May 18 2005, 11:22 AM
Can anyone shed some light on which roller to learn first?

I have been playing DG for a year now. I have slowly taught myself forehand and backhand with pretty good success. I have also been forcing myself to learn multiple types of shots ie. thumber, tomahawk, anhyzer, hyzer, etc.

Now it's time to learn the ever-dreaded roller. My question is, which roller is easier/more beneficial to learn? Is there a difference between a backhanded roller and a forehanded roller?

Parkntwoputt
May 18 2005, 11:24 AM
Yes,

Depending on the stability of the disc, one will finish left, and the other will finish right. Learn both, just like you did your air shots.

May 18 2005, 01:02 PM
I have yet to master the backhand roller. I use a forehand sky roller that works pretty dang good. I just rip it high with alot of Anny and it usually comes down perfectly after about 150-200' and then I get a roll about another 150-200.

I hardly use rollers but this one seams to be effective.

discgolfreview
May 18 2005, 02:00 PM
it depends on what you want to do with it...

sidearm rollers are easier to learn/execute and imo, are a bit more accurate since you can keep your eyes on the line. downside: sidearm rollers lack D.

if you want to throw distance rollers that will give you more D than your air shots, you'll need to throw em backhand. i am rarely able to control a sidearm roller past ~225' but i can backhand roll 400+ with relative ease.

imo, it really takes very little practice to learn a sidearm roller and you should have multiple types (turnover, sky, cut, controlled, etc.) mastered within an hour or so. you can actually learn a sidearm turnover roller by simply throwing a slightly understable disc flat using really bad sidearm technique (overpower, torque over, etc.).

backhand rollers are a little trickier in that they can be very different from your standard throwing form depending upon which type you choose to throw. a distance turnover roller won't have significantly different mechanics: throw beat disc, adjust angle (hyzer/flat/anhyzer for desired landing angle), give a lil wrist roll over at the finish.

a backhand sky roller and controlled roller are a bit more complicated to develop the technique.

i often use a backhand controlled roller that lands almost vertical on tight holes with a sharp dogleg right (pitching injuries = no sidearm air shots for me) and i find this much easier to execute consistently than a sidearm cut roller (or steep annie air shot for that matter since the landing varies so much).

slo
May 18 2005, 03:16 PM
IMHO, sidearm and forehand [overhanded] shots are two different animals. I'm fairly comfortable with the latter; I use my FX. It might technically be a Tomohawk which rolls.

slo
May 18 2005, 03:16 PM
IMHO, sidearm and forehand [overhanded] shots are two different animals. I'm fairly comfortable with the latter; I use my FX. It might technically be a Tomohawk which rolls.

slo
May 18 2005, 03:16 PM
IMHO, sidearm and forehand [overhanded] shots are two different animals. I'm fairly comfortable with the latter; I use my FX. It might technically be a Tomohawk which rolls.

May 18 2005, 03:22 PM
Dang catfish! You trying to raise your post count? :confused:

slo
May 18 2005, 03:52 PM
You're still the one and only...Catfish! No, my count is getting pretty embarrassing, as is. If I wanted to 'pump' it, I could use the one sentence/one word method, favored by some....post-bleeps. :D

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but what I'm doing doesn't seem a sidearm, however it's called that by everyone. And it's the prevelant method here; I rarely see a 'true' sidearm roller.

There is a player here named Pat Sweeney who utilizes a "backhand" roller, which seems the converse of the overhand roller I use: Overstable disc [Ram, Monster]; the arc of his delivery is almost up & down. He's the only one I've seen do this; 500+ feet is not an exageration. His grip uses but the most distal articulations [last phalanges]. I can't do that. :(

Where am I going with this? It seems there are at least FOUR types of rollers!

