TravisGrindle12
Apr 29 2005, 09:30 AM
Heres a possiable situation: Your playing a tournament round when someone in your group gets a upset stomach or other minor medical situation and they need to go to the restroom, or to the car to remedy the situation. What do you do. Right now you would have to stroke the player.

Everyone do you believe that there is a need for a time limited (ex 5min) medical time out rule so a player could take care of a situation like this.

How would you handle the situation.

Parkntwoputt
Apr 29 2005, 09:45 AM
This is just off the cuff so I may or may not be correct. But here is what I would do. Say injury/stomach problem was a minor emergency. If said player were to make the situation known to the other card members that it needed to be remedied quickly, I would allow this player to finish the current hole before everyone else and sacrifice their position in tee off order to the back in order to give them time to take care of business. This would not back up any other groups. It would also have to be agreed upon by the other card members.

In fact this has happend to me in a tournament. I asked to putt out of turn in our group so I could finish the hole and run to the restroom. I told my group I would be back in time to tee off if they would allow me to tee off last. It was fine with them and I made it back in time. This was actually during the finals of the Southern Nationals Championship so it was a big tournament with alot on the line.

If the player does not make it back to tee off, they should be stroked accordingly. But as long as the group is not held up and is in agreement about the situation, I do not foresee a major problem with it.

Anyone with an official opinon on this?

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 11:00 AM
Our rules seem to be pretty clear on this.

<font color="purple"> 803.12 HOLING OUT
A. A player who fails to play any hole or fails to hole out on any hole during the round may be disqualified, at the discretion of the director, using the following guidelines:
(3)Intentionally failing to hole out (emergency, injury, plane flight, etc.) constitutes withdrawal from competition. The player shall be withdrawn from competition and officially listed as "Did Not Finish" on the scorecard and in the event results. </font>

I see that in your example you had a pretty understanding group ready to bend the rules to allow for this player to take care of business, but is it fair to base a ruling on the groups willingness to bend the rules? What if it were the lead group in a National Tour event? Do you think the other players in the group would be so understanding?

Within the rules, the best that would be able to be done, would be IF the away players allowed the player to hole out and run to the restroom or parking lot while they finish the hole. IF they do not allow this, then other than perhaps being seen as cruel, there really is nothing rules wise the effected player can say.

But IF that were allowed. And the effected player was to tee off first, according to score, on the next hole, then according to rules, when everyone arrives at the tee and scores are taken and it is that players turn to throw, they have 30 seconds to throw, or they shall (which believe it or not means �must�) be warned, the player shall be assessed one penalty throw for each subsequent excessive time violation in the same round if observed by two or more players of the group or an official. My understanding is that this would happen after each subsequent player in the group threw. So that if the rest of the group where on their 3rd throw, and it were a 4some, the effected player would be on their 8th penalty throw when they arrived to tee off.

However if the hole is completed by the group and they are on the next tee then the effected player has effectively withdrawn from the event.

This is to the letter of the rule as close as I can tell, more or less how it would play out at the highest level of competition. Our best attempt to provide a fair, competition wide, ruling.

This is not likely how the average disc golfer would deal with it, that would be closer to what you describe I�d venture.

It�s a good question. You should send it to the PDGA Rules Committee for review and comment.

bruce_brakel
Apr 29 2005, 11:13 AM
Assuming that the Excessive Time Rule, 801.03, applies to tee throws, it has built into it an allowance for a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the tee. If you were playing in my group I would always argue that a reasonable amount of time includes a reasonable amount of time to bandage a cut, tie a shoe, run to the bathroom or whatever.

If the Excessive Time Rule does not apply to tee throws, there is no rule specifying how much time you have to get from the basket to the next tee.

gnduke
Apr 29 2005, 11:16 AM
Except for the part about the 8th penalty since the offencing player never received the warning. Upon his arrival, he would be warned and allowed to tee off.

