lost in the courtesy violation thread so i'm posting it here to hopefully get an answer from the people that follow rules



rshelt
Disc Golfer


Reged: 11/03/03
Posts: 709
Loc: phx., az Re: Courtesy violation question [Re: Alacrity]
#379202 - 05/26/05 11:50 AM Edit Reply Quote



How many times have you turned when you heard loud chains. Almost every time. I'm not talking about a hard putt, that is way different than someone throwing full force from a few feet. Now once in a while you will hear loud chains, but when someone does it 2 or 3 times in a row, and it makes you stop and look, that is a distraction. The rule does state any distraction. Also when someone is throwing at top speed point blank, it's not hard to see that that person is angry, and that as well is a distraction. Now I'm sure that the guy was well liked and nobody wanted to call him for a violation. That's cool. I've overlooked such violations, and had my own violations overlooked, many times, but if 1 person is distracted, then he should be warned, and take it like a man, because he does know he was wrong in th e1st place.

Now for another "anger" courtesy question that I'm sure has been brought up before. I was in a 4-some during a sanc. event, and a guy in my group was mad after going OB, so when he finished putting, he picked up his mini, and in a putting stance, putted it angrly into the basket. He was the last one to putt, and I was the only one in the group to witness it. I didn't call him, but did make a comment, which he angrily replied, it's just a courtesy violation not a stroke. Not knowing if was either I just shut up and pulled out the rule book. I couldn't find anything either way. He didn't distract anyone, so it really wasn't a courtesy, and the rules state that a throw is with a reg. disc, not a mini. Then I found that any throw after the start of the round should be counted. Anybody have any input on this.

Post Extras:

Well what's your input Keith?

Jim, Lance and I went over it, and I've discussed it with Cup, Dan, and others. Some 1st say it's a practice stroke, others say it's a courtesy, but when you look it up, it's one of those "grey" areas. It's neither. What would anyone think if before or after my putt I stood there in a putting stance and threw mini after mini into the basket. As long as I wasn't yelling or distracting anyone, that should be fine and well within the rules. Now as far as the way I see the rules, I can even tee off with a mini, and there is no stroke penalty as long as I do it and tee off with my regulation disc within the time limit. Wouldn't that seem a little like practice? I remember when I started disc golf, I had a bad habit of tossing my mini in anger into the basket after I missed a putt(who hasn't), and would always be reprimanded for it. That is why I always thought it was a violation.

my input is what i said before....
it is only a courtesy violation if someone wanted to call it, as a mini has been declared to NOT be a disc(except in mini-golf events i suppose)

in any of the scenario's you described you can do all the things as long as no one calls you for a courtesy violation...

by the way...i can't learn anything by throwing mini's, as they hyzer more than my regular discs do :D

It's not a courtesy violation, unless you are distracting someone. If you don't yell while doing it, or putt out of turn, then I can't see how it would be distracting, unless someone is distracted because they think you are violating some rule. They should definately have a rule, if anything because it looks so unprofessional when someone does it.

i didn't say it WAS a courtesy violation....
i said someone could SAY it was a courtesy violation....based on things that distract another player...

everyone has different levels on what is a distraction...
so therefore it IS a courtesy violation IF someone THINKS it's a distraction to them....

have a good weekend...will i see you in tucson or not until pinetop?

by the way when you see dan again ask him if city champs is going to stay on the same weekend as socal championships...thanks

ok - I'll give what my un-official "Official's Ruling" would be...

It is NOT a throw because it doesn't change the player's lie.

It IS however a courtesy violation and therefore gets a warning the first time and penalty strokes for subsequent occurances.

Does THAT answer the question you asked?

A throw is defined in the glossary and seems to make some sense: Throw: The propulsion of a disc that causes it to change its position from the teeing area or the lie. While it might be unclear to define what constitutes a disc (driver vs mini) the net effect of what the guy did, didn't change his lie. He'd holed out.

are you sure it's a courtesy violation? Is it because its distracting you by the noise I'm making? what rule specically states that? as far as I read the rules, a mini is not a disc, therefore you can throw it as many times as you like, as long as it doesn't distract anyone.

everyone has different levels on what is a distraction...


and therein lies the problem. someone can just not like you and say it's a courtesy even though what you did didn't really distract them. Kind of like Terrys post. He was the only one in his group that had a problem with the distraction.


You will see me in Tucson. Wife and kids decided to make a vaca. out of it. Should be fun. Hotel looks pretty nice. I'm surprised that neither you or Jim have tried to hype up this event on the mess-bored, being an "A" tier and all.

and the rules state that a throw is with a reg. disc, not a mini.



I don't believe the rules state this explicitly. The wording in 803.00 B covering practice throws says "A player who throws a practice throw or an extra throw with <font color="red"> any disc </font> any time after the start..."

I think discs fall into one of these categories:
Legal to be used in play
Legal by qualifying to be a mini
Status undetermined yet
Becomes illegal during round (cracks)
Illegal at the start of round

In reverse order, this rule probably wasn't meant for dealing with initially illegal discs since those are already covered in the rules elsewhere and they shouldn't be carried at all.

Discs that get cracked during the round and player has asked permission to carry it, I believe, are the only type of identified illegal disc that can be carried, "but not used." Since we know this disc can't be thrown competitively, it would make no sense to allow this disc to be thrown when a player is not at their lie. The implication would be that the practice throw rule cited above also covers discs that became illegal during the round.

