As disc golf events, rules and courses all get better I and some folks at Nockamixon have been wondering why Disc Golf does not have "Hazards" to go along with casual and out of bounds areas?

I am not completely familiar with ball golf hazards but my understanding is that they behave similarly to Out of Bounds except for one major way:

Imagine if in disc golf we had the ability to designate a shallow rocky stream as a Hazard, not OB. Then, my understanding is that, the thrower would have the choice of standing in the shallow water with no penalty and throwing or moving out of the hazard and taking a penalty throw.

I guess the equivalent would be "Unsafe Lie" and not designating the stream as OB.

But why don't we have "Hazards" and wouldn't it be a good idea to add that option?

I think the prevalence of brush and low limbs (at least in Oregon) is akin enough to hazards to not require the addition of them. I know that blackberry bushes not only impede my stance, but cause me to lose blood when I throw into them.

Couldn't the natural terrain of our courses in some areas be considered hazards?

True enough. I suppose with ground surface conditions not as vital in dg as it is in bg, our hazards would likely always be played from.

I suppose we could designate them as course designers anyway, just to let folks know that they are not OB, but if you want to avoid a penalty throw (Unsafe Lie) you have to play from within the area.

The difference is when you hit a ball out of the water the shot is already penalized, while the water plays little to no role in the throwing of a disc.

At one of the Portland courses, there are large piles of brush in two or three of the fairways waiting to be burned. People played them just as you would a sandtrap: punishing to land in, and to be avoided. Perhaps for Worlds, you and the other volunteers can simply pile all of the downed limbs and crap into huge mounds in the middle of fairways. :D

One idea I had for creating a hazard area on otherwise open and flat fairways would be to lace an area with 1-2 foot size stones. This would create an area that would make run-ups difficult to impossible - sorta like a streambed but without the water. This might be more analogous to a sand trap than a hazard, but oh well...

If this rocky area was in a strategic location on a par 4 or 5 length hole, This might be a cool and realtively cheap way to encourage accuracy and create more defined risk/reward landing zones.

I have been thinking of the idea of fairway bunkers. Maybe they could be sand or those tiny playground style stones(sorry i can think of what they are called) just something that is a contrasting surface to the existing surrounding surfaces. If your disc is surrounded by this then you cannot take any run-up. Sounds almost pointless but it would be an easy hazard like thing to make a course a bit more difficult. The key is to put the bunkers in the right places ie. put one in the fairway in the perfect landing spot for your drive on a 2 shot hole.

Just a thought.

DG Needs "HAZARDS" ???

What, poison ivy, poison oak, poison sumac, bull nettle, West Nile virus, Mesquite trees with 2'' thorns, fire ants, copperheads, water moccasins, and rattlesnakes aren't hazardous enough?!

This game is HAZARDOUS down here!

Sheesh! :eek: :D

Bill has those at Flip City. Our rule was that any rock larger than your fist should be treated as an integral part of the course.

I like the idea of having no run-up hazard areas. Golf does that with sand traps by not allowing you to take a practice swing or ground your club in the sand trap.

How are you defining "no run-up" and does that include "no step past"?

"Fake lakes" that are OB are very effective for what you desire. They can put strategy into deuceable par 3s. You put the OB "lake" from about 320 to 350 from the pad on a 380 to 450 foot hole and, voil�, golfers suddenly have to decide whether to lay up or go for it from the tee. Lay up/pitch up/putt for par, or else risk a 4 in order to have a chance at a 2.

How are you defining "no run-up" and does that include "no step past"?



"No step past" would be including is my thinking. Just staying on your mark til release is not enough of a "penalty" in a trap area imo.

Rhett, I like the fake lake thing, i was more trying to think of an area that you are forced to play from though with something to penalize you for being there. Also it would add a nice unique-ish look to some holes as well as serve a purpose. If made correctly they could work as nice looking skip stoppers on shorter dogleg holes and things like that. Alot of possibilities with such a thing i think.

I think we already have the hazard thing in disc golf with no need to change any rules whatsoever. You land in a big bush of poison oak or ivy, and you can try to throw from there. I will seriously consider taking an unsafe lie penalty and relocating.

The "sandtrap" is pretty much impossible to duplicate in disc golf. The ball you hit out of the sand in BG is already penalized because it is so much harder to hit out of sand. Taking away a runup doesn't do nearly as much. Putting in river stones will cause injuries because, let's face it, we have world champions who will break their hand on a tree trying to get too much out of a bad situation rather than layup or play safe. People will still runup on river stones and hurt themselves.

And no runup doesn't really rob you of that much anyway as long as you don't let it psych you out.

River stones...no way, I am not speaking of anything that was dangerous. I know someone mentioned them but I was thinking of the little rocks they make the kids playground area out of(which is tough to run in but far from dangerous) No rule would have to be changed, you would just have a "no-run up/step-past" bunker.

True no-runup is not THAT big of a penalty but it is enough of one to change the stratagy on alot of par 4-5 holes. No biggy really just something to add another aspect to those holes out there that need something else.

