What does a flat armature payout do for the sport? Why is the advanced field the catch all division for armature disc golfer? Shouldn't we use the other two armature division and leave the advanced division for people that are trying to turn pro? If the last division a disc golfer under 40 can play in is the advanced division why should they be punished if they are trying to get experience at large tournaments so that when they turn pro they will have a chance at the cash?

Problems with the Flat payout system:

1) It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.

2) It will take the competitive drive out of some advanced player since a 1-6 place finish of 1-4 stroke difference will result in a reduction or increase of 5-10 dollars in merchandise, which is the difference between a DX disc and a champion disc.

3) It has made the advanced division a catch all division for all armatures rated above 915 since they now have a place to cash since the system pays out around half of the field.

4) It is making the advanced field a stepping stone for the am2's in to the advanced field in stead of a stepping stone for advanced player in to the pro ranks. When the best advanced players are rated 960-980 and the best pros are rated at 1000-1040 and with this new system making the advanced division cater to 915-925 rated player so they don't go home saying that they didn't get any thing because they couldn't play with the top advanced player but they have to play advanced is hearting the division.

As I see it.

Ams play for fun.

Pros play for payout.

As I see it.

Ams play for fun.

Pros play for payout.




As I see it I beat 63 people and missed 1st by a stroke and only got 77 dollars. I drove an hour each way and played some pretty good golf (which you should be rewarded for) and a person who was 12 spots below me took hoME 60 dollars. I played way better then he did and only got about a disc more in payout. Thats highly unfair. This was also a PDGA sanctioned B Tier. I know all the C Tiers are advised to pay out 50 percent of the field but I won a C Tier with about 20 guys or so and still recieved 120 in payout and a trophy so I think these calculations were a little off :mad:

As I see it.

Ams play for fun.

Pros play for payout.




I agree. When Ams calculate value it shouldn't be in plastic, it should be in experience. Move up if you want a return on your "investment". /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Do away with payouts in the advanced division, lower entry fees, trophy only... You want more move up, I just think ams should get a players pack and thats about it :)

Not sure many think like I do but thats alright we all have our opinions

By flat payouts do you mean large player packs and not much payout? Or do you mean payouts that are fairly linear like 30, 28, 26, 24, 23, 21, 20, 18, 16, 14, where there is no bonus at the top and the progression is one or two bucks per place?

I mean 5 or 6 spots getting paid exactly the same then the next 5 or 6 then the next 5 or 6 untill the end. Last cash got 32 bucks. They paid out 32 in a 64 person field in advanced and first place got 105 and a trophy and I took 3rd and recieved 77 and a trophy.

As I see it.

Ams play for fun.

Pros play for payout.




I agree. When Ams calculate value it shouldn't be in plastic, it should be in experience. Move up if you want a return on your "investment". /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Trust me I plan on moving up!:( I just want to be able to cash win I do!

I guess I don't understand what you're saying about the flat payout and its impact on the ability of Advanced players to prepare for the Open divisions.

You're going about it the wrong way. What does getting a bigger payout as an AM have to do with cashing as a pro?-NOTHING. You should be worrying about experiences like making final 9's, great comebacks, holding down a wire-to-wire lead, par saves...etc.

Do away with payouts in the advanced division, lower entry fees, trophy only... You want more move up, I just think ams should get a players pack and thats about it :)

Not sure many think like I do but thats alright we all have our opinions


If all you get is a players pack and a trophy for the top three disc golfer what is going to make you play to the top of your potential if the best you going to place is fifth, or what if you have a bad hole or two will you keep playing?

I'm mainly talking about the liner payouts that only change by a few dollars per place.

If all you get is a players pack and a trophy for the top three disc golfer what is going to make you play to the top of your potential if the best you going to place is fifth, or what if you have a bad hole or two will you keep playing?



The fact that you're not a loser. Losers act like the situation you described above. People that will EVER have a chance of cashing in the Open divisions do not.

If all you get is a players pack and a trophy for the top three disc golfer what is going to make you play to the top of your potential if the best you going to place is fifth, or what if you have a bad hole or two will you keep playing?



You play for the love of the game, don't you? Or do you play to see what you can get?

Go play any other organized amateur sport, see what you get and then come back and discuss this issue.

just my opinion

At the top end of the advanced division, it makes the top Adv players want to move up because the reward for performing well is not there.

However, it makes it easier for people to cash in advanced, ie the players at 915-925.

I think the flat payout was designed to get the top advanced players into the Open division. Making it easier to cash in advanced was likely just a side effect.

While I like winning a lot of merch, I cannot fill my gas tank with a 175g Champion Orc. And Best Western will not accept Buzzz's as payment for hotel rooms. Untill I can cash in Open, tournaments will always be an expense for me, but a very fun expense.

You're going about it the wrong way. What does getting a bigger payout as an AM have to do with cashing as a pro?-NOTHING. You should be worrying about experiences like making final 9's, great comebacks, holding down a wire-to-wire lead, par saves...etc.


There aren't many final nines for Advanced on the east cost. I've played in ten tournament this year and 13 last year only one of them had a final nine for the advanced division and it was the 04 BG.

You're going about it the wrong way. What does getting a bigger payout as an AM have to do with cashing as a pro?-NOTHING. You should be worrying about experiences like making final 9's, great comebacks, holding down a wire-to-wire lead, par saves...etc.



I like wire to wire wins. They are my speciality:D

See all you Open players after USADGC :D

You play for the love of the game, don't you? Or do you play to see what you can get?

Go play any other organized amateur sport, see what you get and then come back and discuss this issue.

just my opinion



Ok. How about I go play amateur ball golf and get dinner and lunch paid for and some sore of players packs (usually) Then if I play well and maybe win I can get up to 700 dollars in gift certificates to spend at the pro shop where the tournament was held :D

I'd just say two things. The 2005 PDGA payout tables *are* flat. That's why Jon, Brett and I are not using them for advanced and intermediate.

Player packs suck a lot out of payouts. If 30 players pay 30 bucks to play Advanced, a C-tier TD has 900 to work with for his payout. A B-tier TD only has 600, maybe less if his player pack was bigger. At an A-tier the player pack sucks up half of a typical $50 entry fee.

I guess I don't understand what you're saying about the flat payout and its impact on the ability of Advanced players to prepare for the Open divisions.


When the difference between second and seventh is only a 5-10 dollars in the advanced field I don't see why advanced player will struggle to get that long putt or dig deep to pull back from a bad hole, while the difference of one stroke in the open field can be the difference in 100+ dollars. I think the flat payout will bread lazy golfers that play for their players pack and some of their entry because they finished half way up the pack.

I'd just say two things. The 2005 PDGA payout tables *are* flat. That's why Jon, Brett and I are not using them for advanced and intermediate.

Player packs suck a lot out of payouts. If 30 players pay 30 bucks to play Advanced, a C-tier TD has 900 to work with for his payout. A B-tier TD only has 600, maybe less if his player pack was bigger. At an A-tier the player pack sucks up half of a typical $50 entry fee.


Only if you charge retail which every tournament does.

When the difference between second and seventh is only a 5-10 dollars in the advanced field I don't see why advanced player will struggle to get that long putt or dig deep to pull back from a bad hole, while the difference of one stroke in the open field can be the difference in 100+ dollars. I think the flat payout will bread lazy golfers that play for their players pack and some of their entry because they finished half way up the pack.



If thats what you think then you play for the wrong reasons. Every time I play im trying to play to the best of my ability so that when I move up Im ready to compete with the big guys and make money in the Open division. Slacking in the advanced division is not going to do that for me. So if you and others want to slack off and not play to the best of your ability every time then go right ahead. I dont play for the payout, although I do like big payouts thats not why I play. I play to get better so I can move up and go on tour and play this sport for a living :D

If all you get is a players pack and a trophy for the top three disc golfer what is going to make you play to the top of your potential if the best you going to place is fifth, or what if you have a bad hole or two will you keep playing?



The fact that you're not a loser. Losers act like the situation you described above. People that will EVER have a chance of cashing in the Open divisions do not.


Trust me I want to win and I do every thing I can think of to make my game better in hopes of becoming a professional disc golfer but its a lot easier to see that goal if there is some thing in it for me like a stack of plastic in stead of a way to go. I want to shoot better but I don't see why my goal should be to bleed while I'm playing good in the advanced division so I can turn pro and bleed there as well.

I agree with most of your points, but



It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.




As an Am you aren't supposed to be "making" money. :)

Wow, I agree with Mills. :)

The lazy ones will stay in MA1, those that have the drive will move to MPO.

Left side number (position) is better than the right side number (payout), IMO.

show me the AM1 winner who needs 250$ worth of discs as a payout and I'm asking why he can win am1 if he's destroying that many discs. Heck, I just broke the 875 barier and I already have boxes and boxes of extra discs. Payout SHOULD NOT be the incentive for anyone to play tournaments.

Wow, I agree with Mills.



Me too!!!!

When MillZ wants to make money MillZ will move up to Open :D

I plan to make my Open Debut at USDGC :D

I agree with most of your points, but



It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.




As an Am you aren't supposed to be "making" money. :)


I just would like to break even.

show me the AM1 winner who needs 250$ worth of discs as a payout and I'm asking why he can win am1 if he's destroying that many discs. Heck, I just broke the 875 barier and I already have boxes and boxes of extra discs. Payout SHOULD NOT be the incentive for anyone to play tournaments.

what should it be?

When MillZ wants to make money MillZ will move up to Open :D

I plan to make my Open Debut at USDGC :D


Only if you win USADGC. :D

You play for the love of the game, don't you? Or do you play to see what you can get?

Go play any other organized amateur sport, see what you get and then come back and discuss this issue.

just my opinion



Ok. How about I go play amateur ball golf and get dinner and lunch paid for and some sore of players packs (usually) Then if I play well and maybe win I can get up to 700 dollars in gift certificates to spend at the pro shop where the tournament was held :D



And you paid how much to enter this???? If you get such a better deal, then why not go play ball golf??

If I charged Am players $150 to get in a tourney (regardless of the tier), I could pay out like that too. :D

Oh btw, can we get 10 million americans regularly playing disc golf too?? Now there's some money for you Am's. :D

I just would like to break even.



Then play MPO.

Play for competition, you vs. the course, the competitors, yourself.

If you can't afford losing money (or can't budget it out), stay home. Harsh, but even in MPO it's a calculated risk that usually doesn't pan out for out-of-towners.

Only if you win USADGC.



Or if I qualify in Warwick at the National Tour :D

Zach I hope you still dont think your going to beat me at Nationals :D

And you paid how much to enter this???? If you get such a better deal, then why not go play ball golf??

If I charged Am players $150 to get in a tourney (regardless of the tier), I could pay out like that too.

Oh btw, can we get 10 million americans regularly playing disc golf too?? Now there's some money for you Am's.



I dont care about am payouts really. I want the Open purses to be bigger cuz thats where I will be playing in the near future :D

I don't think it I know it!

You are forgeting about me Millz, see ya on hole 1 on sunday :D

show me the AM1 winner who needs 250$ worth of discs as a payout and I'm asking why he can win am1 if he's destroying that many discs. Heck, I just broke the 875 barier and I already have boxes and boxes of extra discs. Payout SHOULD NOT be the incentive for anyone to play tournaments.

Just a reminder to all you amateurs out there similarly situated: if you are willing to sell at the same prices as Innova and Discraft, I don't care whether I buy plastic from them or from you.

show me the AM1 winner who needs 250$ worth of discs as a payout and I'm asking why he can win am1 if he's destroying that many discs. Heck, I just broke the 875 barier and I already have boxes and boxes of extra discs. Payout SHOULD NOT be the incentive for anyone to play tournaments.

what should it be?



