can someone answer a few questions regarding ob for me. if a disc crosses (in the air) the ob line and then skips off a bridge that crosses ob territory should the disc be played from where it crossed the ob line in the air or where it skipped off the bridge?? can you clarify where in the rulebook this is noted. o.k. second question: when a disc retrieval stick (one that has been painted and is an official part of course equipment) has been left leaning against a tree and your disc lands behind the stick can you legally lay the stick flat on the ground??? where in the rule book does it note your answer?
thanks

The mark is the last place the disc is over or touching an inbounds line. If the bridge is inbounds where the disc hit it, then that would likely be the last point IB. If the bridge and the area around it was all OB, then the mark would be where you said the disc flew over the IB/OB line.

Technically, the OB retrieval stick cannot be moved unless someone in your group saw another player using the stick earlier in the round (803.04B). However, I might consider grabbing the stick and say I'm going fishing to maybe help find other players' discs, then conveniently place the stick in another position. We should have something in our rules that allows for retrieval equipment like this to be relocated during the round. I know I've seen prefab 2m sticks all over Seneca to help measure and knock down discs.

I'm not sure what a PDGA marshal would do in this situation. If I were a marshal, I might be inclined to grab the stick myself since there's no penalty for that in the rules. I'm pretty sure that most of us have looked along the banks of water bodies looking for branches long enough to retrieve a disc. I suspect few of us stopped to look whether the stick we found was in front of or behind our lies before picking it up and using it.

can someone answer a few questions regarding ob for me. if a disc crosses (in the air) the ob line and then skips off a bridge that crosses ob territory should the disc be played from where it crossed the ob line in the air or where it skipped off the bridge?? can you clarify where in the rulebook this is noted.

Assuming you don't elect to play from the previous lie, you play it where it was last IB, wherever that is: if the bridge itself is IB, play it where it was last over the bridge, which, depending on how wide the bridge is and the disc's flight path, may or may not be the point at which it made contact with the bridge. Rule 803.08.B; see also "Bridge Over OB (Multiple Playing Surfaces)" in the Rules Q & A.


o.k. second question: when a disc retrieval stick (one that has been painted and is an official part of course equipment) has been left leaning against a tree and your disc lands behind the stick can you legally lay the stick flat on the ground??? where in the rule book does it note your answer?
thanks

If it's considered part of the course, it cannot not be moved (803.04.A); if it's a casual obstacle between the lie and the hole, it cannot be moved unless it is known to have become a factor during the round (803.04c(1)); if it's a non-casual obstacle between the lie and the hole, it cannot be moved unless it it known to have become a factor during the round (803.04.B); if the TD has declared a special condition granting unlimited relief from the stick regardless of circumstances, relief may be taken in accordance with the stipulations of the special conditon (804.01).

If it is my tournament, I'll rule that the disc retrieval stick was not where I saw it last before you moved it so it must have been moved there during the round, even if you're telling me it was your first throw of the tournament that landed by the stick.

Golf has had 600 years to ponder this question and I think they have the right answer. I'm sure we'll get to the right answer in 600 years. I'll just be 600 years ahead of my time.

according to the RULES of the game Felix is right as usual.

bruce is a lawyer so he's accomplished at skirting the rules. chuck must've been to law school as well it appears. :D :p

ideally, the td would make an exception for these sticks in the program or during the player's meeting and avoid the need for such flim-flammery. (note to self: add disc retrieval stick relief to hawk hollow open proram) :D

while i agree with chuck and bruce's sentiment i truly hope a pdga marshall would not offer a loose interpretation such as chuck suggests. their job should be enforcement of existing rules, not ad hoc legislation.

i truly hope a pdga marshall would not offer a loose interpretation such as chuck suggests. their job should be enforcement of existing rules, not ad hoc legislation.