Would be easy to add to the rules:

A TD may specify certain areas as "No-runup zones". In a "No-runup zone", a player shall not run up or step past their mark at anytime during their throw. Running up or failure to stay behind your mark before showing balance before advancing forward in these areas will result in a stance violation"

or somehting like that.

Here in Winfield at Cherry Street Park if you land in a flower bed, play sturcture, or exersise area. You have to throw the disc upside down.

The "sandtrap" is pretty much impossible to duplicate in disc golf. The ball you hit out of the sand in BG is already penalized because it is so much harder to hit out of sand.



Here is a concept for a "sand trap": Put a 7-12 foot high hedge (or chainlink fence if you want to be chintzy) up at say 320' (500' fairway)from the tee that blocks a good portion of the fairway (1/3 to 1/2). If you land too close to it, your only option will be to overhand your throw. If you are really close to the hedge, you will have to pitch it over and sacrifice a ton of distance.

You could also do the same on 275' hole. Put the hedge at 220'.

There's a course in Seatac, WA that has a hole that can't (by 96% of the golfers out there) be reached from the tee. It's a narrow 450', with a 7-8 foot abrupt elevation change 380' down the fairway. I choose not to throw a driver off the tee, because a Roc shot sets me up farther away from the abrupt ledge, thereby providing a better look at the pin. It incorporates the idea you're talking about, and it makes the hole super fun.

The "sandtrap" is pretty much impossible to duplicate in disc golf. The ball you hit out of the sand in BG is already penalized because it is so much harder to hit out of sand.

Here is a concept for a "sand trap": Put a 7-12 foot high hedge (or chainlink fence if you want to be chintzy) up at say 320' (500' fairway)from the tee that blocks a good portion of the fairway (1/3 to 1/2). If you land too close to it, your only option will be to overhand your throw. If you are really close to the hedge, you will have to pitch it over and sacrifice a ton of distance.

You could also do the same on 275' hole. Put the hedge at 220'.

A net on poles. Would need less yellow rope. Jon, Brett: for the Fairwell?

Or really cheap sheets from the Salvation Army with little holes cut in them so they don't catch so much wind...

There's a course in Seatac, WA that has a hole that can't (by 96% of the golfers out there) be reached from the tee. It's a narrow 450', with a 7-8 foot abrupt elevation change 380' down the fairway. I choose not to throw a driver off the tee, because a Roc shot sets me up farther away from the abrupt ledge, thereby providing a better look at the pin. It incorporates the idea you're talking about, and it makes the hole super fun.



Are you talking about hole 15? Where the second shot must go high enough to clear the elevation change but low enough to clear the large branch about 100 feet before the polehole.

I think that's the one. Right after wickedly difficult 14? Yeah, that sounds about right! :D

I can never remember the numbers, but it is the second hole after the "back corner" of the course.

Yep, you were right. It is 15. This webpage lists it as 6, which it was before the additional 9 went in. The elevation change isn't rapidly obvious, but is visible in the "midrange" picture.

http://www.leftcoastdiscgolf.com/index.php?option=com_zoom&Itemid=42&catid=169

Fairway bunkers can work fine for disc golf if they have any depth or height. Footing is poor on sand, and/or you have to throw over the front edge, much the same as a hedge.

These are all excellent ideas and I hope some TDs and designers take them and run with them, and let's continue that discussion, but my main question had to do with whether or not disc golf needs "Hazards" added to our rulebook as an option along side Out of Bounds and casual area (not a term actually in the rulebook, but a concept).

What I'm asking about specifically is the way ball golf uses out of bounds versus hazard designations (i.e. white stakes - OB, red stakes - Hazard) and would this have a use in disc golf.

So far I'm not sure about it. Like Rhett pointed out our "Unsafe Lie" (soon to be Undesirable Lie) works similarly.

The specific situation has to do with a creek that varies in water height where the Course Designer would prefer not to make it OB.

The casual relief/special condition rules work fine for defining areas that operate like hazards. We're going to define some marked areas at Highbridge where the player moves their lie to a drop zone, without penalty, if they land in it. We think it will operate more as a psychological hazard, although moving their lie back to a drop zone will result in costing some players a throw if they don't execute the longer throw than they would have had. The drop zone position may also be more obstructed than they would have had.

Is that legal Chuck? I thought it was decided in the Bridge Over OB discussion and subsequent PDGA RC Q & A that what you propose is not within our rules of play. Specifically: Treating a special condition/casual area like OB but without the penalty stroke. The borders of such areas do not behave like Out of Bounds necessarily.

I do think the "Undesirable Lie (Unsafe Lie) " answers the hazard question that I am asking, I just have to wonder still whether the "hazard" rule used in bg wouldn't offer some greater clarity to dg rules and play.

Fairway bunkers can work fine for disc golf if they have any depth or height. Footing is poor on sand, and/or you have to throw over the front edge, much the same as a hedge.