Znash:

I'm not saying this to be a smart aleck. Really, I'm not. But if you don't know the answer to that question, you've got a lot more problems than flat payout.

Tournaments are supposed to be fun. I play in the Open division, and I am not "living in the cash." HelI, I have to play my butt off to make my entry fee back most weekends. But it's still fun.

You play for the fun of playing with better golfers. You try and make that long putt not for the extra DX Roc you'll never throw, but to make the long putt. You come back strong after a couple of bad holes not because you want to make more bucks. You do it because it's more fun to play good golf than bad. You travel to expensive tournaments not for the huge payday you'll get, but for the experience of playing a huge tourney. It's fun, remember? When you first picked up a disc, was your first question, "Yeah, but what's in it for me?"

If you have to ask this question, and it bothers you this much, perhaps you should quit playing tournaments and put in overtime at work. Then you'll get that huge payout, but believe me, IT WON'T BE FUN.

I just would like to break even.



I've been playing for 13 years. The last 9 as a professional. I have yet to "break even" much less make money in this sport.

It can't be the "stuff" that makes you want to play in tournaments. It has to be something more.

show me the AM1 winner who needs 250$ worth of discs as a payout and I'm asking why he can win am1 if he's destroying that many discs. Heck, I just broke the 875 barier and I already have boxes and boxes of extra discs. Payout SHOULD NOT be the incentive for anyone to play tournaments.

Just a reminder to all you amateurs out there similarly situated: if you are willing to sell at the same prices as Innova and Discraft, I don't care whether I buy plastic from them or from you.


Wish I could sell to you but all my payouts have been flat so I only got %50 more than my entry fee in plastic.

Hey Brad. There are Tee times at Nationals which mean EVERYONE tees off on hole one so im positive I will see you there :D

Zach. Once you stop kidding yourself and giving yourself false confidence you may be able to improve your game :D

By the way. What did you shoot yesterday at the Gale Vaughn???

Sorry to say this but I'm a broke college student that has to break even just to survive, I can't put in over time because that would cut in to my studies. If I didn't like playing disc golf I wouldn't travel over five hours to play in a tournament. I would just go to a local course and play with all of the drunks.

Hey Brad. There are Tee times at Nationals which mean EVERYONE tees off on hole one so im positive I will see you there :D

Zach. Once you stop kidding yourself and giving yourself false confidence you may be able to improve your game :D

By the way. What did you shoot yesterday at the Gale Vaughn???

seventeen over par my first donation this year. I'm going to hate those rounds come next ratings update.

what if the open division had a flat payout?

Sorry to say this but I'm a broke college student that has to break even just to survive



Well, it sounds like these tournaments are just causing you heartache. Better stay home from the next few since they're costing so much money with no perceivable reward. Gosh, if hte payouts don't get better, I guess all the disc golfing college kids might starve.

seventeen over par my first donation this year. I'm going to hate those rounds come next ratings update.



Wow. Does that mean I beat you by 16 strokes :eek: Ill see you at Am Nationals. You might want to bring a caddie for this course :D I know Ill have one :D

I never said I was an English major, or that I take my time to check for typing errors.

seventeen over par my first donation this year. I'm going to hate those rounds come next ratings update.



Wow. Does that mean I beat you by 16 strokes :eek: Ill see you at Am Nationals. You might want to bring a caddie for this course :D I know Ill have one :D

Lets not talk about the Hambrick :D:o.

Lets not talk about the Hambrick :D:o



You mean the worst golf of my career (with other things on my mind) and still placed mid pack at a SuperTour. Oh well you cant win them all :D Do you plan on going to anymore A Tiers because I know you said you were going to win 2 A Tiers and Am Nationals this year. If those are your goals it looks like you might be playing another year in the Advanced division :eek: :D

The only A-tier that I plan on attending is the WVO after that I'll have to suck it up and try for nationals.

The only A-tier that I plan on attending is the WVO after that I'll have to suck it up and try for nationals.



Try being the key word :D

Try being the only word that should give you any hope.

Try being the only word that should give you any hope.



Zach, What has happend in EVERY tournament both of us has played this year with the exception of Hambrick???

Enough said. Maybe if you set your goals a little lower you wouldnt be making up excuses for why you cant attain them all the time :eek: :D

If you think an out of town other the Junilla has a shot at winning nats then your off your rocker.

What does a flat armature payout do for the sport? Why is the advanced field the catch all division for armature disc golfer? Shouldn't we use the other two armature division and leave the advanced division for people that are trying to turn pro? If the last division a disc golfer under 40 can play in is the advanced division why should they be punished if they are trying to get experience at large tournaments so that when they turn pro they will have a chance at the cash?

Problems with the Flat payout system:

1) It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.

2) It will take the competitive drive out of some advanced player since a 1-6 place finish of 1-4 stroke difference will result in a reduction or increase of 5-10 dollars in merchandise, which is the difference between a DX disc and a champion disc.

3) It has made the advanced division a catch all division for all armatures rated above 915 since they now have a place to cash since the system pays out around half of the field.

4) It is making the advanced field a stepping stone for the am2's in to the advanced field in stead of a stepping stone for advanced player in to the pro ranks. When the best advanced players are rated 960-980 and the best pros are rated at 1000-1040 and with this new system making the advanced division cater to 915-925 rated player so they don't go home saying that they didn't get any thing because they couldn't play with the top advanced player but they have to play advanced is hearting the division.



Quit b!tching, there are probably only a few pros that make money or break even once you consider travel expenses and entry fees. If you are playing disc golf because you want to make money you're an [I'm a potty-mouth!], especially playing in an amatuer division. ALL of the pros I know, touring or not, play because they love the game and the competition, NOT to support their financial needs. I strongly believe trophy only is the way to go for ams, the entry fees would be lower and there would never be a complaint about a crappy payout or a [I'm a potty-mouth!] players pack and would most likely elimante sandbagging.

I strongly believe trophy only is the way to go for ams, the entry fees would be lower and there would never be a complaint about a crappy payout or a "lousy" players pack and would most likely elimante sandbagging.



WORD!!! :D

What does a flat armature payout do for the sport? Why is the advanced field the catch all division for armature disc golfer? Shouldn't we use the other two armature division and leave the advanced division for people that are trying to turn pro? If the last division a disc golfer under 40 can play in is the advanced division why should they be punished if they are trying to get experience at large tournaments so that when they turn pro they will have a chance at the cash?

Problems with the Flat payout system:

1) It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.

2) It will take the competitive drive out of some advanced player since a 1-6 place finish of 1-4 stroke difference will result in a reduction or increase of 5-10 dollars in merchandise, which is the difference between a DX disc and a champion disc.

3) It has made the advanced division a catch all division for all armatures rated above 915 since they now have a place to cash since the system pays out around half of the field.

4) It is making the advanced field a stepping stone for the am2's in to the advanced field in stead of a stepping stone for advanced player in to the pro ranks. When the best advanced players are rated 960-980 and the best pros are rated at 1000-1040 and with this new system making the advanced division cater to 915-925 rated player so they don't go home saying that they didn't get any thing because they couldn't play with the top advanced player but they have to play advanced is hearting the division.



Quit b!tching, there are probably only a few pros that make money or break even once you consider travel expenses and entry fees. If you are playing disc golf because you want to make money you're an [I'm a potty-mouth!], especially playing in an amatuer division. ALL of the pros I know, touring or not, play because they love the game and the competition, NOT to support their financial needs. I strongly believe trophy only is the way to go for ams, the entry fees would be lower and there would never be a complaint about a crappy payout or a [I'm a potty-mouth!] players pack and would most likely elimante sandbagging.



OK .............so here it is...............in some states.

Take ALL the Am's money and Give it to the Pro's.

If you want Money , Play Pro..........PERIOD.

Am's are Lucky , Lucky to get crappy disc's as prizes.

WHY..............

To discourage them from continuing to play Am's.

You have a Putter , a Mid-Range and a Decent Driver.

Play Pro !!!!!!!!!!!

Playing Am's is for Newbee's or Beginers. Not Whiners. :(

Get over it !!!! Either Grow or Shut up !!!!! I'm getting really tired of Am's complaining.

I hear enough of Pros complaining !!!!!!! :eek:

What does a flat armature payout do for the sport? Why is the advanced field the catch all division for armature disc golfer? Shouldn't we use the other two armature division and leave the advanced division for people that are trying to turn pro? If the last division a disc golfer under 40 can play in is the advanced division why should they be punished if they are trying to get experience at large tournaments so that when they turn pro they will have a chance at the cash?

Problems with the Flat payout system:

1) It doesn't pay to travel over 3-4 hours to play in a tournament because even if you win the tournament you will be losing money on the trip.

2) It will take the competitive drive out of some advanced player since a 1-6 place finish of 1-4 stroke difference will result in a reduction or increase of 5-10 dollars in merchandise, which is the difference between a DX disc and a champion disc.

3) It has made the advanced division a catch all division for all armatures rated above 915 since they now have a place to cash since the system pays out around half of the field.

4) It is making the advanced field a stepping stone for the am2's in to the advanced field in stead of a stepping stone for advanced player in to the pro ranks. When the best advanced players are rated 960-980 and the best pros are rated at 1000-1040 and with this new system making the advanced division cater to 915-925 rated player so they don't go home saying that they didn't get any thing because they couldn't play with the top advanced player but they have to play advanced is hearting the division.



Quit b!tching, there are probably only a few pros that make money or break even once you consider travel expenses and entry fees. If you are playing disc golf because you want to make money you're an [I'm a potty-mouth!], especially playing in an amatuer division. ALL of the pros I know, touring or not, play because they love the game and the competition, NOT to support their financial needs. I strongly believe trophy only is the way to go for ams, the entry fees would be lower and there would never be a complaint about a crappy payout or a [I'm a potty-mouth!] players pack and would most likely elimante sandbagging.



OK .............so here it is...............in some states.

Take ALL the Am's money and Give it to the Pro's.

If you want Money , Play Pro..........PERIOD.

Am's are Lucky , Lucky to get crappy disc's as prizes.

WHY..............

To discourage them from continuing to play Am's.

You have a Putter , a Mid-Range and a Decent Driver.

Play Pro !!!!!!!!!!!

Playing Am's is for Newbee's or Beginers. Not Whiners. :(

Get over it !!!! Either Grow or Shut up !!!!! I'm getting really tired of Am's complaining.

I hear enough of Pros complaining !!!!!!! :eek:



Wow....that seemed pretty negative....

I think that was the point.

Here's the ideal solution for amateur competitions...

Low entry fee, trophy-only, with a modest player package (retail value being equal to or greater than the entry fee). All sponsor donations and/or left over entry fees can go into ancillary contests such as CTPs, longest drives, etc.

If there are any players looking to make up their travel expenses or "break even" or even profit at the event, the players can organize an unofficial voluntary side-bet pool (or multiple pools...just bet with your buddies if you want). Only those who want in will get in (no unwilling donators or crying about being sandbagged).

Then you pay out, in cash, to the top-third of side-bet entrants...or even just to the side-bet participants who finish in the overall top-third. This way, all the folks that might otherwise win a stack of discs win a wad of cash instead (which is accepted in more places than a DX Shark), and it's unofficial so there's no issue with the PDGA and am status. All problems solved, don't you think?

And for those who want bigger payouts, augmented by sponsors and added cash, without the hassle of organizing the money yourself, you play pro...simple as that.

