Im sick of people that speak bad about people who call the rules or enforce the rules.

Why is it that every time someone gets called out on taking to long to play or foot faulting or breaking branches its the guy who calls them out thats considered a d!ck??? Why is that??? Those people are CHEATING!!! They are the ones being a D!CK for CHEATING not the guys who are calling them out on it???

I just want to hear everyones opinion on this and why it seems like the people who enforce and play by the rules are the ones that get a bad rep and not the people that are violating the rules.

Thanks

I think it is because most people don't call the rules. The people that do are then seen as anal retentive idgits.

Thats horrible. If someone isnt following the rules they are CHEATING and should be called out on it.

I know what you mean, pimp...I have called a person on a rule violation before and he thought I was trying to make it personal or something, he acted like I was attacking him which was not the case...some people get mad when your simply pointing out they are in violation of the rules.

You are talking about sanctioned tournament play right?

Because when I play casual rounds and break off branches, I consider that "course maintenance". :D

I think you used some bad examples - I have never seen breaking branches NOT called. That's obvious course destruction and totally wrong and just about everyone in the world knows it.

And as far as foot faults go, unless you release your drive way in front of the tee pad or your fairway lie, foot faults are really minor infractions, imo. Yes, rules are rules and they should be called, but most people won't but because it doesn't really affect play. Of course foot faults that involve falling putts, improper jump putts, and when a player is stretching from an obstructed lie are a different story.

You are talking about sanctioned tournament play right?

Because when I play casual rounds and break off branches, I consider that "course maintenance". :D


Cheater...
I also understand where you are coming from and because of this have "let things slide" because of the reputation one gets for calling rules violations.

At Am Nats, I let so much [I'm a potty-mouth!] slide including, throwing discs back to caddies, non manufacturer stickers on discs, +30 second throws, stance issues, etc. Looking back on it now, I wish I would have called them on it, but I felt that it might hurt my own game if I was concentrating on someone else's. For the record, the majority of amateurs don't know jack about the rules and those that do are often wrong.

You are talking about sanctioned tournament play right?

Because when I play casual rounds and break off branches, I consider that "course maintenance". :D


Cheater...
I also understand where you are coming from and because of this have "let things slide" because of the reputation one gets for calling rules violations.



Sorry, let me clarify.

I do "course maintenance" on my home course, not any where else. I am one of the few people here who clean up the course, trim branches, move baskets and repair teesigns. I apologize for the confusion, I am not going around the country tearing branches off trees at random, or to benefit my rounds.

i figured, i was just kidding, guess i should have clarified.

Can anyone find the non-rule in that last list "rules" Brad did not call?

Yes....

Hmm, it seems one could wrap their entire disc in duct tape and not be in violation, but if I wrote my name with my wife's nail polish on the disc it would.

Throwing a disc back to your caddy?

It was over 15 meters or whatever the distance needs to be.

I have been playing for almost 27 years and if I see a rules violation during casual play I will go to the player and tell them that during tournament play they will be called on that violation. During mini's if a player breaks a rule, but does not gain an obvious benefit, such as toeing a disk, I will tell them to watch for that potential violation. I will call an obvious broken rule that gains them an advantage. And for just letting people know the rules, I am sometimes called a rules [I'm a potty-mouth!]. Funny thing is, I can only remember making three calls during tournament play and one of them was on myself. I will say this, playing with Masters (open and advanced), you don't see as many rules viloations.

And as far as foot faults go, unless you release your drive way in front of the tee pad or your fairway lie, foot faults are really minor infractions, imo. Yes, rules are rules and they should be called, but most people won't but because it doesn't really affect play.


I could not disagree with you more on this one. The act of concentrating on your footing and ensuring that you hit your mark makes a huge difference in your throw. "It's only 1 foot on a 300 foot throw" is wrong. It's concentrating on your footwork to make a legal throw versus not paying attention to your feet whatsoever.

A fairway shot is not a frickin' tee shot.

I'm sorry, a fairway shot is not supposed to be a frickin' tee shot. In the world of PDGA tournament play, there is no difference between the two. It's the equivalent of letting ball golfers use a tee on every shot.

I got a warning for throwing my disc back to my bag to get it out of the way after marking it with a mini. The bag was only 5 ft away, so I wasn't sure if that should have been called or not. The guy who called it is a good friend anyway, and just messing around...so I'm more looking for clarification on this rule.

Yes....

Hmm, it seems one could wrap their entire disc in duct tape and not be in violation, but if I wrote my name with my wife's nail polish on the disc it would.



Wrong...
I don't know where you heard that but the only stickers/tape allowed on a disc are those from the manufacturer.

Because when I play casual rounds and break off branches, I consider that "course maintenance". :D



Around here you would be considered a HACK, and be SLAMMED for altering the course...Casual play or not. :p

Unless it is YOUR responsibilty for "maintaning" the course, leave it as it is.

Yes....

Hmm, it seems one could wrap their entire disc in duct tape and not be in violation, but if I wrote my name with my wife's nail polish on the disc it would.



Wrong...
I don't know where you heard that but the only stickers/tape allowed on a disc are those from the manufacturer.