Parkntwoputt
May 19 2005, 09:14 AM
Slo, the side arm roller release seems closer to an overhand because of the extreme amount of anhyzer put on the disc. It should be about the same amount of annie you put on a backhand roller if you are using the same discs. My releases angle for a side arm roller is ~45degrees. Pretty close to an overhand.

slo
May 19 2005, 12:59 PM
Wow, I have nothing like a 45-degree angle delivery in my *cough* arsenal. Is all that angle in the forearm, or is the wrist rotated, a bit?

Here's what Dave Dunipace had to say just yesterday on the subject of Rollers:

Hi Steve. Actually there are many types of rollers. More than a dozen that I know of. Three deliveries with backhand spin (Backhand, scoobie, and hook thumb) and two with sidearm spin (two finger, and thumber). Within those delivery types there are different types of roller kinds such as flip or cut rollers. There are also unstable or wide path rollers and narrow path stable rollers which are kind of like flip and cut but both end up flipping. There are also sky roller or big loop rollers vs. straight flip and straight stable. When you roll a certain type of disc it limits your choices of how you can roll it. A Firebird for instance is good for cut rollers and looping or driving straight ahead rollers that are released steeply. A Stingray, on the other hand, is good for Sky rollers and flip rollers that are released much less steeply.

...I can do but a fraction of those...always room for improvement, eh? ;)

slo
May 19 2005, 01:11 PM
*heh* I just noticed I had a post yesterday in triplicate...was wondering what Catfish was talking about...not sure how that happened...I blame dial-up! :D

...I forgot to mention when I DO throw a backhand roller it's pretty flat; I might 'nudge' it a bit with some back-arch; maybe raise my arm a tad. I'm not a big-d guy; I've had but a handful of 400+ Roller-drives, and none since I lost my SE Valk. :(

Parkntwoputt
May 19 2005, 01:42 PM
Wow, I have nothing like a 45-degree angle delivery in my *cough* arsenal. Is all that angle in the forearm, or is the wrist rotated, a bit?



From what I can recall, sitting in my cubicle, it is all in the forearm angle. I tend to break my wrist on my throws, so I am carefull not to move my wrist anymore then necessary. Now even though I may able to throw both backhand and forehand rollers, I do not consider it a main throw and only use in emergencies. My max distance on a roller is about 380 while my golf drives are 420-430ft.

esalazar
May 19 2005, 01:58 PM
you must be throwing them from a high release point!!

slo
May 19 2005, 02:16 PM
Well, you're a 'boomer' compared to me! By emergency use, do you mean you are not confident in the throw, or it is to get out of trouble?

If distance isn't a big factor, I would prefer sidearms, air or roller, if just to avoid the turning-away-from-the-target aspect. I'm not a gymnast!

Parkntwoputt
May 19 2005, 03:09 PM
ESALAZAR; Define high release point? My elbow is at my normal side arm level when throwing air shots or sidearm rollers.

SLO; By emergency use, I mean two things. 1) To get out of trouble, but usually that is a thumb roller with a putter just to get clear. 2) If the fairway highly limits the air shots. We have a hole on our course that in the long placement is sitting behind a gautlent of trees. But there is an 10ft wide gap on the left side of the fair way where you can push a backhand roller through and end up with an easy lay-up shot all the time.

esalazar
May 19 2005, 04:07 PM
were you talking about forehand or backhand?

Parkntwoputt
May 19 2005, 04:17 PM
For most of this thread, and to SLO, Forehand.

slo
May 19 2005, 05:23 PM
I do the approach thing with something 'less' than a driver, too. For under canopys, mostly. More of a 'touch' shot, and the 'flop' seems pretty predicatable. The less-stable the disc, the shorter the distance traveled, and more of a 'hook' [circle motion] at the end. I don't believe I'd try that backhanded!

Parkntwoputt
May 20 2005, 09:13 AM
Depending on the level of shankatude of my drive and my angle to the basket out of the shule, I sometimes will have to do a backhand pop roller out to the fairway.

Right now I am trying to master the behind-the-back backhand throw. Our oak trees can get mighty big around here.

May 20 2005, 10:59 AM
Holy cow! How in the world do I learn all these rollers without ever seeing them?

