Last year I was in an awkward spot and wanted to lean against a large tree (immovable, hence my touching it did not change the course) while making a putt. In leaning against the tree, I still had one foot behind the mini marker and all other points of contact were behind that marked lie and in-bounds.

Someone else in the group declared "You can't lean against the tree or use any part of the course to improve your stance." So I didn't, since I wasn't familiar with the rules, he was a Pro Master, and seemed to know his stuff. But having read the rules, now I think he was wrong.

Can a legal stance include touching a tree or other large, immovable solid object that is in-bounds and behind the marked lie, so long as the course is not altered?
Thanks!
Steve

It's a little murky. 803.03A (2) have no supporting point contact with a marker disc or <font color="red"> any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc </font>

The question is whether leaning on a tree trunk that's completely behind the marker is an object that meets the criteria even though a significant part of the tree/object canopy is in front of the marker. I always allow it but with the recent Rules Q&A Obstacle to Stance and Flight Path for objects on the ground like a stick that projects both in front of and behind the marker, I'm technically not so sure leaning should be allowed.

It's another common sense deal where I believe most would allow the leaning because there are other situations where some part of your body might need to be supported by an object with parts of it in front of your lie. For example, in the Rules Q&A cited above, it allows you to stand on the stick that's both in front of and behind the lie, just not move it. Players also throw from lies on flat top boulders where some of the boulder is in front of the lie.

You know more than this "Pro" already, who may never even have read the book.

...next time this happens, you might consider having them show you the "rule"...you carry your rulebook when you play, right right?

Can a legal stance include touching a tree or other large, immovable solid object that is in-bounds and behind the marked lie, so long as the course is not altered?

This issue has already been addressed by the RC in the Rules Q&A. Go look it up for yourself. If you end up spending a couple of hours reading through the list before you find it, so much the better.

Rules Q&A (http://www.pdga.com/rules/qa.php) Sound advise. I've gotta do that next, myself. Well, I appreciate the fact you figured correctly where to post this, Steve. ;) Have fun with the 'search' function, also...threads pertaining to yours and/or similar situations likely already exist. I like to see a preview of the posts, with the searchword in bold, so I click that function.

Happy discing!! :cool:

From the above: "Steve [funny how his name is Steve, eh? ;)] is not allowed to move any obstacle that is totally or partially between his lie and the hole. "

Any? That seems harsh. Somewhere on the road from grass shoot to sequioa, something is going to get moved, if it supports!

803.03 STANCE, Subsequent to Teeing Off
D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the <font color="red"> least </font> movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

From the above: "Steve [funny how his name is Steve, eh? ;)] is not allowed to move any obstacle that is totally or partially between his lie and the hole. "

Any? That seems harsh. Somewhere on the road from grass shoot to sequioa, something is going to get moved, if it supports!

803.03 STANCE, Subsequent to Teeing Off
D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the <font color="red"> least </font> movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course.

You're warm, Slo, but that's not the ruling that directly and specifically addresses the question.

Here is the Q&A ruling (part of it):

"The question can be boiled down to: Can a player hold on to an object behind his lie to maintain balance while throwing/putting?

Applicable rules:

803.03 (Stance)
803.04 (Obstacles and Relief)
804.05 (Disqualification and Suspension)
Discussion:
The rules do not require that you maintain your balance while putting. You can have a grand mal seizure as long as you don't step ahead of your lie. At the time you decide to step ahead of your lie is when you have to demonstrate balance. This is simply to prove that you are not committing a falling putt, such that you would not be able to stop yourself from falling forward due to the motion of your putt. Grabbing a branch is merely acquiring another support point, which is perfectly legal, as long as it is not ahead of your lie.

Holding on to something BEHIND your lie is not prohibited by the rules, provided that the tree that the golfer is using as a supporting point is in-bounds (803.03.A (3)).

The branch must not be moved, or else the player would be in violation of one or both of 803.03.D and 803.04.A, which require you to take the stance that results in the least movement of objects that are part of the course and which prohibit you from moving a branch to "make room for a throwing motion".

Conclusion:
A player can hold on to something behind her lie, in certain circumstances, without violating the PDGA rules. In general that which is not prohibited by the PDGA rules is allowed, provided of course, that the action done by the player is not considered "a willful attempt to circumvent the rules of play". (This, of course, is cheating!)

Other Comments:
Many members of the committee have actually tried to hold on to some object behind their lie, while leaning forward to throw or putt. In our opinion this action makes the ensuing throw/putt MORE difficult to accomplish.

Yours Sincerely
The PDGA Rules Committee"

It's good to know I can lean on solid, immovable objects that are in-bounds and behind my marked lie.

However, with regard to the 803.03 "D. A player must choose the stance that will result in the least movement of any part of any obstacle that is a permanent or integral part of the course."--I and MANY other players I have played with have not complied with this rule, and no one has been penalized. Here at DeLaveaga, there are many opportunities to play from within bushes, under oaks, etc. I have often seen players "settling in" to their stance, digging their feet into the ground (a no-no), shoving their rears into the shrubs (illegal), and I myself have consciously placed my stance and body in a way such that some offending shrubbery is taken out of play due to the nature of my stance--but still not holding anything back with my arm or legs--just my body/back/rear-end. According to the rule, this is all illegal. I have witnessed some cases where the least amount of disturbance would require the thrower to lay on his belly in order to make the shot, since this would disturb the least amount of vegetation. No one has done this.

These are infractions by the letter of the rules, but in my experience no one has been called on it. Usually, the thrower is already in a bad spot--no need to rub salt in, and as long as there is no overt intent to use arms or legs to make throwing space, we just let the guy proceed and hope he makes it out in one piece and has a decent up shot.

Do people actually call throwers on this sort of thing? I've only played about 10 tournaments, all AM, and while we don't tend to know the rules as well (in my experience), I haven't heard of this kind of body positioning being an issue. Usually you dont' go into that kind of situation with the mindset of "OK, let's see how I can make this shot AND determine the least amount of disturbance to the course"--the latter is just not a consideration. But I guess it should be...

Cheers,
Steve

here in texas, you would almost certainly get called for backing into a bush in order to clear the path. five years ago, no problem. but today, we follow this rule much more explicity. we also have no problem at all leaning against the tree tree turnk that is IB and behind the lie.

as far as least movement, that part of the rule cries out for re-writing. it could not-so-ubreasonably be applied to require players to stand tippy toe in order to move the grass less.

It's a little murky. 803.03A (2) have no supporting point contact with a marker disc or any object closer to the hole than the rear edge of the marker disc



Is the planet Earth considered an "object"? If so everyone is violating this rule...

as far as least movement, that part of the rule cries out for re-writing. it could not-so-ubreasonably be applied to require players to stand tippy toe in order to move the grass less.


Glossary
Obstacle: Any feature of the course that may impede any aspect of play.

Does grass "impede any aspect of play"? I suppose if it were tall enough or if one were throwing a roller, it could; though at least in this part of the country, I doubt that grass would be considered a course "feature" (unless you're talking about the kind of grass that could get you slapped with an 804.05.A violation. :D)