"Detectible thickness" used to be the rule...not able to check if that is still the case at the moment....

Stickers on Discs are ILLEGAL by that standard, ie..those little stickers on "DISCRAP" that show the weight have to be removed prior to tournament play.......

But there sure are ALOT of them out there.

I remember back 10 years or so ago when there was a "Station" set up out on the course where an "Offical" had a "Scale". As each group came to the hole, He (The Offical) would randomly take a disc from the players bags and wiegh them to check legality :o

It was AMAZING how many discs marked at MAX wieght were actually OVER WIEGHT :eek:

Magilla and Junilla are both wrong. That's what comes from expounding on rules without actually reading the rules.

As far as throwing your disc to your bag/caddie, the rule states a throw of any distance toward a target. It can be argued that the bag is a target and anything more than placing the disc on/in the bag is a practice throw.

So what is the rule?

I read the rule, I don't see where a small sticker that does not alter the flight characteristics (or weight) of the disc is specifically disallowed ?

I think that most TDs would apply the part of the rule pertaining to paint of detectable thickness to stickers and disallow the disc, but that is an interpretation question. I would not risk the potential penalty.

Stickers applied by the manufacturer are not generally considered post production modifications, and removing it except through normal wear and tear could be considered a post production modification.

Yes....

Hmm, it seems one could wrap their entire disc in duct tape and not be in violation, but if I wrote my name with my wife's nail polish on the disc it would.



Wrong...
I don't know where you heard that but the only stickers/tape allowed on a disc are those from the manufacturer.



"Detectible thickness" used to be the rule...not able to check if that is still the case at the moment....

Stickers on Discs are ILLEGAL by that standard, ie..those little stickers on "DISCRAP" that show the weight have to be removed prior to tournament play.......

But there sure are ALOT of them out there.

I remember back 10 years or so ago when there was a "Station" set up out on the course where an "Offical" had a "Scale". As each group came to the hole, He (The Offical) would randomly take a disc from the players bags and wiegh them to check legality :o

It was AMAZING how many discs marked at MAX wieght were actually OVER WIEGHT :eek:



This has not changed. I weigh all my discs and they are always... let me repeat, always over the weight written on the disc. All those 175 grm drivers... they are all in at 175.3 to 177 grms with very few being in less than .5 grm over the weight written on the disc. BTW, this is not manufacturer specific, I haven't weighed too many Gateway discs but the ones I have weighed were over. I have weighed a lot of DC and Innova and they were all over...

Magilla and Junilla are both wrong. That's what comes from expounding on rules without actually reading the rules.



I suspect that Bruce is referring to that the rule actually reads that no post production modifications are allowed that affect the flight of the disc. On the other hand, wear and tear and some sanding are allowed. This begs the question: does a sticker change the flight of the disc?

Contrary to this the rules later state that you can't write on the disc with anything that has a detectible thickness (one might argue that nail polish of a certain thickness might affect the flight of the disc or that a sticker of detectible thickness might do the same /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif)

Too much hoopla over nothing, the disc rules have a purpose; they are in place to stop players from modifying a disc so as to gain a direct advantage. Most modifications are fine but if questioned have to be O.K.ed by the TD. A good TD will use the litmus test of modified flight in making a judgment. On the other hand, a strict interpretation is allowed.

Rather than worry about it... keep your modifications to a sharpie!

Yes....

Hmm, it seems one could wrap their entire disc in duct tape and not be in violation, but if I wrote my name with my wife's nail polish on the disc it would.



Wrong...
I don't know where you heard that but the only stickers/tape allowed on a disc are those from the manufacturer.



"Detectible thickness" used to be the rule...not able to check if that is still the case at the moment....

Stickers on Discs are ILLEGAL by that standard, ie..those little stickers on "DISCRAP" that show the weight have to be removed prior to tournament play.......

But there sure are ALOT of them out there.

I remember back 10 years or so ago when there was a "Station" set up out on the course where an "Offical" had a "Scale". As each group came to the hole, He (The Offical) would randomly take a disc from the players bags and wiegh them to check legality :o

It was AMAZING how many discs marked at MAX wieght were actually OVER WIEGHT :eek:



so you mean like those stickers innova puts on the bottom of their custom stamped discs? I get more of those than I do discraft discs with stickers on the bottom.

BTW - the rules are quite clear, any throw after the start of the round is either in play or a practice throw. The rules don't stipulate a distance so that 2 foot toss to your bag... it is a rules violation.

Again, this seems common sense, i.e. we all know what a practice throw is, but in reality any toss can be stroked.

803.00B A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C (3) or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.

I thought the disc had to travel over 2 meters to get a warning for a practice throw. However rule 803.00 B says
B. A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with any disc any time after the start of his or her round and prior to his or her finishing the last hole of the round (except for throws that must be re-thrown in accordance with the rules, provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C (3) or throws during a suspension or postponement of play) shall receive one penalty throw. The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official.



It kind of leaves it open for interpretation, or else it closes the door completely. Depends on how you look at it. There is a thread (http://www.pdga.com/msgboard/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=409344&page=3&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) that talks about practice throws...