On second reading this is an excellent idea. It would involve a fair amount of maintaining to avoid the sand getting too settled. But on a 6 or 7 hundred foot hole, defining the desired landing area with some well placed sand traps would add a decent amount of strategy to the hole.

Dave is smart.

Cape Henlopen Course: One giant sandtrap.

Just read 804.01B on Special Conditions. The TD has the option to specify a penalty or not when using a drop zone for a special conditions area.

Cool!

I have a few other descriptive words for Cape.

I love going to that tournament. The camping and night walk to the Great Dune the night before and then on the day of I sit at the beach with my book, cooler, chair and umbrella.

The cool thing this year is that the day after that there will be a Monday PDGA at the new Trap Pond course, which I have heard good things about...

I don't think DG needs "HAZARDS." One of me is more than enough.

So Chuck, to be clear, can a Course Designer designate a stream as not being OB but as an "unofficial" hazard where if the player chooses not to play from within the hazard a drop zone can be provided? Or must they play it under the "Unsafe Lie" rule?

I'm pretty sure they can do the latter.

I'm not sure why the casual relief rule doesn't work? We talked about an alternative for a hole at Worlds. But upon reflection, the regular casual relief rule seems to work just fine. If the player doesn't like their lie options within 5m back on LOP, they can then invoke the Unsafe Lie rule and take a penalty to get out of the stream for sure since the wet part of the stream isn't more than maybe 3m-4m wide.

I'm not sure why the casual relief rule doesn't work? We talked about an alternative for a hole at Worlds. But upon reflection, the regular casual relief rule seems to work just fine. If the player doesn't like their lie options within 5m back on LOP, they can then invoke the Unsafe Lie rule and take a penalty to get out of the stream for sure since the wet part of the stream isn't more than maybe 3m-4m wide.



Don't you think it would be useful, in course design, to be able to designate an area as a "hazard" where the player has a choice of playing it from where it is with no penalty, or must take a penalty throw and play from a dropzone or other option like along flight path? Isn't this different from other options currently available?

how is this hazard?

http://www.stanford.edu/class/sts145/Images/pitfall.gif

I think Special Conditions 804.01B allows a variety of options to be specified including playing it like the conventional ball golf hazard where you play it where it lies or go to a drop zone with penalty.

Back in the old days (late '70's) when we were playing object golf we played all pavement as a stroke -- but you played it from where it was. In other words -- a stroke but no distance. It worked well and I believe it would work well in certain scenarios in disc golf -- but I'm sure the uniqeness of the rule would initially meet strong resistance.

The idea being, if there's a "hazard" like a parking lot or fence, you could try to throw over/close to it. If you ended up in it -- it cost you a stroke but you just played it from there. It speeds things up because it avoids the provisional throw and the "where it went out" discussion. I know -- it's odd, I've played casual rounds with it in place -- seems to work.

how is this hazard?

http://www.stanford.edu/class/sts145/Images/pitfall.gif



Looks like hole 12(?) at Circle R on Pleasure Island...

The guy is a ringer for Jim Olsen Jr. too.

Back in the old days (late '70's) when we were playing object golf we played all pavement as a stroke -- but you played it from where it was. In other words -- a stroke but no distance. It worked well and I believe it would work well in certain scenarios in disc golf -- but I'm sure the uniqeness of the rule would initially meet strong resistance.

The idea being, if there's a "hazard" like a parking lot or fence, you could try to throw over/close to it. If you ended up in it -- it cost you a stroke but you just played it from there. It speeds things up because it avoids the provisional throw and the "where it went out" discussion. I know -- it's odd, I've played casual rounds with it in place -- seems to work.



Interesting, but not the equivalent of a disc golf hazard.

Chuck, have you checked this out? Under current rules can you designate an area as a special condition and allow the player to choose to play from within it, no penalty, or move to a dropzone with penalty?

I didn't think that was possible under current rules.

The problem with that scenario and a likely reason why it was never implemented is that even though a penalty stroke is enforced, play continues in the hazard. There's a reason why areas are designated hazards. (safety, property not part of the park, etc.) Even though it solves a lot of arguments and speeds up play, you don't want further activity in the very area you were trying to prevent play in the first place.

It adds to the hazard concept.
You threw in the street, now go play in traffic. :cool:

As I read 804.01B, there's a lot of flexibility provided. I just don't think TDs have thought to use this rule to create more hazard variety.

I want a rule where I can, as a director, declare and mark an area as a hazard. I want players who throw a disc that lands in this area to have the choice of taking a penalty throw and moving to a drop zone OR to play it where it is with no penalty throw.

Is this permissible under existing rules?


804.01 SPECIAL CONDITIONS
A. Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course shall be clearly defined and disseminated to all players prior to the start of the tournament.

B. The drop zone may be utilized in special conditions. The director must announce prior to the tournament how it is to be used and if a penalty throw is to be assessed. If no penalty is announced prior to the tournament, none will be assessed for use of the drop zone in special conditions.

C. No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Competition Director of the PDGA.



Seems like it would be ok. No?

