Click on the 'PDGA Tour' link up above and look at the PDGA Event Schedule. There are an alarming number of recent tournaments who have not used the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System to submit results. Why not? The system is incredibly easy to use. You just copy and paste the scores from a spreadsheet - all you need is name, PDGA number, and round scores. What's especially poor is that many C-tier tournaments have already submitted results while two recent A-tier events have not.

You can also use the system to submit the current registration for upcoming tournaments for everyone to view. Notice that very few upcoming tournaments have their pre-registration lists posted.

I know that Tournament Directors have a lot on their dockets these days but the PDGA has set up a system where results can be posted very easily and in a timely fashion, and it's lame that the system isn't being utilized.

I think the pre-registration thing works only if you are using one particular means of doing pre-registration. We have never received the passcode in time to upload our own pre-registration.

We usually upload scores on the same day or within a couple of days. We have a lot of volunteers helping at our events so when it is all done we don't have to go out and get drunk for a week just to recover! :D

I think the pre-registration thing works only if you are using one particular means of doing pre-registration. We have never received the passcode in time to upload our own pre-registration.


How early do you send in your sanctioning agreements?

You can also quickly check PDGA status and ratings for lower am divisions with this tool. You can't check that stuff for walk-up registration, though, so you have another way to do it also.

I think the pre-registration thing works only if you are using one particular means of doing pre-registration. We have never received the passcode in time to upload our own pre-registration.


How early do you send in your sanctioning agreements?

You can also quickly check PDGA status and ratings for lower am divisions with this tool. You can't check that stuff for walk-up registration, though, so you have another way to do it also.

This year they all went in at the same time, more or less, 2 to 6 months in advance.

This year they all went in at the same time, more or less, 2 to 6 months in advance.


Now that I think about it, I guess I do have to send an email to get mine early, when I start getting entry forms.

This year they all went in at the same time, more or less, 2 to 6 months in advance.



You should be receiving your POTSS password from Dave Gentry several weeks before each tournament. Something is curious if you are not.

Jon gets that stuff now. I was under the impression that we were getting it a couple of days before the tournament. If Jon has access to post pre-reg on pdga.com he probably does not see the point since our players mostly know to look on discontinuum.org and brasscash.com for tournament information. We can make this a between season [I'm a potty-mouth!]-and-moan topic for the tournament crew when everyone sobers up! :D

Anyway, from what you are saying I'm assuming that you don't have to use the PDGA's on-line registration system to get your pre-reg names on-line. Is this correct? Can we up load our pre-reg ourselves? And, having done so are the names and PDGA numbers then already in the system when it is time to upload scores?

I quit TDing events this year so I'm not really up to speed on this stuff. I do some of the MC work and front the merch and trophy costs, but Jon is the TD now.

Anyway, from what you are saying I'm assuming that you don't have to use the PDGA's on-line registration system to get your pre-reg names on-line. Is this correct? Can we up load our pre-reg ourselves? And, having done so are the names and PDGA numbers then already in the system when it is time to upload scores?



Full instructions on how to use the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System are here:

PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/admin/help.php)

It couldn't be easier. You just use Excel or some other spreadsheet program to list names, PDGA numbers and divisions, and you then upload them into the system, which already has stored data on each member's PDGA Rating, City, State, Country and Active Status. It's a great way for people to see who are pre-registered for a tournament.

After the tourny (or after each round) you would add column(s) in your spreadsheet with the scores, and then upload them. It's so easy.

And yet virtually no one is utilizing it. There were two A-tier PDGA events in my region over the last two weekends, and I have no idea who cashed. And I won't know until the TD mails in the full report and the PDGA processes it. That's lame.

sarcasm ahead...

Jeff, you know that some TD's went kicking and screaming to the Excel version of the report sheets, right? Why would they want to keep learning new technology? It's only frisbee golf. :D

Well, we are doing the after-event on-line scoring every time, and often getting it done before the players get home from the course. Usually the week before the event we are busy with other things and not too concerned about publishing our pre-reg in a third location.

Maybe there's a way the PDGA can use incentive to get TD's to use the online system. Appartently getting seen as "Yeah, that guy's bad-*****, he got the scores up quick!" isn't enough. Maybe the PDGA could charge the TD an extra $1 per player if the scores are not uploaded via the online tool. That would quickly make them listen.

I had the same idea with Wal-Mart's parking lot. I can't tell you how many people leave the shopping cart in the empty parking spot next to their car instead of taking it to the cart return spot. Some people even go farther out of their way to put it on a median or something when there was a cart return spot nearby too. I would suggest Wal-Mart to require a deposit of $.25 or something to "rent" a cart. When you take it back to the cart return, you get your quarter back. This would help them in two ways...first, their parking lot would look half as trashy, and second, they'd make at least a million dollars off of lazy people who don't return the cart. Then, they could sponsor the PDGA with that million, and the sport would definitely gain popularity.

I've come to the conclusion that people are born lazy, and they either find their motivation or they don't.

TDs have to submit the Excel report anyway so they might as well get the names on it as soon as they can. That's the easy way to set up your upload.

TDs have to submit the Excel report anyway so they might as well get the names on it as soon as they can. That's the easy way to set up your upload.



Exactly! All you have to do is copy and paste from that Excel report. It takes only seconds to do!

Exactly! All you have to do is copy and paste from that Excel report. It takes only seconds to do!



Jeff, please refer to post #444974 in this thread where you mentioned this already. :eek: :D

:o

At Aldi the carts lock together. To get a cart you unlock it by putting a quarter in the lock. To get your quarter back you have to return the cart to the corral and lock it back up. It is a clever system. In the winter a lot of people calculate the value of the walk back to the corral versus the value of getting out of the cold and into the car right now, and Kelsey makes pocket change off their valuations. :)

Because TDs are as stupid as anyone, instead of using a penalty system like you propose the PDGA ought to use a bonus system. Double the sanctioning fee at every level and then return up to half of it for meeting simple objectively defined goals like turning in a TD report by a specified date, paying the PDGA player fees by a specified date, turning in a TD report that is sufficiently complete that no follow up work is needed before processing it for ratings, etc. Incentives work better than penalties, even when it is just the same thing talked about in different terms. As a TD you are much better off giving an early registration $5 discount than charging a late registration $5 penalty even though it is exactly the same thing. Players are just as stupid that way as TDs!

The incentive of $25 worked when we were encouraging them to use the Excel TD report rather than a paper report. Now, zero paper reports submitted.

Many many many TDs still do their tournaments the exact same way they always have: on little scraps of paper strewn about with a DGEI Level 1 process. :)

The wonderful electronic TD report with it's awesomely helpful built-in payout calculator does not ever come into play for these guys before or during the event. They do it the way they have always done it, and they are comfortable doing that way and it works for them.

After the event is over, they gather up the scaps of paper and go home. Eventually they will dig through the scraps and enter the scores into a spreadsheet. For some, eventually is that night. For others, it is six months later. For most, it is somewhere in between.

I don't agree that the "scraps o' paper" method is the best method, but that doesn't matter. The question was: why don't TDs use the On Line Scoring System? It's because many TDs don't "get electronic" until long after the event is over.

Would the players care if the TDs were to advertise that they would use the online reporting system and have scores posted on the PDGA Tour page within 24 hours of the end of the event ?

Online and Immediate scoring is awesome and the way to go !!!!!

Each tournament , should have this ability. Online scoring can be done from any location and has been met with favorable response.

I don't think that would at all hurt. It'd be nice if there was some type of electronic scorecard on the market that TD's could distribute to the players (like one of those coaster-beepers or something) that players entered the scores into, and when they turn them in, the TD presses a button and the scores are automatically sent into the computer's scoring program. Not only would that cut down on time, mistakes, and manpower, it would open the door for an incredible amount of statistics that would possibly even allow for more accurate course and player ratings, and help define/fix "dumb" holes.

I'm sure something like that would be possible with a cell phone that supports Java apps...you'd enter in scores into a cell phone after every hole that is then sent to HQ, as well as a server somewhere. Man, talk about live scoring!

Whether or not the TD says he will post pre-reg and get results posted within 24 hours really would not influence my decision to play a particular tourney or not one bit.

Yes it is tr�s cool.

But how smooth past events have run, whether they over-sell the event or stick to reasonable player limits, how much I like the course, how much blatant pot smoking goes on at that event, and other things are what I base my tournament dollar decisions on.

They do have this ability. The PDGA provides a PDA for NT and Major events. But anyone with web access on their PDA or laptop can post scores either after a round or do live coverage for a group. They just need the event password supplied to the TD to access the posting area.

Likely the most truthful answer is that they just don't give a dam. Though this online community might make up 100% of some folks disc golf experience, it does not even register on the majority of disc golfer, and certainly disc golf event managers, experience.

At this point, without ESPN or ABC Sports knocking down our doors for results, it is more or less a nicety than something that will make or break their event or whether folks that attend events will attend their events.

Would it be nice? Definitely! I for one would like it. But where is the urgency coming from?

And more importantly have any of you directly contacted any of the TDs in question? You did attend their events afterall, right?