That's why I probably wouldn't be appointed a marshal since they know I'm more likely to freelance where appropriate when the rules aren't explicit. Of course, in this case the marshal would be doing nothing against the rules any more than a kid coming over and borrowing the stick. The marshal's job should be to be fair and consistent, with the rules being their first point of reference, the Q&A next and the "reasonable person" third.

according to the RULES of the game Felix is right as usual.

bruce is a lawyer so he's accomplished at skirting the rules.

In this case it's more like I'm interpretting the US Constitution by citing French cases interpretting the EU Charter, but, close enough. My answer is correct under natural law, not under the rules of disc golf. :D

Our rules were written before I ever saw a disc golf course that supplied retrieval tools or had removable distance marking aides. I've seen them at tournaments since and that's a cool idea. I suspect if the rules authors had thought of such things they would have reached the same answer that golf has made explicit in its rules. The course deigner never intended that the retrieval tool should be an obstacle. Obviously it is going to move around through out the round. The rationale for treating it like an obstacle does not exist.

I'm happy to be wrong when I'm right.

My answer is correct under natural law, not under the rules of disc golf. :D

Don't you mean your answer is defensible--and perhaps even compelling--under natural law (assuming for the sake of argument that such a thing as "natural law" exists) despite the fact that it contradicts the directly applicable rules (including the requirement of 803.00 that players play the course as they find it and the disc where it lies unless allowed otherwise by the Rules)? :eek:


The course deigner never intended that the retrieval tool should be an obstacle.

Why should a course designer or TD's intention, or the purpose of an object for that matter, have any bearing on whether or not an object is or is not an obstacle?

For the 2002 Big Valley Challenge, the TD ran surveyor's string along the shortcuts to various holes to help players unfamiliar with the course find their starting holes more easily. On one hole, the string was strung slightly below waist level to make it easier to see and follow. As fate would have it, during the second round, a player's (Ben Budd) disc to rest about 50' from the basket in a position that resulted in the raised string being between his lie and the hole and close enough for the string to interfere with his arm extension on his putt. (Ben uses a pitch putt.) Are you suggesting that he was entitled to move the string before attempting to putt because the TD didn't intend for it to be an obstacle?


The rationale for treating it like an obstacle does not exist.

You mean, other than the fact that, in the scenario presented, it is, by virtue of its location and orientation, a de facto obstacle to the player's throwing motion and/or the intended flight path?

Given the fundamental premise that players play the course as they find it and the disc where it lies unless allowed otherwise by the Rules, in the absence of a rule or a special condition governing an object or particular class of objects, the simple fact that the object was there when prior to the thrown disc coming to rest beside it makes it a part of the course as it is found; the fact the object does obstruct one's run up, stance, throwing motion, or flight path makes it an obstacle, regardless of whether or not the course designer or TD intended it to be one. To paraphrase the RC's ruling on obstacles to stance and flight path in the Rules Q&A, a player needs to avoid throwing next to such obstacles if he doesn't want to have to negotiate them!

The marshal's job should be to be fair and consistent, with the rules being their first point of reference, the Q&A next and the "reasonable person" third.

"Fair and consistent" to whom: to the player who asks for a ruling or to other players who might have been affected by the stick but didn't ask for relief?

The principle of "fairness and consistency" would seem to dictate that everyone facing the scenario play it the same way, i.e. either everyone gets relief or no one gets relief. Short of either a special condition governing the retrieval sticks being announced prior to the start of the tournament or the ability of the marshall to be present continuously on all holes on which the retrival sticks are present, the marshall has no way of knowing whether or not other players were also affected by the position of the stick but didn't ask for a ruling, so granting relief to an appellant would give him/her an advantage over those who play the situation strictly "by the book."

Should players be allowed to use an OB or 2m retrieval stick or not? Essentially, a marked stick is an "unintentional" penalty trap with the current rules. According to the rules, using the stick is not allowed if it's currently in front of a player's lie. Perhaps if it's behind another player's lie in the group, they will be willing to pick it up and give it to you. I doubt that anyone including a marshal watching the process would prevent a player from using either an official or unofficial stick to retrieve their disc despite the wording of the rules.