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a video encyclopedia of all the possible throws in disc golf? including every type of roller? I would love to see a scooby shot also. I have read the thread on the scooby over and over and still cannot picture it.

discgolfreview
May 20 2005, 12:02 PM
Wouldn't it be awesome if there was a video encyclopedia of all the possible throws in disc golf? including every type of roller? I would love to see a scooby shot also. I have read the thread on the scooby over and over and still cannot picture it.



i've been working on something like this... but it has never really come to fruition and i'd mainly been conserving my bandwidth for air shots.

video of a scooby roller is available on stokely video #2.

so far i have limited video of alternate shots on my site, but here are a few:

overhand:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/brianschweberger2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/kristianmckenzie2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/tonymcgibbon3.shtml

sidearm:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/tonymcgibbon2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/briandonahue2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/timmygill2.shtml

360 turnaround:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/mikeyoung2.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/averyjenkins3.shtml
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/jondrummond2.shtml

i've only put in a few "special requests" for alternate techniques when shooting (schweb's thumber was one of em) and it's not often that people want to show off alternate techniques.

discgolfreview
May 20 2005, 12:06 PM
forgot to paste a link to the one roller video clip someone sent me... (controlled roller, from 1 angle)

http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/analysis/dannyreeves2.shtml

May 20 2005, 01:37 PM
How do you view the videos that you have links to? I downloaded real player 10 and downloaded the video but realplayer won't play it.

Also, are there any videos that show the flight path of the disc. I would like to see what a tomahawk, scooby, roller, etc is supposed to do and look like.

discgolfreview
May 20 2005, 05:00 PM
the files are zipped. if your computer doesn't support compressed folders, then you need to download an unzip program such as www.winzip.com (http://www.winzip.com)

showing disc flight more than doubles the length/size of the video as well as requires more intensive camera work. due to bandwidth restrictions i made the decision early on to go for more angles/players rather than full flights (read as: i chose 150 3 second clips instead of 50 9 second clips).

i may in the future get some full flight footage but it would probably be just 1 clip for each style in its own library as sort of a "throw encyclopedia." lately i've been struggling to find the time to work on my site at all, let alone to take on something new, but i will try to buckle down and get it going. can hopefully find some local players willing to model for it.

May 23 2005, 05:49 PM
Learn backhand or forehand rollers first?
Generally I would say backhand, but it's more complicated for you in that you apparently do a lot of forehand throws.

So my initial answer would be that if you are more accurate with your backhand throw than your forehand (which most people are), and you use your backhand more than your forehand (which most people do), then you should learn a backhand roller as your priority. If your forehand throw is your money shot, then perhaps you should learn your forehand roller first.

Warning if you choose forehand: If you do a lot of forehand and now add a forehand roller, that means maybe you're doing more and more forehand and less and less backhand. I generally discourage DGers using forehands and upside down/tomato/tomahawk throws as their staple throw because the normal DGer commonly injures the throwing arm (elbow/shoulder) with this technique, especially as he ages to 35+. There are exceptions: some people really used a throwing motion a lot as a child in other sports (like baseball, ultimate, javelin, shot put, football) and managed to strengthen the necessary body components without hurting them. Now as an adult, they can put a lot more abuse into the throwing arm without hurting it. But even if this were you, I'd always be wary and alert for aches and pains in the throwing arm with mostly forehand-type shots.

-----------------
A (righty) backhand roller ends up by going left to right at the end as it comes to rest. This is a nice counterpoint to a normal righty air shot that ends up by going right to left. Vice versa if you're the forehand type of guy.

If I were learning rollers, I would start by talking to the best couple of roller guys in your area and give him a few bucks and free lunch to show you the ropes in an open field.