I have seen this done in amateur divisions, as well as in pro divisions at charity events where the purse isn't very large. It may not be hundreds of dollars, but it should go a lot further toward covering expenses than a couple D-Cyclones.

--Josh

-I like the idea of the side bets, unless there is a bagger in your division, then who's going to put money into the pot?
-If you're already putting in $35-$50 for entry fees, another $10 or $20 is quite a bit more for a lot of people, especially if you're traveling. But I still like the idea, Adv divisions would probably get more people in than Int.
-I agree that Ams should get a trophy...+ a disc for 1st, a disc for 2nd and 3rd. But not a whole stack down to 6th or 10th place. I've got a stack of plastic, most of it is actually pretty good, from the last few tournaments I've played. The other day I heard that The Wright Life in Ft. Collins pays $7 store credit for new champion plastic, $3-$5 for other new and used stuff so I'll be getting a new bag and a few discs that I will actually throw! I've rarely been too excited about winning 5 or 6 disc, and end up throwing one, but now I'm glad I did.
-I also like using the donated sponsor prizes being used for other 'fun' games, and have a lot of them, several CTP's, several Ring of Fire, longest birdie, longest drive. That way everyone has a pretty equal shot at winning something. It would also keep more people around while the TD gets the scores together, and they might even stick around for the awards.
-The lower the entry fee, the more players. Our non-sanctioned, low entry fee tournaments bring out all kinds of players that don't otherwise come out for tournaments.
-Yes, modest players package, maybe reward signing up early by offering a little something extra. The last B-Tier I played I payed $45 and got an awesome shirt (even though in 1 1/2 years of tournaments I have enough dg shirts to last forever), 1 disc-a choice of tourney stamped Z plastic and a really cool tourney stamped patch. It's great but I think a little too much, unless most of the players are coming to get that cool players package.---Which brings me to another point..I've got so many dg t-shirts and a bunch of stamped discs. The most original players pack I've seen is a tourney stamped mouse pad and 1 is enough. I'm fine with discs I use (ie I get to pick) but enough with the shirts,
-What are some other cool things you've seen in players packages?

-mikew

-I like the idea of the side bets, unless there is a bagger in your division, then who's going to put money into the pot?


That's the beauty of side-bets, you don't have to let the "bagger" in. Or...those that don't want to bet with him or the other top guns can bet amongst themselves. Bets can even cross divisions if you want. There really is no need to keep it divisional, especially when you have a situation like you describe where there's one guy who no one in his division wants to bet with. He could solicite the pros for side-bets if he really wanted to gamble.


-If you're already putting in $35-$50 for entry fees, another $10 or $20 is quite a bit more for a lot of people, especially if you're traveling. But I still like the idea, Adv divisions would probably get more people in than Int.


Entry fees should never be that high in these events. For a $15-20 fee, each player should be able to get a decent player package (a candy plastic disc or t-shirt or something else unique to the tourney), have all applicable fees covered, and leave the TD a couple bucks to use for CTPs, ace pot, trophies and other fun stuff. If you leave the players pack out, you could drop the entry even more and just have it cover fees and trophy costs (say $10).

The low entry should allow for most to side-bet if they so choose. The thing to keep in mind is that side-bets can come in all shapes and sizes. The most frequent style of side bets I've seen is one in which everyone kicks in $X per round (depending on how many rounds in the event, it can range from $1 to $5) and $5 for the overall score. So for a 2-round event, you have 3 pay-outs (round 1, round 2, total score). For a 2-day, 4-round event, you have 5-6 different payouts (depending on if you want to pay the best total Saturday score or not). The individual payout amounts may not be much but if you have just one hot round, it might net you enough to cover your bets and a good day will cover more than that.


-The lower the entry fee, the more players. Our non-sanctioned, low entry fee tournaments bring out all kinds of players that don't otherwise come out for tournaments.


All that tells me is that low-cost sanctioned events could be just as popular as those non-sanctioned ones.

We run all our events up here as low-entry, trophy-only for the ams and we get good turnouts and no complaints. At our recent B-tier, a $30 entry netted everyone a disc bag, a tourney-stamped Z-disc of their choice, a gift certificate to Marshall Street's online store, and a bunch of snack foods and other goodies (easily $40 in value). There were also CTP prizes for each division valued at over $80 each, and 18 MSDGC DVDs as CTP prizes as well. We had 66 amateurs across 5 divisions and zero complaints about cost or payout. It can work.

--Josh

The other day I heard that The Wright Life in Ft. Collins pays $7 store credit for new champion plastic, $3-$5 for other new and used stuff so I'll be getting a new bag and a few discs that I will actually throw!

Dude, you got me on ignore? Just a few posts back I said I'd pay you cash and you're getting excited about store credit?

When the difference between second and seventh is only a 5-10 dollars in the advanced field I don't see why advanced player will struggle to get that long putt or dig deep to pull back from a bad hole, while the difference of one stroke in the open field can be the difference in 100+ dollars. I think the flat payout will bread lazy golfers that play for their players pack and some of their entry because they finished half way up the pack.



if a player isn't motivated to sink a long putt, come back from a poor start, or get out of trouble unless there is some money or prizes on the line then they don't really love disc golf in the first place -- what they love is $ and prizes.

If am. entry fees were limited to a player's pack and a trophy for first, tournaments could still un load disc golf merchandise at retail, but those interested in earning material riches for their performance would have to play pro or keep practicing...

or, maybe we should call advanced "semi-pro" and quit pretending it is an amateur division...? :confused:

my two cents

This is not a reply to robj but a reply to everyone who thinks that there is a problem that needs a solution.

Solution: Play tournaments that offer formats you like. If there are none where you live, run tournaments that offer formats you like.

Nash, you are not going to get anywhere discussing a flat/poor payout on this board. If you do all you get is some mid level pros telling you to play open because they want your money. Or you will get some high and mighty ams that tell you that you don't love the game enough. Then you have the trophy only guys; most of whom are open players that don't realize that with trophy only am divisions they cannot filter money back to the open payout.

I agree that a flat or poor payout is disappointing, especially when you give everything that you got for four rounds only to see a few (mostly open players) take home more plastic for a ctp or ring of fire than you get for top 5 in advanced. :confused:

How about am divisions trophy and maybe a disc, and offer a couple of stritct rating limited pro divisions. Am devisions could win a trophy and a disc for top 3 spots, then the next however many could also win a disc. Tourney stamped DX plastic could work well here.

On top of that, split the current pro field into 3 fields: one 915 limited (PRO3), one 965 limited (PRO2), then the current open (PRO1).

No low end limit on the divisions. Use the current flat payout structures with cash in those divisions. I'd definately rather play in a pro 915 limited field for cash, even with a higher entry fee, than an AM 915 limited field for prizes, with the current entry fees. Then the only reasons to play in the AM divisions is to gain tourney experience and ready you for real competition. You might get people who donate in the PRO2 field and tank rounds when their rating gets too high to try to get back down to PRO3, win a couple tourneys, then they're back in PRO2.

I heard pro2 failed, maybe the risk vs. reward for pro2 wasn't good enough and players would rather bag and win plastic than play open and lose. Disc golfers (should) all think in risk vs. reward because that comes up so often on the course.

or, maybe we should call advanced "semi-pro" and quit pretending it is an amateur division...? :confused:



I think that these top Advanced players are afraid to move up, is not only linked to the butt load of plastic and baskets they recieve for winning, but it has to do to the fact that these are the guys traveling on the Super Tour Circuit. They see first hand how Barry, Kenny, Steve R., Brian S., and all the other top pros play and realized that they(the ams) are 5-7 strokes behind them each round, and would have no chance of winning like they are used to in the Advanced division.

But think about this. If all these guys played Open, it would make the payout deeper and better in the open division, and therefore they would have a chance to cash, and likely earn their entry back. (Of course I always think that the last cashing pro position should at least earn their entry back).

On a second note, I do not have a problem with people like Pimp and Znash and others I may miss, who are debateably some of the top ams in the nation playing advanced right now. Because they have openly talked about their desire to move up and have even set time lines. My problem is with the career Am's, who are just greedy little pansies.

Josh how many of those 66 players where from out of town?

or, maybe we should call advanced "semi-pro" and quit pretending it is an amateur division...? :confused:




It is the last division that a disc golfer under the age of fourty can play before they turn, why don't we call it what it is a semi-pro divition?

Nash, you are not going to get anywhere discussing a flat/poor payout on this board. If you do all you get is some mid level pros telling you to play open because they want your money. Or you will get some high and mighty ams that tell you that you don't love the game enough. Then you have the trophy only guys; most of whom are open players that don't realize that with trophy only am divisions they cannot filter money back to the open payout.

I agree that a flat or poor payout is disappointing, especially when you give everything that you got for four rounds only to see a few (mostly open players) take home more plastic for a ctp or ring of fire than you get for top 5 in advanced. :confused:



It's not just about what I get for a top five finish it's about giving players a reason to play good golf beside a love for the sport. there are a lot of people that love the sport but don't play because there isn't any thing in it for them especially 955 rated pros that can't compete like they once did in the advanced division before they where called a bagger and had to move up before they where ready to play in the pro division.

Josh how many of those 66 players were from out of town?


Good question Zach. 39 (60%) came from more than 1.5 hours away. Of those 39, I'd say 15-17 of those travelled at least 3 hours to get to the event. So there were 27 that traveled less than 1.5 hours. Maybe half of those 27 could be considered "local" to the course and they were mostly in MA2 and MA3. All but four of the 25-person MA1 field were "travelling" players.

IMO, the demographics of this event weren't any different than any other comparable B-tier event: a fair share of both travelling players and locals. I have no doubt that this style of event could have success anywhere.

--Josh

It sounds like trophy only works in your area, but it hasn't been tried within 3 hours of me so I don't know that much about it. How where the scores and ratings for the tournament?

It's not just about what I get for a top five finish it's about giving players a reason to play good golf beside a love for the sport. there are a lot of people that love the sport but don't play because there isn't any thing in it for them especially 955 rated pros that can't compete like they once did in the advanced division before they where called a bagger and had to move up before they where ready to play in the pro division.



So winning a bunch of crappy plastic is going to make players play good golf? I don't think so. When I played advanced it was never the prizes that made me play good (when I did play well), its about beating the competition, making friends and learning new things. If you are playing because you want to cover travel expenses and what not, start practicing everyday and move up, even then you will still be losing money (I don't know you but maybe you are good enough to beat 1000 rated players regularly). Until you start playing Open, quit complaining about how you only got 1 more disc than the person who finished 1 stroke behind you and how your prizes are not enough to cover travel expenses. Just be grateful that someone has taken the time and effort to organize an event with pretty much no compensation.

It sounds like trophy only works in your area, but it hasn't been tried within 3 hours of me so I don't know that much about it. How where the scores and ratings for the tournament?



Here are the results (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/tournament_results.php?TournID=5030) so you can judge for yourself.

--Josh

Was there a different layout for the second round, and did the pros play a different layout?

Same layout for both rounds and all divisions.

--Josh

I looks like some of your player did give up especially the ones at the bottom of the field that knew after the first round that they where not going to get any thing more out of the tournament besides playing in it and the love of the game. It looks like most of the players that finished worst than seventh played a few strokes worse during the second round.

Maybe trouphy only gets people to show up but it doesn't look like it gets them to play.

It's not just about what I get for a top five finish it's about giving players a reason to play good golf beside a love for the sport. there are a lot of people that love the sport but don't play because there isn't any thing in it for them especially 955 rated pros that can't compete like they once did in the advanced division before they where called a bagger and had to move up before they where ready to play in the pro division.