I ammend my statement.... From the glossary:
Practice Throw: During a round, the projection of a disc of a distance greater than two meters, or of any distance toward a target, intentional or not, which does not change the player's lie, either because it did not occur from the teeing area or the lie, or because the player had already thrown competitively from the teeing area or the lie. Throws that are re-thrown in accordance with the rules are not practice throws. Provisional throws made pursuant to 803.00 C(3) are not practice throws. A player shall receive a penalty for practice throws in accordance with sections 803.00 B or 804.02 A (2).



So I wasn't off on the 2 meters comment as long as you are not aiming at a target.

The practice throw rule makes sense only if you also read the definition of Practice Throw in the Glossary. You might have to read the definition of Throw also. I forget.

Dave Dunipace has stated previously that "towards a target" refers specifically and only to a basket. It's the old "intent" thing, where people who were in the sport when the rules were first being written know about intent that isn't written into the language of the rules, thus making it impossible for anyone who wasn't around at that time to come to the same rulings that the old-timers will in identical circumstances.

Yikes! I missed that glossary definition too. Darn glossary.

And yet we all know Dave is incorrect. That is why absolutely no one practices their thirty foot putt against a tree while waiting on a back up hole. Or if they do we tell them, hey, you can't throw practice throws during a round.

It's the 5 foot putts (less than 2 meter) against a tree that he says are legal. :)

BTW - Rhett is correct on the foot-fault issue. He and I have gone around about this before so I went out and did the experiment. Hitting you mark changes your game. Yes, you can get good enough such that the impact is minimal, but getting good enough takes practice and all of that has an impact.

Cong once stated, "most broken, least called rule." He's correct. This rule, one that is much more important that people realize, gets butchered!

It's the 5 foot putts (less than 2 meter) against a tree that he says are legal. :)



What was that you said about intent! :D I agree, Dave is wrong. Even from 5 feet you can work into a groove before putting. It changes the playing field and gives the player an advantage.

I hate the notion that a toss to your bag from 7 feet is illegal but I would rather have the rule in place than not.

I hate the notion that a toss to your bag from 7 feet is illegal but I would rather have the rule in place than not.


I agree. The language is pretty simple the way it is, too. Let's juts go by the way the rule is written....

which brings us back on topic: if you call a practice throw on someone who throws their disc 15 feet back to their bag, you are a d!ck.

How about the 15' throw across the creek when there's no bridge nearby ?

How about the 15' throw across the creek when there's no bridge nearby ?



Did that once (back across a pond, last hole). When it landed I realized my idiocy and called it on myself.

How about if a caddy tosses a disc to the player and its a major? [He was down in the schule and I was up on an embankment. I got enough chigger bites the first day I caddied for him.]

You mean "...you're a dick...".


Now everyone thinks that I'm a dick for enforcing the rules of the English language over something as trivial and insignificant as the distinction between "your" and "you're". In the grand scheme of things, spelling on a message board ranks right up there with foot faults, right?

By the letter of the rules, the caddy is bound by the same rules as the player, and the player takes any penalties teh caddy earns.

By the spirit of the rules, only the player can gain any competitive advantage from a practice throw, so the caddy should be able to toss the disc without penalty.

How's that for a non-answer ?

Dave Dunipace has stated previously that "towards a target" refers specifically and only to a basket.



Well, its a good thing that Dave is on the rules committee.

I believe that Dave said that in the original discussions about that rule, target referred to a basket. I don't really understand why a throw of less than 2m would only count as a practice throw if it happens to be going toward a basket.

I've seen situations where someone not paying attention went to the wrong marker real close to the basket and putted. They could claim it wasn't a throw at all if throwing toward the basket less than 2m wasn't penalized as practice.

What if someone asks you about a friend of yours that just smoke a few bowls durring a tournament and wants you to be responsible for their actions , just because your an Official ? :confused: :eek: :(

I believe that Dave said that in the original discussions about that rule, target referred to a basket. I don't really understand why a throw of less than 2m would only count as a practice throw if it happens to be going toward a basket.


I recall him saying that it was to prevent someone from practicing short putts into the chains. Something about the noise being a distraction. I think.

It's the 5 foot putts (less than 2 meter) against a tree that he says are legal. :)


I agree, unless it's a distraction. :p But if it goes 5 feet and bounces-off 2 feet, that's too many feats.

Back to the topic, calling rules and being considered a jerk. This is one of the main reasons I play very few tournaments. When I started playing tourneys, I called the violations that I saw and usually, was seconded. Then people started getting rude and nasty about it. It made me feel very uncomfortable and complaints to the TD were not fruitful. The problem went away when I played up in the pro divisions. But I am not pro material and have neither the desire nor the time or talent to be professionally competitive. I enjoy playing tourneys here in VA because I like the courses and usually play with friends. But it is too much of a bummer to play with people that don't know the rules and get rude when you tell them they are breaking rules. So I simply stay away from the tourneys for the most part. Until this mindset changes, that's the way it's going to be. It will take much more than just me to make such a change. It needs to be an association-wide effort.

My favorite scenario is:

First round walking up to tee off someone drops the bomb... "by the way, anything from closer than 8 feet is a drop in." Or similar ilk. Immediately, someone else on the card correctly calls, all rules are in force.