I would also practice doing a few rounds of rollers-only. In other words, every shot is a backhand or forehand roller until you're within 10 meters. Gotta go

oklaoutlaw
May 24 2005, 03:57 PM
it depends on what you want to do with it...

sidearm rollers are easier to learn/execute and imo, are a bit more accurate since you can keep your eyes on the line. downside: sidearm rollers lack D.

if you want to throw distance rollers that will give you more D than your air shots, you'll need to throw em backhand. i am rarely able to control a sidearm roller past ~225' but i can backhand roll 400+ with relative ease.

imo, it really takes very little practice to learn a sidearm roller and you should have multiple types (turnover, sky, cut, controlled, etc.) mastered within an hour or so. you can actually learn a sidearm turnover roller by simply throwing a slightly understable disc flat using really bad sidearm technique (overpower, torque over, etc.).

backhand rollers are a little trickier in that they can be very different from your standard throwing form depending upon which type you choose to throw. a distance turnover roller won't have significantly different mechanics: throw beat disc, adjust angle (hyzer/flat/anhyzer for desired landing angle), give a lil wrist roll over at the finish.

a backhand sky roller and controlled roller are a bit more complicated to develop the technique.

i often use a backhand controlled roller that lands almost vertical on tight holes with a sharp dogleg right (pitching injuries = no sidearm air shots for me) and i find this much easier to execute consistently than a sidearm cut roller (or steep annie air shot for that matter since the landing varies so much).



Blake,

I've been playing for 25+ years now and it is amazing that most people I've seen that throw rollers can throw a backhand roller much easier than a sidearm. In fact there are many professional players that will not even try a sidearm roller that you are saying is so easy to throw.

Judging from your pdga# you've been around for what 3-5 years? IMO if I were looking for advice on how to throw something, I would go to the guys that have been throwing it for 10-15+ years. I think they have probably got it down pretty well. Dave D. would be a good one, he will freely give advice online. Most of us will freely give advice when we see you play. That way when we know how you throw, we can help you with something that is in line with what you have the ability to do, not something that will confuse folks.

So, Blake....until you have at least 10 years of professional play under your belt, try not to give too much information to folks because it might not be as accurate as you think.

TGL
PDGA# 2446

Oh BTW, about those sidearm rollers that you say lacks D? Mine is anywhere from 300' to 600' depending on the disc, wind, terrain, speed of release, angle of release and how far I want it to go, and is not usually more than 75' off target when I get a little wild.

May 24 2005, 04:21 PM
I've been playing for 25+ years now and it is amazing that most people I've seen that throw rollers can throw a backhand roller much easier than a sidearm. In fact there are many professional players that will not even try a sidearm roller that you are saying is so easy to throw.

Judging from your pdga# you've been around for what 3-5 years? IMO if I were looking for advice on how to throw something, I would go to the guys that have been throwing it for 10-15+ years. I think they have probably got it down pretty well. Dave D. would be a good one, he will freely give advice online. Most of us will freely give advice when we see you play. That way when we know how you throw, we can help you with something that is in line with what you have the ability to do, not something that will confuse folks.

So, Blake....until you have at least 10 years of professional play under your belt, try not to give too much information to folks because it might not be as accurate as you think.

TGL
PDGA# 2446

Oh BTW, about those sidearm rollers that you say lacks D? Mine is anywhere from 300' to 600' depending on the disc, wind, terrain, speed of release, angle of release and how far I want it to go, and is not usually more than 75' off target when I get a little wild.



So you disagree on one or two points and that means everything he says is worthless compared to everyone who's been playing longer? I definitely don't agree with that considering where Blake gets a lot of his information.

I'll go to Blake every time over someone with an attitude like that regardless of credentials. Disagreeing with what he has to say is one thing and that type of back and forth should be encouraged, but claiming he doesn't know what he's talking about based only on his PDGA number is ridiculous. I'm guessing Blake will consider what you have to say and add that to his base of knowledge. You just wrote off what he had to say based on how long you guess he's been playing and probably won't take anything away from this.