If this were not the case, you could note 15 courtesy violations against another player during the round, and give them all to him on the last hole explaining that the first was a warning, and the last 14 are strokes.

ck34
Apr 29 2005, 11:34 AM
In the GM+ divisions, we prefer applying a very liberal interpretation of "casual relief from an obstacle that became a factor during the round" located between the lie and the "hole." Per 803.04D, the rest of the group discusses amongst themselves while the affected player is off determining whether the obstacle can be 'moved' and relief is available. Meanwhile, we're hoping the group or an official will not need to be summoned for a ruling...

sandalman
Apr 29 2005, 11:43 AM
In the GM+ divisions, we prefer applying a very liberal interpretation of "casual relief from an obstacle that became a factor during the round" located between the lie and the "hole." Per 803.04D, the rest of the group discusses amongst themselves while the affected player is off determining whether the obstacle can be 'moved' and relief is available. Meanwhile, we're hoping the group or an official will not need to be summoned for a ruling...

its comments like these that give the message board a bad name, and make me cring when i think of bringing my wife and baby along with me when certain players will be in the event.

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 11:49 AM
Assuming that the Excessive Time Rule, 801.03, applies to tee throws, it has built into it an allowance for a reasonable amount of time to arrive at the tee. If you were playing in my group I would always argue that a reasonable amount of time includes a reasonable amount of time to bandage a cut, tie a shoe, run to the bathroom or whatever.

If the Excessive Time Rule does not apply to tee throws, there is no rule specifying how much time you have to get from the basket to the next tee.



Please show us where the Excessive Time Rule does not apply to tee throws.

ck34
Apr 29 2005, 11:52 AM
Based on what I know about babies, their need for relief is on par with some of the GMs. (Sandalman, you completely misread the direction of that post)

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 11:55 AM
Except for the part about the 8th penalty since the offencing player never received the warning. Upon his arrival, he would be warned and allowed to tee off.

If this were not the case, you could note 15 courtesy violations against another player during the round, and give them all to him on the last hole explaining that the first was a warning, and the last 14 are strokes.



A warning for being absent does not need to be given "to" the offending player (how could it when they might never show up?). The alternative to using the excessive time, would be that the player has simply "withdrawn" from the event.

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 11:56 AM
Based on what I know about babies, their need for relief is on par with some of the GMs. (Sandalman, you completely misread the direction of that post)



He specializes in that Chuck.

Dick
Apr 29 2005, 12:04 PM
nick, say the player is warned for taking mor ethan 30 seconds to throw. i ddn't see anywhere in the rules that the countdown of 30 seconds begins again immediately after the first 30 seconds has expired. thus if the person takes 5 minutes to get to the tee and we are waiting on them to throw, they can only be warned for excessive time if it is the first violation and stroked once if they have already been warned.

to change my opinion on this you would have to prove to me that the rules state taking 5 minutes isn't the same as taking 1 minute. also if someone were to continue to play the hole instead of waiting for a player who said they would be right back, it would seem to violate the order of play rule.

Apr 29 2005, 12:26 PM
Heres a possiable situation: Your playing a tournament round when someone in your group gets a upset stomach or other minor medical situation and they need to go to the restroom, or to the car to remedy the situation. What do you do. Right now you would have to stroke the player.

Actually, you don't: any player in the group may request a ruling by an official, causing the group to stand aside (803.00.C(2)) while the ruling is being obtained. If necessary, the official's ruling may be appealed to the TD, thereby extending the "time out." (I posed a similar question to Carlton Howard at the Zebulon Cha-ching and Zing last year, and that was the gist of his reply.)

Apr 29 2005, 12:34 PM
Please show us where the Excessive Time Rule does not apply to tee throws.

You mean aside from the fact that there is no disc for the player to arrive at and no lie to mark?
803.03 EXCESSIVE TIME
A. A maximum of 30 seconds is allowed to each player to make a throw after:
(1) the previous player has thrown; and,
(2) the player has taken a reasonable time to arrive at the disc and mark the lie; and,
(3) the playing area is clear and free of distractions.