I think I have contacted almost all of the TDs at the events I attended with offers of assistance with the online scoring. :cool:

In all honesty is prolly because 99 percent of TDs dont even OWN a freakin computer much less know how to use one. Maybe if the PDGA sent a laptop out to all the higher Tiered events so that the TD or someone at the tournament could upload the scores at lunch and then after the tournament. That might help out a ton. They should for sure send a laptop to do live scoring to all the majors NTs and SuperTour with the PDGA Marshall that they send to all those events.

Just an Idea

But where is the urgency coming from?

And more importantly have any of you directly contacted any of the TDs in question? You did attend their events afterall, right?



You'd be surprised - I think a majority of disc golfers DO go online after the event and look for scores but they're not posted. It happens each and every week, they post "Where are the scores?" Days and weeks later the scores are still not posted online.

Even without ESPN or ABC Sports, tournament disc golf is the lifeblood of our essence. The PDGA has created an incredibly useful and simple tool to report scores. Why aren't TDs using it?

Per the post earlier in the thread, they do send wireless PDAs to the NTs and selected A-Tiers to get scores posted. That may not be as useful as a laptop, but it will get the job done.

In all honesty is prolly because 99 percent of TDs dont even OWN a freakin computer much less know how to use one.


Shut up.

Most TDs do it the way they do it, and it's worked just fine for them for years. That's the bottom line: comfort-zone. They know that their way works for them because it has more-or-less worked just fine for them for years.

I think I may have struck a nerve. How hard can it be to input scores on a spead sheet and send them into the PDGA???

Hell if the tournaments I play want me to bring my laptop and do it for them at lunch and after the round Id be willing to do that if it meant my freakin stats would contain all the tournaments that I played in :D

I think I may have struck a nerve.


yeah, it's the "frickin' retards that have never done anything to help an event but b!tch about every single one of the 47 tourneys they played in this year" nerve.

I'm not talking about a laptop with live scoring for PDGA events. I'm talking about simply entering the names into a spreadsheet to create a registration list before the tourny, then uploading the scores after the tournament has completed. (within a day or two) There's no way that 99% of TDs don't own a computer. Any member of the tournament staff can create a spreadsheet and upload this information. Entering the scores may take a few minutes, but the upload process takes seconds. And the scores can later be posted into the official PDGA report.

yeah, it's the "frickin' retards that have never done anything to help an event but b!tch about every single one of the 47 tourneys they played in this year" nerve.



Well then you need to shut your mouth because I have done things to help the local tournies that I have played in this year. So dont ***_UME because it just make you look like an ***___.

Get off your high horse and come back down to earth.

I have never seen the need to upload the pre-reg since we list it on our website. If people start asking for it, I'll probably start doing it. I think uploading of scores using the online tool will become more and more used as more people learn how to do it. We've been using it since last year and I think it is fun. At IOS #5 on Sunday I was able to get all the scores uploaded 5 minutes after the Pro Final Four Safari which was about 5 minutes before awards. I was able to announce unofficial hot round ratings and people really liked it. For all 6 IOS events this year I've gotten results up within 3 days and some of them I did same day. We have had rain at almost everyone of our events this year so I didn't always want to get out my laptop and enter scores at the course. One day I entered them at the pizza place down the street from the course while we had dinner and then uploaded them from the van on the ride home (Becky drove!).

In all honesty is prolly because 99 percent of TDs dont even OWN a freakin computer much less know how to use one. Maybe if the PDGA sent a laptop out to all the higher Tiered events so that the TD or someone at the tournament could upload the scores at lunch and then after the tournament. That might help out a ton. They should for sure send a laptop to do live scoring to all the majors NTs and SuperTour with the PDGA Marshall that they send to all those events.

Just an Idea



The PDGA sends out a Pocket PC to the events with the request that the TD send it on the the next Major/NT. When TD's don't care to follow through with that, the Marshal at the next event has to figure out some other way to get the scores posted after each round.

Witness this past weekend. The organizers of the US Amateur Disc Golf Championship didn't bother to send the equipment to LA for the US Masters Championship. The La Mirada course had poor internet access, so we had to input the scores to a laptop, copy to a USB drive and send that with a player that had internet access at his hotel. The scored got posted, though not live, as we'd like to have done. If we'd had the Pocket PC, it would have been a cell phone call and boom, the scores are online.

The system is pretty well in place, whether it's online scoring reports, live scoring, whatever. The people in the field have to care enough to follow through to make it happen.

I helped out a C-tier tourney I played in about a month ago. I wanted to help them with the soft-copy tournament reporting, and realized that the online scoring could be easily done since it and the excel report went hand-in-hand. Most of these guys dont know very much about computers, technology and the like. I offered my services in as uncondescending and tactful a way as possible, and they agreed. The report and scoring went through with no problems.

This tourney was in a city 4 hours away from where I live. I am not apart of that local club, and I have never even run a tournament on my own. My point is you dont have to be the TD to do any of this online reporting. Anyone with the willingness and a little bit of excel knowledge can help out. Look at the report, call Dave Gentry...he would be happy to talk to anyone and answer any questions...then take the plunge!!

I dont know if Gary offered this club help in the past, but if anyone out there is frustrated with thier local TD's in regards to the tourney on-line reporting...offer to help. Maybe they dont have a computer, or dont understand or are afraid to try....or a bit of all three. Dont just [I'm a potty-mouth!] about how this TD or that TD sucks because they're 'lazy' or 'stupid'. Offer to help. And be nice about it :D

As the months go by, more and more on-line reporting will happen. Step up and be one of those that help progress on-line scoring and reporting.

Would the players care if the TDs were to advertise that they would use the online reporting system and have scores posted on the PDGA Tour page within 24 hours of the end of the event ?

i would! in fact there are a couple events i avoid to due traditionally long times to report results. screw 'em.. there's lost of good events where the td does it right.

I helped with the Kentucky States last year by doing the electronic TD Report and was impressed by how user friendly it is.

Anyone attending Idlewild this year for the KY States (Doubles event Saturday Oct. 8; Singles event Sunday Oct. 9) should expect the scores to go up each night and the report to be submitted by Monday October 10th.

KY States at Idlewild (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=437051&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=1&fpart=1)

Anyone have a blank copy of the Excel report that TD's use? I'm interested in seeing what it's like. My email is [email protected] if anyone has a copy.

Thanks!

http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TDReportElectronicV5-3-1.xls

I highly recommend using this electronic TD report to manage your event. You can input the names of competitors as they register for your event as well as track all of your income and expenses. The players names and scores can easily be cut and pasted from this spreadsheet into the online tournament results page for your event at PDGA.com. The spreadsheet will calculate your payout for you, balance your tournament books and the best thing is that immediately following your event, the required PDGA paperwork is already completed and ready to be mailed in.

Here's what has worked for me as a long-time TD:

Find a volunteer that is a computer geek and provide him/her with incentive to handle any computer-related tourney functions.

I am not personally particularly interested in attempting to learn new software or hardware technology. I know just enough of the basics to get by and classify me as somewhat computer-literate. But anything more skilled than that requires more interest and time than I have.

So over the years I recruited computer "geeks" like Jason
Haas, Nick Kight, Jeff Lung Lagrassa, Jim Santoro, Dan Howard, etc to assist me with this function.

It allows us to be technologically efficient but relieves me of the hassle of having to personally handle the details....

Dan Doyle
Warwick, NY

Dan,

As a long-time TD, I respect your opinion. But I do want to dispel one theory: that it takes a "computer geek" to utilize the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System. That could not be further from the truth. If you can read e-mail, post messages on the PDGA Discussion board, and fill out the electronic report for the PDGA after your tournament, you certainly have enough skills to utilize the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System. All I'm asking is that TDs copy and paste the scores and upload them after a tournament so that people aren't waiting weeks and months to see tourny results.

I can certainly understand that running events puts a strain on worktime, may not be enthusiastically embraced by family, and cuts into leisure time, but this is one request that virtually any TD can handle technically, and requires almost no additional time committment.

There's even a help page on the PDGA site that explains everything in full detail:

PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System Help (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/admin/help.php)

Yeah, it may be easy to do and anyone can do it, but sometimes "geeks" are more willing to do computer stuff. They also are able to do it a little bit faster regardless of how simple it is.

The PDGA should mandate all sactioned events be uploaded within 24-48 hours of ending. Im sure the home office would appreciate the efforts!

Whether TDs choose to do it themselves, or make sure they have "geeks" signed up to handle it, it is handled. That is the important thing. All TDs should make an effort to see to it that the web side of the event is covered.

Please listen to yourselves: what some of you are saying is that if a TD can't get the results uploaded to the web with 24-48 hours after completion of the tournament, then you don't want that tournament to be PDGA sanctioned.

Is this really what you want? Is it really that big of a deal?

I don't think it is.

It's very nice to have results posted that quickly. It really is pretty easy for me to get it done by Sunday night when I am running or helping at an event. But it isn't life-or-death. If a tourney fails to get results posted within 2 weeks, I don't want that tourney to go away because "they are lame".

The TD Report is very user-friendly and TDs have to fill it out eventually, so yes it makes sense for everyone to utilize it. But everyone doesn't. And they still run great events for us to play in. This really isn't a big deal.

Why be a PDGA member and play PDGA tournament if the TDs arent going to do their job and turn in the reports so that my stats get tracked and my rounds get rated???

