On another thread, Fore and Alacrity were discussing the issue of disqualifying a player by the TD. This got me thinking, and generated a couple of questions and/or misinformation on my part. Basically, I am conceptualizing the process of a TD dqing a player in my mind.

One possible scenario. A player commits a courtesy violation that also qualifies as a disqualifiable offense. A player issues a warning to the offender.

Question 1 - I always thought that the warning had to be seconded, probably from the foot fault rule, but apparently this is wrong, only one person is needed to issue a courtesy warning. Correct?

As stated earlier, the player issuing the warning considers this to be a disqualifiable offense.

Question 2 - Should the player simply notify the group that a warning is being issued, go on with the round, and report the infraction to the TD after the round? Or should the player notify the group that a warning is being issued and get the TD to address the situation without waiting for the rest of the round?

Question 3 - Based on the Fore/Alacrity discussion, the TD may dq the offender, or may not. It is up to their discretion. Is the level of fact-finding and ability for the player to appeal entirely up to the TD. In other words, the process for reaching a decision is entirely up to the TD. Correct?

Question 4 - Apparently, one person can issue the first warning, and one person can issue the subsequent violations that result in penalties. Is this wise? I can see both sides. On one hand, members of the group may be non-confrontational or spineless, and noone will ever get punished. On the other, I can see personal vendettas being played out. What do y'all think?

Your sizing this one up real good aren't you James? Next time somebody acts like a baby on your card and kicks O.B. lines; issue the warning!

My Question which may not be related to Mccaines reasons as to why he is asking but, if a player gets angry and cannot control his/herself and kicks an O.B. rope/string and said O.B breaks and snaps is that not a more serious offense than just being a baby and acting discourteous?

BTW James anytime you want some backing on a issue like that I will be there for you. No problem.

and James anytime you want to B*TCH SLAP the person I got your back. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Seewhere, I needed you this weekend to issue a bi!#$ slap or two, although probably not cool at worlds biggest.

what if James wants to BIATCHSLAP someone for throwing a mini? :D

That'd be fun to watch. :)

I still have his back :D I hear ya!!

Yes matchu worlds biggest is too laid back for slappings

My Question which may not be related to Mccaines reasons as to why he is asking but, if a player gets angry and cannot control his/herself and kicks an O.B. rope/string and said O.B breaks and snaps is that not a more serious offense than just being a baby and acting discourteous?




Jeff, I would say that this situation is covered under 804.05A(2):

804.05 DISQUALIFICATION & SUSPENSION
A. A player may be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
(1) Unsportsmanlike conduct, such as; loud cursing, throwing things in anger (other than discs in play), or overt rudeness to anyone present.
(2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the disc golf course or the park.

Thank You for the answer to that Bender. Just tell me you had to look it up and didn't recite that from memory...lol.

:)

I thought it was in there, but had to look up the exact rule. I'm not Felix yet.

Is kicking at the OB line indicative of willful destruction ?

Oh no here we go :D

I would venture to say that as a result of the o.b. being broken from a willfull decision to kick it then yes it is willfull destruction. :D

Is kicking at the OB line indicative of willful destruction ?



No, it is an example of demonic possession. :p

OK, one question at a time. Do I take the lack of answering whether it only takes one player to issue a courtesy warning as an affirmative, an "I don't know," or simply "I am bored with your questions." :D

Willful and overt destruction implies intent, though intentional would probably work better.

It does leave a hole for willful and covert damage. :cool:

OK, one question at a time. Do I take the lack of answering whether it only takes one player to issue a courtesy warning as an affirmative, an "I don't know," or simply "I am bored with your questions." :D

[/QUOTE]

801.01 Coutesy

F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated vioilations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

It is in the rule book.

It's weird, but I always thought that you needed two to issue a courtesy warning, probably since it might address my following concerns. Has anyone ever witnessed a possible scenario of one player warning another, then later penalizing, again and again while others in the group sit idly by? I have never heard of such a thing.

If something like this did occur, I assume the penalized player has some appeal, but I can't find it anywhere. My concern is not with the legitimate penalizing of people, but what mechanism prevents the possibility of personal hostilities degenerating into this scenario?

I would assume the TD has the right of the final decision, after his/her investigation/interrogation of the group.

I believe this is the case also, but I just cannot find it. Where I looked at least. Assuming it is written somewhere, do you think the TD has oversight on the less drastic scenario of one warning and one penalty based on a subsequent violation?

If you avoid activities listed in 801.01 A-E, there should be no grounds for a courtesy warning. If one player on the card is trying to trump up false courtesy violations, he should be in danger of being DQed for cheating.