So winning a bunch of crappy plastic is going to make players play good golf? I don't think so. When I played advanced it was never the prizes that made me play good (when I did play well), its about beating the competition, making friends and learning new things. If you are playing because you want to cover travel expenses and what not, start practicing everyday and move up, even then you will still be losing money (I don't know you but maybe you are good enough to beat 1000 rated players regularly). Until you start playing Open, quit complaining about how you only got 1 more disc than the person who finished 1 stroke behind you and how your prizes are not enough to cover travel expenses. Just be grateful that someone has taken the time and effort to organize an event with pretty much no compensation.


When did you play open?

When did you play open?


For the past couple years. Look it up if you want to know the exact dates. My name and PDGA# are on my profile if that helps.

As far as I can tell you played the Virginia Open and that's it. It looks like the PDGA has taken down the links to the other years.

Something needs to be done! I'm not sure flat payout is the way but until someone can come up with a better idea, lets try it.!

The problem I see is players will not move up! I see and hear it all the time. I played in a tournament and after checking out some of the players the guy who won had several 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place finishes in the same year. But his rating was so far behind and he hide behind it saying my rating shows me as an AMII and I'm not moving up till I have too!

I could play in the Rec Divison with my current rating, but what challenge would that be? I 've always said if I got a couple top 5 finishes that I would move up.. So now with a 1st & 3rd finish recently. I'm moving up to Adv and will get my butt kicked for a while! And will be forced to work hard to get the "D" & the game, I'll need to play with the big boys... I'm not waiting till I can cash in Adv to move up. I'm trying to let others have their shot in AMII..

It's not about what "Disc Golf" can do for me! It's what I can do for Disc Golf! (Promote it!)

Suck it up! Move up! Take your beat'n like a man/women! And climb your way up, just like the beginners do!

Play to have fun and get better, and the rewards will mean more!

Spread good karma! Receive good karma!

The Disc Golf Gods are watching you!

This seams to be one of the biggest problems in disc golf people move up to soon and get their butts handed to them by the people that should be playing in that division so they call them baggers because they can't beat them on the course so they most be good enough to play in a higher division. My advice is to play where you should play based on your rating not on where you think you should play, if more people did this then there would be less complaints about people bagging because they would be in the right division and not in a division that they have no chance at the cash.

As far as I can tell you played the Virginia Open and that's it. It looks like the PDGA has taken down the links to the other years.



What are you getting at? I'm not gonna list all the tournaments I've played in the Open division, I can assure you that its more than you have played if thats what you are trying to figure out.

I'm not tring to make a point, and yes you have played in more open tournaments than I have and good for you I'm glad you have a good enough job that lets you give your money away.

So the answers to my questions are:


What does a flat armature payout do for the sport? <font color="blue"> I don't care move up or get out.</font>
Why is the advanced field the catch all division for armature disc golfer? <font color="blue"> Because I think I should play in the division so why not. </font>
Shouldn't we use the other two armature division and leave the advanced division for people that are trying to turn pro? <font color="blue"> If your trying to turn pro then you should be playing pro and not advanced stu<font color="blue">pid</font> </font>
If the last division a disc golfer under 40 can play in is the advanced division why should they be punished if they are trying to get experience at large tournaments so that when they turn pro they will have a chance at the cash? <font color="blue"> Because their armature players and how cares about them, if they want to be pro then they should shut the [I'm a potty-mouth!] up and play pro. </font>

I think that pretty much covered it :D

Yes that's right.

This seams to be one of the biggest problems in disc golf people move up to soon and get their butts handed to them by the people that should be playing in that division so they call them baggers because they can't beat them on the course so they most be good enough to play in a higher division. My advice is to play where you should play based on your rating not on where you think you should play, if more people did this then there would be less complaints about people bagging because they would be in the right division and not in a division that they have no chance at the cash.



Play in whatever division you want to, don't let other people influence you on what division you play in, move up when you want, just quit the b!tching and crying.

And ams should not be playing for big prizes and/or cash, this is what creates sandbagging, offering $400 baskets, stacks of 15-20 discs, cash skins for ams is great for having a huge advanced field but not for growing the pro divisions which seem to be pretty small compared to advanced (in my area).

I'm not tring to make a point, and yes you have played in more open tournaments than I have and good for you I'm glad you have a good enough job that lets you give your money away.



Sorry you think that if you don't win cash or plastic you are giving money away. Having fun is far more important to me than winning, thats why I started playing tournaments.

Flat payouts and devalued ratings for amateurs is part of the PDGA conspiracy to keep amateurs in their place. Deal with it. The man is keeping you down.

The PDGA requiring a players package for ALL am's is killing the payout at all tournaments. (except C-tier)

On one hand, everyone is guaranteed something, on the other hand, even with a payout of the top 40% of the field, the payout is not all that great.

I played Advance for 8 years (and then again for 2 tournaments this year) I liked gettitng either a tournament t-shirt of tournament disc as part of my entry fee, but I did not like the fact it pulled away from the payout.

On top of this, I played Advance in the days of only paying out the top 30% and very heavy top end.

I started running tournaments because payouts were hurting, I remember my firt tournament I ran gave 1st place Adv 46 discs (of course this was 1997 and all you had was d and dx plastic) I payed out at $6 per disc back in those days.

Well times have changed. I have changed. Some changes are because of economics of the gave have changed.

________________________________________________

Too keep from rambling further, here is my point.

If you are at the point that you are complaining about the payout, it is time to move up.

If you are to the point that just placing is not good enough, you have to get 1st (or even just top 4) it is time to move up.

That is when I realized it was time to move up. When I went to a tournament expecting to at least get top 4 or I was [I'm a potty-mouth!], I knew I had to move up.

Now days, I am happy just to win my entry fee back :D

If you are to the point that just placing is not good enough, you have to get 1st (or even just top 4) it is time to move up.



What time is it if you drive like crap miss 8 20 foot putts and still only miss 1st by 1 stroke in a 64 person field in MI???

I've really enjoyed this thread. I too in caught in the middle area. Go pro or not go pro. It's a tough decision. Flat payouts or not, chose the events you like to play. I know there are a bunch of events that I will play if I turn pro because I know those td's take Am $ & give it to the pros. There are some TD's that pay fat to the Ams & some in-between. It is your choice of what you do. Don't listen to the pros. They'll call you a bagger and tell you how great you are until you are sucked in & stuck. All they want is your money.

As an advanced player it does suck when you don't get jack when you are paying $40.00 to $50.00 for an entry fee, get a sticker & mini for a player pack, then win a few discs. Just let me play for a tropy if you are going to rape me.

I called Gary Lewis in June. For those of you who do not know Gary he's in the Hall of Fame & one of the most respected disc golf figures in IL. He told me to keep playing advanced. He said he has seen way to many good disc golfers quit the game because they were not ready to play open & don't have the $ to continue to play thru the rough times.

Well, a few more months until the USADGC then i'll try the open ranks. We'll see what happens.

if your throwing an orc it should go in the water .. throw a teebird!



All I am waiting for is Am Nationals and a couple more SuperTours. I plan on making my pro debut at USDGC and Players cup and if I save enough money Ill be going on tour in 2006.

As of August 1st I will be accepting applications for touring partners. So if you are interested in going on tour in 2006 (or just jumping in for a mini tour) PM me your application and I will get back to you :D

Thanks and have a wonderful day :D

Well, a few more months until the USADGC then i'll try the open ranks. We'll see what happens.



Quoting Damon Short: "You go, girl!" :D

Znash,

I have NEVER played for the cash, I have always played for the joy of competing and personal pride and satisfaction. I moved to Open Master this year knowing I was probably going to get my butt handed to me, since I do not get much practice time. I play for that ONE good tournament where it all comes together, and I play to my potential.

I once was a starving student, low on cash. I supplemented my income by delivering papers and donating plasma...

Make it happen. ;)

I once was a starving student, low on cash. I supplemented my income by delivering papers and donating plasma...



I hear that plasma thing is quite profitable if you go as much as they will let you. My friends in college do it all the time :D

Been there, did that. :o

It was possible to make $100 a month doing that [8 visits], 25 years ago...I have no idea what it pays now; that place is gone. But I still have twin scars from the needles...those things are the size of bicycle spokes. :eek:

It was possible to make $100 a month doing that [8 visits], 25 years ago...I have no idea what it pays now; that place is gone. But I still have twin scars from the needles...those things are the size of bicycle spokes.




I heard it was 40 or 50 bucks a session now :D Maybe ill just do that while im on tour if I dont have any money :D

It was possible to make $100 a month doing that [8 visits], 25 years ago...I have no idea what it pays now; that place is gone. But I still have twin scars from the needles...those things are the size of bicycle spokes.




I heard it was 40 or 50 bucks a session now :D Maybe ill just do that while im on tour if I dont have any money :D



Just don't do it right before you play DG. I tried walking the 1 mile home after I donated once in college. I about got lost and passed out. Of course driving isn't the best idea either. Just make sure they can take it out of your left arm, since you throw right handed.

Donating plasma can buy you a lot of Ramen Noodles and Coors light per month. How else would I have survived my junior year?

I used to go right from the plasma center, and go directly to wednesday night doubles and hand in my entry fee with my blood spotted gauze strip still affixed to my left arm...people thought I was nuts...no, just a poor slob who HAD to play disc golf!...make it HAPPEN.

I think the tally was 50 needle insertions, each arm, for a sum of closely-to $1,000, over about 2 years. The process is called plasmapheresis, and re-injects one's red blood cells back into the bloodstream, along with a saline solution. I was told the tow-coloured blood fluid [plasma] is useful for calibrating medical equipment.

I would also recommend electrolyte-replacing fluids and rest following a session...this is a missing part of your body we're talking about replacing. I actually ran intervals around the track within the hour...not sensible, but I was obsessed, and bullet-proof, then.

What time is it if you drive like crap miss 8 20 foot putts and still only miss 1st by 1 stroke in a 64 person field in MI???



time to practice more, besides everyone misses putts. Even the top guns. I watched Scott Stokley miss a short putt in sudden death one time against Ken Climo.

The differance between a true Pro and Advance player is just that the Pro is a little more consistant.

Go walk around with the top pro's sometime. You will realize they are human too. Watch them turn discs over, through OB, hit a tree, miss a short putt. It is how they handle those occurances the separates the men from the boys.

This actually worked for me , when I wanted to play with the Flu : The process is called plasmapheresis, and re-injects one's red blood cells back into the bloodstream, along with a saline solution.

Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy !!!!

I need a copy of the spreadsheet for flat payouts for a tourney this weekend. Can anyone link me to it? I just spent 45 minutes scrounging the menus at the top and couldn't find it.

Also, anyone have other resources a TD might want during a tournament? I'm loading my laptop up.

Here ya be.

http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05PayTables.pdf

Why is that considered flat? :confused:

And ams should not be playing for big prizes and/or cash, this is what creates sandbagging, offering $400 baskets, stacks of 15-20 discs, cash skins for ams is great for having a huge advanced field but not for growing the pro divisions which seem to be pretty small compared to advanced (in my area).

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.



You get 15% of the paid entry fees regardless if it is Pro or Am players. If you have more pro players, whom pay higher entries, then you would essentially and ethically earn more money. If you are taking more then 15% of the players money, you should be flogged.

And ams should not be playing for big prizes and/or cash, this is what creates sandbagging, offering $400 baskets, stacks of 15-20 discs, cash skins for ams is great for having a huge advanced field but not for growing the pro divisions which seem to be pretty small compared to advanced (in my area).