I mean thats what we pay are dues for right???

Why be a PDGA member and play PDGA tournament if the TDs arent going to do their job and turn in the reports so that my stats get tracked and my rounds get rated???

I mean thats what we pay are dues for right???


So now if a tourney's results aren't posted within 24 hours of the last putt your rounds aren't getting tracked???

Please.

If a TD fails to turn in results or fees in a timely manner, then that TD shouldn't get to run any more PDGA events. The current 30 day requirement is plenty timely enough, IMHO.

Im sure if you were on the receiving end of unposted events your story might be different.

You apparently are one of the few that dont have issue with getting the results in. I wish all TD's would adopt the same attitude in getting their jobs done in a timely fashion. I can sit here and list a few TD's that take their time in getting them done. Matter of fact Im sure there are TD's out there that will sit on this board and post-***** while the tourney information is just 'snail-mailed' to the PDGA.

Now your gonna say; if you dont like it, volunteer and help out. Matter of fact, I did. But you know how it is running a club, a lot of political red tape.

So now if a tourney's results aren't posted within 24 hours of the last putt your rounds aren't getting tracked???

Please.

If a TD fails to turn in results or fees in a timely manner, then that TD shouldn't get to run any more PDGA events. The current 30 day requirement is plenty timely enough, IMHO.



If I spent my time and ran an event I would put them up the night the tournament ended and if it was a 2 day event scores would be posted each night (barring any unforseen family issues or anything of the sort). Im not saying I expect that from all TDs. Im just saying that is what I would do if I TDed an event (and dont give me the THEN TD ONE thing because at this point in time I choose not to). I just expect them to be up in the next week. Thats 7 days. Thats alot of time to plug some numbers into a computer and send in the results. I think 30 days is REDICULOUS!!! I could even handle 2 weeks but when I play an event and the rating update is 30 days away and the cut off for it is 2 weeks and my event doesnt get rated because the TD was lazy and didnt get the results in that rediculous. I pay my dues so that my stats are tracked and my rounds are rated. I want ALL my tournaments and ALL my ratings to be in there. Thats why I pay.

How long does it really take to input scores online and send them to the PDGA???

Here's the bottom line question: is 30 days a reasonable or an unreasonable amount of time to get the results submitted?

If a TD fails to get results submitted in that amount of time, there are supposed to be repurcussions. In the past there never have been any. That is supposed to be changing. If you agree that 30 days is reasonable and nothing is happening to TDs who take more that 30 days, then that is an issue that needs addressing.

Pimp,

Think about it, would ya? If an TD takes more than two weeks to submit her/his results, you are saying that you would prefer that TD not even bother to run the tournament that you enjoyed playing??? You would rather NOT play than have to wait more than 2 weeks for the results to get turned in???

Well, that's you. I prefer to play tournaments and think that 30 days is fine.

I am a tourney director and I would like to chime in here .
I have always disliked computers from the moment I took " Concepts in Computer Math " in highschool .
I can write something out faster then I can type it and writing it does not require new software updates ( although some anti wrinkle cream on my hands from time to time does not hurt ) .

HOWEVER , being serious I have to agree with Jeff here that it takes VERY little understanding time and knowhow to use software on a puter . My only complaint was when the PDGA made us use Excel it cost me $320 to purchase the program .
Yea I know I could get it illegially but that is not my gig .
I feel if the PDGA wants something done that is that expensive ( since I dont make any money from running tourneys ) , It should have some sort of ability to reduce or eliminate the cost to TDs .

As far as a timely manner , I am going to tell you that once the tourney is over I like to take some time AWAY from anything that has to do with disc golf for at least 2 days .
I will never submit results faster then one week after tourney .
I go thru all the scorecards and arrange them so when I type in results it is easier . ( OH by the way I refuse to buy a laptop at this point , there is another expence I do not need ) .

If a TD fails to get results submitted in that amount of time, there are supposed to be repurcussions. In the past there never have been any. That is supposed to be changing.



Ok, so whats the difference between the reprecussions from the PDGA and players choosing not to play the event?

If the PDGA puts their foot down (not gonna happen) what are they going to do? No longer sanction events for that TD? Isnt that the same as not playing them? Is the PDGA going to enact late fees? Well then the TD will just take monies collected from entry fees and pay the fine.

Nothing can happen to the TD to MAKE them do their job in a timely fashion. And that stinks. While TD's dont make much money, if any, in putting on events, wheres the incentive to forward information we all pay for, besides the 'doing the right thing'.

I am a tourney director and I would like to chime in here .
I have always disliked computers from the moment I took " Concepts in Computer Math " in highschool .
I can write something out faster then I can type it and writing it does not require new software updates ( although some anti wrinkle cream on my hands from time to time does not hurt ) .

HOWEVER , being serious I have to agree with Jeff here that it takes VERY little understanding time and knowhow to use software on a puter . My only complaint was when the PDGA made us use Excel it cost me $320 to purchase the program .
Yea I know I could get it illegially but that is not my gig .
I feel if the PDGA wants something done that is that expensive ( since I dont make any money from running tourneys ) , It should have some sort of ability to reduce or eliminate the cost to TDs .

As far as a timely manner , I am going to tell you that once the tourney is over I like to take some time AWAY from anything that has to do with disc golf for at least 2 days .
I will never submit results faster then one week after tourney .
I go thru all the scorecards and arrange them so when I type in results it is easier . ( OH by the way I refuse to buy a laptop at this point , there is another expence I do not need ) .



Hint: The tourney is NOT over till the information is submitted to the PDGA!

I would hope with that comment you have run many tourneys cause if you have not then shove it .
YEA the tourney is not over until the paper work is DONE but the trial and tribulations that one person goes thru for a PDGA tourney from start to finish is alot . AFTER THE PHYSICAL EVENT IS OVER AND THE LAST PUTT HAS FALLEN AND I AM THE LAST ONE TO LEAVE THE PARK AT DARK CAUSE I ALSO GIVE OUT PRIZES AND CLEAN UP AFTERWARDS I WOULD LIKE AND DO TAKE 2-3 DAYS OFF . GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT .

AND IF YOU DO give me the money to buy a laptop loaded with excel and I will do it at the course before I leave , OTHERWISE ..........

Why does the TD have to be the one that sends everything in? Can someone else do it? I'm sure almost everyone knows SOMEONE with a laptop or at least with MS Excel and an internet connection by now, I mean it is 2005. If anyone asked me to bring my laptop, I could help put in scores after the last round, and I could already have it posted to the internet--I can dial up to the internet through my mobile phone. If a TD ever asks me to help out with that, I'll say "sure." For the most part, all the TD's in DFW are quick about getting stuff done quickly, because they want to see how everyone's scores compare too.

I can't run an event at this point with work and stuff, but later on, assuming DG still works in the same ways, I'd be glad to run one when work doesn't demand so much time. By then computers will be even more necessary, so don't go running and hiding from them!

Matter of fact Im sure there are TD's out there that will sit on this board and post-***** while the tourney information is just 'snail-mailed' to the PDGA.



Oh, that is absolutely happening for sure. TDs are on the PDGA Discussion board posting about their tournament (top 5 finishers, thank you's to sponsors, etc.) when all it would take is a few minutes to upload the scores.



How long does it really take to input scores online and send them to the PDGA???



If I used a spreadsheet to generate a pre-registration list before the tournament, it would take less than 15 minutes to turn on my computer, type in the scores, log into the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System, highlight the data in the spreadsheet, copy, paste, and click on submit.

That is all you have to do!

I would hope with that comment you have run many tourneys cause if you have not then shove it .
YEA the tourney is not over until the paper work is DONE but the trial and tribulations that one person goes thru for a PDGA tourney from start to finish is alot . AFTER THE PHYSICAL EVENT IS OVER AND THE LAST PUTT HAS FALLEN AND I AM THE LAST ONE TO LEAVE THE PARK AT DARK CAUSE I ALSO GIVE OUT PRIZES AND CLEAN UP AFTERWARDS I WOULD LIKE AND DO TAKE 2-3 DAYS OFF . GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT .

AND IF YOU DO give me the money to buy a laptop loaded with excel and I will do it at the course before I leave , OTHERWISE ..........



Heres that proverbial nerve, Pimp!

1. You dont need a laptop to do this.
2. Why are you the only one? ("trials and tribulations that one person goes through......")
3. Cant handle the work load of what is expected, dont do it.
4. If its sooooo easy and dosent take a PHD to do it, why dosent it get done?

Listen man, Im not trying to get your panties in a wad about this. I wasnt even signaling you out, but it seems to me that you take this quite personally. Im glad you do. I wish others would have your same fervor about this issue.

If this assoc wants to continue to grow its gonna have to run like a true business. Do business owners say to themselves; "well I just finished a big sale over the weekend, I think Ill close the store and take a few days off." NOT!

Do business owners that have dreams of being the next large cooperation do everything all by themself? I dont think so.....

Its the TD's responsibility to run the event. If the TD dosent understand the responsibility that comes with taking on such an endeavor.....shame on them!