Paragraph B seems to give you the leeway to do that.

there once was a time when disc golf was played in natural environments and made use of the trees and terrain so generously provided by the earth itself. it was played by people who valued time spent on community land shared with people engaging in other activities.

every contrived "hazard" moves the game further from its roots down a path that eventually and inevitably lands at the doorsteps of its elitist, bourgeoise namesake. away from its earthbound roots and into a manufactured future. away from a deep attachment to harmony, co-existance and awareness of others and towards the fractured cacophony that seeks to turn us all into one more Mr. Anderson.

Not sure if you are aware of this Pat but elitist and bourgeoisie are antonyms not synonyms. That means they have opposite meanings.

Main Entry: elit�ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY 1 <elitism in choosing new members>
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

Main Entry: bour�geoi�sie
Pronunciation: "bu(r)zh-"w�-'zE
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from bourgeois
1 : MIDDLE CLASS
2 : a social order dominated by bourgeois

C�mon intelligentsia wannabe, get it right.

Furthermore, having more options is freeing, not confining.

there once was a time when disc golf was played in natural environments and made use of the trees and terrain so generously provided by the earth itself.



Yep, time to get those baskets out of the ground and throw at the thrid tree from the left again. :cool:

there once was a time when disc golf was played in natural environments and made use of the trees and terrain so generously provided by the earth itself. It was played by people who valued time spent on community land shared with people engaging in other activities.




I'm not sure having a "corporate" version of DG negates the roots of the sport. There are many who still celebrate the early days in parks. Seems to me Snapper still has a group that plays object golf on Sundays and I know of several parks where players throw lids or golf discs at objects. We still have a retro event with park objects, trees, early versions of targets and homemade contraptions. The community baseball field is normally not OB unless a group is using it. Some DG groups might have that as an OB hazard when playing the holes near it and other groups might have no one on the field in the same round when they play those holes.

there once was a time when disc golf was played in natural environments and made use of the trees and terrain so generously provided by the earth itself.



Yep, time to get those baskets out of the ground and throw at the thrid tree from the left again. :cool:



We'd make little wooden hoops out of sticks and hang them from trees at my farm. The first manufactured directional targets...

Lot's of tree hugging going on back then in the "natural" days of the 70s, when the air, land and water was pure and clean like our elitist bourgeoisie attitudes... :D

LOL!!!! :D

Pat would have us hand carving discs out of dead trees and throwing at holes dug in the ground. No use for plastic or metal, right? :D:D:D

every time i take you off ignore hoping to find something remotely resembling intelligence, i am sorely disappointed. today was no different.

thanks for the dictionary definition. i'm glad you looked it up.

however, had you bothered to dig a bit deeper and truly learn about the word, you would know that the bourgeoise evolved from the capitalists. true, the bourgeoise were more or less middle class, as opposed to purely wage-earners or members of the prelate/nobility. with marx, however, it becomes clear that after the bourgeoise acheived a certain dominance by overthrewing their feudal lords they ended up fighting to their deaths to prevent the rising up of the wage earning class.

so while the root of the word may refer to a "middle class", when used to describe class divisions, "bourgeoise" is commonly refers to an upper-middle, capitalist and materialistic class.

looking up a word in a dictionary and then claiming some sort of real familiarity with it is a bit shallow. too bad its the type of response many of us have come to expect from you.

i am not surprised that you would attempt to equate artificial options as "more flexibility". that misses the entire point of my post. again, disappointing, but not surprising.

Wah!
:D
LOL!

I'm not sure having a "corporate" version of DG negates the roots of the sport. There are many who still celebrate the early days in parks. Seems to me Snapper still has a group that plays object golf on Sundays and I know of several parks where players throw lids or golf discs at objects. We still have a retro event with park objects, trees, early versions of targets and homemade contraptions. The community baseball field is normally not OB unless a group is using it. Some DG groups might have that as an OB hazard when playing the holes near it and other groups might have no one on the field in the same round when they play those holes.

negates, no. obscures, yes. that those activities take place is wonderful, imo.

Too fun, even if you take the definitions at their face value Pat is correct. Many of the people who play BG are middle class snobs who are trying to prove they are part of the "elite" by playing a sport they consider as part of "elite" society.

That aside, neither vision is either good or bad. The back to basics view that Pat has is great, I play rounds of guerilla golf 3 times a week and I like it much better than "groomed" golf. On the other hand, I can also see the advantages of what Nick is proposing. The idea is to segregate players based on skill. Nick is simply proposing another tool that a TD can use to make the ( can't resist) elite disc golfers work that much harder.