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 12:43 PM
nick, say the player is warned for taking mor ethan 30 seconds to throw. i ddn't see anywhere in the rules that the countdown of 30 seconds begins again immediately after the first 30 seconds has expired. thus if the person takes 5 minutes to get to the tee and we are waiting on them to throw, they can only be warned for excessive time if it is the first violation and stroked once if they have already been warned.

to change my opinion on this you would have to prove to me that the rules state taking 5 minutes isn't the same as taking 1 minute. also if someone were to continue to play the hole instead of waiting for a player who said they would be right back, it would seem to violate the order of play rule.



Like I said this is a good question and should be sent to the PDGA Rules Committee. We shouldn't have to rely on the inventiveness of players in attendence.

My contention is that after the 30 seconds and the player is not there, it would be the next players turn, then the missing players turn subsequently after each player in their group throws.

I however like the idea raised that being unsure of the correct ruling the group should step aside until an official could provide the correct ruling (or official ruling, since I being an official am unsure what the exact correct ruling is in this case). Certainly if the player missed an entire hole, they would be marked as having "withdrawn", but if they just show up late and the hole has not yet been completed I would likely rule using the excessive time rule, since I don't think waiting around or going out of order trumps it.

Still, having this answered in an Official PDGA Rules Q & A would end all discussion, and that is the only way to ensure fairness.

rhett
Apr 29 2005, 01:21 PM
Geez, I can be as anal as the next guy, moreso actually, but if someone on your card is having a Code-3 Emergency and has to run to the can to care of the squirts, the group should stand aside and let a group or two play through.

sandalman
Apr 29 2005, 01:35 PM
actually no i didnt. i'm quite sure that i read it exactly as you meant it. based on your response, i am equally convince you completely misread my post, though, and overestimated my seriousness by a substantial margin. :D

ck34
Apr 29 2005, 01:42 PM
I can understand your reluctance to having your wife and kid around some old farts (literally). Heck, even those of us in that age bracket don't want to be around some of them...

sandalman
Apr 29 2005, 01:48 PM
somehow my kid learned to laugh at farts before she was a year old. i've no idea how that happened. but my wife is NOT impressed! :eek:

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 02:30 PM
Geez, I can be as anal as the next guy, moreso actually, but if someone on your card is having a Code-3 Emergency and has to run to the can to care of the squirts, the group should stand aside and let a group or two play through.



I think I acknowledge what the average group of golfers was likely to do, what I am after, and what this topic is after, is what is the correct ruling for such situations, to that I am trying to provide useful interpretations of the rules.

<font color="purple"> 801.02 ORDER OF PLAY
D. During tournament play, no group may play through the group ahead unless the group ahead is required to stand aside in accordance with the rules or as directed by an official. </font>

I'd be as interested as anyone as to where you find in the rules a requirement that the group stand aside because a member has to use the facilities?

There may well be, but I don't see it.

I concede that I, like anyone, am more likely to err on side of understanding in such a situation, I just want to explore the possibility of a clear and understandable interpretation of the rules so that everyone can come to a similar ruling in such cases.

If everyone is coming to a different conclusion then "fairness" will definitely take a hit on the chin.

dave_marchant
Apr 29 2005, 02:47 PM
<font color="purple"> 801.02 ORDER OF PLAY
D. During tournament play, no group may play through the group ahead unless the group ahead is required to stand aside in accordance with the rules or as directed by an official. </font>

I'd be as interested as anyone as to where you find in the rules a requirement that the group stand aside because a member has to use the facilities?



That's an easy one - he is trying to find an official in the restroom to ask the exact question that is being posed on this thread. :eek: :D

Dick
Apr 29 2005, 02:49 PM
still waiting on where you found that after 30 seconds it's the next guys turn.

i still think this falls under the excessive time warning. if the delay causes the person to be more than 30 seconds late to throw, they deserve a warning, as per the rules. whether it's 45 seconds or 5 minutes.