I would LOVE for someone to step up and take on the responsibility of getting the info in on a timely matter .
THE ONLY tourney in our area that I DID NOT do the results for or ran ( cause other thought they could do it better ), the results were turned in SOOOO LATE that we now if we would ever have that tourney again would have to put down a $100 bounty to make sure we would get results in on time .
AS far as you personnally and others , there is always work to do , families to take care of and the what not . SOME of us do find the time to volenteer and do this and those of us who do SHOULD NOT be dictated to from people who cannot find this time to VOLENTEER . Ask not what a TD can do for you but ASK what you can do for the TD . Dont wait for him/her to come to you go ask them if you can do results .

I know these 2 last messages have come across as mean but I am really tired of people complaining about stuff that is way too trivial . Believe me most results are turned in on a timely manner ( 2 weeks at most )
OThers that are not then instead of complaining ask them to send you the info and do it yourself if you are willing to step up to the plate that is .

We have never received the passcode in time to upload our own pre-registration.



All you have to do is ASK for the passcode EARLY and the PDGA will give it to you. ;)

DID I say I could not handle the work load . I said after the physical tourney is over I like to put it aside for a few days and you are the one who has a problem with that .
I feel a timely manner is a 2 week period . I have a problem with a player who donates NO time to disc golf overall ( let alone run a pdga event or anything else big ) then complains about the people who do the work .
Yea I am passionate about alot in disc golf , I donate alot of time to the sport overall which includes many weekly events all the way up to PDGA events in the area , and it is my opinion that it is PUT up or shut up time .

Scott - have you offered to help Jason get the SB Championships results in and posted - I noticed they are still missing and today makes it 30 days. (not that I really much care because I played crappy). I am pretty sure you helped with getting the Pillage results posted - thanks!

I am a TD that posts my results within 1 or 2 days after the event as well as someone who enjoys looking at posted results from other areas. However, I am one of the exceptions within Indiana. Pre-registrations - what are those!!! :confused: I know that within my state, many of the people TDing tournaments have been doing so for 15+ years and as Rhett mentioned they are doing things the way that works best for them. Many of them have little or no appreciation for what PDGA.com is about, the types of information that is accessible here or the number of people that visit it regularly in search of that information. I think making these types of organizers aware that there are folks out there that would like to see this information posted is a step. The next step is to help them do that - whether you personally sit down with them and show them how easy it is to do or simply take the responsibility to do it for them.

DID I say I could not handle the work load .



Yes in a manner of speaking you did:


As far as a timely manner , I am going to tell you that once the tourney is over I like to take some time AWAY from anything that has to do with disc golf for at least 2 days ."



and


YEA the tourney is not over until the paper work is DONE but......

Hey John,

Ive given time to the club up here but.....

Im not going to air dirty laundry about our local club here on the board. This is not the venue for it.

But this thread is part of the issue..... :(

If you need or want more knowledge on where I stand with the club up here PM me, Ill be more than happy to fill you in on the details.

DID I say I could not handle the work load . I said after the physical tourney is over I like to put it aside for a few days and you are the one who has a problem with that .
I feel a timely manner is a 2 week period . I have a problem with a player who donates NO time to disc golf overall ( let alone run a pdga event or anything else big ) then complains about the people who do the work .
Yea I am passionate about alot in disc golf , I donate alot of time to the sport overall which includes many weekly events all the way up to PDGA events in the area , and it is my opinion that it is PUT up or shut up time .



This attitude is *********!!! If you volunteer your time to run events and do events then you should know that it comes with critizism and complaints. Grow some thicker skin or stop running events. I have helped with events around my area and have donated my time installing courses and pulling them and putting permanent sleaves in the ground for course so I dont want to hear that "you dont do anything *********!!! anymore. I dont run events because I dont have the time. Im a player and donate my time in other areas and in other ways so you can take your attitude and shove it as well. I freakin hate TDs that just complain about what they do and FREAK OUT when people complain that some TDs dont get reports in on time and things like that.

I think 7 days is more then enough time to get the event scores and payouts uploaded to the PDGA for unofficial ratings and to be processed to be put into the players stats. In my opinion if you cant get the scores posted in a week it purely because you are lazy. At most it would take an hour to do this and if a TD cant do that then why are they running events in the first place???

THE PDGA says a timely manner is 30 days . I get my results in within half that time frame .
ANY OTHER COMPLAINTS do it to the PDGA NOT The TD cause we have done our job . Just cause you want it done in a day or 2 does not mean squat .

FYI.... If you guys play in NC by the time you get home sat or sunday the results are up. Its crazy. I love it. Mike Norris is a golden God! It's really easy. Just ask for the password from the PDGA. Bam done ... Next

WHOAA!!!! Easy boys. I think that we should focus on the ones that aren't getting them done in 30 days. I would be thrilled to see the stats done in two weeks. Let's go a little easier on the td's. Keep up the good work guys.

I would take the full 30 days just F' with people like Dweller and Pimp. :p

THE PDGA says a timely manner is 30 days . I get my results in within half that time frame .
ANY OTHER COMPLAINTS do it to the PDGA NOT The TD cause we have done our job . Just cause you want it done in a day or 2 does not mean squat .




I said a week so pull the wad of panties that in your crack out and take a chill pill. We are just saying what we would do and what we would like to see. None of us even singled you out. And frankly 30 days is rediculous I dont care what the PDGA says. They also say and do alot of other things that I think our rediculous but that niether here nor there. Do you HONESTLY think you should get more then a week to do an hours worth of work??? Thats like wiring a whole house for electricity and then saying "Its only going to take an hour to wire all the switches but I think ill wait a week to do that" and frankly I think thats rediculous. If you cant run a tournament go home that nite drink a few beers or whatever it is you do to unwind and enter in 100-200 scores to me thats just lazyness. Why would having a laptop make you do it that day??? Why is it easier to have a laptop and do it that day. Its the same as going home and doing it there or stopping on the way home and doing it somewhere.

absolutely keep up the good work.

here in texas everyone (well TDs anyway) complain about too many events. so here the market can help dictate how fast resutls get turned in.

i am firmly in the camp of "the event is not over til the results are online"... and i do avoid events that develop a rep for slow reporting.

I know no one is attacking me . I just know what it is like to run an event and if people are within the requirement supplied by the PDGA who are you to second guess that .
AS I said if you have a problem with the rule attack the PDGA not the director who does it within the timely fashion .
As you can see since I turn my results in within a week or 2 a have my ideas on what is timely BUT I am NOT GOING TO ATTACK those who do it within the time frame given by the PDGA .
you want me to get my panties on bunched look at yourself first .

I would take the full 30 days just F' with people like Dweller and Pimp. :p



YOU WOULD!!! :D

How about just misspelling his name and PDGA number so it screws up his rating! That'd be worse than not seeing the results for 30 days. ;)

The talk about a laptop is when I go home I do things at home .
Play with kids , take out the garbage , have sex , drink beer .
I spend ALOT of time at the course doing stuff for the sport and when I get home that is MY families time ESPECIALLY after a pdga tourney when I have taken the whole week before to get the course up to perfection .
NOW if I choose to even take up to a week off to then go thru the cards and what not WHO THE HELL ARE you to tell me how to run my life when I am not on the disc golf course . \

If you have problems with the PDGA as you have stated fine but dont complain to the TDS who are within the guidelines . END OF STORY .

I would take the full 30 days just F' with people like Dweller and Pimp. :p



Not to mention the other 30+ (hopefully more) people that played the event......

:eek: :D :D

We are just saying what we would do and what we would like to see.


Yes pimp, you have stated repeatedly that you will not run an event because you are a playa that won't waste his valuable time with that kind of crap.

Of course you are also calling for the heads of the guys who do waste a whole heck of a lot of their time making sure you have an event to play in.

You are unwilling to do yourself that which you insist must be done. According to you, TDs are just lazy clods because some of them won't do what you won't do. Does that makes sense???

As you can see since I turn my results in within a week or 2 a have my ideas on what is timely BUT I am NOT GOING TO ATTACK those who do it within the time frame given by the PDGA .
you want me to get my panties on bunched look at yourself first .



Mine arent bunched. I just boycott the TDs and the events that dont input the results in what I think is a timely fashion. 1-2 weeks. 1 being profered but 2 being accepted. Hell if the TD handed me the scores at the end of the day I would go home drink a few beers and input them all because I would want to see my unofficial ratings and have my scores posted to my stats.

we here in MADC territory also have to send results of NON pdga events to the Madc . the tourney was over sunday night and the last 2 days ( in between discussing this on here ) have submitted results .
I do have to say I do the results on what I would consider a timely matter , all I am saying is dont complain about the people who DO the work and who do it on a timely matter , unless of course you are willing to do it better and faster yourself .

AND NOW MY panties are not bunched up no more , or at least until the next dumb comment about tds .

In my opinion if you cant get the scores posted in a week it purely because you are lazy.



Before I read the rest of the posts I had to reply to this one.

WOW! That is a little bit of harsh. People do have things such as jobs, children, a social life, and other responsibilities outside of posting your precious results. To say that they are lazy after hosting a tournament, that is just over the top. Your negativity and crass language are not at all things I would value in a person. Patience and maturity are virtues.

Sometimes you are running a tournament one weekend, and then you are volunteering to take pictures at USWDGC for DGWN the next weekend and then you are volunteering to look at some public park the folowing weekend to consult on a new disc golf course. If you can get your scores up in 24 hours with that kind of schedule, you deserve a raise. You're not getting one but boy do you deserve one.