There once was a sport played upon the land LINKING the village w/ the ocean. It was a sport that shared it's playing surface w/ sheep. It is now devoid of said sheep as this land is valued for it's history upon which the game was played. As the game progressed new obstacles were incorporated to add to the challenge and interest that an everyday game might bring. Discgolf needs more tools for designers to utilize the full potential of our valued land.. If you are so set in the way things should always stay the same throw ROCKS at fenceposts There has been no progression in that sport whatsoever..

ce /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I like the idea of an obstruction as a hazzard that someone proposed like a line of spruce trees, a hedge, or mound. I played @ Horizon's last weekend and there were some piles of mulch in the middle of a hole. The hole wasn't quite long enough for them to come into play but it did @ least force some to throw with more hyzer than planned and have to throw over/around them if they came up short.
In 10 years or so we'll all be throwing 500' plus and running out of space for 'good' courses since everything will seem short. Adding hazzards seems like a good way to add another element.

and now the use of said land is restricted to the monied few.

thanks for making my point.

to all: i'm not saying "progress" or change is bad. i'm just saying that we looks track of our roots at our own peril. the roots of that links land is NOT the game. it is the villagers, and the paths they took on their treks to the sea. it is how they passed their time on those paths. so when we honor our roots, which is a great thing to do, we have to be careful that we dont lose track of what those roots truly are and to whom they belong.

Gimme a frickin' break, you hippy.

You better retire every last one of your golf discs and throw with only 119g Wham-Os, or their equivalent, if you want to "enjoy the land" with the other "land users". Modern golf discs are dangerous. They are not suitable for use in a multi-use environment.

Just like whacking a frickin' titanium covered ball with a giant high-performance ball-whackin' stick is not suitable for a mixed use environment.

nothing could be farther from the truth, hair farmer. many of our courses, still challenging with the new plastic, have walker/bike paths running through them. we share veterans with walkers, horticulturists, model rocketeers, roller bladers, horses, rennaissaince fair gamers, and host of others. rather typical for these parts. (and who woulda though texas would be so big on tolerance! :D)

And Donald Ross, one of the most revered golf course architects, came from those humble village roots by the sea. If you read his journals, you'll find that he emulated the Scottish seaside topography on his American course designs (witness Pinehurst #2 on TV this weekend) by building pot bunkers and domed greens. This way, he gave those that couldn't travel across the pond an experience similar to those of the villagers.

I guess Mr. Ross was the first one guilty of losing track of his roots? Or did he do us all a favor by reminding us of those roots in his more than 350 course designs?

Some disc golf course designers I know have read and studied Ross and other golf designers' techniques and philosophies as a way to better our methods. I suggest that doing so only makes disc golf better for all.

jon, you're on the verge of missing my point as badly as nick did. emulating the scottish is not a bad thing. transferring land from common use to use reserved for the elite is. in the context of the disc golf hazard discussion, adding a plethora of artificial hazards makes the whole things, well, artificial. far better to find a way to design course that use the existing feature of the land to create challenging courses. Mr Ross no doubt does us a favor by reprising his native topography on north american soil. but, imo, he (or rather the owners of the land), commit a crime by removing that land from use by all and placing it into the hands of an elite few. as disc golf embraces pay-to-play single use courses, we commit the same crime.

nothing could be farther from the truth, hair farmer. many of our courses, still challenging with the new plastic, have walker/bike paths running through them.


I didn't say that we weren't currently throwing dangerous projectiles in the midst of baby strollers, did I? I said that our modern high speed golf discs were ill-suited for use in a multi-use park setting.

I stand by that statement.

Just because an elderly park walker or baby in a stroller haven't been hit by an errant drive at Veteran's yet doesn't mean that it is wise to lauch discs in their general direction.

Unless those discs are 119g Wham-Os.

we (usually) wait until the baby strollers and the geriatrics are clear.

Many of the people who play BG are middle class snobs who are trying to prove they are part of the "elite" by playing a sport they consider as part of "elite" society.


Wow. Talk about "anti-tolerance". You got it coming out of the wazoo.

Believe it or not, plenty of ball golfers just enjoy whacking a little ball with high performance stick. They like to see if they can get better at it. Lots and lots of them get the sickness where all they can think about is whacking that ball just a little farther. Gotta get the next "best stick", or maybe the next "best ball" will get them over the hump. They dream about retiring and playing enough to get good enough for the senior tour. They play little tournies at the municipal course or, if they can afford it, the country club. All they want is to get better and place higher at the next club championship. Ball golf is their competitive outlet.

Sound familiar?

Here's one you probably won't believe: not all country clubs charge $1 million to join. They don't even all charge $30k or more. Many many of them are downright affordable, and cost less than traveling all over the country to play disc golf tourneys. :eek:

Believe it or not, not all ball golfers are snobby wanna-be elitists that are out to make fun of you.

Kind of like how not all disc golfers are pot-smoking low-life losers.

Fairway bunkers can work fine for disc golf if they have any depth or height. Footing is poor on sand, and/or you have to throw over the front edge, much the same as a hedge.



I agree...Try playing SF Safari....Golden Gate Park is basically a Giant Sandbox with HUGE trees growing in it. Your lie will most likly be in "Sand" EVERY throw, Tee and Fairway. It definatly make it a challenge, and KILLS my knees :p

:D

I want a rule where I can, as a director, declare and mark an area as a hazard. I want players who throw a disc that lands in this area to have the choice of taking a penalty throw and moving to a drop zone OR to play it where it is with no penalty throw.