May 24 2005, 04:35 PM
I've been playing for a little over 5 years, but everything Blake's suggested has helped tremendously.....Keep up the good work Blake!

slo
May 24 2005, 04:43 PM
Happy birthday; you've got Egg on yer face! :)

...might as well say <font color="blue"> somebody </font> barely with a 900 rating doesn't know their stuff ;)...ridiculous!

...I think the overhand, baseball throw-type roller is a great addition, and fairly easy to learn. The fact you get to keep your vision ahead means you can watch the entire flight of the disc, and note how changes in delivery affect the outcome. Also, if you use the correct stability of disc, the angle of delivery closely mirrors the angle of roll....simple! Easy game! :)

oklaoutlaw
May 24 2005, 05:41 PM
So you disagree on one or two points and that means everything he says is worthless compared to everyone who's been playing longer? I definitely don't agree with that considering where Blake gets a lot of his information.

I'll go to Blake every time over someone with an attitude like that regardless of credentials. Disagreeing with what he has to say is one thing and that type of back and forth should be encouraged, but claiming he doesn't know what he's talking about based only on his PDGA number is ridiculous. I'm guessing Blake will consider what you have to say and add that to his base of knowledge. You just wrote off what he had to say based on how long you guess he's been playing and probably won't take anything away from this.



:DROFL :D

You take your advice from who you want to it doesn't matter a bit to me. :D :D

oklaoutlaw
May 24 2005, 05:44 PM
Happy birthday; you've got Egg on yer face! :)

...might as well say <font color="blue"> somebody </font> barely with a 900 rating doesn't know their stuff ;)...ridiculous!

...I think the overhand, baseball throw-type roller is a great addition, and fairly easy to learn. The fact you get to keep your vision ahead means you can watch the entire flight of the disc, and note how changes in delivery affect the outcome. Also, if you use the correct stability of disc, the angle of delivery closely mirrors the angle of roll....simple! Easy game! :)



:DIt really is fun to stir things up a little bit because most of you guys are just way too serious... :D

twoputtok
May 24 2005, 05:46 PM
****, where is Limp Pimp when you need him. :D

discgolfreview
May 24 2005, 05:50 PM
thanks to those who support me :)

however, i don't mind people being skeptical of what i have to say as on the surface i don't have the "credentials" such as a high rating, a load of tournament wins, a 3 digit pdga #, etc. i hope i don't come off as defensive in this post, as it's more just my own reply coming from my point of view.

Dave D. has been my online mentor/info source, while my local mentors for the past 5 years have been a pair of ex-overalls pro grandmasters with sub-500 pdga numbers. i also have done hundreds of hours of video study and launched barrages of questions at the local distance guru as well as spent months where i was throwing 250+ drives a day every day it didn't rain. my focus has been on disc/technique knowledge and developing a complete set of disc skills often at the expense of my scores as i would rather attempt to throw the "best" shot for the given situation even if i fail in execution as that is the natural progression of learning.

now that i think about it, more than 50% of what i write is generally just a regurgitation of posts several years old back from when Dave D. posted more in this section as well as players like Stokely and Climo would make occasional posts.

the majority of the advice i give is from my experience working with many players and coming from two assumptions: 1) most people posting looking for advice are "up and coming," have not yet solidified their technique/game, and are at or approaching one of the first two distance plateaus (~280' and ~360') and 2) most players that started in 2002-present began with discs that were too fast/overstable and developed compensation in their techniques to deal with it. a third "sub-assumption" that is true in many cases (if they are players that hold true to assumptions 1 and 2 are that a substantial number of players want to throw every shot flat and use discs to adjust the flight rather than change their form.

part of the limitations of message boards are that i have to work from a base set of assumptions as very few players can fully describe their throwing form in a way that others can adequately picture without physically seeing them throw.

as for my comments about sidearm rollers, i feel it's a safe assumption to say that more than 50% of players torque their sidearms and are forced to throw very overstable discs. for someone that needs a max weight champ firebird to throw a sidearm straight, popping a leopard or xl in their hands = sidearm turnover roller. as for a short range controlled roller, it only takes a few tries to dump a disc down in front of you and watch it roll to learn its behaviors. from my experience teaching rollers, i have found more people struggle learning the backhand roller as it takes quite a bit of technique adjustment whereas the sidearm roller is a bit more intuitive. after spending several months working with a few players that had very bad torque issues with their backhand technique (they were dropping their throwing shoulder like you would on a roller on every throw) and after finally overcoming those issues, it just seems for most players to be a greater step to manipulate their shoulder rotation and body angles as required for certain backhand roller types.