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 04:08 PM
still waiting on where you found that after 30 seconds it's the next guys turn.

i still think this falls under the excessive time warning. if the delay causes the person to be more than 30 seconds late to throw, they deserve a warning, as per the rules. whether it's 45 seconds or 5 minutes.



So if someone doesn't show up for their shot the group should just wait until they do in order to officially warn them. If they never show up the group should just set up camp until they do even if it is days later?

If a warning and strokes were not incurred then the folks throwing in the mean time would, as you point out, have been throwing out of turn and have broken the courtesy rule.

So what ruling do you see in this situation Rich?

rhett
Apr 29 2005, 05:13 PM
I'd be as interested as anyone as to where you find in the rules a requirement that the group stand aside because a member has to use the facilities?

There may well be, but I don't see it.


803.00.E

neonnoodle
Apr 29 2005, 05:18 PM
I'd be as interested as anyone as to where you find in the rules a requirement that the group stand aside because a member has to use the facilities?

There may well be, but I don't see it.


803.00.E



Any chance of you being a tad more specific?

rhett
Apr 29 2005, 06:03 PM
803.00.E

Any chance of you being a tad more specific?


803.00.E Rule of Fairness. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision shall be made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness.

When given the situation of someone on the card crapping their pants, being forced to DNF, or being allowed to go use a restroom, allowing them to go use a bathroom passes the "fair" test. Allowing a group or two to play through while this occurs, which is allowed under other rules for specific reasons, passes the "reasonable" test.

Dick
Apr 29 2005, 06:39 PM
i see the ruling being that yes, the group would have to wait for 3 days. at least according to the rules as written. as you said before, i'm not saying the rule is right, just that the way it is written that would be the case. obviously, the person would either be right back or let you know he was withdrawing most likely so the group could continue. but my main point is that you could not dnf someone for taking 5 minutes to go to the bathroom. according to the rules you could only warn them.

obviously most groups would use the fairness rule as rhett suggested. omigod, i agreed with rhett! i think the world as we know it may be coming to an end. if anyone is out playing this weekend watch out for locusts!

bruce_brakel
Apr 29 2005, 06:58 PM
And even then, the rules as written would allow that warning only for a throw from a lie, and not for a throw from a tee.

I think at this point 803.00(E) kicks in. If there is no clear rule against it, and it is not some clever way to circumvent the rules, you have to give the benefit of the ambiguity to the player.

Meanwhile, I agree with the original poster that a timeout rule would be appropriate. If you get bonked in the head or in some soft area Terry would not want us to mention on a family website, it seems appropriate to allow you to take a few minutes to recover. There are a lot of circumstances where it would be appropriate to delay play.

On the other hand, maybe we don't need a rule. We just need to not play in Nick's foursome. I think Nick is alone here arguing that you can stroke someone for going to the bathroom between holes.

sandalman
Apr 29 2005, 07:03 PM
nick just likes to stroke people.

of course, he is the one who told me he would do everything within hisd power to dq me, and suspend me from the pdga, if i ever enforced every foot fault i saw.

really!

go figure.

rhett
Apr 29 2005, 07:04 PM
of course, [nikc] is the one who told me he would do everything within hisd power to dq me, and suspend me from the pdga, if i ever enforced every foot fault i saw.

really!

go figure.


I remember that. Nick really said it!

Plankeye
Apr 29 2005, 07:08 PM
I could have used a timeout at last year's Sneeky Peete. I was on the third card advanced after the first round but right when the second round was about to start my stomach started to cramp up and I really could have used a bathroom timeout.

Needless to say, i had a bad second round because i was struggling trying to throw a drive without "letting it go"

Plankeye
Apr 29 2005, 07:08 PM
I could have used a timeout at last year's Sneeky Peete. I was on the third card advanced after the first round but right when the second round was about to start my stomach started to cramp up and I really could have used a bathroom timeout.