Is this permissible under existing rules?


804.01 SPECIAL CONDITIONS
A. Rules governing special conditions that may exist on the course shall be clearly defined and disseminated to all players prior to the start of the tournament.

B. The drop zone may be utilized in special conditions. The director must announce prior to the tournament how it is to be used and if a penalty throw is to be assessed. If no penalty is announced prior to the tournament, none will be assessed for use of the drop zone in special conditions.

C. No rules may be stipulated which conflict with the PDGA Rules of Play, unless approved by the Competition Director of the PDGA.



Seems like it would be ok. No?



According to the "Rules" a TD has the ability to set the course as He/She see fit. Weather that be declaring OB's, Hazards, special conditions, etc.

For example, at the KOA Campground in Willits, we have a "Poison Oak Tree" on Hole 15 that has been looked at by the Guiness Book as possibly the "Largest Poision Oak Bush"

You can literaly walk inside the bush and it is 10-15ft over your head still, with a Trunk that is more than 36" across at the base. I declare it as a Hazard where you can take relief straight back with no penalty (other than it puts you quite a bit further down the hill) or take a 1 stroke penalty and move your lie sideways to the fairway.

This ruling not only saves the players time AND strokes but also ALOT of cash on Technu :D

Not sure if you are aware of this Pat but elitist and bourgeoisie are antonyms not synonyms. That means they have opposite meanings.

Main Entry: elit�ism
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite
2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : SNOBBERY 1 <elitism in choosing new members>
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

Main Entry: bour�geoi�sie
Pronunciation: "bu(r)zh-"w�-'zE
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from bourgeois
1 : MIDDLE CLASS
2 : a social order dominated by bourgeois

C�mon intelligentsia wannabe, get it right.

Furthermore, having more options is freeing, not confining.



I think Nick for got this....

":D"

there once was a time when disc golf was played in natural environments and made use of the trees and terrain so generously provided by the earth itself. It was played by people who valued time spent on community land shared with people engaging in other activities.




I'm not sure having a "corporate" version of DG negates the roots of the sport. There are many who still celebrate the early days in parks. Seems to me Snapper still has a group that plays object golf on Sundays and I know of several parks where players throw lids or golf discs at objects. We still have a retro event with park objects, trees, early versions of targets and homemade contraptions. The community baseball field is normally not OB unless a group is using it. Some DG groups might have that as an OB hazard when playing the holes near it and other groups might have no one on the field in the same round when they play those holes.



Ah, Roots...

There is still a group of guys that play the 27 hole OBJECT couse at Sonoma State University every Sunday. It was first played during Indian Summer in the mid-late 70's.

They play NO WHERE else........thats tradition... :D

jon, you're on the verge of missing my point as badly as nick did. emulating the scottish is not a bad thing. transferring land from common use to use reserved for the elite is. in the context of the disc golf hazard discussion, adding a plethora of artificial hazards makes the whole things, well, artificial. far better to find a way to design course that use the existing feature of the land to create challenging courses. Mr Ross no doubt does us a favor by reprising his native topography on north american soil. but, imo, he (or rather the owners of the land), commit a crime by removing that land from use by all and placing it into the hands of an elite few. as disc golf embraces pay-to-play single use courses, we commit the same crime.



So, if I own 50 acres of land, I'm elitist (oh, no, now I'm a criminal) if I design a disc golf course, possibly including some built hazards, and charge people a nominal fee to cover the costs of construction and maintenance? Now THAT'S a pretty elitist attitude. Just who's land do you think it is, anyway? Certainly not YOURS. I can even make rules on MY land that say you can't use alcohol or tobacco or drugs or even play there wearing sandals.

Now, on to public lands. Your argument is specious, to say the least, when you disregard the primary reason that parks authorities choose to locate disc golf courses away from other park activities. That reason is safety. When discs can come flying in from over 300 feet away on unsuspecting park users, the risk management people perk right up. Just because you have courses with walking paths and picnic areas close by or even IN the disc golf course, doesn't make it right. That's old school design and management. As to the pay for play issue, most park districts charge softball, soccer, even ultimate leagues for use of the facilites. They don't charge folks for kite flying, dog walking, playing catch. Sometimes economic factors lead them to charge fees for individual pursuits, but generally those fees inure back to the facility that generates the revenue. In other words, a disc golf greens fee would be used to maintain and improve the disc golf course.

I'm trying to figure out just who "the elite" are that you are afraid would have exclusive use of the disc golf course if it was made pay-to-play. I'm sure that a $3 use fee isn't going to keep away those "non-elite" that show up with an $8 six pack of beer in their cooler and $40 worth of pot in their golf bag. (tongue not so firmly planted in cheek)

I'm sure you've done more than your share of volunteer work and fund raising to get courses put in. There's nothing at all wrong with asking others to carry some of the load, if it means the difference between having a place to play or having it turned into picnic areas. Or is it OK with you, Pat, if the Jones Family Annual Reunion plops itself down in the middle of the 5th fairway, complete with volleyball and sack races? After all, it IS a mixed use area, right?

