the throw and call it safe or not. Works here.



So you are saying that on holes where there is a strong likelihood of OB or lost disc a spotter is advisable so that folks on the tee will know better when a provisional is necessary or not, right?

Reasonable.