600' with a sidearm roller is a crush. i've only seen a handful of players who could throw a legit 400' sidearm, and even less with the finesse to do it with flippy plastic. they also aren't the ones posting asking for advice on rolling.

overall, i guess i would revise what i wrote to say: i believe it is easier to learn to throw a 150-250' sidearm roller than a backhand roller.

if you want to say people are too serious it is only that most people posting here with legitimate questions are seeking serious answers.

cbdiscpimp
May 24 2005, 05:59 PM
****, where is Limp Pimp when you need him.



Im right here but I think Blakes site is great and have gone to it quite a few times to try and figure some things out. It has helped every time. If scholarship boy wants to knock Blake then let him. Blake and the rest of us know that scholarship boy must have his head stuck up his rear :D

Plus he shouldnt be talking with that MASSIVE 902 rating of his. Looks like those 25+ year of playin have done LOADS for your game :eek:

oklaoutlaw
May 24 2005, 06:13 PM
****, where is Limp Pimp when you need him.



Im right here but I think Blakes site is great and have gone to it quite a few times to try and figure some things out. It has helped every time. If scholarship boy wants to knock Blake then let him. Blake and the rest of us know that scholarship boy must have his head stuck up his rear :D

Plus he shouldnt be talking with that MASSIVE 902 rating of his. Looks like those 25+ year of playin have done LOADS for your game :eek:



:DWill you please keep posting, I am rolling here this is really funny. And to think I actually thought I was going to have a pretty boring day :D

slo
May 24 2005, 06:27 PM
...Plus he shouldnt be talking with that MASSIVE 902 rating of his. Looks like those 25+ year of playin have done LOADS for your game :eek:

Yeah, but to be fair, that's shown a sure, yet steady growth, over the last few years...Thomas should be threatening Advanced's 915 level by the 2020's. ;)

twoputtok
May 24 2005, 06:28 PM
I just aksed where you were, I figured you would have ALL of the answers anyone could ask for. :D

By the way, did you get to tell them on this thread about your victory at the Memorial and your 7th place at Bowling Green? :D

May 24 2005, 06:30 PM
1) most people posting looking for advice are "up and coming," have not yet solidified their technique/game, and are at or approaching one of the first two distance plateaus (~280' and ~360')



Blake,
Let me also add my thanks for your website, very informative. I have wondered about the nature of these plateus, as I have now reached them and it is frustrating.

So, it is bad technique that causes the plateau?
Why is the plateau so consistent distance-wise?

I've read your articles about increasing distance from the ground up. What would you consider the most important factors to breaking the 400' barrier consistently?

Once that barrier is broken, is 500' around the corner?

Keep on keeping on, bro. Your dedication is appreciated!

Peace

cbdiscpimp
May 24 2005, 06:33 PM
:eek:

oklaoutlaw
May 24 2005, 06:45 PM
...Plus he shouldnt be talking with that MASSIVE 902 rating of his. Looks like those 25+ year of playin have done LOADS for your game :eek:

Yeah, but to be fair, that's shown a sure, yet steady growth, over the last few years...Thomas should be threatening Advanced's 915 level by the 2020's. ;)



Now wait.....let's see my mentor PDGA 001 his rating was a whopping 736...does that mean he didn't know anything about throwing a disc?????