What makes this so special is that the rules breaker is peeved and then spends the rest of the round mumbling and ruining the experience, not just for themselves, but for everyone else on the card. I've had this happen three times now for different rules each time.

I've also had someone walk up to me just before the round and start to light up. I'm more timid than most so I simply asked the guy to smoke somewhere where I couldn't see it. He looked offended so I told him, "if that is lit when the two minute warning comes I'm going to have to turn you in." That's when he really loved me.

The problem with this is it also affects your game. It is hard to start out a round with a confrontation and then have a good round. In fact, I never have. IMO these guys are the Richards. For selfish reasons they are willing to trash the rounds of every other person on their card.

I'm to the point where I would rather play Pro division, eat my lunch, but still be able to have a decent round. Correct me if I'm wrong but this stuff seems to fade the further up the divisional ladder you go.

IMO these guys are the Richards.



:confused:Should I be offended?

Lyle,
My HFDS metal tag showed up in yesterdays mail.
It looks great, thanks!

Richard

My favorite scenario is:

First round walking up to tee off someone drops the bomb... "by the way, anything from closer than 8 feet is a drop in." Or similar ilk. Immediately, someone else on the card correctly calls, all rules are in force.

What makes this so special is that the rules breaker is peeved and then spends the rest of the round mumbling and ruining the experience, not just for themselves, but for everyone else on the card. I've had this happen three times now for different rules each time.

* * *

I'm to the point where I would rather play Pro division, eat my lunch, but still be able to have a decent round. Correct me if I'm wrong but this stuff seems to fade the further up the divisional ladder you go.

Somebody did that in my group at Worlds last summer and also at the Bowling Green Am Champs.

I have seen no difference between pros and ams on this point, but I have only played in the pro division twice this year and both times it was a one-group division at a C-tier.

I'm fine with overlooking an occasional casual rules violation, like failing to mark a 10 inch putt, or failing to let the disc come to rest in the bottom of the basket on that putt, but I'm never agreeing on the first tee to a conspiracy to blow off the rules we don't like. And if someone were to call an opponent on something I had just overlooked, I'd have to second the call.

I've never played a tournament round but I am the "rule n4zi" when my friends & I play (mainly because I'm the only one that's actually read the rules)
If I see something they're doing wrong I say "you know....what you just did is breaking the rules" just as a friendly reminder.
I'm not thought of as a "d1ck" as, of course, I don't enforce it, but I want them to know.

I am also the "score n4zi" as I track EVERYONEs throws. I quickly got sick of the 4's that get called as 3's.
This leads to debate a lot more than the rule calls. Even though I knew what they threw on the hole I ask..... if they call it wrong I quickly point out they are wrong & point out their shots. This is a bit harder to do when the group gets larger than 5, but I still try. ( I'll track the people that commonly cheat)

Rules should always be inforced, espesially in tourneys. However it is redundant to try and penalize someone for their ignorance, like it was said previously, "most players have no idea what the rules really break down to.
This being said, if someone on you'r card is down more than a few strokes from the rest of the group and foot faults or breaks a branch, is it really nesesary to call them out on it? No its not. After the hole is finished pull them asside and educate them. Dont be an arsehole or a d!ck to someone just to prove you know more than they do!

This being said, if someone on you'r card is down more than a few strokes from the rest of the group and foot faults or breaks a branch, is it really nesesary to call them out on it? No its not.


I couldn't disagree more. What if that one stroke is the diefference between cashing or not? Oh, you might say, what kind of d!ck would want to keep this poor slob from cashing??? I'm thinking of the poor slob who is following the rules on another card who might cash instead of this guy! You just screwed that other guy!

It might be that other slob's first time ever cashing. And you screweed him out of it.

Maybe you aren't at the cash line but doing 'orrible. There might be somebody who has never finished anything other than DFL, and this might make the difference between finally finsihing NOT DFL.

Maybe there are other players who got to their tees on time who would make the cut if you made the call, or they would get shafted out of the cut (or into an elimination playoff) if you decide to be a nice guy and totally screw them over.

Or maybe you are on the last card, and the guy is waaayyyy DFL. One more stroke might be enough to put him 2.5 SDs off his rating and have the round not count. By being nice to this guy you just screwed his rating all up! :D

In any event, you should either call all the rules or not. If you only call the rules on people who are playing well.....well, then your're motivations for making calls might rightly be questioned.

Rhett you'r missing the point here.
It's not about money, its about discgolf, and until the sport is big enough to have an official on every card it is everyones job to educate, not take the role of td or official. And you cannot tell me that one foot fault or broken limb is going to make the difference in ones probability od finishing dfl, or last cash(the majority of the time). You ever heard of karma?

I think you're missing the point. :)

The statement was made (again) that if the guy is losing on the card, why pile it on him with rules violation? That statement implies that you would make the calls on him of he were playing well and was threatening to win. I say you should make the calls eiother way because you don't know what's happening on the other cards and you should assume that the other players *are* following the rules.

Call the rules or don't call the rules, but I think you should either do it or not regardless of score.