<font color="red"> Coutesy </font> warning/dq questions




801.01 <font color="red"> Coutesy
</font>
F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated vioilations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05.

It is in the rule book.



Why does the mispelling of this word keep happening? Or am I missing something?

That is an official COURTESY warning to James and Rocmon :)

There is an appeal process listed under 803.00 General, but it specifically states if a majority cannot make a decision, where as the courtesy violation does not require a majority to call it.

I have been warned for a courtesy violation where the other two members in the group disagreed with the call, but since it did not bother me I simply made sure that I could not be stroked for a second 'perceived' violation. If the player had called me again, I think the only thing to do would have been to go to the TD for a decision. I believe that unsubstantiated stroking for courtesy violations could also be perceived as unsportsmanlike conduct.


It's weird, but I always thought that you needed two to issue a courtesy warning, probably since it might address my following concerns. Has anyone ever witnessed a possible scenario of one player warning another, then later penalizing, again and again while others in the group sit idly by? I have never heard of such a thing.

If something like this did occur, I assume the penalized player has some appeal, but I can't find it anywhere. My concern is not with the legitimate penalizing of people, but what mechanism prevents the possibility of personal hostilities degenerating into this scenario?

Uh, you don't get the secret code? :p

My misspelling is not my fault. I swear I spelled it right. It was entered right, but this messageboard software respelled it after I hit enter. Nick has stolen my identity and is purposely misspelling words just to make me look bad. If other posters would quit working me, I would have spelled it right. :p

By the way, back to the original topic. If you had to listen to these types of excuses for eighteen holes, can you issue a coutesy warning? :D

Are you sure it's not 'cutesy' warning for that fishy kitty avatar being so cute? :D

At Worlds in 2004, we had one player in our group with a reputation for outbursts. It was the last day and one player was concerned about playing with this guy and what it might do to group dynamics, overall enjoyment, etc. There was even talk of a "pre-emptive" warning. While not as familiar with the rules then as I am now, even I saw the fallacy in this. I said we couldn't call anything until something happened. By the time my ire had risen (last hole), and others in the group were (literally) crying foul for an outburst on the guy's drive, I addressed the guy in front of the group and said "This is your official warning. One more like that and I will stroke you." He calmed down and apologized, and for the rest of the last hole everything was cool. However, it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I've never been pushed to that.

HOWEVER, one or two of the others in the group said they had ALREADY given him a warning (courtesy) earlier in that round, but I was not aware of that. Since it states in the rule that:

"F. A player violating a courtesy rule may be warned by any affected player, even if from another group, or by an official, with all players of the group advised of the warning. The player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent courtesy violation of any type in the same round. Repeated violations of courtesy rules may result in disqualification in accordance with section 804.05."

Since I didn't hear the earlier warnings, only mine counted, since I made it in front of the group, and everyone was *definitely* listening at that point.

Could one of the other players argued that my inattentiveness should not discount their warning? And in the future, does everyone need to indicate they've HEARD the warning being given, and thus avoid this situation? In essence, I saved this guy a stroke (not my intent), and he ended up tying for the lead on our card...

Thanks and still learning...
Steve

From the rulebook:

804.03 SCORING
.
.
.
C. Warnings and penalty throws given to a player for rules infractions should be noted on the scorecard.

If you make the effort to get the scorer to note it on the card, the whole card should notice. If you are the scorer, make sure that everyone notices.

If you always note it on the card, like the rules say to do, then you will see the warning and know to issue the stroke. That way the offender won't get two warnings.

The offender can also argue that he was never officially warned if it is not noted on the card, and the second offense will be a warning instead of a stroke. Provided the second time it is actually written on the card.

I am going to beg the question a bit, what exactly constitutes a courtesy violation? I don't mean the obvious such as shouting and argueing. If you read 801.1 B. it says that a player should take care not to produce any distracting noises or any potential disctractions and then gives the following examples:

...shouting, cursing, freestyling, slapping course equipment, throwing out of turn, throwing or kicking golf bags, and advancing on the fairway beyond the away player. Shouting at an appropriate time to warn someone in danger of being struck by a disc is not a violation of courtesy.

If you are talking quitely is this considered a courtesy violaiton? If you are talking at a normal volume is this a violation? The example says shouting or cursing, not talking. If talking is bothersome to you, then shouldn't you have to aletrt the players on your card that talking during any of your throw would be considered discourteous. the next question would be, at what distance is talking acceptable? If you are 80 feet from someone, is talking okay? How about 50 feet?

The rule says in section F. that it can be called on any offending player, regardless of whether they are in your group or not. Does this mean that if talking, at any time during your throw, bothers you that you have to alert the whole pool?