I'm going to go throw some discs....conversation to continue after the weekend.

Last I heard St. Andrews could be played by anyone....

ce

At least two discussions or debates are going on regarding roots. While it is true that the "early days" did have mostly all free to play courses, it is not true that they weren't contrived. Most of the early courses were completely contrived on school campuses. The targets were light poles, trashcans, electrical boxes, telephone poles, etc. The hazards were cars, buildings, benches etc. I never played on a noncontrived course until I played at La Mirada in 1977. The Mach ones seemed a lot less contrived/artificial than the "courses" I had played on since 1958.

I think river rocks placed bunker-like would be interesting. It's hard to balance and putting from that kind of surface is a challenge.

So on the original question concerning whether disc golf needs or has a Hazard rule (relating to OB and Special Conditions- Casual), it appears that it is within our rules of play to designate an area as a hazard and specify that a player whose disc lands in this hazard may:

A) Play within the hazard with no stroke

or

B) Relocate their lie to a drop zone and add a penalty throw to their score.

This will be of great use for several holes I can think of. Though I am not sure of the socio-political repercussions of this option being used; I suspect it will create far more young republicans... :D

True enough
Despite a 100 pound greens fee (over 150 bucks)
anyone can play, if you arrive early enough. I was
lucky when I played because my dad paid and we
had an arranged tee time. I talked to some guys
that were waiting since 3:00 the previous morning just
to play though.

Putting my two cents into the conversation (one pence) (two
yen), I would not like to have a "pay to play" disc golf course as
the only course near me, but on special occasions i certainly
do not fret too much. I don't really understand the payments at public park courses, but not all parks departments are run like the
wonderful parks in North Carolina are. We have to draw a serious line here between public and private courses here, although St. Andrews is a public course and it is certainly "pay and pray to play". The bottom line is that someone has to do the upkeep on a course, whether that is a parks department for the benefit of the community or a private individual who is putting up his own cash. One of the reasons why I like DG more then BG is because it has more of a casual, carefree attitude, and one of the first things that drew me to discs was that it was priced so reasonably. But if you go to tourneys every week and buy new discs and equipment all the time (not to mention beer and supplements) the money can easily pile up. Sorry for the ramble,
but i am kind of bored and not able to play enough Disc golf in Japan. I would actually pay a hundred bucks to play 18 holes of DG right now. Talk about jones'n
FOR WHAT ITS WORTH

Many of the people who play BG are middle class snobs who are trying to prove they are part of the "elite" by playing a sport they consider as part of "elite" society.


Wow. Talk about "anti-tolerance". You got it coming out of the wazoo.

Believe it or not, plenty of ball golfers just enjoy whacking a little ball with high performance stick. They like to see if they can get better at it. Lots and lots of them get the sickness where all they can think about is whacking that ball just a little farther. Gotta get the next "best stick", or maybe the next "best ball" will get them over the hump. They dream about retiring and playing enough to get good enough for the senior tour. They play little tournies at the municipal course or, if they can afford it, the country club. All they want is to get better and place higher at the next club championship. Ball golf is their competitive outlet.

Sound familiar?

Here's one you probably won't believe: not all country clubs charge $1 million to join. They don't even all charge $30k or more. Many many of them are downright affordable, and cost less than traveling all over the country to play disc golf tourneys. :eek:

Believe it or not, not all ball golfers are snobby wanna-be elitists that are out to make fun of you.

Kind of like how not all disc golfers are pot-smoking low-life losers.



OUCH! That hurt. Boy I love the English language:

All

Most

Many

Some

Each has a different definition and is meant to convey a different meaning. I didn't use All or Most because I didn't mean to. I used many because, well I know many ball golfers that are snobs. Take those guys in Georgia that won't let... women play at their club, which one was it?

I stand by my assertion because... well it's correct. On the other hand, I know some, nay many, great ball golfers who are mellow about their sport and take exactly the approach you outlined. But that doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of snobs in the sport who take a fairly nasty approach to the game (or that there are many very expensive Country Clubs that some wanna-be's are trying to get into).

Now you might make an argument that I should have used some instead of many... or even a few instead of many and I would have to concede the point since I have no actual data other than anecdotal.

Without going back and reading Pat's post, it may have been that he was all inclusive in his damnation of BG. If so then I should have been more careful and posted that Pat has a point, not a universal one but nonetheless, a point.

:D

BTW - If someone were to make an argument that there are some snobs in DG, those who feel that it should only be played one way with certain rules that are "true" to the sport, I would be hard pressed to disagree.

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.

we already have one HAZARD in raleigh, and thats plenty

I know I'm a little late with this response -- but the areas designated as "hazard" aren't any kind of a safety issue. These areas aren't intended to manage where the game is played but rather to increase the challenge. The obvious example in the MADC being Brandywine. There's low rock walls all through the park. Make one side of the wall a "hazard". #1 has a wall that parallels the fairway that the basket sits only about 30' from. I routinely throw on the "wrong" side of the wall because it just doesn't matter what side I'm on. Make the side without the basket a "hazard" and an easy three (on a calm day) becomes much more challenging.