The marshal moving the stick in this example would be no different from another player moving it later in the round. Should some players be prevented from moving it and others get to move it because some groups saw it being moved and were then allowed to move it if needed? In fact, is it a requirement that there's a reasonable expectation your disc is OB before using it or how about if I just need it to scratch an itch? I realize there's a slippery slope here and it sounds like the RC probably needs to write another Q&A item.

As Bruce points out, there's no problem moving an item defined as a movable obstruction in ball golf such as a rake near sand traps for example.

Should players be allowed to use an OB or 2m retrieval stick or not? Essentially, a marked stick is an "unintentional" penalty trap with the current rules. According to the rules, using the stick is not allowed if it's currently in front of a player's lie. Perhaps if it's behind another player's lie in the group, they will be willing to pick it up and give it to you.

The marshal moving the stick in this example would be no different from another player moving it later in the round. Should some players be prevented from moving it and others get to move it because some groups saw it being moved and were then allowed to move it if needed? In fact, is it a requirement that there's a reasonable expectation your disc is OB before using it or how about if I just need it to scratch an itch?

This is the kind of nonsense that arises when one does not pay particular attention to the wording of a rule and the circumstances governed by them.

The rule does NOT prevent moving or using an object that is in front of the player's lie: it only prohibits moving an obstacle that is [/b]between the lie and the hole.[/b] If the position and the orientation of the object is such that it lies wholly or partially between the lie and the hole and impedes a player's run up, stance, throwing motion, or flight path of the thrown disc, it is an obstacle and, consequently, may not be moved; if it is not between the lie and the hole and/or doesn't impede the run up, stance, throwing motion, or flight path of the thrown disc, it's not a obstacle and may, consequently, be moved. What constitutes "between the lie and the hole" is readily determined using the "reasonable person" doctrine.

Furthermore, the Rules neither require nor expect that a player retrieve a thrown disc from OB or suspended above 2m prior to making his/her subsequent throw from the proper lie. Once the player has thrown from the lie, the issue of whether or not one is permitted to move the stick is dissolved, save for the circumstance that the player is either required by rule or elects to rethrow from the previous lie.


As Bruce points out, there's no problem moving an item defined as a movable obstruction in ball golf such as a rake near sand traps for example.

Much as I hate to belabor the obvious, the rules of disc golf currently contain no such provision so what ball golf permits or prohibits is of no relevance in interpreting and applying the rules of disc golf. Until such time as the rules are amended to include such a provision, the RC issues a ruling permitting the movement of a de facto obstruction, the TD has the option of setting a special condition permitting the unlimited right to move such objects--note that precisely that sort of special condition was established on holes 9, 10, 11, 15, and 17 at the 2003 Buckhorn Meltdown, where retrieval sticks were placed beside the greens of holes bordering on OB water--it is the obligation of players to adhere to the rules as written.

Of course the more elegant solution is to eliminate the 3 2 meter paragraphs from our rules so such coure eye sores as 2m sticks are no longer an issue at all... /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

In general, disc golf is way to loose with moving stuff during competitive rounds, it is almost as if our courses are expected to be unplayable as they are. Like we expect there to be significant casual obstacles!

Sure, folks say, "In the rare instance of there being significant casual obstacles to run up, stance, footing, throwing motion or flight path we should be able to move them for safety."

But is it not equally valid to say "In the rare instance of there being significant casual obstacles to run up, stance, footing, throwing motion or flight path, that because it is so rare, the player should have to deal with it by having no run up, a difficult stance, bad footing, an encumbered throwing motion or a different flight path than the preferred one? Afterall, didn't they throw their disc into that situation? Why do we provide a free get out of jail card to them? Did they do something to deserve good footing or an unencumbered throwing motion by throwing deep into the shuel?