Rhett you'r missing the point here.
It's not about money, its about discgolf, and until the sport is big enough to have an official on every card it is everyones job to educate, not take the role of td or official. And you cannot tell me that one foot fault or broken limb is going to make the difference in ones probability od finishing dfl, or last cash(the majority of the time). You ever heard of karma?



Ever hear of the PDGA Rules of Play? Tournaments are not the place for kindess for those ignorant (innocently or not) of the rules. And it can make a difference often enough that it should be important, regardless of place of finish.

O.K maybe the score scenario was not the best example. It's obviously AM players that are disputing this, we all know **** well that [I'm a potty-mouth!] doesnt happen on the pro cards. AM's need to be educated by at least a warning for first fault, then if it happens again stroke them! In any other scenario you are being a d!ck for wanting stroke someone right off the bat for something that happens more times than not amongst more than a few players. There is a fine line, however being anal retentive is not going to educate any one in the process.

IMO these guys are the Richards.



:confused:Should I be offended?

Lyle,
My HFDS metal tag showed up in yesterdays mail.
It looks great, thanks!

Richard



A pox on me for a cad, those guys are clowns, Richards are definitly in the cool,

Rhett you'r missing the point here.
It's not about money, its about discgolf, and until the sport is big enough to have an official on every card it is everyones job to educate, not take the role of td or official. And you cannot tell me that one foot fault or broken limb is going to make the difference in ones probability od finishing dfl, or last cash(the majority of the time). You ever heard of karma?



Ever hear of the PDGA Rules of Play? Tournaments are not the place for kindess for those ignorant (innocently or not) of the rules. And it can make a difference often enough that it should be important, regardless of place of finish.


Until TD's start reading "Rules of play" in players meeting, you feel free to do so you;rself.

This being said, if someone on you'r card is down more than a few strokes from the rest of the group and foot faults or breaks a branch, is it really nesesary to call them out on it? No its not.


I couldn't disagree more. What if that one stroke is the diefference between cashing or not? Oh, you might say, what kind of d!ck would want to keep this poor slob from cashing??? I'm thinking of the poor slob who is following the rules on another card who might cash instead of this guy! You just screwed that other guy!

It might be that other slob's first time ever cashing. And you screweed him out of it.

Maybe you aren't at the cash line but doing 'orrible. There might be somebody who has never finished anything other than DFL, and this might make the difference between finally finsihing NOT DFL.

Maybe there are other players who got to their tees on time who would make the cut if you made the call, or they would get shafted out of the cut (or into an elimination playoff) if you decide to be a nice guy and totally screw them over.

Or maybe you are on the last card, and the guy is waaayyyy DFL. One more stroke might be enough to put him 2.5 SDs off his rating and have the round not count. By being nice to this guy you just screwed his rating all up! :D

In any event, you should either call all the rules or not. If you only call the rules on people who are playing well.....well, then your're motivations for making calls might rightly be questioned.



You go Rhett!

Take a look at the three guys who got banned last year. They did exactly this thing! They even felt they weren't going to cash - that is why they let their mistake go. The reality is that if you cheat and you affect the outcome and who cashes that is very serious! Only by the grace of the law do we get to play a sport that many feel is legalized gambling. That grace is dependent on fair play, period.

The main point that I think Rhett was trying to make is that all of the cards are competing against each other, and the rules of play is the only thing that makes it possible for players on different holes to have a fair playing field. If one card gets away with ignoring certain rules, the players on a card that doesn't get away with ignoring those rules suffers. There must be faith in the system that all rules will be called on all cards for there to be fair competition.

JW,

Rules need to be applied and enforced in the same manner to all competitors regardless of division, experience, knowledge or score.

If you're playing a casual practice round that's one thing, but.......

........If you're talking about a PDGA sanctioned event it is the responsibility of all players to know the rules, abide by the rules and enforce the rules to the best interpretation possible.

Having said all that, if I witness a very minor fairway footfault and no one else appears to see it, I usually privately warn the player of his incidental infraction. A foot fault has to be seconded and if I'm the only one who caught it (because the other players were not within viewing distance) a discreet courtesy warning is in order. If I see a player do something deliberate (like breaking branches) or unintentional but flagrant I won't hesitate to call it as that's my (our) responsibilty in order to preserve the sport's integrity.

It's obviously AM players that are disputing this, we all know **** well that [I'm a potty-mouth!] doesnt happen on the pro cards.


Okay, maybe this guy is just a troll, because we all know that juts because you are playing in a pro division it doens't mean that you know the rules! I guess this guy means that no one ever calls any of the multiple rules infractions that happen in the pro divisions.

Also, no one ever said to come hard and get in people's faces like d!ck when you make a call. It just so happens that in today's PDGA sanctioned events, you will be called a d!ck for making any rules call at all, no matter how nicely you do it.

I think as players and gentlemen we need to pay closer attention to each other's stances and when one person sees a footfault we need to second it immediately if in fact we saw it also.

If three people call an infraction it's harder to make the case someone is being a d!ck than if just one person calls it. No one wants to be "worked" and having head games played with them. If only one person is calling infractions sometimes it appears they are doing just that. If we back each other up in calling the rules, no one looks bad.