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.



I didn't realize TDs were in it to make money. Most TDs I know play in the open division, so I thought they would like more competitors in their division. So I guess you would prefer that everyone play in amatuer divisions so you can make money. And if you want to draw top players from your area or around the country having a large open division is helpful, what "sane, intelligent" pro would drive 3 hours to compete against 10 other pros? while at the same tournament there are 60 ams. If you don't have one, get a job so you don't have to rely on TDing to make a buck.

And ams should not be playing for big prizes and/or cash, this is what creates sandbagging, offering $400 baskets, stacks of 15-20 discs, cash skins for ams is great for having a huge advanced field but not for growing the pro divisions which seem to be pretty small compared to advanced (in my area).

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.



I think he means that the TD's make money for the tournament by charging the Am's retail for their plastic while only paying cost, or maybe every Am entry fee is a large disc sale.

I looks like some of your player did give up especially the ones at the bottom of the field that knew after the first round that they where not going to get any thing more out of the tournament besides playing in it and the love of the game. It looks like most of the players that finished worst than seventh played a few strokes worse during the second round.

Maybe trouphy only gets people to show up but it doesn't look like it gets them to play.


I just caught up with this thread, but this jumped out at me and I need to respond...Zach, not to be blunt, but that is such an ignorant and naive statement to make about people you don't know and an event you did not attend. How can you possibly know what anybody's motivations are?

I assume your point is that those folks that were "out of it" after round 1 would have tried harder if we had dangled a carrot in front of them (perhaps a disc for finishing 9th)? All I can say is that is a very shallow way to look at things. I'd also wager that if those bottom half players couldn't self-motivate themselves to play well in round 2 (with nothing but pride and bragging rights on the line), then the prospect of winning a disc wouldn't make much difference to them anyway.

There were a few guys who were "out of it" in Pro Open after round 1 and the prospect of $75 for 6th place (significantly more than a disc) didn't seem to make most of them play significantly better in round 2. Sometimes it just isn't your day or the bounces don't go your way. I'd be more confident saying that 10th through 24th in MA1 just didn't have it that day rather than say they "gave up" because there wasn't a pot of discs at the end of the rainbow.

If there really are that many folks motivated by the prospects of winning "stuff" and only winning "stuff", why don't we see more DNFs when somebody screws up round 1 and takes themselves out of contention for that Z-Crush going to 12th place? I'd think if they lost their "motivation", they'd go find something more productive to do with their time than play golf for "nothing".

I've probably wasted my time because it's clear you are set in your line of thinking Zach, especially if you're going to make blanket assumptions trying to pick apart and find fault what was clearly a successful event. Bruce continues to make the best point on these types of threads...if you don't like the way a tournament is run, don't attend or run tournaments the way you want to see them run. At the very least, it may demonstrate that your philosophies have merit.

--Josh

Why is that considered flat? :confused:


It pays out over half of the field.

I looks like some of your player did give up especially the ones at the bottom of the field that knew after the first round that they where not going to get any thing more out of the tournament besides playing in it and the love of the game. It looks like most of the players that finished worst than seventh played a few strokes worse during the second round.

Maybe trouphy only gets people to show up but it doesn't look like it gets them to play.


I just caught up with this thread, but this jumped out at me and I need to respond...Zach, not to be blunt, but that is such an ignorant and naive statement to make about people you don't know and an event you did not attend. How can you possibly know what anybody's motivations are?
<font color="blue"> Your right I don't know these people all I can go on is what I see and what I saw was a bunch of players (below the top nine) that had second rounds that where not as good as their first round, one the other hand some people did have better rounds but it looks like more people had worse rounds than the players that had better rounds. </font>

I assume your point is that those folks that were "out of it" after round 1 would have tried harder if we had dangled a carrot in front of them (perhaps a disc for finishing 9th)? All I can say is that is a very shallow way to look at things. I'd also wager that if those bottom half players couldn't self-motivate themselves to play well in round 2 (with nothing but pride and bragging rights on the line), then the prospect of winning a disc wouldn't make much difference to them anyway.
<font color="blue"> I think that if there is a reward for good play you will see more player playing well, I can only go on how I played last year (my donation year) if I know I was out of the cash by 10 spots and had a bad hole it was hard for me to put together a good round. This may not be the best incentive or example but it did propped me to improve my game over the winter so I wouldn't have to worry about being out of the cash, but now with the flat payout every one is getting part of the pot and no one is getting rewarded or punished for their play. The motivation that once drove me to become a better player is in my opinion is being eliminated while a your all winners attitude is taking over, well sorry to say it but we are not all winners. </font>

There were a few guys who were "out of it" in Pro Open after round 1 and the prospect of $75 for 6th place (significantly more than a disc) didn't seem to make most of them play significantly better in round 2. Sometimes it just isn't your day or the bounces don't go your way. I'd be more confident saying that 10th through 24th in MA1 just didn't have it that day rather than say they "gave up" because there wasn't a pot of discs at the end of the rainbow.
<font color="blue"> 10th through 24th is a lot of people to say it was just a bad day or they didn't get the breaks they needed, but I'm sure that it was a mix of things. My point is that even if they had a bad break if there's some thing in for them then maybe they would play through in but if there's nothing in it for them then oh well. </font>

If there really are that many folks motivated by the prospects of winning "stuff" and only winning "stuff", why don't we see more DNFs when somebody screws up round 1 and takes themselves out of contention for that Z-Crush going to 12th place? I'd think if they lost their "motivation", they'd go find something more productive to do with their time than play golf for "nothing".
<font color="blue"> Sorry to say this but I know a few people that have DNF if they where out of the cash, mainly pros but that's beyond the point. </font>

I've probably wasted my time because it's clear you are set in your line of thinking Zach, especially if you're going to make blanket assumptions trying to pick apart and find fault what was clearly a successful event. Bruce continues to make the best point on these types of threads...if you don't like the way a tournament is run, don't attend or run tournaments the way you want to see them run. At the very least, it may demonstrate that your philosophies have merit.
<font color="blue"> Your time will never be wasted on me since I take in all accounts and opinions. Some times they change a view point and some times they strengthen them. Like I said before I'm only going on what I see, I'm not trying to take on your tournament and I have complemented it in past post.

As to the comment if you don't like it don't play or run your own tournament I do plan on running an Am only tournament that will have a huge payout and it will reward players for playing well. Will I hear about baggers probably so but if you can't take that defeat and turn it in to motivation to improving your game then you will never be a winner.
</font>
--Josh

SHUT THE F UP ZNASH!

SHUT THE F UP ZNASH!


what.
http://columbusdiscgolf.com/images/jerkit.gif

What's with the flat payout, does this really work or is it hurting the advanced division?



What's hurting the advanced division is greed. Thanks for pointing that out.

myabe yuo ddnint undresantd me befroe, so lett me tarnsalte it for yuo. SHUT THE F UP.

myabe yuo ddnint undresantd me befroe, so lett me tarnsalte it for yuo. SHUT THE F UP.


Obviously I don't know what you're talking about or I just don't care.

You're a 1027 rated whiner.

Sorry, that's 1100 rated get it right.

I also complained about this payout but really I didnt care about the payout. I paid my 43 dollars played 2 rounds with some great people had a blast got a pretty nice towel in the players pack, played like complete crap got 3rd place won 77 dollars and a trophy. If someone asked me "Hey would you go play that tournament again if you knew the outcome would be the same" I would say "Heck yea I had a blast and It was better then being at work all day" I was complaining because I played like crap and wasnt happy with my performance not because I was unhappy with the payout. Sure it was REALLY deep and REALLY weak at the top but you know what in all reality I had fun for the 43 bucks that I spent.

So if you want to complain about not breaking even or not making any profit then move up and play for CASH and then all you will have to complain about is that fact that you didnt play well enough to break even (just like Nash this past weekend which is most likely why he is complaining). So come join me out on the road in 2006 and play for what really matters. CASH and points in the Open division :D

What's with the flat payout, does this really work or is it hurting the advanced division?



What's hurting the advanced division is greed. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm not trying to be greedy I'm only tiring to gain experience before I turn pro. I also think that you should get some thing for winning instead of a kick in the asss.

What's with the flat payout, does this really work or is it hurting the advanced division?



What's hurting the advanced division is greed. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm not trying to be greedy I'm only tiring to gain experience before I turn pro. I also think that you should get some thing for winning instead of a kick in the asss.



The experience that will benefit you most when you turn Pro is a better head game than you currently have. Try to play for fun and competition. See how that works out.

Sorry, that's 1100 rated get it right.



It's officially 1027, they changed the ratings system, we have to count your bad rants too.

This has nothing to do with the Gale V. it has to do with the system, which created the flat payout.

All I tried to do was ask why the PDGA moved to a flat payout for the advanced division and all I've received from it is one big kick in the teeth.

What's with the flat payout, does this really work or is it hurting the advanced division?



What's hurting the advanced division is greed. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm not trying to be greedy I'm only tiring to gain experience before I turn pro. I also think that you should get some thing for winning instead of a kick in the asss.



The experience that will benefit you most when you turn Pro is a better head game than you currently have. Try to play for fun and competition. See how that works out.


Have you ever played a round of disc golf with me, if not how can you even talk about my game mental or physical, and if you have played a round with me you would have never post that statement.

Sorry, that's 1100 rated get it right.



It's officially 1027, they changed the ratings system, we have to count your bad rants too.



Getting your digs in on the ratings system I see :D

What's with the flat payout, does this really work or is it hurting the advanced division?



What's hurting the advanced division is greed. Thanks for pointing that out.


I'm not trying to be greedy I'm only tiring to gain experience before I turn pro. I also think that you should get some thing for winning instead of a kick in the asss.



The experience that will benefit you most when you turn Pro is a better head game than you currently have. Try to play for fun and competition. See how that works out.


Have you ever played a round of disc golf with me, if not how can you even talk about my game mental or physical, and if you have played a round with me you would have never post that statement.




Your head game is what I was referencing above. (Go ahead, read it.)

Your head game is clearly not what it should be. Remeber typing this?


When the difference between second and seventh is only a 5-10 dollars in the advanced field I don't see why advanced player will struggle to get that long putt or dig deep to pull back from a bad hole, while the difference of one stroke in the open field can be the difference in 100+ dollars. I think the flat payout will bread lazy golfers that play for their players pack and some of their entry because they finished half way up the pack.




Ok. Now convince me that your head game needs no improvement. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Post deleted by Znash

Ok. Now convince me that your head game needs no improvement. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif




My result so far this year.
Advanced
Place Points Tournament Date(s) Total Prize
7 105 March Madness 19-Mar-2005 159 <font color="blue">normal payout </font>
19 2130 Bowling Green Amateur Championships 02-Apr to 03-Apr-2005 212 <font color="red"> flat payout </font>
3 165 Lexington Open VII 09-Apr to 10-Apr-2005 200 <font color="red">flat payout </font>
2 130 Columbus Point Series #2 07-May-2005 108 <font color="blue"> normal payout</font>
9 472 Fling-A-Thing Pro/Am Doubles 21-May-2005 125 <font color="red"> flat payout </font>
3 247 Disc 'n Dat Bluegrass Open 28-May to 29-May-2005 265 <font color="red"> flat payout </font>
2 120 Discraft Shoot the Breeze Open 04-Jun to 05-Jun-2005 169 <font color="red"> flat payout </font>
4 760 Discraft Great Lakes Open 24-Jun to 26-Jun-2005 198 <font color="red"> flat payout </font>


I hope this helps.