Now if you want to add a stipulation about being able to move such things within 10 meters of the target, or even on the fairway, great! By all means, but one of those means would necessitate an absolute and indisputable boundary such as posts or a clear line. This could be handled under "Special Conditions". But IMO, the default should always error on the side of caution in altering a course and it's obstacles (just as our current rules do already).

How about you just throw from your marked lie with another disc, and then use the stick afterwards? Seems painfully obvious to me.

...if it (obstacle) is not between the lie and the hole and/or doesn't impede the run up, stance, throwing motion, or flight path of the thrown disc, it's not a obstacle and may, consequently, be moved.



Wrong. The rule does not explicitly say Line of Play which is a defined Glossary term. Otherwise, I'd be able to move a downed branch that was to the left of the LOP where my BH roller would likely land/roll. Or a player would be able to take a dangling unattached limb off a branch that was on the hyzer route she intended to throw. I'd say it's pretty clear you can't move any item that's within the two parallel lines thru the lie and target that are perpendicular to the LOP.

How about you just throw from your marked lie with another disc, and then use the stick afterwards? Seems painfully obvious to me.




That only works for the player who throws OB and needs the stick. The question was whether players can move the stick out of their way before they throw who don't need to use it. How about the player who needs the stick, throws their shot, uses the stick and accidentally places it in the flight line of another player. Can that player who just placed it there move it again now that they've let go?

But is it not equally valid to say "In the rare instance of there being significant casual obstacles to run up, stance, footing, throwing motion or flight path, that because it is so rare, the player should have to deal with it by having no run up, a difficult stance, bad footing, an encumbered throwing motion or a different flight path than the preferred one? Afterall, didn't they throw their disc into that situation? Why do we provide a free get out of jail card to them? Did they do something to deserve good footing or an unencumbered throwing motion by throwing deep into the shuel?

ah... a brilliant and empassioned defense of the 2MR! at last you are seeing the light, you mispelled color!

I think if a stick on the ground in your line of play is that much of an issue for you, there are probably parts of your game that need a lot more work than your understanding of the rules. Either way, if someone put something in front of me before I threw and refused to let me move it (citing the rules), I would plant a tree in front of them before the next time they threw.

In the case of someone else placing the stick between the player and the target, the lone exception to 803.04.B comes in to play.


B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A player may not move, alter, bend, break, or hold back any part of any obstacle between the lie and the hole, with one exception. A player may move obstacles between the lie and the hole that became a factor during the round, such as spectators, players' equipment, open gates, or branches that fell during the round.



The stick can be moved if it is clear that it bacame a factor during the round.

The stick can be moved if it is clear that it bacame a factor during the round.



Yep. What if a player remembers seeing the stick in another position during practice before the round? Should that be sufficient "proof" that the stick has moved during the round (benefit of the doubt to the player)?

It would be for me, but that's for course equipment that appears intended to be used and moved by any player that has a need. It would be different for an obstruction that may have been placed there by nature, or one placed by the course designer without the obvious intent that it be moved during the natural course of play.

Something like a ladder on the side of a particularly steep bank would be an obstacle placed by the designer or TD where the intent of movement would not be obvious.

...if it (obstacle) is not between the lie and the hole and/or doesn't impede the run up, stance, throwing motion, or flight path of the thrown disc, it's not a obstacle and may, consequently, be moved.



Wrong. The rule does not explicitly say Line of Play which is a defined Glossary term. Otherwise, I'd be able to move a downed branch that was to the left of the LOP where my BH roller would likely land/roll. Or a player would be able to take a dangling unattached limb off a branch that was on the hyzer route she intended to throw. I'd say it's pretty clear you can't move any item that's within the two parallel lines thru the lie and target that are perpendicular to the LOP.

You are correct regarding the particular observation that 803.04 does not specify the line of play, but�quite apart from the fact nowhere do I mention "line of play"�you are simply wrong because you haven't paid attention to the particular wording of 803.04 and its attendent circumstances.