I had to tell a NorCal official/T.D. that I would rather he didn't smoke during the round because it's against the rules and I would be bound to turn him in. Because if I don't, then I too am breaking the rules. He said, "fine" and we played on no problem. That was the second time I had that conversation that day.

I have vowed to always second any call that I feel is a valid call. Even if it makes the last regular round at Worlds very uncomfortable.

Not enough people are willing to even make a call, so I won't be leaving anyone hanging that is willing to do it.

I couldn't agree more with what everyone has posted on this page(7). I and I'm sure everyone else have a better understanding of diff. scenarios in which it's best to call someone out.
Thanks guys, all is fair in debate. :) :cool:

Are you saying that you can't smoke? Or was it just a rule in that tournament? I haven't heard this one before

I assumed it was what the guy was smoking, but then seeing that the post was coming from NorCal, smoking is often banned in parks there because of the fire hazard, I've heard.

I didn't think I had to be specific. It was pot.

I'm gonna go ahead and rant.

I'm really freakin sick of people smoking pot and drinking during sanctioned events. I can totally understnad someone wanting to play disc golf and drink or smoke or whatever they want to do - JUST PLEASE DO IT ON YOUR OWN WATCH!!!

Rant off

Good rant.

I had to tell a NorCal official/T.D. that I would rather he didn't smoke during the round because it's against the rules and I would be bound to turn him in. Because if I don't, then I too am breaking the rules. He said, "fine" and we played on no problem. That was the second time I had that conversation that day.



when i played in NorCal at a tournament, there was no smoking rule because of the fire hazard. if anyone was caught, they were automatically DQ'd, as well as fined.
pretty harsh, but i would rather just not smoke then to see DeLA burnt to the ground.

Rules need to be enforced regardless. The aggravating part is people enforcing rules that do not understand the rules. Or forgetting that they are tournament rules.

My favorite example is when I was on the tee box and I took a few seconds to consider my throw. One of the self-proclaimed expert on my home course decides I'm taking to much time and starts counting down from 5. Of course, this affects my throw as I ended up rushing the shot: i didn't know the rule at the time, so I looked it up. The rule says the time limit is 30 sec, not the 8 or 9 that I actually took.

Another great rule interpretation occures when there were several of us playing. I noticed a lone player behind us and offered to let him join us or play through if he was on a time restraint. One of the people in the group declared that the rule states that we do not have to let him play through. I believe that would be for a tournament, not a casual round.

Knowing the rules is more than just useful, it allows you to tell that dude that he ought to read the rules, and hand him the copy of the PDGA Rulebook out of your bag for emphasis.

I love Harold Duvall's line for when someone breaks the rules: "I'm really sorry that you broke the rules and put me in a no choice position to make the call, I wish you hadn't."

Or something to that effect.

The answer to this threads subject is:"Because they are D!CKS." If you pause and hesitate, think about it, then make the call and then try to back track apologetically, then you are feeding into the idea that you really �ARE A D� for knowing and calling the rules.

Just call them. It isn't your fault they either didn't know them and broke them, or worse did know them and broke them. They should be thankful for your assistance. Good sports want to know the correct way to play and practice knowing and playing by the rules.

Furthermore, sometime, somewhere, even if you do your best to know and play by the rules you will likely break a rule or two. It doesn't make you a D to break them, it makes you a D if you handle being called incorrectly. So don't get angry at folks breaking the rules, LET THEM KNOW. It is all that can be asked of you.

I love Harold Duvall's line for when someone breaks the rules: "I'm really sorry that you broke the rules and put me in a no choice position to make the call, I wish you hadn't."



I work with a guy who is great at this. Basically, you have to stick to the line that they have put you in this awful position. As long as you are consistent they can't win. Sort of warped but affective.

If you are talking about calling Nash for taking longer than 30 seconds during the final round, all i wonder is why you didn't make the same call in the first round :confused:

Also, why haven't others called Zack at other tournaments long before it ever got to a chance at winning AM Nationals so he could adjust his game accordingly? No pun intended, but the timing was unfortunate...

Im glad you asked that question. I never made one single warning or call during Nationals. So whatever anyone heard or thinks they heard I did not call Nash on taking to much time on each of his shots (even though he tas in fact taking 30+ seconds on many if not all of his shots the 1st 2 rounds). So just to dispell that rumor. I did not tell him he was taking to long nor did I ask an official to follow our group during that round.

And to let you know the shot he was warned on (by someone not even following our group but part of tournament staff) it took him over 50 seconds if not a minute to execute.

-Rant On
I think taking too long just runs in that family...One time I was throwing a few holes for practice before a tounament, and Bo told me to hurry up as I was holing out and he was standing on the tee. Then when it came time for playing the tourn. during first round I was having to wait on nearly every hole for him, when I was in the group behind him. However, nobody in his group gave him a warning, even though he was holding up some of their shots too.
-Rant Off
Sorry, I just had to mention that.

Im glad you asked that question. I never made one single warning or call during Nationals. So whatever anyone heard or thinks they heard I did not call Nash on taking to much time on each of his shots (even though he tas in fact taking 30+ seconds on many if not all of his shots the 1st 2 rounds). So just to dispell that rumor. I did not tell him he was taking to long nor did I ask an official to follow our group during that round.