Before I read the rest of the posts I had to reply to this one.

WOW! That is a little bit of harsh. People do have things such as jobs, children, a social life, and other responsibilities outside of posting your precious results. To say that they are lazy after hosting a tournament, that is just over the top. Your negativity and crass language are not at all things I would value in a person. Patience and maturity are virtues.



If you take on the responsibility of running a tournament and you dont turn the scores in within a week or 2 then you just havent done your job. Are you telling me that you can find the hours and hours and hours it takes to run a tournament but you cant find an hour to input the scores??? Thats rediculous!!! I even said if any of the TDs are my tournaments gave me the cards and the password then I WOULD DO IT!!!

Inputing scores is part of being a TD and if you can find the time to do it in the 2 weeks after your event thats just rediculous. I have patience and maturity but seriously it takes like an hour to do this. If you cant find an hour of time in 2 weeks then you are way to busy to be running tournaments in the first place. Dont attack me beause I would do it different and I want to get what I pay for when I pay my membership dues. Its people like you guys with the "We are better then you cuz we run tournaments and you dont so if you dont like it you can shove it" attitude that make me sick. You took on the responsibility. NO ONE FORCED you to run a tournament. You wanted to and if you cant get the scores input in a timely fashion then you are going to take flack for it. Would you do that at your job??? Would you spend 10-40 hours working on a project and work and then tell your boss or customer that you only have an hour left to finish the job but you are going to wait 2 weeks to do it because you have already done so much work to get it to where it is??? NO YOU WOULDNT!!! Would you volunteer for habitat for humanity and when you have an hours worth of work left till the family can live there tell them "We are going to finish your house in two weeks because we just dont feel like finishing it now???" NO YOU WOULDNT!!! Would you mow 90 percent of your lawn and then say "I think ill finish this is 2 weeks because im almost done but I dont feel like doing the rest??? NO YOU WOULDNT!!! So why would you do it with a tournament???

Of course you deserve a raise for all of your hard work. How's 100% sound?
Now 100% x 0 = $0.00. Don't spend it all in one place.

Sometimes you are running a tournament one weekend, and then you are volunteering to take pictures at USWDGC for DGWN the next weekend and then you are volunteering to look at some public park the folowing weekend to consult on a new disc golf course. If you can get your scores up in 24 hours with that kind of schedule, you deserve a raise. You're not getting one but boy do you deserve one.



Why not go home from the tournament and input them right then and there. Then its done and over with and you dont have to worry about it anymore. Its just an extra hour. Why not do it and get it over with??? It makes no sence to me???

Wow.

If you take on the responsibility of running a tournament and you dont turn the scores in within a week or 2 then you just havent done your job. Are you telling me that you can find the hours and hours and hours it takes to run a tournament but you cant find an hour to input the scores??? Thats rediculous!!! I even said if any of the TDs are my tournaments gave me the cards and the password then I WOULD DO IT!!!


In my experience, most big mouth whiners do not follow through on anything, so I wouldn't hand you the cards anyway. In typical fashion, and as so many others have done, you would follow that up with something like this: I VOLUNTEERED TO HELP BUT THAT LAZY CRAP TD DIDN'T TAKE ME UP ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You would have to show up and actually do some stuff a few times before you were entrusted with the cards!

In any event, pimp, since you keep saying over and over and over and over again how you do not run events and how you will not run events because you are a playa and can't be bothered to waste your time running events, would you kindly quit bashing the kind souls who do give up their free time to put on the tournaments that you play in? Really. Please stop. Believe me, one ******* like you really can make a difference and convince a perfectly capable TD that the BS just isn't worth it anymore.

We're all going to start sounding like Nick very soon. Run an event and see how much work it is or shut it.

I would like to know why we are still using Excel for the TD report. It seems that a program could be made or purchased that would make it easier on TDs. This same program could spit out an XML document that could be uploaded to the online scoring program. This would solve the problem of TDs having to purchase software as well as making sure the reports are more accurate. More accurate meaning that important fields could not be null.

I didn't start this thread as a forum to bash TDs. I appreciate all the hard work they do and sacrifices they make to run events.

And, after consulting the PDGA Sanctioning agreements, it appears that utilizing the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System isn't even a requirement.

I'm just trying to point out how incredibly easy it is to utilize the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System for pre-registration and posting scores after the event. This should not add significantly to the workload of a vast majority of tournament directors, and would go a long way to end the "Where's the scores" animosity that gets directed their way when results aren't available for weeks and months after the tournament.

Again, while no rules have been broken, we won't know the scores for at least 2-3 weeks for the two SuperTour A-tier events recently held in my region. No one posted the scores on the online system, and they won't be up until the PDGA receives the report from the TD and a PDGA employee uploads it himself.

To me, that just "seems" lame.

In my experience, most big mouth whiners do not follow through on anything, so I wouldn't hand you the cards anyway. In typical fashion, and as so many others have done, you would follow that up with something like this: I VOLUNTEERED TO HELP BUT THAT LAZY CRAP TD DIDN'T TAKE ME UP ON IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You would have to show up and actually do some stuff a few times before you were entrusted with the cards!

In any event, pimp, since you keep saying over and over and over and over again how you do not run events and how you will not run events because you are a playa and can't be bothered to waste your time running events, would you kindly quit bashing the kind souls who do give up their free time to put on the tournaments that you play in? Really. Please stop. Believe me, one ******* like you really can make a difference and convince a perfectly capable TD that the BS just isn't worth it anymore.



Whatever man. I wasnt even bashing your or anyone you know. I was just saying if you cant get it done it 2 weeks that rediculous and you proved your own point. If someone offered to help you wouldnt let them. Get a life man and stop acting like your better then everyone else because you run events. Im so sick of that crap!!! Im also sick of the fact that you think everyone should run events if they complain. YOU chose to run events. People are going to complain if you cant handle it stop running events. Someone else will run them. Heck we had like 70 Sanctioned tournaments in Michigan this year compared to 54 last year so if anything there are more TDs now then last year so I dont think there is a shortage on TDs or tournaments. If you dont want to run them STOP running them. You guys are the ones attacking people not me. I just stated how I felt on the matter and that I stoped playing a series because they couldnt get their scores input in a timely fashion and you guys come out of the woodwork. Get real. Maybe if you spent the time you posted inputting scores online the night of your event we wouldnt be having this conversation :mad:

Hey Lung , sorry to quote you here , but this does make sense :
I'm just trying to point out how incredibly easy it is to utilize the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System for pre-registration and posting scores after the event. This should not add significantly to the workload of a vast majority of tournament directors, and would go a long way to end the "Where's the scores" animosity that gets directed their way when results aren't available for weeks and months after the tournament.

I just played the United States Masters Tournament in La Mirada , CA.

Online scoring is just Awesome.

I even knew what hole I was starting on for the next days round , before that day was up !!!!!!

Who I was playing with and what time I was starting !!!!!!!

Online scoring is the best and In my opinion , EVERY Tournament Director , should have the ability to post scores for any sanctioned or non sanctioned events.

Thanks,

Donny Olow

Dude, you should really try to understand that everyone doesn't think like you (thank God). Don't keep running your mouth without the experience behind you. You DON'T know how it feels, do you? You have never put your heart and soul (and maybe even part of next month's rent) into making an event something special for others, have you? You haven't gotten up at 5:00 Saturday morning to get water, banners, sponsor tee signs, OB lines, and all the other niceities out at the course before everyone else shows up so you can start doing registrations when the crowd shows up, have you? And then do it again Sunday morning (without the registrations). You keep saying what you "WOULD" do if you ever decided to do it, but you don't really plan on doing anything but complaining that you aren't being treated fairly. "YOUR" ratings are suffering, "YOUR" rounds aren't being displayed to the rest of the world, these TD's are holding "YOU" back from greatness.

Is anyone else out there glad that this loser dosen't live in your area?

To meet him..........actually youd be surprised. Hes actually quite civil. I had the pleasure of being on the same card as he as recently as the USADGC.

(ssshhhhhh........his bark is worse than his bite......but dont tell him....)

He does have more game than he had last year, so its all good.

I think what hes really trying to get across is this:

We all pay for a service. Hmmm....two really.....one is the PDGA dues and they get us ratings, amongst other great values. The other being the TD. The TD has agreed to perform a service to run an event. Nothing more. The other amenities such as food, water, give aways, flowers for the ladies (nice idea, Chris!) these are the things that keep you coming back to play again and again. Dont think Im not being appreciative here, I am! But man, there has to be something done about doing the job and doing the job right.

Sure, the PDGA gives 30 days to turn in the finished event information. Why wait till then to do it? You spent all that other effort in getting us to play in your wonderful event only to slap us in the face with "I'll get the informatioin to the PDGA when it suits me.......".

So the thing to do , instead of running your mouth against the TD's efforts, is to try something like JROC said a few pages back. Approach the people who are giving something that you don't want to give, and ask them nicely if you can work into their system to make things better for everyone. Chances are, they will jump on that offer. However, if they only see you as a negative voice, someone who constantly voices negative vibes about others volunteer efforts, it may take some actual effort on YOUR part to persuade them that you can offer some service (hopefully free of charge). And being nice is a big part of the presentation. Until you've done the work involved with putting on a really good tournament, you don't understand how negativity can destroy future events.