Ok. Now convince me that your head game needs no improvement. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif




My result so far this year.
Advanced
Place Points Tournament Date(s) Total Prize
7 105 March Madness 19-Mar-2005 159
19 2130 Bowling Green Amateur Championships 02-Apr to 03-Apr-2005 212
3 165 Lexington Open VII 09-Apr to 10-Apr-2005 200
2 130 Columbus Point Series #2 07-May-2005 108
9 472 Fling-A-Thing Pro/Am Doubles 21-May-2005 125
3 247 Disc 'n Dat Bluegrass Open 28-May to 29-May-2005 265
2 120 Discraft Shoot the Breeze Open 04-Jun to 05-Jun-2005 169
4 760 Discraft Great Lakes Open 24-Jun to 26-Jun-2005 198




Those look like GREAT payouts! Get outta here and go play with all your plastic! :D

No they look like good finishs the payout at most of the event was flat and I still played in them and tried to win them.

Ok. I'm done with this topic. Zack, I wish you much success in your endeavors.

Perhaps at the next one you could ask for your payout to be tendered in this (http://www.kleenex.com/home.htm)?

The horse is dead, quit kicking it. :D

No they look like good finishs the payout at most of the event was flat and I still played in them and tried to win them.



Too bad you havent won anything :D

Maybe if you stopped running your mouth about how good you THINK you are you could concentrate enough to win one of these tournaments :eek: Instead of just complaining about the payouts all the time :D

Now I Know how you feel Steve, when you're trying to get a point across and no one else cares.

Thank you for your kind words and I hope that your game is constantly improving, on another note what did you get for your memorial win last year Erik.

A DGA Mach V. It was shipped to my home with a nice note and a black bottom stamped Z-Crush. I also got a great feeling in my chest when I crushed the rest of the Advanced Men's field. Hard to say which was better. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The winning was better. The basket was just gravy.

He got a basket just like I did this year. Its also a one of the top 3 SuperTour in the country as far as sponsorship and added cash and total purse. The PDGA doesnt MAKE anyone use their payout system they just suggest that they use it. Had you have won any of the SuperTours you said you were going to you could have won as basket as well. Seems to me that your just upset with your play and then complaining about the payouts like I did on sunday :D

So your prize was equal to your pride, but I beat that it felt good to get both of them.

The winning was better. The basket was just gravy.



The wisdom in Rhett's head is what causes his hair to grow so long. :D

I know they are somewhere, but I cannot find them.

Where are the payout scales located? I would like to see this for myself. I know there are about 3-4 of them.

The winning was better. The basket was just gravy.



Oh so true Rhett. Oh so true!!!

Nothing beats the feeling you get when you walk into the scoring tent and see your name atop a huge field after a grueling weekend of golf. Not the plastic you win or the basket you win can replace that feeling :D

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.



You get 15% of the paid entry fees regardless if it is Pro or Am players. If you have more pro players, whom pay higher entries, then you would essentially and ethically earn more money. If you are taking more then 15% of the players money, you should be flogged.



Bruce, Brett and I don't take 15% from anyone. We don't charge a TD fee. We run the tournaments that we want to play. We also don't run tournaments to make a profit. But we do make money on the ams which pays for the process of running a tournament and sometimes a little left over to go to the disc golf clubs involved. We don't make any money on the pros accept for the pros that buy discs from us.

My personal opinion is that without the pros, the tournaments wouldn't be as much fun. But that doesn't mean that we are looking for more ways to get more pros to come to our tournaments. If our pros like our tournaments and 100% payout (sometimes less PDGA fees if the tournament isn't very profitable), then they will come back.

I know they are somewhere, but I cannot find them.

Where are the payout scales located? I would like to see this for myself. I know there are about 3-4 of them.



In the past there were 3-4, now there are only 2.

The scales are different if you wish to pay deeper into the field.

Go to the home page,
in the grey box click on "2005 PDGA Tour Information"
then click on the "2005 Tour Pay Tables" link.

Here is an excel spreadsheet payout calculator (http://www.lsdga.com/abacus/PDGA_Payout.zip) so you can see what fees and player's packs do to payouts.

Save the link target if it doesn't open when you click on it.

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.




Bruce, Brett and I don't take 15% from anyone. We don't charge a TD fee. We run the tournaments that we want to play. We also don't run tournaments to make a profit. But we do make money on the ams which pays for the process of running a tournament and sometimes a little left over to go to the disc golf clubs involved. We don't make any money on the pros accept for the pros that buy discs from us.




So why would you not want larger pro divisions? You say you don't run tournaments to make money but from what Bruce said it sounds like he wants to make a buck or two by having less pros and a bunch of ams.
Bruce or John please explain these statements "Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions?" and "We also don't run tournaments to make a profit."

I have a reply sitting on my computer at work. I'll reply next time I'm there. I must have forgot to hit the post button the second time.

I don't think it is that uncommon for TDs/clubs to run tournaments with breaking even being the main goal (aside from providing a tournament on their home course). There are clubs and TDs that are in the business of making income from tournaments, but they are in a volume business and have to run multiple events and ususally benefit from lower expenses per event.

This applies to not having to calculate stock so that they sell everything at each event, being able to spread expenses for material (tables, tents, etc) across many events and being able to (hopefully) develop long term relationships with bigger sponsors.

So why would you not want larger pro divisions? You say you don't run tournaments to make money but from what Bruce said it sounds like he wants to make a buck or two by having less pros and a bunch of ams.
Bruce or John please explain these statements "Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions?" and "We also don't run tournaments to make a profit."



I can explain Bruce's quote by saying that Bruce says and posts things to get a rise out of people. He's been pushing my buttons for 39 years!

We didn't start running tournaments in order to make a profit. We started running tournaments so that there would be tournaments that we wanted to play. It is why we have 4 TDs that work each of our events and run them split day so that all of us can play each event. We also don't run tournaments to lose money. If we ran a tournament that was all pros and we didn't have sponsorship, we wouldn't be able to payout 100% because there wouldn't be any profit. We need the profit to pay for the process.

yes, you can take 15% of the pro and Am entry fee as a TD fee, but I don't know anyone that does it, including all the Pro TD's here in Texas.

I get about $800 in disc sales at a tournament (if I have the newest popular disc)

Then I get a profit from the am payouts. I personally run my tournaments as a break even (well I still owe $1700 from the 3 I did last year) If I didn't order so many discs, I would not owe anything. (all three tournament had lower turnouts than expected.

This year I am doing 3 tournament again.

Texas 10 this weekend,
The Carrollton Open in September
Alex Clark Memorial in October.

All profits from the Texas 10 and Alex Clark will go into the Carrollton Open. (what I don't give away in a ring of fire)

These profits from Am payouts and disc sales go to pay for the players packages, trophies, tents, tables, coolers, trailer rental (got one donated this year :D)

There is money to be made running tournament, just not enough to live off of. (just ask Chris Himing, Brian Mace, Mark Atwood, or Gimp)

BTW, I understand the theory behind the flat payout, but don't like it that much.

I have used this the last few years at the Carrollton Open.

Novice/Rec - top 60% flat payout.
Am - top 50% less flat payout
Adv - top 40% less flat payout
Pro - top 35% with top heavy payout (not as top heavy as in past years though)
Masters Top 40% less flat payout

All Women I have paid out at 100%, in fact the only woman who ever played the Carrollton Open and did not walk away with more than she paid* to play was Des Reading, she played Open Men that year and hurt her leg and dropped out.

*this includes payout, trophies and players packages.

Can you explain why any sane, intelligent TD should want to grow the pro divisions? We don't make any money on pro players.



Thanks john but this is probably the dumbest statement I have ever read on this message board. I understand no TD wants to loose money but not wanting to grow pro divisions is rediculous. Our sport will never go anywhere if all we have is amatuer players, even if the ams are really good it appeals much more to spectators and sponsors/potential sponsors to support/watch a professional division. I've never been to either but I'm willing to bet that the USDGC has more sponsorship and spectators than the USADGC.

Once again I will say that trophy only is the only way to go for amatuers. Out of all the crap I won when I played am, the only things I really care about are the discs I have with a 1st Place stamp on them b/c they remind me of good times not fat payouts.

I'm not saying this to push anyone's buttons. It is just a fact. As a TD I have no interest in growing the pro divisions. I have an interest in growing the amateur divisions. Recognizing my self-interest, I have tried to structure our events in a way that would encourage amateurs to stay amateur, would encourage amateurs to play more of our events, and would encourage pros to travel to other events with fat added cash.

What's more, I think I've been successful.

2004 Crystal Cruise 20 pros. 60 ams.
2005 Crystal Cruise 25 pros. 130 ams.

25% growth on the pro side. 117% growth on the am side.

So far we have only lost three of our amateurs to the siren call of last cash. I'm not sure where those other two pros came from. Maybe they ride with an amateur? :D

Every time we run a tournament for 150+ players I can't believe it. I'll post before and after numbers for the 2004 and 2005 Streamwood tournaments in a couple of weeks.

Bottom line: I think every Great Lakes region TD except one should run flatter payouts and trophy-only events for amateurs. By all means, chase away your lower divisions by not sanctioning them and then paying them 50% or so at retail. For all those TDs that is an effing brilliant idea.

The Less Facetious Bottom Line: You can't defy the laws of economics any more than you can defy the laws of physics. There is no point debating what you should do when it is obvious what you must do. When you flow with the laws of economics, the momentum will carry you to the bank every time.

...I have tried to structure our events in a way that would encourage amateurs to stay amateur, would encourage amateurs to play more of our events, and would encourage pros to travel to other events with fat added cash.



Different...and interesting. I presume your sponsors have no problem with the Pro/AM ratio? What are some good reasons to encourage AMs to 'remain' AMs; avoid disappointment, perhaps, or is it solely just to>>>Pro Payouts?

As a TD I have no interest in growing the pro divisions. I have an interest in growing the amateur divisions. Recognizing my self-interest, I have tried to structure our events in a way that would encourage amateurs to stay amateur, would encourage amateurs to play more of our events, and would encourage pros to travel to other events with fat added cash.



Way to take the P out of PDGA! You are promoting the "move up, move up, move out" mentality! Keep growing those amateur divisions, and when those ams get good enough to go pro--you tell them to go away to another tournament because you can't get into their wallet anymore.

Why are we bothering ourselves with AM payouts?

Yes, in order to grow as a sport, we need to recruit (addict) more golfers. We ALL start out as amateurs. But if you try to promote a system which makes amateurs want to remain amateurs regardless of how good they have gotten you start to take away the enjoyment of the sport for the beginners. Primarily I am talking about the MA1 division because I actually know more people who were "forced" to move up from MA2 once their skills got better, then I do of people forced to move to MPO from MA1.

(I was one of these people forced into advanced. "If your throwing 390ft uphill, I never want to see you in MA2 again." This was said to me at a tournament when I was complaining there was no MA2 division, and I just parked a 390ft hill with 15ft of upward elevation change. I had been throwing a disc for a grand total of 4 months before I was pressured into competeting in MA1.)

I am not supporting the move up, move up, move out mentality, I think the 955 pros playing Am rule is a great idea, for players to remain competitive. But the media (outside) focus of growing the sport needs to be on the Pros. This is where the attention is, not Am's. Nobody cares about amateurs in the media. I think this is best summarized in a statement my buddy told me last night while on the course. I had mentioned Steve Mills and a deal he and I have going. My friend asked who he was and I said "One of the best Amateurs in the nation, if not the world, right now." To which he replied "So what does that mean?" What does that mean? Well it means that no matter how good amateurs are, they (we) are just that, amateurs. We play the game for the love of the sport, the thrill of competition, and the desire to achieve greater success.