And to let you know the shot he was warned on (by someone not even following our group but part of tournament staff) it took him over 50 seconds if not a minute to execute.



I heard it was the camera guy who was filming the group...?

what i wonder is why noone mentioned it to him during the first round? did u consider it?

also, what was it you called someone on that led you to start this thread :confused:

btw, congratulations to you and Zack for some good rounds at Toboggan...

Scenerio
Lets say your 30 feet from the basket, and your in a bush. You first reach put your mini in front. You then go to one side, slide your leg in the bush and check out the legal stance you would be putting from and see your not sure about the putt. So you slide back out and try and see if you can get a better putt from the otherside of the bush. So you slide back in the bush from the otherside find out it's worse (maybe not). You decide to putt from the first akward stance. So you Climb out and climb back in and take 10 seconds to putt.

Obviously you just took longer than 30 seconds, I never seen anybody called on this though. Thoughts about this?
I agree with not calling on it because they are just checking out there shot choices.

According to the rumors I heard it was about Nashs time, and might not have even been by Steve, but by his caddie. This and other topics were floating around the place I stayed this weekend.

If someone is breaking rules and you call them on it, your not a d!ck. You may appear that way to people that dont know the rules or to people that play similar to those warned or stroked for breaking rules. Maybe even by friends of people involved. I feel like I have a good grasp of the rules, but hardly call them on people for what I see as trivial. I play in accordance of the rules, no matter what the cost to my score might be. I also try to first teach what the infraction might be, before I go overboard, aqnd start "coming over the top"
Obviously, If you feel your getting cheated and make a call that is right....you are right.

let's just say someone from Michigan called him on it :D

the real question is why wait till the third round of AM nationals and not in the first and second rounds during which Steve and Zack also together? or, why haven't people called Zack on it over the past few years? unfortunately for him, it wasn't until he was in good position on the last day of Am Nationals that someone mentioned it to him (which obviously had to get in his head). he did mention that he intends to revamp this aspect of his game, and he was very gracious beofre and during the Awards ceremony.

i'm not suggesting calling someone for taking more than 30 seconds was, or is, inappropriate. but given how seldom rules infractions are called, and given that Zack has played the same for years, why hasn't he been given this feedback long ago? technically i suppose calling him on it was the right thing to do...

I don't think I would ever call a 30 seconds violation on a single rough stance/decision instance like that, but if a player is consistently taking more than 30 seconds for unimpeded shots it and you are holding up other groups, the player should be warned and penalized.

If your card is waiting on every box or there is no card immediately following your card, I don't think I would call it either. I think it should follow more along the PGA version of the rule, and only apply once your card has been warned for slow play.

He hasn't always putted that slow, over the last year I would say he has gotten 10-13 seconds slower.

let's just say someone from Michigan called him on it :D

the real question is why wait till the third round of AM nationals and not in the first and second rounds during which Steve and Zack also together? or, why haven't people called Zack on it over the past few years? unfortunately for him, it wasn't until he was in good position on the last day of Am Nationals that someone mentioned it to him (which obviously had to get in his head). he did mention that he intends to revamp this aspect of his game, and he was very gracious beofre and during the Awards ceremony.

i'm not suggesting calling someone for taking more than 30 seconds was, or is, inappropriate. but given how seldom rules infractions are called, and given that Zack has played the same for years, why hasn't he been given this feedback long ago? technically i suppose calling him on it was the right thing to do...



The answer to that is exactly why I started this thread. No one has ever said anything to him because they were afraid someone would think they are a d!ck. So no one ever called him on it so he continued to do it. The real question is why he played like that in the first place. Knowing the rules and knowing that you get 30 seconds from the time its your turn to throw (baring valid distractions) why would you ever develope a style that you KNEW broke that rule. That is the real question here. Zach even said he KNEW he was slow but never did anything about it. Now why if you KNEW you were slow would you continue to be slow. Thats like knowing you suck at putting but never trying to get any better.

He hasn't always putted that slow, over the last year I would say he has gotten 10-13 seconds slower.



This is very true. This was the first time that I played with Nash and he took FOREVER on EVERY shot. I had played with him earlier in the year for 1 round and had played with him a few times last year and he never took as long as he was taking at USADGC.

He started slowing down, and he started playing better. That is why he didn't change it. It's not like he can time himself when he is putting. I'm not saying that an excuse, I'm just pointing out why It ended up like it did. He just needs to remember 2 things.

1 Throw Faster

2 That He Still Sucks :o

First Sanctioned Pro tournament this weekend for him, if it doesn't fill and block him out.

I wish him good luck and hope he doesnt take as long to throw as he did at USADGC cuz the pros will call it on him for sure.

I think im going to stay down in the AM ranks and hone my skills for another year :D

Don't Be Scared Now, We won't hurt you /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I aint scurred. I just didnt get to have the last am season I wanted this year because I had to buy a new truck.

So I figure ill do next year what I wanted to do this year then move up and go on tour in 07 :D

Ill prolly play a few pro NTs next year though and just deny :D

Some pros take forever to throw as well...it's not just the AMS.

Dude u won two A tiers, why the he!! would you stay advanced when you could be making cash money next year?