Same type of thing works at most courses in my neighborhood. Pavement like park roads or easily visible, lightly used driveways make great "hazards". There are times it's worth the run down the pavement just to get the extra distance and hope that you can spin-off it as the disc slows.

I know - the idea of taking a stroke and playing it from where it is seems odd -- once you get over the oddity of it it seems to play out pretty fairly.

Not for the first time we have about 4 seperate discussions going on at once.

1) Can we use "Hazards" in disc golf similarly to the way they use them in Ball Golf? Not OB or Casual Relief or even Unsafe Lie, but something new called a "Hazard", where the player can throw from within the Hazard, no penalty, or move to a drop zone, penalty.
2) Doing "1)" would result in us becoming an elitist sport. We need to be more like sandal wearing hippies and not label a stand of beautiful thorny rose bushes or shallow stream as a hazard, but become "ONE" with them!
3) Figure out ways of creating more interesting "Obstacles" for our disc golf fairways.
4) Let people take the stroke and play from Out of Bounds if they want.

4 distinct discussions, 2 of which are unrelated to Hazards ("Obstacles" and "Out of Bounds") and one which is complete and utter paranoid foolishness.

I love the ideas for different fairway obstacles though. Sand traps midway on 600'+ holes would be very cool. Nocky has one of those 10 foot deep bunkers on hole 11 and it is really something to play out of.

There are Hazards , when Playing Disc Golf on a Ball Golf course.

Water , Greens , Bunkers , Ball Golfers ( Just kidding ).

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.



This is true. As I'm typing this, I have large scratches all over my legs from patches of thorns and I've nursing poison ivy for about a week now.

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.



This is true. As I'm typing this, I have large scratches all over my legs from patches of thorns and I've nursing poison ivy for about a week now.



I'm talking about "Hazards" as a rules option like "Out of Bounds" or "Casual Areas", not simply uncomfortable areas on a course. Where the golfer can play where it is with no penalty or move to a drop zone with penalty.

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.



This is true. As I'm typing this, I have large scratches all over my legs from patches of thorns and I've nursing poison ivy for about a week now.



I'm talking about "Hazards" as a rules option like "Out of Bounds" or "Casual Areas", not simply uncomfortable areas on a course. Where the golfer can play where it is with no penalty or move to a drop zone with penalty.



This sounds like a way of encouraging players who are bold (read "dumb") enough to tough out a hazard perhaps in conflict with safety.

I'm talking about "Hazards" as a rules option like "Out of Bounds" or "Casual Areas", not simply uncomfortable areas on a course. Where the golfer can play where it is with no penalty or move to a drop zone with penalty.

we already have that. you can declare an unsafe lie anytime you want and relocate to another spot with penalty. or you can play it penalty free from where its unaltered lie.

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.



This is true. As I'm typing this, I have large scratches all over my legs from patches of thorns and I've nursing poison ivy for about a week now.



I'm talking about "Hazards" as a rules option like "Out of Bounds" or "Casual Areas", not simply uncomfortable areas on a course. Where the golfer can play where it is with no penalty or move to a drop zone with penalty.



This sounds like a way of encouraging players who are bold (read "dumb") enough to tough out a hazard perhaps in conflict with safety.



Perhaps, but it is also known as a "hazard" in the organized sport of "golf".

There are enough hazards in disc golf...we don't need to really create new ones.

In NC there are very few courses that are wide open where you don't have to worry about thorns, poison ivy, large bushes, etc.



This is true. As I'm typing this, I have large scratches all over my legs from patches of thorns and I've nursing poison ivy for about a week now.



I'm talking about "Hazards" as a rules option like "Out of Bounds" or "Casual Areas", not simply uncomfortable areas on a course. Where the golfer can play where it is with no penalty or move to a drop zone with penalty.



This sounds like a way of encouraging players who are bold (read "dumb") enough to tough out a hazard perhaps in conflict with safety.



Perhaps, but it is also known as a "hazard" in the organized sport of "golf".



Well, I just think it's largely "unnecessary" and "redundant" and the "game" of "disc golf." :D

Perhaps, but it is also known as a "hazard" in the organized sport of "golf".



Well, I just think it's largely "unnecessary" and "redundant" and the "game" of "disc golf." :D


We should look to ball golf when it makes sense for us. I agree with Erik that in this case it does not.

I think that it is "hazardous" enough playing DG with all the folks that are drinking on the course.

Perhaps, but it is also known as a "hazard" in the organized sport of "golf".



Well, I just think it's largely "unnecessary" and "redundant" and the "game" of "disc golf." :D


We should look to ball golf when it makes sense for us. I agree with Erik that in this case it does not.



I don't disagree either, I am just being clear about what we are talking about here.

More Dukes, less Hazards.

Now dat wuz funny!