Pimp, you aren't bashing me. I know what I do and you don't. But you also are not "just voicing your opinion." You are blasting a group of hard working individuals. You have called them too dumb to learn a computer. You have repeatedly called them lazy. You are being a captal-D towards the people that provide a great service to you for free. And I don't even play any michigan tourneys and know it's true!

Getting the results posted on Sunday night does not make or break an event.

The funny thing is you guys are getting all bent out of shape and I havent said anything about you guys or your events. I am talking about people that take 30 days OR MORE to get the results posted to the PDGA. Both of you do it in about 2 weeks and the one TD says he does it like 2 or 3 days after the tournament. Thats great. I love that. What I dont love is waiting 30+ days to see what my rounds were rated and have them counted into my stats. Thats rediculous and you both know it you just love attacking me so much that you cant even see past that!!! Grow up guys. People are going to complain about EVERYTHING and they are ALWAYS going to complain no matter what. I hate to say it but if you cant accept that then stop running tournaments. You can never make EVERYONE happy it just doesnt happen.

I thank TDs like you guys for running tournaments and getting the results input in a timely fashion. I dont thank TDs that make money off the ams and then slack and dont send the results in on time.

By the way I never called anyone too stupid to learn a computer. I just said that not EVERYONE and prolly most TDs dont OWN computers or know how to use one. There are still people out there without computers and without computer skills so that was a valid statement.

Now if you would kindly climb off my back we can get back to doing what we do best.

I would like to know why we are still using Excel for the TD report. It seems that a program could be made or purchased that would make it easier on TDs. This same program could spit out an XML document that could be uploaded to the online scoring program. This would solve the problem of TDs having to purchase software as well as making sure the reports are more accurate. More accurate meaning that important fields could not be null.



It may be possible to modify the existing workbook so that you could use OpenOffice Calc ( http://www.openoffice.org ) rather than Excel. I have never tried to use the PDGA file on my linux machine at home that has OOo, but I'd imagine the majority of it should work just fine, outside of some of the macros perhaps. My daughter uses it for all her homework, reports, etc.

Besides it's small size and compatibility with Word, Excel, and others, OOo is free.

Sometimes you are running a tournament one weekend, and then you are volunteering to take pictures at USWDGC for DGWN the next weekend and then you are volunteering to look at some public park the folowing weekend to consult on a new disc golf course. If you can get your scores up in 24 hours with that kind of schedule, you deserve a raise. You're not getting one but boy do you deserve one.



Why not go home from the tournament and input them right then and there. Then its done and over with and you dont have to worry about it anymore. Its just an extra hour. Why not do it and get it over with??? It makes no sence to me???



Bruce was talking about me. I do and I did. That's why he said that I deserve a raise...that I'm not going to get! Sometimes I have the scores up before anyone gets home. At Streamwood I had the scores up before the awards. I've found that the more I can get done at the course, the quicker I can get the scores up. Once I get home, life gets in the way. I think the longest I've taken to get scores up this year was 2 or 3 days after the Rockford leg where we had around 170 players.

Doing the rest of the TD report sometimes requires the rest of the month to find time to do. It's the putting in of the 30 to 50 names and addresses of non-pdga members that really takes a long time. And it is tedious. The next longest item is the recreating of the payouts after I misplace the payouts that we posted at the tournament! Fortunately, I don't do that very often! :D

The funny thing is you guys are getting all bent out of shape and I havent said anything about you guys or your events. I am talking about people that take 30 days OR MORE to get the results posted to the PDGA.


No, pimp, you have been whining that it should never take more than 2 days, and if it does then the TD is LAZY.


Thats rediculous and you both know it you just love attacking me so much that you cant even see past that!!! Grow up guys.


Oh yeah, I wake up every morning thinking: "What can I attack the pimp about today?" Yup, that's it.

Pimp, you constantly attack the TDs of PDGA eventsand calll them lazy. I do not appreciate you doing that. That is why I am attacking you here. I am attacking you for the message you are sending, not because I know that you are a nit-wit. That knowledge has not influenced my stance on this topic. When you post some lame things about people doing stuff better than you ever could (hence your refusal to even try because you know couldn't do it one tenth as well) then I am going to call you on it. Get used to it.

The problem is that you make so many lame arguments that don't make any sense. People are always smacking you down for it so much that you seem to have convinced yourself that it must be because people don't like you. That's not it, pimp.

The funny thing is you guys are getting all bent out of shape and I havent said anything about you guys or your events. I am talking about people that take 30 days OR MORE to get the results posted to the PDGA. Both of you do it in about 2 weeks and the one TD says he does it like 2 or 3 days after the tournament. Thats great. I love that. What I dont love is waiting 30+ days to see what my rounds were rated and have them counted into my stats. Thats rediculous and you both know it you just love attacking me so much that you cant even see past that!!! Grow up guys.


Pimp, it's ridiculous!!! Not the fact that it takes TD's 30 days to get the scores in, but your constant mispelling of this word! R-I-D-I-C-U-L-O-U-S...

LMFAO

I was wondering how long that would take. Did Pimp finish high school?

No, pimp, you have been whining that it should never take more than 2 days, and if it does then the TD is LAZY.



Can you show me where I said within 2 days or the TD is lazy because I would love to see that.

I can show you where you said if it took more than a week, the TD was obviously lazy.

And, after consulting the PDGA Sanctioning agreements, it appears that utilizing the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System isn't even a requirement.



Scratch that.

I just examined the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards (Updated 12/15/2004) (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf) where the following is printed on page 4 for SuperTour 'A' Tier events:


PDGA provides TD Scoring Package; scores by round required to be posted at pdga.com



For B-Tier, C-Tier and D-Tier events, the following is printed:


PDGA provides TD Scoring Package; scores by round requested to be posted at pdga.com



So basically, I interpret that as SuperTour 'A' Tier events that did not use the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System violated the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards.

In all honesty is prolly because 99 percent of TDs dont even OWN a freakin computer much less know how to use one.


Oh yeah, that's not insulting at all.

Can you show me where I said within 2 days or the TD is lazy because I would love to see that.


I stand corrected. You said that if a TD took more than a week then s/he was lazy and shouldn't run PDGA tournaments.

Someone should point that using the online scoring tool and turning the TD report do not accomplish the same things.

I stand corrected. You said that if a TD took more than a week then s/he was lazy and shouldn't run PDGA tournaments.



This whole time I have been saying a week to 2 weeks. I dont know where you got the 2 day thing from. Maybe you were blinded by your I HATE PIMP glasses or something.

I hate the message, not the messenger.

But complaining about being hated is a good way to deny that your message is crap.

What ? :confused:

Hey Pimp!
I got your AM Nationals score's in BEFORE the awards ceremony :eek: so you could get the ratings. I know you already said thanks :D, but just wanted to add some fuel to the fire. :cool:

Todd, TD's like you have spoiled pimp :D

thanks for doing such a great job with the USADGC!

Seriously guys, Pimp has been posting here long enough for you to understand his rhetorical style. If you can look past the hyperbole and the BROKEN CAPS LOCK KEY, you'll see that he usually has a decent point, or at least represents a valid side of the argument.

So take his posts for what they are: feedback. For some people, having the scores up right away is obviously very important. TDs work incredibly hard ... maybe there's some area that could be scaled back if it meant getting scores posted quickly. (Food and water are great, but I always bring my own. Maybe that could go. Or OB tape. Who likes OB anyway?)

When I got home from the Eastern Mass. Championships to find the results already online, I was stunned. I've waited so long for scores in the past that I pretty much gave up hope of ever seeing them. It's great to go home from an event and see the results when everything's still fresh in your mind. As long as you played well ...

This is just one player's perspective. Take it for what it's worth.

We're all going to start sounding like Nick very soon. Run an event and see how much work it is or shut it.



I suppose here on the mess bored there is a natural fear of actually making sense. Steve Mills clearly has S for brains. All you have to do is read his ignorant nonsense to know that.

Witchhunts get us nowhere.

Excellent point Gary. Also, as jeterdawg suggested earlier; you dont have to be the TD to do either of these things. The tourney I helped out, I did the on-line scoring and the TD report. I got with the TD after it was over, we figured out all the money(Pro purse, Am payouts, monatary value of the players packs, ACE pot, etc.) and the rest of it was already entered. All the TD had to do was mail the PDGA a check (the amount of which is also calculated for you). The only thing that takes a lot of time is entering the names in under their respective divisions; which in my opinion should be entered during registration. Lunch between Rd. 1 and Rd. 2 may not be long enough enter names, eat, rest a bit, etc. If you do that early on, the rest follows pretty easily

Another thing I didnt think about was someone not having Excel. I take that part for granted. If there is anyone out there that wants to do some of this on-line stuff but doesnt have Excel or is leary about trying it, I would be happy to help out. E-mail me and we can discuss it. Doesnt have to be just Texas...anywhere in the country :D

[email protected]

This is not a witchhunt.