Needless to say, i had a bad second round because i was struggling trying to throw a drive without "letting it go"

Jeannie
Apr 30 2005, 12:04 PM
Just think about what it is like for the women. You're talking about the occasional time when your "stomach" is bothering you. Imagine what it would be like if everytime you guys had to take a [*****], you couldn't just pull up a tree. This is a serious issue for women. Or at least for me. I drink a lot of water during a round and I have to play every tournament holding it, if it is not a heavily wooded course in full bloom or without a big enough tree to hide by big as :eek: behind. This is not as easy as you think when there are groups spread out throughout the woods. It's hard to play while holding it and absolutely affects my game! We definately need some clarification for this because I definately want to know what I am supposed to do or what I am allowed to do. I really am tired of having to hold it. I have asked this question many times and am always told, I guess you have to hold it.

neonnoodle
Apr 30 2005, 12:14 PM
5{ e]of course, [nikc] is the one who told me he would do everything within hisd power to dq me, and suspend me from the pdga, if i ever enforced every foot fault i saw.

really!

go figure.

[/QUOTE]
I remember that. Nick really said it!

[/QUOTE]

Oxymoron: Rhett Stroh and Pat Brenner's unbiased opinion on Nick Kight.

I'm sure that there is no loss of context in that quote either; such as Pat making all of those calls due to a grudge or petty reasons. Everyone knows after all that Pat is never petty or ever holds a grudge for more than one lifetime. LOL! Ha ha hah!

It would be my duty as a defender or righteousness to get you DQed on principle Pat, though I'm sure you'd be more than obliging in providing ample cause�
;)

May 04 2005, 12:30 AM
Best thing to do when you get the Hersheys is to go with the flow, and after the round just throw your jockies out. And stick some paper towels down there in case it happens again.

I mean really, what is the likelihood that there is a rest room within 20 minutes of the hole you are playing? Most places all the bathrooms are closed or there is one bathroom near hole 1, that's it.

1. Don't drink grapefruit juice for breakfast
2. If lactose is a problem no ice cream last night
3. If you have the problem often, wear a diaper

May 04 2005, 12:42 AM
well I believe there is more of a case here than just bowel problems. what about a bee sting? it hurts like hell and may require someone to have a shot, but won't require DNFing. same thing with a gaping wound that might need bandaged/cleaned but doesn't completely take you out of it. This is a serious question that I'd like to see posed to the rules committee by the original poster (don't remember who that was at this point -- sorry!).

TravisGrindle12
May 04 2005, 09:28 AM
you are correct, there are many minor things that could happen that you cannot prepare for by haveing the cure in your bag. I believe this a issue that needs to be discussed and thanks for people really commenting on the subject and not just "BS'n it.

Parkntwoputt
May 04 2005, 09:31 AM
TTGAJJC,

Have you posted this question to the rules committee yet?

TravisGrindle12
May 04 2005, 09:33 AM
not formally, once we get through our C-tier this weekend i am going to talk to carlton.

May 05 2005, 01:50 AM
I'd vote for up to 25 minute wait for emergencies before DNFing a guy, same as for late scorecards.

Now if a guy habitually has a problem that takes more than 5 minutes (e.g. bad #2) and doesn't take good-faith measures to keep from unduly slowing the group/tourney down (e.g., diapers, shovel, trash bag) then I think the TD can warn the guy the first time and on the 2nd "emergency" in the tourney, the group/TD can vote the guy off the island and continue on with the round.

---------------

As for women and #1/#2, it's simple:
get a strong reinforced golf bag (cooler?)
take out the discs
line bag with trash bag #1
wrap trash bag #2, around your waist
get 'er done.

And yeah, do it right in the middle of the fairway.
Enlightened people will complement you on how "French" you are becoming :)

May 11 2005, 12:25 PM
Outstanding, Now thats funny! ;) :D:D