Tell me...What IS in a rating :D:D

slo
May 24 2005, 08:16 PM
<font color="green">Birthly Suited: Tell me...What IS in a rating</font>

Literally, details (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/player_ratings_detail.php?PDGANum=2446&year=2005) and history (http://www.pdga.com/tournament/player_ratings_history.php?PDGANum=2446&year=2005). ;)

discgolfreview
May 24 2005, 08:59 PM
it is common now for many people to relate rating to knowledge, which is a bad assumption to make. a similar assumption is often made about pdga #.

most of my old fart playing buddies have ratings in the 875-915 range, but they've also been playing for 30 years and can throw every shot known to man, they just don't hit the fairway as often as they once did. i learned how to roll from them as they are experts at it... i think it's that they were around when they invented the wheel, so they are naturally more proficient in things that roll :D

my rating is pretty low (i play around a 910-920, but haven't competed in 3 years due to injuries) and i know there are people out there that write off what i have to say simply due to that.

that is the last i will say on the subject.

back to answering questions now...



So, it is bad technique that causes the plateau?
Why is the plateau so consistent distance-wise?




it's not really bad technique as it is the inability to harness the forces of the body correctly as well as manipulate disc flight. the 280' plateau (this might be more like 310' w/ current discs) is most common with players that strong arm and get very little hip drive. most players get beyond this but i know quite a few who were stuck at it for several years until they really decided to revamp. the 360' plateau is really where people stall if they cannot generate tremendous amounts of snap. this plateau has shifted w/ disc technology as it was more like 330-340' in the gazelle/cyclone era, 350-360' in the eagle/valk era, and is now probably around 380' in the orc/flash era. basically, people do not get enough power to get a disc to lift while still throwing with a fairly line drive trajectory. with 90% of golf discs, you need a significant amount of height to get max D and you need the snap to get the disc to stay nose down given that height. the 360' plateau is the hardest to break since it is almost all based upon timing, feel, and factors that are very difficult to describe to someone who hasn't felt this.



I've read your articles about increasing distance from the ground up. What would you consider the most important factors to breaking the 400' barrier consistently?




timing, snap, strong finish. it almost all comes down to grip and rip. grip will give your potential to harness the rip force/snap. the rip force is very dependent upon timing and technique.

basically, most people shatter 400' when they finally get it. it's like... one day throwing 360' next day throwing 425'.



Once that barrier is broken, is 500' around the corner?




if you can throw a consistent 425' with golf D (semi-line drive, not a 50' high distance anhyzer), then you most likely already have 500' potential if you can utilize the right line. now... there are a handful of players that can throw 500' with a golf shot... but i would say that not all players have this potential. body types, arm length, muscle strength, etc. will come into play.

hope this could help a bit.

bruceuk
May 24 2005, 09:48 PM
Wow, a new record, just 3 posts to "ignore" status. But just before I did that, I noticed this, which really made me ROFLMAO:
From the website of the group that he claims to be director of:
"Creating educational opportunities for the Youth of America through Disc Golf, promoting Good Sportsmanship and Christian Values"

Way to promote the cause, you numpty (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty&defid=420894)

Seriously. Blake, great work, great site, great advice, don't ever stop...

discgolfreview
May 25 2005, 12:54 AM
thanks bruce for the words. before this thread gets uglier, i realized that the original disagreeing post was probably rooted in describing two different shots.

i've never seen anyone (intentionally) throw a sidearm distance roller and my post was referring to controlled sidearm rollers that would hit the ground less than 100' from the throwing position. the controlled roller i spoke of is distance limited, but i agree the sidearm distance roller is a much more difficult shot than a backhand distance roller (which is probably why i have never seen someone throw that shot).

to CGD, i just thought i'd clarify something from my last post. when i talk about "legit D" or consistent D it's generally meaning that players have control to throw lower or (attempt to) throw longer than that D. e.g. someone with "legit" 425' power will treat a 400' shot differently than a 430' shot, whereas someone who usually throws 380' and can occasionally throw 400+ generally will not. for most players at or near the 360' plateau, they will throw adjust for a 330' shot vs. a 360' shot but anything significantly longer than 360' will generally be a bonus rather than the norm.