*coughs* George Smith *coughs*

I expect to see you in the pro ranks come no foolin. (95% of Ams don't have the seasons they hope for) (95% of all players don't have the season they hope for) Not doubting you, I just don't want you to waste your time in the AM ranks. Step up, bring your game and if you don't Cash before BG maybe play that as an AM. Good luck with the game and hope to see ya in my group some time, that is unless you bring that caddie along, he sucks :p

I heard something about George. He has issues with blacking out sometimes from Blood suger levels or something of the sort.

Dude u won two A tiers, why the he!! would you stay advanced when you could be making cash money next year?



Yeah I won 2 A Tiers and a C tier and didnt get to hit all the tournaments I was supposed to because I totalled my truck. I also didnt get to go to worlds either. Not that I wanted to play in Flagstaff but I would have liked to hit annother worlds and Tulsa sounds like it might be fun :D

I heard something about George. He has issues with blacking out sometimes from Blood suger levels or something of the sort.



Not to be mean but what does that have to do with taking forever to throw a disc???

I think he has trouble focusing on the basket. I got no idea for sure.

I've played on George's card a few times. He does take a little longer than most, but i wouldn't say that it's so long that he's breaking any rules.

I just ran across this post and had to write about what happened in our last disc golf league.

My daughter Nicole was 9 years old at the time (she is now 10). She has been trying different putting styles in order to increase her putting range (be able to make putts from further out). She is most accurate when she brings the disc back close to her body and putts straight from her body to the basket. However she has limited range with this style. Maybe because her arm is relatively short (compared to an adult), she doesn't get a big range of motion when she putts by bring the disc to her stomach and releasing straight to the basket.

So she started leaning way back on her left foot where only the heel of her right foot is touching the ground. Than she quickly shifts her weight forward to her right foot while putting. The added body momentum increased her putting range significantly. However she started having problems keeping her balance on her right foot. This meant that she sometimes foot faulted (she would lose her balance and her left foot would land past her lie after she released the disc). Since this was a new putting style for her, I didn't give her a hard time about this.

However one league night, we were on the same card as the league director. He gave her a courtesy warning after he saw her foot fault for a second time during the round. She then comes to a hole she has never pared. It is not a long hole (maybe 300 feet), but there is a street that runs along the right side of the fairway on this hole. Nicole's driver frequently ends up in the street on this hole, so now she throws her long approach disc off the tee (throws a leopard from a stand still position). She throws a medium approach (Pro Roc) with her second shot and ends up 12 feet past the hole. She than nails the put for her 1st par on this hole. However, the league director sees her foot fault and strokes her. She then tries the put again. She tries to keep her balance but still steps a little past her lie. So the league director strokes her again. Nicole did not say anything at the time, but she was very upset and her eyes were watery. Up to that point she was having a good round, making 3 or 4 on every hole. After the incident, she played the last 4 holes poorly.

I had mixed emotions on the situation. On one hand I felt bad for Nicole. She was having a good round and was having a great time up to that point. I tend to go easy on recreational women and junior girl players, because I want them to have a positive experience. The goal is to grow the number of female disc golfers and I would hate to lose players because of a negative experience. At tournaments I try to inform rec ladies of the rules, but I would have a very hard time warning one of them or giving them a stroke penalty. There are just too few female disc golfers to chance running any of them off.

On the other hand, Nicole�s situation was a little different. Nicole has been playing for a year already and has been competing in tournaments. So she really should be following all the rules. Also, it was the last day of league and she was tied for 1st place. If the lady that Nicole was tied with won the last round, the lady would win the division; if Nicole won the last round, Nicole would win the division. So the league director was probably trying to be fair to that lady by making sure Nicole followed all the rules. Even with the stroke penalties and the ensuing poor finish, Nicole won the last round by 6 or 7 strokes and therefore won the division. Nicole even had her best score ever on that course, beating her old personal best by 1 stroke.

Nicole played in a tournament three weeks ago. In three rounds, she did not foot fault even once. Therefore she learned her lesson. Although personally I would not penalize a rec women player or junior girl for something like this, I respect the league director�s decision to do so (in this specific case).

Thanks����.Rick

That's a good story, and a good point. Most players are not breaking the rules on purpose, they either don't know they are breaking the rules or haven't focused on playing by the rules.
Once they are informed, and put forth a little effort most find it is not a problem playing within the rules.

i think it also shows that it is better to call things all the time -- including in casual rounds -- so that when a player is playing in a big tournament on the last day it isn't *then* that they suddenly get called on it.

in both cases mentioned above i felt bad for the player, but only because the norm is for such stuff not to be called

Yea , I agree........................I told this guy to put away his bubbler pipe and he got all fired up. I told him , in a PDGA tournament , you might get DQ'd. He told me to fcuk off !!!!!!

Sound familiar to anyone ? :eek:

I tell those guys something along these lines. "You can hate me all you want since one you get turned in for that Ill never have to see you at another tournament again because youll be suspended from the PDGA" :eek:

:D Check this ..............I have been in a Foursome , for money , and I was the only one not smoking !!!!!! :eek:

Winner !!!!!! I actually came in third because I didn't say anything...................But my car is still intact !!!!! :eek: :D