Just pondering.

slight thread drift...

Here's one of those 'hypothetical' situations that actually happened at our local mini a few weeks ago.....

Player A has just gone OB. After marking his 1m in from the point his disc went out, he sets up, focuses on the putt, and begins his motion to shoot. Just as he is about to let go, Player B walks right in front of Player A, between himself and the basket. Player A tries to stop his motion, but he is beyond the point of no return, and the disc leaves his hand. However, he does try to stop his motion enough that the disc leaves his hand severely to the right....and OB again. As you can imagine, Player A was pretty ticked. The majority of the group decided that Player A should re-shoot, with no practice throw penalty or OB penalty incurred. Player A re-shoots, holes out, and the group moves on.

Several holes later, they asked me what the correct ruling should have been. I am not a certified official (though, I hope to be by the end of the year), but local players know that I have read the rule book 2 or 3 times and come to me with questions. I told them I wasn�t sure on the ruling, but none of the involved parties were 'in the money', and by now they were mainly just curious as to what the correct call would be in such a case as this.

Now, I know that Player B should definitely have been given a courtesy violation warning, but should the Rules on Interference (803.06) have been used by Player A? . If it was an intentional act, then certainly so. But, even if Player B was accessed a two-throw penalty, in this situation, Player A would essentially get a two-throw penalty himself. But what about unintentional? Maybe Player A was just SOL because he got so far into the process of shooting, he couldn�t stop. Does the situation fall under the Coutesy Rules (801.01) or Interference Rule (803.06) enough that the Rule of Fairness (803.00E) cant be invoked?

I feel like the group probably acted accordingly under the Rule of Fairness (803.00E) by electing to let Player A re-shoot with no penalties and Player B should have been given a courtesy violation warning (801.01F).

What are your thoughts?

i make an effort not to talk when other people are throwing, but if i happen to be talking and they throw without asking me to be quiet, that would be their problem. talking is NOT a courtesy violation, unless you do so after someone asks for quiet IMO. and one request for quiet doesn't cover the whole round, how am i to guess when you are ready to throw. if someone is talking and it would bother your throw, you should ask for quiet.

Player A should have hit Player B in the head with the putter instead of trying to stop his motion.

Unless the discs hit player B it is not interference. The Interference rule covers interfering with the disc in flight, not the player throwing the disc. This is covered under courtesy violations for distracting noise or movement. In either case, the thrower does not get a free rethrow unless he thinks quickly enough to fall down in front of his lie as a result of his attempt to not throw the shot.

Then it is a falling putt (if 2 players on the card call it), and must be rethrown.

The call by the rules is a courtesy warning/penalty for player B and player A is playing taking another OB penalty.

If it can be proven that Player B did this on purpose(willfully), it can be brought up to the TD as possible grounds for DQ.

An interference penalty is only assessed if the interference was intentional. Being a bozo and obliviously wandering in front of someone while they putt and then being hit by the putt is a courtesy warning and the disc is played where it comes to rest. If you can show that Player B intentionally got in the way of the putt, then you would play it where it struck player B and assess a 2 throw penalty with no warning.

Unless the discs hit player B it is not interference. The Interference rule covers interfering with the disc in flight, not the player throwing the disc. This is covered under courtesy violations for distracting noise or movement. <font color="red">In either case, the thrower does not get a free rethrow unless he thinks quickly enough to fall down in front of his lie as a result of his attempt to not throw the shot.
</font>
Then it is a falling putt (if 2 players on the card call it), and must be rethrown.





Just curious....

Would purposely falling in front of your lie in this situation also be grounds for DQ since you are trying to break the rules on purpose to use to your advantage?

That would depend on how good an actor you are!

You can not gain an advantage by falling down, you can only extend an opportunity to your cardmates to save you from an unfortunate circumstance.

If you had the ability to fall, call yourself, and re-throw without any support from the other players on the card I could see a circumventing the rules call. As it stands, the entire card circumvented the rules by not calling the incident properly.

Let's say the oblivious player B (this means he didn't do it on purpose) was a bird or squirrel, how would you say the situation should be ruled. Player A's side of the scenario is no different whether the distraction came from another player on the same card, a different card, or an animal.

I say the call is a courtesy warning(assuming the bird/squirrel/player had not been warned for courtesy prior to this). Then unfortunaly player A must play his throw that went OB as if the distraction never even occurred.

I brought up the "falling on purpose" for those of us who choose to follow the letter of the law regardless if we can take advantage of it or not by "acting". Wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that would make it not grounds for DQ.

Nope, you weren't missing anything. If the card wanted to they could take it to the TD. I don't think it would get very far with most TDs unless it happened several times during the event.