Essentially, we have tour standards that A-tier events aren't following. Check out the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards (Updated 12/15/2004) (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf) where the following is printed on page 4 for SuperTour 'A' Tier events:


PDGA provides TD Scoring Package; scores by round required to be posted at pdga.com



Tour standards are being violated. Why have them if they're not being followed? What is the PDGA going to do about these tournaments and TDs that don't follow agreed upon standards?

For lower tier events, they are requested but not required. However, I think these TDs could avoid a lot of animosity by using the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System to easily upload scores after an event - competitors nowadays wait weeks and months for the official report to be sent in and for the PDGA to post it.

I agree that not having excel loaded is unexpected. There should be someone in the DG community able to put together an opensource solution for the TD report and score tracking for those without excel. I don't have the experience to do it, but there must be someone out there that does.

*cough* Openoffice.org

Sorry, you had said that before. I was thinking of a stand-alone application, but that should do nicely. Have you tried loading the TD-Report to see if any of the macros are not supported ?

This is not a witchhunt.

Essentially, we have tour standards that A-tier events aren't following. Check out the 2005 PDGA Tour Standards (Updated 12/15/2004) (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf) where the following is printed on page 4 for SuperTour 'A' Tier events:


PDGA provides TD Scoring Package; scores by round required to be posted at pdga.com







No it's a whinefest.

Where does it say in the tour agreement the time frame to put scores up? If you put the scores up a week later, you are still within the guidelines.


Complete TD Report received by the PDGA office within two weeks of event completion
including all fees and memberships collected

"By round" implies at the completion of each round.

You sure? "by round" is pretty ambiguous. It could mean that all 4-6 rounds have to be imputed, not just the final standings.

It also means that the scores be posted in the online system which shows the players the unofficial ratings until the event is processed for inclusion in the next update.

The TD report does not get processed the same way, and the players may not ever see any unofficial ratings and have to wait until the next update to see the ratings.

xterramaTT wrote on another thread:


Thus far this month, 78 tournaments have been played, and only 32 of them have scores up. 2 have preregistration lists but no scores

1 A tier, 15 B tier, 25, make that 19 C tiers (OK, I'll remove the ones that are from other countries) and a bunch of assorted tourneys have no scores up yet.

Shouldn't this be closer to 80%, not 40%?




Actually, I think you just don't understand how the scores get up on the site. The TD report is the official report that the PDGA uses to reward points, and get the OFFICIAL ratings. But to get your scores up online after your event, you need to follow the link in the email you get with the password to upload scores. You then take them from the TD report, paste them into the web form, set up your course layouts and BAM. You have your scores online, as well as preliminary ratings. The TD report will not get those ratings updated until there is a ratings or points update.

Maybe it's just miscommunication, but you can still get those scores up now. If you've done the report, it's a matter of copy and paste, plus setting up different course layout setups and assigning them to the different divisions, that is, if you had multiple layouts for different divisions, if not, then it is really easy.

Someone should be able to post a link to score uploading instructions. Maybe that's a little bit of a communication issue with the PDGA. They won't get scores up on the site until a ratings update most likely, but you can get scores up immediately, appeasing hundreds if not thousands of internet and ratings geeks. It's a little confusing the first time, but it's cake after that.



I'm willing to bet that it's not just "internet and ratings geeks" that want to see the scores. I bet there are many, many regular disc golfers who go on to the PDGA site ocassionally just to look for tournament results after an event, and they are not there.

Also, full instructions on how to use the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System are here:

PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/admin/help.php)

Here's a question to ponder:

Why do players that live in one of the most active disc golf regions in the world yet never play in any events, let alone PDGA events, give a **** about "Why aren't TDs using the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System?"

Seems like a fair question to me...

I think the answer to both questions must have something to do with the two meter rule.

I think the answer to both questions must have something to do with the two meter rule.



Being that you quite obviously are omniscient I will accept your take on the matter.

Because golfers all around the country want to see the scores and their ratings in a reasonable timeframe, you dope!

Here's a question to ponder:

Why does the fact that my work and family schedule, as well as that I've volunteered to do Scoring for several PDGA Majors and smaller-tiered events, all of which have kept me from playing in PDGA tournaments for the last 15 months, bother you so much?

Not to mention the tournaments I specifically avoided because I knew Nick was going to be there. Nick, you somehow take the greatest game in the world and manage to single-handedly suck the joy right out of it.

The weekend of the MAAC, I get no more than 5-6 hours total sleep. By the time I get home Sunday night after the event, I won't even turn on the PC to see how my football picks are doing. So Sunday night after the event just isn't an option. Of course, it's reasonable to suggest that I could delegate that responsibility to someone less tired.

This year, I had my results up by Monday afternoon. Here are the reasons why:

I know I have to do my PDGA tourney report eventually, might as well start with the "Scores" page. It's true, once you have your players scores/rounds entered into a spreadsheet, getting them posted is very simple.

But the real reason I got my results up in less than 24 hours? EGO! I wanted to be viewed as Buster Bada$$ by those who played my event. I WANT THEM BACK NEXT YEAR. I knew posting my results would have a positive effect on how players view my event. This is the Number 1 reason why I made it a priority.

If my players couldn't care less, than I couldn't care less. One thing you can be sure of.... YOUR PLAYERS CARE and want those results posted ASAP.

I'm willing to bet that it's not just "internet and ratings geeks" that want to see the scores. I bet there are many, many regular disc golfers who go on to the PDGA site ocassionally just to look for tournament results after an event, and they are not there.

You are absolutely right. Here in NorCal, players have come to expect to see their scores posted within hours of the completion of a round. And while we may be home to the Silicon Valley, the large majority of players are NOT internet or ratings geeks. They just want to see how the stack up against the competition. These players spend a lot of time looking at their stats here on PDGA.com but would never think to post on the message board. Posters represent a very small percentage of regular PDGA.com users.

I'm willing to bet that it's not just "internet and ratings geeks" that want to see the scores. I bet there are many, many regular disc golfers who go on to the PDGA site ocassionally just to look for tournament results after an event, and they are not there.

You are absolutely right. Here in NorCal, players have come to expect to see their scores posted within hours of the completion of a round. And while we may be home to the Silicon Valley, the large majority of players are NOT internet or ratings geeks. They just want to see how the stack up against the competition. These players spend a lot of time looking at their stats here on PDGA.com but would never think to post on the message board. Posters represent a very small percentage of regular PDGA.com users.



Absolutely correct! I like the results posted immediately myself, but whining about it here on the mess bored to folks you just pointed out make up a tiny portion of PDGA event players and even smaller portion of PDGA organizers accomplishes exactly what?

Call the TD. Shoot them and email. Say, "Hey, if you get those cards to me I'll post the results for you and get your TD Report under way (at least the scores part)." Now you are doing something constructive.

Why aren't TDs using the PDGA Online Tournament Scoring System?

The answer to this question is simple: Because they are people just like you, putting their pants on one leg at a time and have to prioritize there energies and work load in order to function at all. Sometimes that results in them not making use of certain tools provided by the PDGA. Whether it is too their benefit to use the tools or not is a different matter. Run an event of any size and you will know this all to be true.

The question should be: Why don't players of a PDGA Event communicate more clearly their desires to see their results posted quickly to their host TDs? And why don't they offer their assistance without the need to be asked, particularly for things they have prioritized for themselves?

The PDGA is in no position to go "thumb breaking", or not as an organizing body that is. The PDGA, as in "YOU" is in a position to let your thoughts and preferences be know directly to those who can take direct action on them, the Tournament Directors. Posting stuff here, I think it is generally agreed, is more of a pass time than an attempt to actually form policy or communicate concerns to folks that can actually do something about them.

Posting stuff here, I think it is generally agreed, is more of a pass time than an attempt to actually form policy or communicate concerns to folks that can actually do something about them.



Yea, anyone who posts stuff here does so just to pass time. There's NO chance that hundreds of disc golfers might read, and contribute to ideas on here. There's NO chance that dozens of tournament directors across the country might read stuff on here, think it's a good idea, and implement it for their own tournaments. There's NO chance that PDGA employees might actually read something on here and think it's a good idea and worthy of passing on to the general membership through official outlets.

Nick, are you really that daft? :confused:

Please note that, according to the terms of the 2006 PDGA Tour Event Sanctioning Agreement (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06SanctionAgreement.pdf), tournament directors agree

• that for SuperTour (A Tier) events: electronic results will be posted during the event using the on-line scoring software provided by PDGA; an additional copy of the electronic results, including course layouts and which divisions played which layout will be submitted to PDGA within 24 hours of event completion to the PDGA office; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 2 weeks following the event, including all player fees and memberships collected.

• that for that B, C & D Tier events: electronic results (and course layout information) will be provided to the PDGA within 72 hours after the event; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 1 month following the event, including all playerfees and memberships collected.

Please note that, according to the terms of the 2006 PDGA Tour Event Sanctioning Agreement (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06SanctionAgreement.pdf), tournament directors agree

� that for SuperTour (A Tier) events: electronic results will be posted during the event using the on-line scoring software provided by PDGA; an additional copy of the electronic results, including course layouts and which divisions played which layout will be submitted to PDGA within 24 hours of event completion to the PDGA office; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 2 weeks following the event, including all player fees and memberships collected.

� that for that B, C & D Tier events: electronic results (and course layout information) will be provided to the PDGA within 72 hours after the event; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 1 month following the event, including all playerfees and memberships collected.