also i thought i'd bring it up... the 500'+ you referred to isn't all that applicable in 99% of situations. since 95% of holes are shorter than 500', the real advantage of D is being able to throw your slower discs farther... think roc 400' w/ a roc vs. 500' w/ a driver :)

May 25 2005, 02:57 AM
also i thought i'd bring it up... the 500'+ you referred to isn't all that applicable in 99% of situations. since 95% of holes are shorter than 500', the real advantage of D is being able to throw your slower discs farther... think roc 400' w/ a roc vs. 500' w/ a driver



Couldn't agree More with that. You are 100% correct there.

-Scott Lewis

May 25 2005, 10:20 AM
Way to promote the cause, you numpty (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=numpty&defid=420894)




Thanks for the link. I would have spent all day trying to figure out what a "Numpty" was without it. ;)

bruceuk
May 25 2005, 01:25 PM
No worries :D

I think definitions 2&3 are weak, but 1, 4, 6 and 9 are spot on :D :D

May 25 2005, 01:56 PM
Thanks for the replies, Blake.

I also totally agree that the best advantage of big D is being able to throw control shots 300-350'. The first time I saw a local pro throw a Roc when I threw a driver, I knew there was something I was missing... :eek:

My questions stem more from curiosity than anything. For myself, I have stopped actively working to increase my D.
When I consciously try to do so, it is counterproductive. However, working on being smooth and having fun has automatically increased my D without conscious effort. Its a Zen thing, I guess.

Instead, I have been focusing on the things you have stated as being most important: timing, snap, and follow through. Interesting too, as I apparently intuited the secret, or gathered it from the writings on your site. Distance has come with time for me, and I too had that "jump" in D that you mention.

My game now consists of trying to drive consistently, and I've been learning to putt from the shoulder, pitch putt as some call it. These two things have been the most positive for my game since removing my focus from distance. Freddie Funk comes to mind as an example of my paradigm.

Lots of good info here, guys. Thanks!

Peace

May 26 2005, 07:54 PM
basically, people do not get enough power to get a disc to lift while still throwing with a fairly line drive trajectory. with 90% of golf discs, you need a significant amount of height to get max D and you need the snap to get the disc to stay nose down given that height. the 360' plateau is the hardest to break since it is almost all based upon timing, feel, and factors that are very difficult to describe to someone who hasn't felt this.




I didn't mean to kill this thread...

So, I'll ask another question related to the drifting topic.

I've always been interested in this phenomenon of nose-down height. There's not a lot written on this topic, and most of it suffers from that "you'll know it when it happens" scenario.

So, it sounds like adding power to a nose down throw is the best way to ensure proper height for 425'+? Any advice on how to improve this power? Increasing the core component (hip and leg drive), and better rip are at the heart of this process? Are there other critical factors involved?

Again, I've read the articles about grip and rip, but I have no way to conceptualize how to improve on a nose-down shot with height. Any suggestions or drills would be appreciated.
Likewise, any general thoughts or ideas about grip strength, rip, and the nose-down, high height shot/throw are appreciated.

Thanks

the_kid
May 26 2005, 07:58 PM
Be a 16 year old replica of a rubber band or at least that's is what my dad says I am.

discgolfreview
May 28 2005, 03:17 AM
well, there's 3 ways of really throwing high(er)...

1) get a lot of snap/power as mentioned above
2) using angles/disc behavior to get natural lift (such as rising while a hyzer flattens)
3) throwing on a higher trajectory

1 is sort of there or it isn't... adding power is really the only way to get it. 2 just takes practice and knowledge of how to make discs work (is easiest with slower discs that are less overstable, more hyzer = more lift).

the best advice anyone ever gave me on 3 as to how to throw higher and still nose down was simple... just try to throw higher. when i am going for high and nose down i generally just pick a focal point fairly close to the teebox and much higher than i would normally throw and the mechanics adjust on their own.