Rule 803.04 specifically specifies that OBSTACLES between the lie and the hole may not be moved; it says nothing regarding objects that are not obstacles. Since the Glossary defines an "obstacle" as
Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play,



it necessarily follows that an object on course that does not impede any aspect of play is, by definition, not an obstacle and may therefore be moved, irrespective of its position.

Whether or not any particular object may or may not impede any aspect of play may be debated, but it is clear that 803.04 prohibits ONLY those objects between the lie and the hole that are obstacles.

How about you just throw from your marked lie with another disc, and then use the stick afterwards? Seems painfully obvious to me.




That only works for the player who throws OB and needs the stick. The question was whether players can move the stick out of their way before they throw who don't need to use it. How about the player who needs the stick, throws their shot, uses the stick and accidentally places it in the flight line of another player. Can that player who just placed it there move it again now that they've let go?

Rule 803.04.B specifically permits moving obstacles that became a factor during the round. If a player places the stick in the flight line of another player, either accidentally or deliberately, the stick is an obstacle that has become a factor during the round and consequently may be moved by ANY player, [i]provided that the player is able to establish conclusively that the stick was moved to its present, obstructing position during the round.

If an object doesnt impede your play in any way, shape or form, then why do you want to move it? Once again this seems like a non-issue to me.

An item is either an obstacle or not. It's position on the course at any point in time does not change its definition. In other words, a stick has been considered an obstacle so I believe it's status is always an obstacle. Whether it can be moved or not relates to the specific rule options at the time.

I was told , if it was there before you have thrown , it's part of the course. Play through or around it , even if it is temporary.

Goes for humans to , that totally refuse to move !!!!!!! /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

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Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play,
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that should make it clear enough.

a disc retrieval stick is not a "feature of the course". it might represent remarkable foresight on the part of the TD, be a nice thing to have, provide a clear benefit to a player, but it is NOT a feature of the course. therefore a player can move it anytime they wish.

now, if the designer had built a stand for it and labelled said stand something like "return retrieval stick here immediately after use" it might be different.

If an object doesnt impede your play in any way, shape or form, then why do you want to move it? Once again this seems like a non-issue to me.



<font color="purple"> PRECISELY! </font>

That debris absolutely is an obstacle and factor in stance and footing.

This is about bridges and ob so here is my question. This came up.

If the disc comes to rest on a bridge directly above water which is OB, does it count as OB?????

This is about bridges and ob so here is my question. This came up.

If the disc comes to rest on a bridge directly above water which is OB, does it count as OB?????

Depends on what the TD said in the players meeting. There is a Q&A on this scenario on the rules page. If the bridge is a playing surface, you can mark it on the bridge and play it there.

This is about bridges and ob so here is my question. This came up.

If the disc comes to rest on a bridge directly above water which is OB, does it count as OB?????

Depends on what the TD said in the players meeting. There is a Q&A on this scenario on the rules page. If the bridge is a playing surface, you can mark it on the bridge and play it there.



Precisely. :o

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Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play,
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that should make it clear enough.

a disc retrieval stick is not a "feature of the course".

Correct in general, but incorrect in the particular scenario under discussion.

803.04.A specifies that no relief is granted for park equipment because it is considered part of the course.

In the presenting scenario, it is specifically stated that the retrieval sticks are
an official part of course equipment.

That makes the sticks every bit as much a part of the course as baskets, teepads, benches, trash cans, picnic tables, permanent or temporary signs, etc., and therefore subject to the same prohibitions that pertain to those objects unless the TD declares the not to be course equipment or establishes a special condition granting relief.

An item is either an obstacle or not. It's position on the course at any point in time does not change its definition. In other words, a stick has been considered an obstacle so I believe it's status is always an obstacle. Whether it can be moved or not relates to the specific rule options at the time.

If an object's status as obstacle or non-obstacle does not change irrespective of its position on the course, then it necessarily follows that the stick in question in this scenario cannot be moved under any circumstance�save for it having become a factor during the round�if it is between the lie and the hole. That, however, is contrary to what you have argued to this point.