THANK GOD!!!

I have 2 B Tiers that I have played in the last month and a half and niether of them have posted results. The first one was on September 24th and I WON!!! The other one was 2 or 3 weeks ago and they havent posted those results either. I really hope those reports get to the PDGA before the ratings update cut off.

I dont feel like looking up the standards for 05 but I think i am correct in saying that quite a few tournaments didnt follow those terms either, that goes for 02-03-04 also. So why would changing anything make a difference if nothing is done about it if tournaments dont follow anyway???

You better duck because I said that earlier this year and people were throwing stones at me left and right :eek:

I can take it :D

You better duck because I said that earlier this year and people were throwing stones at me left and right :eek:


You didn't exactly say the same thing, pimp.

Please note that, according to the terms of the 2006 PDGA Tour Event Sanctioning Agreement (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/06SanctionAgreement.pdf), tournament directors agree

� that for SuperTour (A Tier) events: electronic results will be posted during the event using the on-line scoring software provided by PDGA; an additional copy of the electronic results, including course layouts and which divisions played which layout will be submitted to PDGA within 24 hours of event completion to the PDGA office; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 2 weeks following the event, including all player fees and memberships collected.

� that for that B, C & D Tier events: electronic results (and course layout information) will be provided to the PDGA within 72 hours after the event; the complete TD Report will be received by the PDGA no longer than 1 month following the event, including all playerfees and memberships collected.


And what is the penalty if TDs have what they call an A/B/C/D tier but don't do the above?

It would be impractical for the PDGA to enforce all the rules and regulations it imposes on TDs because it needs its TDs more than the TDs need it. This leaves TDs to guess at which ones matter and which ones don't. This is how I guess:

<table border="1"><tr><td> line</td><td> item</td><td> matters to PDGA</td><td> matters to players
</td></tr><tr><td>34</td><td> enforce rules of play</td><td> somewhat</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>36</td><td> drug and alcohol policy</td><td> a lot</td><td> somewhat
</td></tr><tr><td>39</td><td> players compete in proper divisions</td><td> somewhat</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>42</td><td> A-tier scoring deadline</td><td> very little</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>48</td><td> BCD-tier scoring deadline</td><td> very little</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>52</td><td> collect and pay player fees</td><td> quite a bit</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>55</td><td> exclude non-members from A-tiers</td><td> ???</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>61</td><td> charge non-members $5 at BCDs</td><td> quite a bit</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>75</td><td> soft cards</td><td> a little</td><td> matters only to the new member himself
</td></tr><tr><td>79</td><td> promote developmental memberships</td><td> not at all</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>83</td><td> use PDGA payout tables</td><td> not at all</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>87</td><td> post pro and am payouts</td><td> not at all</td><td> somewhat
</td></tr><tr><td>90</td><td> permission to use course</td><td> somewhat</td><td> somewhat
</td></tr><tr><td>93</td><td> no sixsomes</td><td> very little</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>95</td><td> 36 hole minimum</td><td> a little</td><td> quite a bit
</td></tr><tr><td>97</td><td> distribution of tournament evaluation form</td><td> not at all</td><td> not at all
</td></tr><tr><td>99</td><td> public relations</td><td> who knows?</td><td> huh?
</td></tr><tr><td>102</td><td> seeking waiver</td><td> might matter ex post facto</td><td> not much
</td></tr><tr><td>107</td><td> media rights</td><td> usually not at all</td><td> not at all</tr></td></table>

We try to comply with the things that matter to the players, the PDGA or ourselves. But, for example, our players complain when we use the PDGA payout tables. They like the JBB payout tables much, much more. So long as we are far exceeding the tier minimums we feel free to tweak the payout tables.

My best guess, after five years of running sanctioned events, is that the office does not want complaints or headaches. They do want their cut. Any TD who covers those three basic requirements will get a pass on most of everything else.

Which brings me to my point: Why bother spending any time on changing Tour Standards if they aren't enforced anyway? If the original tour stan dards(or the ones i have seen) were enforced then maybe poeple would actually follow them? Would that not be less of a headache?



-
Disclaimer- I am not makin g any attempt to start contreversy etc. I serious don't get it.

I think you have a good point, especially as to the 72 hour posting requirement for 2005. Most concientious, energetic TDs were doing that already because the players cared. Maybe now some more concientous TDs will post scores, but I don't think there will be widespread compliance with the new requirement because most TDs won't even know there is a new requirement.

Maybe the PDGA should make it a requirement that the TD read the sanctioning agreement before seeking sanctioning for an event! ;) :D

Or maybe just enforce the standards???? That way they pretty much have to make themselves read it and suffer the consequenses if they do not comply :confused:

Well that just brings us back to my point: it would be impractical to enforce all the standards because the PDGA needs its TDs more than they need the PDGA.

Doing business with the PDGA is no different from doing business with anyone else. There's a long list of stuff in the contract but the bottom line is, "Is this minor breach worth not doing business with them in the future?" If you got what you paid for, but they were a little late, but it did not really postpone the job any, and they are the most convenient supplier to deal with, you let stuff slide.

The PDGA did $3,000 to $4,000 worth of business with Jon in 2005. I don't think they got any complaints or headaches. When they wanted Jon to waive his zone of exclusion for two other tournaments, they were able to come to an accomodation. So if Jon was late with a TD report once, and was a little creative with his payout curve in a way the players prefer, there is not going to be a problem. It is just good business to work that way.

I dont see the need to revise something that isnt enforced anyway.

And what is the penalty if TDs have what they call an A/B/C/D tier but don't do the above?



Good question. No law or rule is worth a salt unless there is a sufficient penalty to back it up. I was always under the impression that tourneys could be punished with future revocation of PDGA sanctioning, but have heard stories about tournaments that turned in money/results more than six months late and still got sanctioning again the following year.

As Bruce points out, the PDGA needs tournaments more than the tournaments need the PDGA, so unless the tour standards violation is especially egregious, (see Bruce's list on what matter most to the PDGA) there's probably no penalty at all.

I was just pointing out its existence. How it gets enforced is entirely different matter.

My list is mostly just my guess. Some of it I could support with examples, but I won't so as not to embarass anyone.

The standards are like the PDGA leading by pulling on their end. Compliant TDs like my brother Jon will go along with whatever is new this year. There are bound to be some TDs who have never posted scores simply because it is not required. Now they will post scores. Some still won't. I don't see the PDGA ceasing to do business with anyone over this though. How many TDs post amateur payouts besides Jon and I?

How many TDs post amateur payouts besides Jon and I?


I do. But they get chopped off when the results go "official". I only found that out this year. Up until then I wondered why I was the only one to post am payouts.

Your right though Scott. Why go and change the standard if they dont enforce it anyway???

How many TDs post amateur payouts besides Jon and I?


I do. But they get chopped off when the results go "official". I only found that out this year. Up until then I wondered why I was the only one to post am payouts.



Actually, I think Bruce means to post the payouts at the course. I forget the wording in the sanctioning agreement but basically for a one day, two round tournament we have to have the payout posted by the end of the first round.

How many TDs post amateur payouts besides Jon and I?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do. But they get chopped off when the results go "official". I only found that out this year. Up until then I wondered why I was the only one to post am payouts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Actually, I think Bruce means to post the payouts at the course. I forget the wording in the sanctioning agreement but basically for a one day, two round tournament we have to have the payout posted by the end of the first round.




Just to answer the question, every tourney I go to does that.

I've been doing that since I first started helping at tourneys.

How many TDs post amateur payouts besides Jon and I?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I do. But they get chopped off when the results go "official". I only found that out this year. Up until then I wondered why I was the only one to post am payouts.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Actually, I think Bruce means to post the payouts at the course. I forget the wording in the sanctioning agreement but basically for a one day, two round tournament we have to have the payout posted by the end of the first round.




Just to answer the question, every tourney I go to does that.



In our neck of the woods Bruce and I were the only TDs posting Am payouts for a long time. All the TDs around here have been posting Pro payouts for as long as I've been playing tournaments. Just this year I've seen a few TDs post Am payouts along with the pro payouts.

I think it reads that the payout should be posted before the last round of the event. And, I have posted all payouts at tournaments that I have kept score for (about a dozen) except for one...and that was just an oversight on my part.

I also post scores online through the PDGA site at the end of each day. I think a big part of the reason some dont is just lack of knowlege on how to use the on-line scoring. Keeping things organized so the event runs smoothly is the most important thing. I have tried to offer my services to every event in my area because I really believe in the professional aspect that on-line score posting adds to an event. I even incorporated a tab on the excel scoring routine I use that will run a script and format the results so you can simply paste it directly into the on-line scoring upload field.

I'm not trying to say events that dont post scores on-line are un-professional...but, it sure enhances the quality of an event IMO.

Nick, you somehow take the greatest game in the world and manage to single-handedly suck the joy right out of it.




Hmmm...wouldn't this be considered a personal attack on someone? Please explain, then put yourself on probation Jeff. :D

Larry,

Check the date - that post was made in Sept. of 2005 and a full year before the current PDGA DISCussion Board rules and regulations went into place. I can't even remember who was the moderator at that time (Terry Calhoun?) but I guess he let that one slip by. :D