The fact that we are sitting here arguing about amateur payouts is ludicris (spelling?). Sure amateurs should get something for going to a tournament, (players pack, a disc, and a trophy to the top placers). What should they get for traveling to the larger tournaments such as Michiana, DGLO, Brent Hambrick, Bowling Green Am's, Worlds, USADGC, and anyother A-Tier event? A BIGGER PLAYERS PACK AND A BIGGER TROPHY! These events have the sponsorship money to handle that better then the B and C tiers.

If your an amateur who is concerned with the amount of payout, then it is time you moved up. If you are preparing yourself for Open level competition but just are not there yet? Enjoy your easy placements on the top cards, learn valuable competition skills, and relish in the fact that you are not trying to make a living on this sport and if you do bad in a tournament you can still eat dinner that week. Those are the rewards for competeting in Am's in preparation for Pros. Not to just stock up on plastic, which if you are truly serious, buy it in bulk from the factory.

Climbs off his soap box for now....... :mad:;)

BTW, I understand the theory behind the flat payout, but don't like it that much.




So, what is the theory behind the flat payout?

...I have tried to structure our events in a way that would encourage amateurs to stay amateur, would encourage amateurs to play more of our events, and would encourage pros to travel to other events with fat added cash.



Different...and interesting. I presume your sponsors have no problem with the Pro/AM ratio? What are some good reasons to encourage AMs to 'remain' AMs; avoid disappointment, perhaps, or is it solely just to>>>Pro Payouts?

Sponsors? The Rockford Convention and Visitors' Bureau wanted to see us fill up two 18 hole courses with hoardes of food-eating motel-sleeping gas-burning out-of-town players. If they knew amateurs from pros, they would want more amateurs. They saw 172 players and volunteers at the event. They were very happy.

Otherwise, the amateurs who play our tournaments are our main sponsors. We take the money that other TDs shift from the amateur entry fees to the pro payout and instead plough that back into the amateur prizes. They seem to be fine with the pro-am ratios. I think it is the prizes to entry fee ratio of about 7:5 that keeps them happy.

I only have one reason for encouraging ams to stay am: works for me; works for them. What does anyone get for turning pro? For the top 10%, a hobby that pays for itself, a decent part-time job on the weekends. The rest would be better off winning plastic at steep payout events and selling it quick for 66% of retail.

What does a flat payout mean to you ?

A) A payout where first gets a few hundred dollars, but not significantly more than 2nd ?

B) A payout where 1st gets about double his entry and second is nearly the same.

C) A payout where first gets the same as second (and 15th) plus a trophy ?


The correct answer is C. The other two aren't flat, just flatter than what we have come to expect. I've never agreed that the winner should take home twice as much as second who takes home nearly twice as much as third. Leaving nothing to pay the rest.

With required player packs, the rest are taking their cut up front and the winners are complaining that there is nothing left for them.

After you subtract PDGA Fees, local club fees, and player packs, there is not much left from a $40 entry. I was always of the opinion that players packs and PDGA fees should be covered by sponsorship, but there is no requirement for that.

It means that if I shoot better that some one else they will get nearly the same amount of prize money as me, over the other way around if I get my butt kicked by some one better than me then they will only get a minor increase in their winnings.

This is what I was going to post last night

If you want to run tournaments you have to make money on amateurs. I'm ordering merch today. My Innova bill is going to be $2,131.50 plus shipping. My Discwing bill is going to be $416 plus shipping. Then there's Discraft and Cattongue wanting reasonable piles of money for their products. For this last tournament we paid the PDGA over $700. Large piles of money fly back and forth when you run an event for 150 players. Not that much of it comes to rest with the TDs for one of our events. Mostly what we get is the profit on cash sales.

Profit is not a bad word. Profit is what makes these events happen. When the gross repeatedly fails to exceed expenses, then you have to close up shop.

And we don't make any profit on pros, except if they happen to buy a disc. There is no mark up on cash.

This past weekend at the B Tier in MI there were 64 Advanced players.

First place took home 105+ Trophy. Second was 88+ Trophy. 3rd was 77+ Trophy and then they pretty much dropped it a few bucks and paid the next 5 or 6 spots the same then so on and so forth untill 32nd place took home about 32 dollars. Pretty much there entry fee less PDGA fees and Series fees. Is this seriously how we want to pay out the MAJORITY of the PDGA. Do we want them to travel 3 4 5 some 6 hours to a huge B tier event with 64 people in the division and then say "Hey we know you drove 6 hours to play and you played great and placed top 5 out of 64 but we are still only going to give you like 60 bucks. I mean seriously if thats the case people WILL stop playing tournaments and they will for sure stop traveling out of state to tournaments. Im not one of these people. I travel and play for the competition and the fun of it and because I get to hang out with great people at tournaments. Im just letting you guys know that there are a bunch of AM for Life guys who are still pretty good ams that would just quit playing because its not worth their time to travel and play and not get anything. Its sad that people play for just that reason but some people do.

Doesnt matter to me though I only have about 15 more tournaments as an am anyway so payout as deep and as flat as you want because I have too much plastic anyway and I dont need anymore. All I want to win now are BASKETS and CASH!!! :D

How much was the entry fee ?

43 Bucks

If he's talking about the Gale V. it was 43 dollars to play, and I'm pretty sure that all or more money was paid out.

GVM payouts actually look square if they deducted a series fee and a pdga fee and took out for the player pack and trophies. At the IOS events we don't deduct for the series fee or the trophies or the pdga fees. We take that out of our profit. Sometimes we screw up and don't deduct for the player packs in one division or another. And we still don't lose money because we aren't shifting am entry fees to the pro payout.

This post was edited brcause my comparison of GVM payouts to Rockford payouts was bogus. We paid what I posted, but we only paid that much because we made a mathmatical mistake calculating payouts. D-GLO-oh!

A vary nice towel.

We got an towel and lunch.

I won a C Tier up north with 15 players and a 35 dollar entry and still got 120+Trophy for my payout there. I finish 1 stroke out of first at a B Tier with 64 players and get 77. Thats insance. I know the PDGA "suggests" you pay out half the field at C Tier which is fine but not B Tiers. I want to see the paper work on that and the TD even said. "I dont want to pay out like this the PDGA makes me" Is there seriously somewhere it says if you dont use the PDGA payscale you can no longer run a sanctioned tournament???

He said there were serial fees as well as PDGA fees, and I was guessing a B-Tier which has a $15 player pack requirement.

To reach over $100 for first using the current PDGA guidelines for payout, the entry fee should have been $48 and paid 29 players in the division. I fixed a problem with the calculator (http://www.lsdga.com/abacus/PDGA_Payout.zip) .

The new PDGA pay charts are very slightly sloped in all amatuer divisions. This was the case earlier for non-advanced players (different charts for PRO/Adv/Am) now there are only 2 charts. One for Pro, one for Am.

Your right lunch was the Bomb!

Is there seriously somewhere it says if you dont use the PDGA payscale you can no longer run a sanctioned tournament???



The Sanctioning agreement states that the TD will follow all PDGA rules. The Pay charts are not rules, but are part of the expectation of players attending a PDGA event (or should be).
If a TD drastically alters the payouts from the chart, and someone complains it is on the TD to defend his actions.

If the TD follows the PDGA recommendations and someone complains, he shrugs his shoulders and points to the PDGA.

Nothing will sell trophy-only competition better than payouts like that! Sounds like the MDGO Gale Vaughn used to know.

Dear PDGA,

Can you please tell me what is with this new flat payout and what where the reasons for the change from last year's payout system to this years flat payout system?

Zacchaeus Nash
22501
A three year member of your organization

Copy and paste that HERE (http://www.pdga.com/contact.php?a=sf&contact=Administrator) and someone should get back to you after some little tournament in PA is done.

I am not speaking for the PDGA...but, the idea is to incourage people playing at the top of any am division to move up to the next divsion...so more up ya bagger and stop ******** about the PAYOUT IN ANY NON-PRO DIVISION... :D

The Sanctioning agreement states that the TD will follow all PDGA rules. The Pay charts are not rules, but are part of the expectation of players attending a PDGA event (or should be).
If a TD drastically alters the payouts from the chart, and someone complains it is on the TD to defend his actions.

If the TD follows the PDGA recommendations and someone complains, he shrugs his shoulders and points to the PDGA.




The funny thing is the only time I have heard anyone complain is when the TD uses the PDGA pay charts. So why not just alter it and make it a heavy top end payout and pay 35 percent of the field and be done with it. Sandbagging is going to happen no matter what and in all actuality it doesnt matter. There are usually 1 or 2 sandbaggers in a state and they arent going to play every single event and even if they do. So what they win every single time. Its not like there isnt enough payout for the rest of the players. Its not like the top 10 at every tournament are sandbaggers. If people want to sandbag and play for plastic instead of cash then let them. I also think this sport has a messed up definition of sandbagging as well. A 960 rated player playing in the advnaced division is not a sandbagger. They are a good advanced player. The reason they get called a sandbagger is because there are way to many sub 915 players playing in the advanced division when they shouldnt be. Now if there is a 980 rated player playing in advance and winning everything *cough* Dave Shaw *cough* Coda Hatfield *cough* Justin Jernigan *cough* then that is sandbagging because they could have been cashing on a regular basis in the Open division and it shows because now 2 out of the 3 are 1000 rated and one is lik 995 after less then a year of playing Open.

I say if people want to stay am for life and win everything then let them. All the true players will just pass them by and move up into the Open division anyway. I say pay the top 3rd of the field and make the top 5 spots heavy payouts. People will eventually get sick of winning plastic and move up :D

My impression from having been on the PDGA board for a little while is that well intentioned, dearly loved socialists, democrats and humanists on the board think it would be better for you as a human being if you were not playing for filthy lucre as an amateur. My attitude that I expressed at least once was, "So long as I am allowed to do something Randian with my payouts, you guys go right ahead with this. Smart TDs will get a leg up with this plan."

This post was edited as to the GVM/Rockford thing covered on two other posts.

In my opinion, top heavy payouts at our series have eliminated sandbagging. How you ask? By better rewarding those amateurs who play in the division indicated by their rating we have had many more amateurs playing in the division indicated by their rating. When you have three 870ish rated men playing rec, as indicated by their rating, you can quickly identify the non-member who will not be allowed to play rec next time. Ditto when you have three or four 910 rated players playing intermediate. When you talk to one guy privately and tell him he won't be doing that anymore, the word gets around. He might not come back to your tournament, but four other guys who don't appreciate sandbagging will.

Why would you be telling a 910 rated player that they won't be playing INT anymore ?

I think the larger issue is that the full retail value of the player's pack is deductable from the entry fee. I think the PDGA should limit the amount deducted from the entry to cover the player's pack to half of the required value and force the TDs to find sponsorship to cover the other half.

To start your payout calculatinos for the lower divisions with sometimes more than half of the entry fee already deducted makes the payouts look very lean. This added to the fact that with such gradual slopes in the payout charts that several sequential spots round off to the same dollar value, make our payout methods look suspect to any golfer that has been around a few years.

On the positive side, a newer player can go to a PDGA B-Tier or above and know that they will be leaving with something from the tournament. When I started playing, player packs were not something to expect. I went to many tournaments where the winner took home boxes of discs, and 66%+ of the field went home with nothing but memories. With ever increasing entry fees and gas prices, that makes it a little tough for the traveling seldom in the cash player.