The glossary definition of an "obstacle" does no more than establish that, in principle, any and every object on a course is potentially an obstacle; it does not specifically define every object or any particular object on the course to be, in fact, an obstacle. The status of any particular object, whether or not it be, in fact, an obstacle, can only be determined in the particular context and circumstances of a particular throw: if, on any particular throw, an object's position is such that it may [NB: "may" not "will" or "does"] impede an aspect of play, it is an obstacle; if its position is such that it will not [NB: "will not," not "cannot"; the distinction is crucial] impede an aspect of play, the object becomes irrelevant for the purposes of enforcing Rule 803.04 for that particular throw.

An item is either an obstacle or not. It's position on the course at any point in time does not change its definition. In other words, a stick has been considered an obstacle so I believe it's status is always an obstacle. Whether it can be moved or not relates to the specific rule options at the time.

If an object's status as obstacle or non-obstacle does not change irrespective of its position on the course, then it necessarily follows that the stick in question in this scenario cannot be moved under any circumstance�save for it having become a factor during the round�if it is between the lie and the hole. That, however, is contrary to what you have argued to this point.

The glossary definition of an "obstacle" does no more than establish that, in principle, any and every object on a course is potentially an obstacle; it does not specifically define every object or any particular object on the course to be, in fact, an obstacle. The status of any particular object, whether or not it be, in fact, an obstacle, can only be determined in the particular context and circumstances of a particular throw: if, on any particular throw, an object's position is such that it may [NB: "may" not "will" or "does"] impede an aspect of play, it is an obstacle; if its position is such that it will not [NB: "will not," not "cannot"; the distinction is crucial] impede an aspect of play, the object becomes irrelevant for the purposes of enforcing Rule 803.04 for that particular throw.



I have a hard time imagining a situation where an object may NOT impede play... What if your aim is terrible and you manage to throw it straight into the ground? Or completely sideways? Or even behind you? Unless something is impeding your run-up or throwing motion and is behind your lie, I dont see any scenario where you should be able to move an object. If you didnt want to throw around an object you shouldnt have thrown near it in the first place.

An item is either an obstacle or not. It's position on the course at any point in time does not change its definition. In other words, a stick has been considered an obstacle so I believe it's status is always an obstacle. Whether it can be moved or not relates to the specific rule options at the time.

If an object's status as obstacle or non-obstacle does not change irrespective of its position on the course, then it necessarily follows that the stick in question in this scenario cannot be moved under any circumstance�save for it having become a factor during the round�if it is between the lie and the hole. That, however, is contrary to what you have argued to this point.

The glossary definition of an "obstacle" does no more than establish that, in principle, any and every object on a course is potentially an obstacle; it does not specifically define every object or any particular object on the course to be, in fact, an obstacle. The status of any particular object, whether or not it be, in fact, an obstacle, can only be determined in the particular context and circumstances of a particular throw: if, on any particular throw, an object's position is such that it may [NB: "may" not "will" or "does"] impede an aspect of play, it is an obstacle; if its position is such that it will not [NB: "will not," not "cannot"; the distinction is crucial] impede an aspect of play, the object becomes irrelevant for the purposes of enforcing Rule 803.04 for that particular throw.



How about for the next guy playing through on that hole? Now that you have moved it, they, under our rules should be permitted to move it again, right?

The best option is the simplest. DO NOT MOVE OBJECTS OR OBSTACLES AT ALL. Take relief where provided and do the best you can with it. If it means bad footing, oh well. If it means having a stick right in your throwing motion, oh well. If it means having a branch in your flight path, again, oh well. Don't throw into those situations if you'd prefer to avoid them.

If you are a TD running an event on a high maintanence course, then get out there and clean it up. If you are unable then at least take the time to provide "Special Conditions" relief from know trouble spots and areas you did not or could not get to. Either way, players during competition should not be purposefully shifting around obstacles and changing the course.