Status undetermined discs might be ones that would be illegal if another player asks the TD to verify its status but are defacto legal until the TD says it's not. In theory, a player could bring an old over weight catch disc and play catch with other players in the group. If someone claims those are practice throws, the player could ask the TD to verify that the disc is legal. If it's shown to be illegal they wouldn't be practice throws UNLESS the rule in question also covers throwing these discs that are illegal but haven't been verified until questioned. (Pulling this stunt is risky in the first place in terms of subverting the rules by knowingly carrying an over weight disc but I thought it helped make the point)

By extension, it's reasonable to assume the RC intended throws of actually legal minis to also be covered under the "all discs" statement pertaining to practice throws.

How could this guy distract, if it wasn't anyone's turn? How would tossing a marker be different than throwing dead grass?

...maybe it caused a delay?

804.05 A. 1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwings things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

Although the single instance of the player's actions doesn't seem to warrant DQing, it would be fairer to issue a warning.

It is a lot different then dropping leaves or grass to assess wind-speed, because throwing a mini allows a player to see how their disc might fly.

throwing minis in anger is the same as throwing rocks or pine cones or water bottles or any other object not "a disc in play". It's illegal. What if somebody threw a pine cone in anger at the pin? Illegal? Same for a mini.

Warn, then stroke the second instance, or DQ.

Need to Issue a warning First !!!!

804.05 A. 1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwings things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.

In the tech standards it seems a mini fits right in with being a regular disc, just a mini one.


This is just another grey area of the rules. It should definately be a practice throw if you stand in a putting stance and putt ANY disc like object into the basket during a sanctioned event. Not a courtesy warning, a practice throw. I know that there is really no rule either way.

Funny thing about it, the guy who did it is usually a rules nut, and follows them. When I mentioned that to the person, he got angry and that's why I brought it up. The simple answer should have been, "I'm sorry that was really unprofessional", instead of arguing whether it's a courtesy or a practice.

throwing minis in anger is the same as throwing rocks or pine cones or water bottles or any other object not "a disc in play". It's illegal. What if somebody threw a pine cone in anger at the pin? Illegal? Same for a mini.

Warn, then stroke the second instance, or DQ.



Well, the point is it's different in the sense there is the "any disc" wording Chuck covered; a pinecone cannot be used for a practice throw, so what is thrown might matter in a ruling. Although not a legal-to-throw disc [a legal disc has to be 40 cm.>=>21 cm.], there seems to be just such a thing as a practice throw with a mini. <font color="red">803.00b ...The practice throw or extra throw must be observed by any two players or an official. </font> <font color="red"> </font>

There Seems To Be Such a Thing As a Practice Throw w/ a Mini:
By extension, it's reasonable to assume the RC intended throws of actually legal minis to also be covered under the "all discs" statement pertaining to practice throws.


Seems that way. It might be an unfair advantage, testing the wind with a disposable mini. Like rangfinders are unfair; that thinking.

I'm surprised that neither you or Jim have tried to hype up this event on the mess-bored, being an "A" tier and all.



all i know about the event is what's on the flyer.....and jim is busy doing other things AND trying to get ready(according to the yahoo az emails)



by the way....i'm sorry that was real unprofessional....but more professional than how i handled the same situation in virginia last weekend


see you here this weekend
keith

Exactly Slo. Can you imagine if before every putt, I threw a couple of minis in to get my line or rhythm?

Well I wasn't using names or trying to call you out to confess, and no apology is needed, after the fact. It's something that you needed to do at the time when it happened. Ya know get mad, throw the mini, apologise to the group for it, and move on. I do it all the time. I'll even ask if I'm ruining anyones round when I'm having one of my patented "dammm it Russel" moods. :D


by the way, what happened in W.VA.?

i don't know i wasn't in west virginia....what happened? :D

ok, then what happened in SPOTSYLVANIA?

can't be that bad. All you did at Conocido was go ob. I do that all the time.

Well I wasn't using names or trying to call you out to confess, and no apology is needed, after the fact. It's something that you needed to do at the time when it happened. Ya know get mad, throw the mini, apologise to the group for it, and move on. I do it all the time. I'll even ask if I'm ruining anyones round when I'm having one of my patented "dammm it Russel" moods. :D




i know you weren't calling me out,or trying to give me craap about it...i actually posted it because I(keith) wanted to see how many people out there thought(incorrectly)that you could be stroked or penalized....
i did say at the time that if it bothered you(russel) that you could call me for a courtesy violation but not for a practice throw as a mini is not a disc in play....
i do remember also apologizing to everyone in the group at the last tee like i do everytime i do something that shouldn't be done...

i try to keep my composure during rounds but sometimes i get carried away and i try to walk away from or ahead of the group as to not create distractions/issues for the others....

i took 4 "penaly throws" from 2 feet in virginia costing me a chance to cash to answer your other question...

see you tomorrow
keith

i try to keep my composure during rounds but sometimes i get carried away and i try to walk away from or ahead of the group as to not create distractions/issues for the others....



You are not alone there. I've made keeping composure my number one priority. Since I have relatively no time to practice, it has become my main challenge at tournaments to control my thoughts and emotions (since I am not as able to control my throws as much). It's brought a new kind of fun to the game. I don't know if I shoot any better, but I go through fewer gaskets... ;)

Another thing that has brought perspective is playing more ball golf, where I more or less stink. If you don't want all of your clubs to end up in the pond you learn quickly to focus on and play for the good shots. The ESPN highlight film shots.

Got my first birdie on Memorial day on a par 4! Schweet! :)