With player ratings, mandated player packs, and deeper payouts, the PDGA looks to be trying to feed the masses instead of fattening the top layer in the amatuer divisions.

This isn't really a bad thing when you look at the goal of the organization. We as players and organizers should be in favor of encouraging and building the masses. The question is "Will the new payout structure succeed in drawing the non-tournament golfer into the tournament scene ?".

Why would you be telling a 910 rated player that they won't be playing INT anymore ?

My post was not clear. The group of 910 rated players in intermediate identify who the non-rated baggers are as do the 870 rated players in rec. The guy beating the 910 pack by five strokes per round obviously is out of his proper division. He is the one I'm telling not to sign up for intermediate again, unless he joins and gets an intermediate rating.

The unrated people losing to the 910 rated players by five or more strokes per round and calling them baggers are also out of their proper division. By encouraging more players to play where they belong it is easy to tell at a glance what approximate round ratings will be and to whom I can say, "If you want to move down to Rec, you would not be bagging there. The PDGA divisional standards are a bit higher than the local standards in Joliet [or where ever] and we are fine with non-members playing in the division indicated by how they are playing."

Meanwhile my comparison of GVM payouts to Rockford payouts was totally bogus. I just realized we pulled a "D-GLO-oh!" in Rockford. We did not properly account for player packs and we way overpaid our Advanced amateurs. I heard that the DGLO did that last year. Fortunately we made the mistake on the payouts only and not on the tournament expense sheet.

All you Rockford advanced players owe me a big thank-you! Or $5 cash, either would be fine. :D

I was wondering how you were paying out so many Advanced CTPs....

What does a flat payout mean to you ?

A) A payout where first gets a few hundred dollars, but not significantly more than 2nd ?

B) A payout where 1st gets about double his entry and second is nearly the same.

C) A payout where first gets the same as second (and 15th) plus a trophy ?


The correct answer is C. The other two aren't flat, just flatter than what we have come to expect.



I disagree. If you graph PDGA payout charts from a couple of years ago, you will see that they start low and gradually climb as you go from last cash and then take off like the graph of the tangent function as you approach first place. It is a very steep climb to the top. (I think this is called the "Ruth-Voakes Curve".)

To me, a "flat payout" flattens this huge curve at the top where 1st takes twice as much as 2nd etc. In the amateur divisions, 1st should take a little more than 2nd who takes a little more than 3rd. Graph the payout and it should be coser to a straight line. Not a zero slope line, but a linear payout. With big fields in ams, the curve method makes the 1st through 10th payout way to huge for an am event. And I am an am.

Maybe the curve makes sense in the pro field, where it is theoretically more exciting when that last putt is worth $300. But not in the ams.

Why would you be telling a 910 rated player that they won't be playing INT anymore ?

My post was not clear. The group of 910 rated players in intermediate identify who the non-rated baggers are as do the 870 rated players in rec. The guy beating the 910 pack by five strokes per round obviously is out of his proper division. He is the one I'm telling not to sign up for intermediate again, unless he joins and gets an intermediate rating.

The unrated people losing to the 910 rated players by five or more strokes per round and calling them baggers are also out of their proper division. By encouraging more players to play where they belong it is easy to tell at a glance what approximate round ratings will be and to whom I can say, "If you want to move down to Rec, you would not be bagging there. The PDGA divisional standards are a bit higher than the local standards in Joliet [or where ever] and we are fine with non-members playing in the division indicated by how they are playing."

Meanwhile my comparison of GVM payouts to Rockford payouts was totally bogus. I just realized we pulled a "D-GLO-oh!" in Rockford. We did not properly account for player packs and we way overpaid our Advanced amateurs. I heard that the DGLO did that last year. Fortunately we made the mistake on the payouts only and not on the tournament expense sheet.

All you Rockford advanced players owe me a big thank-you! Or $5 cash, either would be fine. :D



so you follow the rating guidelines, but disregard the payout guidelines? am I missing something?

Rhett that version of a flat payout has been around since the PDGA was founded. That method is called the Monroe Method. It starts at the bottom or "last cash" and they earned their money back. Then each position up you add equal incriments up to the top.

You can make it work with Am's too.

Effectively what a player pack does is pay out to last place. We give it to the players up front, but it is just paying out to last.

At one time I thought most players did not want player packs. Now I'm not certain. Vocal players who are at the top of advanced don't want player packs. Maybe for the 2/3rds of the players who are not getting that much payout, player packs are an effective gimmick. If I lose a Mills and get five more Shorts, that is so worth it. :D

At the IOS events I've always figured that if the players did not want players packs, they'd play skins for their brass or Nasau or something within their foursome. I have not heard of it happening.

If you are a TD and you want to do steeper payouts it is very easy to do: calculate the PDGA payout off the new charts. Shave $2 off every place. Give that to the top four spots, 37%, 27%, 21%, 15%. Or calculate the payout off the deeper chart. Lop off the bottom three or four spots and redistribute that to the top three of four spots. You can come up with your own formula. It only takes a couple extra minutes.

Vocal players who are at the top of advanced don't want player packs.


They also want 5-somes on every hole plus ghost cards.

My experience is that by far most players want player packs. It's kind of 50-50 as to who prefers t-shirts and who prefers tourney stamped discs. But there are usually only 2 or 3 really loud ones who want "max payday". Those guys usually aren't too fond of my favorite gimmick: "every card CTP" where you only have to beat your cardmates to win something nice.

so you follow the rating guidelines, but disregard the payout guidelines? am I missing something?



Ratings is more than a guideline. It is more like a mandate. Every PDGA TD gets an e-mail about a week before their tournament that reminds them to follow the PDGA rules regarding illegal activities and ratings caps on divisions.

However, we base out payouts on the PDGA tables...we just choose to use the 2004 tables!

Would I, as a TD, have the freedom next year, if the 2m rule is removed, to use a out-of-date rulebook?

I was wondering how you were paying out so many Advanced CTPs....

We would have done that many CTPs regardless. We always do a ton of CTPs when we have a ton of players. It is a fun way to give excess profits back to the players. Greg got the CTP sponsorship package from Discraft and he pulled in some CTP stuff from the St. Louis and Wiscinois clubs so the CTPs were fairly painless.

Greg was awesome. Greg rocks. :D

Greg, are you reading this? I meant to e-mail you this morning. We overpaid the advanced players. But on the other side, they spent way too much cash on merch, so its all even!

I like player's packs. Even if they are little dinky ones. It makes those of us donating players feel not so left out.

Would I, as a TD, have the freedom next year, if the 2m rule is removed, to use a out-of-date rulebook?



You'd probably have to X-tier it if you wanted to vary from the current rules of whatever year your tournament is taking place. It sounds like we will still be able to use the 2m rule next year, just the default will change from 2m rules in use(this year) to 2m rule not in use. So, next year we will have to announce at the player's meeting that we will be using the 2m rule. What this has to do with what payout table a TD uses, I do not know.

current payout tables, current rules, current player ratings.

I'm not a fan of buffet style (pick and choose). I like to know what I'm getting into before the event.

Do you announce you are using out-of-date tables?

current payout tables, current rules, current player ratings.

I'm not a fan of buffet style (pick and choose). I like to know what I'm getting into before the event.

Do you announce you are using out-of-date tables?



Actually they are not out of date. There is no expiration date on them. They are still available on the PDGA website where they keep the TD tools. They are just as fresh as the day they were printed. Not even a speck of mold!

Aren't the payout tables a "recommendation" and not a "requirement"?

I use the PDGA payout tables because I take my laptop to the event and the Electronic TD Report has a built-in payout calculator that is just too dang easy to use. :)

I feel that a flat payout gets people who are in the middle of the pack more merch and most people even if they come in last cash can get a disc or two rather than getting 5 dollars.

Maybe the curve makes sense in the pro field, where it is theoretically more exciting when that last putt is worth $300. But not in the ams.



Why shouldn't the last putt in a large Armature tournament have excitement and be worth more than one more disc. :mad:On the other hand at most large tournaments the winner gets a basket. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Post deleted by Znash

Armature



Dude,

It's Amateur.

It looks like your paying way too much for that college your attending. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I started using spell cheek and some times that's what you get.

Well armature is a word.

Main Entry: ar�ma�ture
Pronunciation: '�r-m&-"chur, -ch&r, -"tyur, -"tur
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin armatura armor, equipment, from armatus
1 : an organ or structure (as teeth or thorns) for offense or defense
2 a : a piece of soft iron or steel that connects the poles of a magnet or of adjacent magnets b : a usually rotating part of an electric machine (as a generator or motor) which consists essentially of coils of wire around a metal core and in which electric current is induced or in which the input current interacts with a magnetic field to produce torque c : the movable part of an electromagnetic device (as a loudspeaker) d : a framework used by a sculptor to support a figure being modeled in a plastic material e : FRAMEWORK 1b <the armature of the book derives from fourteenth century England -- Stanley Kauffmann>

It just doesn't mean...

Main Entry: am�a�teur
Pronunciation: 'a-m&-(")t&r, -"tur, -"tyur, -"chur, -ch&r
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: French, from Latin amator lover, from amare to love
1 : DEVOTEE, ADMIRER
2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

So you could beat me at a spelling contest, but how about on the course? I quess will find out at the Pig.

So you could beat me at a spelling contest, but how about on the course? I quess will find out at the Pig.



If I could make it to that one I would beat BOTH of you :D

You beat me by 5 at BG Am's, so I am not going to say I will come up there and kick you into the dirt. Considering I have never seen the courses but from the pictures, you have a distinct advantage over me. I am going to try and get that Friday off so I can get up there early and at least check out the courses briefly. Win or lose I will have a great time there, my friends and coach, who have all played there said the courses fit my style. We will see what happens in a few weeks.

What's stopping you? Scared!

Play Mt. ariy on Friday It's the harder of the two. Where are you going to stay? Is it still my place?

I am waiting on my wifes college friend to get back to us. I will call her again tonight. Considering she has not gotten back to us, it will be a likely chance I will be staying with you. Thanks again.

PS. If I stay with you, we can take my car from Dayton to Cincy. I get +50mpg on the highway!

I have 2 tournaments in MI that I am already playing that weekend :D

Plus dont you want me to give you a break from the constant whooping I put on you :D(other then Hambrick)

I have 2 tournaments in MI that I am already playing that weekend :D

Plus dont you want me to give you a break from the constant whooping I put on you :D(other then Hambrick)


I like the comp

I like the comp



Its hardly competition when you dont bring any game to the table :eek: :D

Maybe if you changed your driving form and changed your putt you would be as good as you think you are :D

Maybe if I had seen the courses or had some practice before the round, or if I found a magic disc or a new shoot or maybe it was a bad day.

Im just trying to help you out :D

Much appreciated :D:cool:

I dont really care about the flat payout
i won a tourney a couple weeks ago by 10 and got like 5$ more merch than 2nd and 10 more than 3rd and so on.

I wasnt mad because i played well and the prizes dont matter that much to me anyway. if they did i would be playing open and playing for the best prize $$$$ I'm content to play for pride for now because soon i will up against the pros for the $$$

You're also like the biggest sandbagger in the country :eek:

look who's talking man who has won two A tiers and still are advanced

look who's talking man who has won two A tiers and still are advanced



Im still rated under 950 :D

Dont worry Mike. Ill be on the road and playing Open next year so you dont have to wait that long to take my money :D

By they way. Nice pic on the cover of DGWN.

You're also like the biggest sandbagger in the country :eek:



Naw he just plays in the most competitive state. So he is only baggin a little bit. :D:D:o

Ask Slater he went back with his tail between his legs after Dogwood :eek: