Why did the PDGA allow this with the current Pro/Adv float rules?

There have been a few people that have contacted KY about dropping out of the Pro Xtown to play in the tourny in Ashville.

STUPID STUPID STUPID....

If you wanted to do this, then you should have let it happen last year that way the AMs and ADV in NC that were not good enough to play Pro Xtown(or didn't want to spend the 125$) could go to Ashville.

Why did the PDGA allow this with the current Pro/Adv float rules?

There have been a few people that have contacted KY about dropping out of the Pro Xtown to play in the tourny in Ashville.

STUPID STUPID STUPID....

If you wanted to do this, then you should have let it happen last year that way the AMs and ADV in NC that were not good enough to play Pro Xtown(or didn't want to spend the 125$) could go to Ashville.

I would hazard the guess that the decision was made without considering the possible impact of the pro/am float rule on attendance at the X-town, or even recognizing that the "float rule" COULD possibly impact attendance at a pro-only event.

In theory, at least, an AM-only event should not impact attendance at a Pro-only event on the same weekend. Realistically, how many AMS and ADVs who aren't good enough or don't want to pay the $125 entry fee to play the Pro X-town would have forked over the money and played the X-town if there weren't a tournament in Ashville? Were it not for the new-this-year policy allowing <950-rated Pros to compete as AMs, would this even have come up?

the decision came about due to the fact that the asheville event coincides with a whole festival that was planned out and they had the date then the PDGA released the NT schedule and said they couldnt have a Pro Am event the same weekend as a NT
MJ

At least we still get to have the joy of the Mountain Sports Festival. It would be a huge loss to the promotion of the sport if we didn't. Anyone who was witness to last years urban skins know what kind of positive publicity was gained for free. James, Ryan, Slim, Chad and all of the rest of the mountain folk know what's going on. Kudos Asheville!

the decision came about due to the fact that the asheville event coincides with a whole festival that was planned out and they had the date then the PDGA released the NT schedule and said they couldnt have a Pro Am event the same weekend as a NT
MJ



Thanks for the explanation MJo

At least we still get to have the joy of the Mountain Sports Festival. It would be a huge loss to the promotion of the sport if we didn't. Anyone who was witness to last years urban skins know what kind of positive publicity was gained for free. James, Ryan, Slim, Chad and all of the rest of the mountain folk know what's going on. Kudos Asheville!



Yeah that is awesome. It just sucks that they coincide on the same weekend.

I really can't complain.......I'm under 955......for now.

poor planning indeed, But might i suggest people write a respectful email(like I already have) stateing there displeasure with the situation to the tour manager instead of ragging out those in charge on a discussion thread.

we can change things for years to come this way.

A little clarification.

The NT schedule was set in stone in October of 2004. Way before we found out when the Asheville event was going to be.

My initial position was that the PDGA should never sanction 2 PDGA's in NC on the same weekend. I was asked by someone I truly respect to change my position. I gave my blessing before I knew about the Players below a certain rating being allowed to "drop down".

I am not going to say I regret my decision. But, I am very disappointed that the Crosstown (a National Tour!!!) is losing players to a C-tier.

It is situations like this that make me doubt my commitment to running the Crosstown.

Why do I bother?

Kirk

This wouldn't have been an issue if the "float rule" wasn't in place this year.

And I don't mean to blast out either TD. I just wanted to knwo why the PDGA allowed this to happen.

A little clarification.

The NT schedule was set in stone in October of 2004. Way before we found out when the Asheville event was going to be.

My initial position was that the PDGA should never sanction 2 PDGA's in NC on the same weekend. I was asked by someone I truly respect to change my position. I gave my blessing before I knew about the Players below a certain rating being allowed to "drop down".

I am not going to say I regret my decision. But, I am very disappointed that the Crosstown (a National Tour!!!) is losing players to a C-tier.

It is situations like this that make me doubt my commitment to running the Crosstown.

Why do I bother?

Kirk



Kirk you work really hard, and you probably deserve a ton more kudos than what you get.

Kirk in my opinon you should have never been put in that position. I have let David G Know my thoughts i encourage everyone to do the same.

And as far as people dropping out, I would consider there entry fee a nice sponsorship for the x-town.

I doubt it....

Kirk in my opinon you should have never been put in that position. I have let David G Know my thoughts i encourage everyone to do the same.

And as far as people dropping out, I would consider there entry fee a nice sponsorship for the x-town.



I think if someone drops out of an event a certain number of days before an event, his/her entry fee is supposed to be refunded(i think i read that somewhere on some document last year)

Kirk,
I can certainly empathize with your frustrations. Lower end players like myself, even with potential, have a hard time justifying the increased fees to play, even if we could have the chance to play with Barry, Ken, Walt, etc.. My rating is still low enough where it is a no-brainer. Others have a much more dillemic (not sure if this is a word) choice to ponder. Crosstown is a NT, but also would be more difficult from a statistical point based on the quality of players to do well if you are on the lower end. I remember my pro-induction at Oak Hollow last year. We as ams could register for $20 I think, as long as you played in the am weekend. I believe if that kind of offer existed for us ams at the crosstown, the numbers may have increased. Asheville only started to publicize their event recently, and shouldn't be the full blame for low turnouts to the crosstown. It's a lot of money for an am/lower rated pro. Lower entry fees = more players, bottom line. I believe the issue at hand has several levels. With that said, don't give up. I look forward to playing your events in the future.

This is just another example of why players that have accepted cash should not be allowed to move back down unless he/she petitions the PDGA.

Craig,

I am not blaming Asheville. Their schedule was also set in stone with no way to change the weekend.

I wanted to offer a lower entry fee to Ams but as a National Tour I was not allowed that luxury.

Kirk

This is just another example of why players that have accepted cash should not be allowed to move back down unless he/she petitions the PDGA.


Why? The players can simply not play the NT, too. You can't force anyone to play a tourney.

Maybe that rule needs to change?

I never said you could force them to play the NT. But the NT needs the local pros to participate.

When you give a local pro(that has a rating lower than 955) the option of playing a NT event or moving down and playing advanced in a C-tier, you know they will choose the C-tier.

There just aren't enough pros out there that feel comfortable trying to play with Walt, Kenny, Brinster, etc.


It is sad that there are people that originally signed up for the crosstown are actually thinking about backing out and playing adv.

agreed Rhett but people are considering dropping out to play in a am only c-tier that IMO is bending the ancillary rule by have ams qualify to win money through a PDGA sanctioned event.
I cant blame people for wanting to go and win that kinda of cash.

It tells me that we might not really have the player base that we think we have for the NT, and that the expanded NT might be ahead of its time.

Let's face it, pros rated under 955 have little chance of cashing in an NT event anyway, and could just as easily bail to play unsanctioned money doubles somewhere else. Relying on volunteer donors to prop up the tour won't work for long, and that time might be up now.

Just a thought. Not meant to slam any players and especially not any events.

Wouldn't JJ's accepting discs as a payout for a pro event IYO also bend the ancillary rule?

This isn't a slam, but I just want to know what the PDGA was thinking.

Did they really think that it wouldn't affect the Pro Xtown attendance?

but people are considering dropping out to play in a am only c-tier that IMO is bending the ancillary rule by have ams qualify to win money through a PDGA sanctioned event


Please clue me in on the cash aspect of an Am C-tier. Is it cash skins?

If that is the case, then it is a bad deal. Am only tourneys shouldn't be allowed to pay out any cash. I guess we need to close that loop-hole.

Can the C-tier TD be talked into offering merch skins since his event is am-only? Seems reasonable since his tourney wouldn't even be sanctioned if the NT TD didn't agree.

I think if JJ accepted any merchandise as a Pro(except for a trophy and CTPs), it would violate the "Chris Lee" rule and he would be considered a Pro then.

This is why Jeff Yahn, Dustin Lynch, and MTL did not accept the discs when they played pro at the RIPT Raiser.

Wouldn't JJ's accepting discs as a payout for a pro event IYO also bend the ancillary rule?



No, It would actually break rule 804.8 section F. I don't believe that this happened after the rule was changed. In fact i don't believe that it ever happened.

Rhett,

I'm sorry but you are wrong!!!

Last year players as low as 943 cashed at the Crosstown.

It is not that hard to shoot -1.5 per rounf at Cedar and Zeb.

Kirk

but people are considering dropping out to play in a am only c-tier that IMO is bending the ancillary rule by have ams qualify to win money through a PDGA sanctioned event


Please clue me in on the cash aspect of an Am C-tier. Is it cash skins?

If that is the case, then it is a bad deal. Am only tourneys shouldn't be allowed to pay out any cash. I guess we need to close that loop-hole.

Can the C-tier TD be talked into offering merch skins since his event is am-only? Seems reasonable since his tourney wouldn't even be sanctioned if the NT TD didn't agree.



Kirk said earlier that when he agreed to the tourny being held the same weekend as the NT event, he didn't know about the "float" rule.

The skins is outside of the tourny. It is just available to the player with the top 4 scores.

I jsut wonder if they can used scores from a PDGA tourny to determine who would be able to play for skins in a non-sanctioned part.

Travis, you have mail.

Will
Thats my point. They are useing the scores!!

If it is a private event, I would think they could use any criteria to run it they want.

The skins is outside of the tourny. It is just available to the player with the top 4 scores.

I jsut wonder if they can used scores from a PDGA tourny to determine who would be able to play for skins in a non-sanctioned part.


That's a pretty weak argument for giving cash to ams, as the skins are an obvious extension of the tournament if the only way you get to play skins is to finish at the top of the tourney.

If the cash skins are what is drawing players away, then that is the problem. Am tournaments should not be paying cash to anybody.

Here's my .02 on the Asheville / Crosstown conflict...... I have been considering playing the Pro Crosstown this year, but in the Masters division. Since this year, the Masters are not playing the same courses (Buckhorn instead of Zebulon), the Masters don't get the option to qualify for USDGC. Plus the Masters field is typically pretty small. Regardless, I was still thinking of forking over the big money to play in the Crosstown.......... THEN I see the info about the tournament in Asheville. For me, this looks like a great opportunity for me to play a course that I like..... party with some friends..... and possibly win some side cash in the skins if I shoot well enough in the regular tournament. Since I'm still doing this to have fun...... I think I'll be in Asheville that weekend. Not to mention I can see some music up there too.

Last year players as low as 943 cashed at the Crosstown.

It is not that hard to shoot -1.5 per rounf at Cedar and Zeb.


Duly noted. :)

And you are going to be inducted into team TNT at the party with your friends! :D

..... and possibly win some side cash in the skins if I shoot well enough in the regular tournament.


Paying ams cash is a bunch of bull. And it is that BS that seems to be at the heart of this controversy. Has the PDGA Competition director been contacted?

The skins is outside of the tourny. It is just available to the player with the top 4 scores.

I jsut wonder if they can used scores from a PDGA tourny to determine who would be able to play for skins in a non-sanctioned part.


That's a pretty weak argument for giving cash to ams, as the skins are an obvious extension of the tournament if the only way you get to play skins is to finish at the top of the tourney.

If the cash skins are what is drawing players away, then that is the problem. Am tournaments should not be paying cash to anybody.



Rhett, I was just trying say that it was not a part of the "official event" even though they use the scores to determine who will get ot play for the skins.

I don't agree with giving cash to AMs until it is via an Ace pool(which isn't sanctioned by the PDGA).

And yes, I think the possibility of playing for skins are a huge part of the reason why some people are dropping from the NT event.

..... and possibly win some side cash in the skins if I shoot well enough in the regular tournament.


Paying ams cash is a bunch of bull. And it is that BS that seems to be at the heart of this controversy. Has the PDGA Competition director been contacted?



I doubt it as this only surfaced today.

Rhett, I was just trying say that it was not a part of the "official event" even though they use the scores to determine who will get ot play for the skins.


Not calling you weak. :) Thanks for the info.

But trying to claim that skins that are based on scores from a tournament that ended moments before the skins started, by whoever is trying to claim that, is such a weak argument that it is insulting. Of course those CA$H skins are part of the am tournament!

Wild Wings Cafe paying skins competitors in a non-pdga event cash is good though, right?

But you are using a PDGA event to qualify for the skins.

Last year when this event happened, I think it was all pros that ended up playing for the skins.

It tells me that we might not really have the player base that we think we have for the NT, and that the expanded NT might be ahead of its time.

Let's face it, pros rated under 955 have little chance of cashing in an NT event anyway, and could just as easily bail to play unsanctioned money doubles somewhere else. Relying on volunteer donors to prop up the tour won't work for long, and that time might be up now.



agreed...

No, Wild Wings is choosing only a limited number of players based on their own criteria.

But you are using a PDGA event to qualify for the skins.



To me this is a great way for the town of Asheville to show it's support for disc golf and to generate exposure for the sport. I don't see anything wrong with a particular restaurant (or other business) inviting the top finishers to play in the streets of Asheville in front of a big group of people...... and even better if they want to throw in some money for this non-sanctioned event. Last year, the crowd enjoyed the skins so much, that they passed the hat to get more money to keep it going. Whether I play in it or not..... it sounds like FUN.

I find it interesting that last year, everybody spoke very highly of this event..... yet now that some people are opting to play this instead of another event, it's nothing but whining and b*tching. Waaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh.

But the only reason why they are playing is because you can possibly play for skins.

Plus there are people dropping out of a NT event for this C tier event.

No, Wild Wings is choosing only a limited number of players based on their own criteria.



Um...you might want to read the tourny thread:


from what i understand.....
two rounds at richmond hill on sat., skins to follow for the leaders of all divisions after the first two rounds. 1000$ total purse.
second day, final two rounds at richmond hill, awards ceremony, and skins to follow for the top four scores overall. 2000$ total purse.
the skins are a seperate, non-sanctioned event, pay out in cash.
ryan, correct me if i am wrong.




Thats right Easy_Green

That's a cop out. Asheville runs the best tournament of any I have played in, including several NT events. If you have played in it, you know what I mean.

That is BS! There are a few people one here that have said that one of the reasons they are playing is because of the possibility of playing for cash skins.

I read "the skins are a seperate non-sanctioned event"

Now the pot is going to boil, David G. is reading the thread. :D

But the only reason why they are playing is because you can possibly play for skins.

Plus there are people dropping out of a NT event for this C tier event.



Some people may be only playing for the possible opportunity to get in on the skins...... Others are playing because this is a great event and a chance to HAVE FUN playing disc golf. Looks to me that people now have two choices and it's up to them to decide which one they want to play. Personally I'd like to do both...... but I haven't finished my cloning machine yet.

Now would anybody have a problem with this if certain players in the tournament were given the chance to play skins in something other than disc golf? like bowling.... or poker..... or darts?

The skins are a secondary issue and I could not care less.

A tourny is scheduled in NC the same weekend as a NT event. If this happened last year, this would not be an issue because some of the pros wouldn't be able to weasel back down to the ADV field.

or Bocce, the Polish National Pastime. :D

I agree IDM, more skins for true ams. :o

I am sure it is a great event. I heard very good words about it, and if I had the money I would be playing up there.

The main issue is(and I didn't bring up the idea about the skins) that the PDGA has a NT and another event in the same state on the same weekend.

When some people signed up to play the crosstown, they didn't know about the Mountain Experience. Now that they do, they are like...Oooh my rating is below 955, I can go up there to Ashville and play as an advanced player.

And that is bad for the NT event.

Can't believe the attention this thread is getting..... yet no posts from Schweb, MTL, CuTT, Yahn.....or TT.

MTL is on the way to Am World Doubles.

It is great though for the publicity of disc golf. I guarantee more spectators in Asheville than Raleigh, and we obviously know they have more backing from the community and it's businesses.

The Raleigh guys must be having fun at the TTowers.

The main issue is that the PDGA has a NT and another event in the same state on the same weekend.

When some people signed up to play the crosstown, they didn't know about the Mountain Experience. Now that they do, they are like...Oooh my rating is below 955, I can go up there to Ashville and play as an advanced player.

And that is bad for the NT event.



It definitely sucks that there is a conflict at all, but they did get PDGA approval based on it just being an AM only tournament. I'm just glad I'm a registered AM with a rating under 955 and can choose where I want to play. The whole Pros under 955 is another can of worms.

I am just going to play intermediate and play for the skins. :o 914 for now.

Will, shouldn't you renew your membership before this is even a legitimate issue for you?

The whole Pros under 955 is another can of worms.



That is why I started this thread in the first place.

When did they decide on the "float" rule? Did they decide it before or after certain events were approved? Cause it sounds like Kirk agreed to this before he knew about the "float" rule.

I am just going to play intermediate and play for the skins. :o 914 for now.

Will, shouldn't you renew your membership before this is even a legitimate issue for you?



I did. I renewed at Buckhorn Open...but RADL hasn't sent my info in *grrrrrrr* At least RADL gave me a soft card until they send my info in.

Why not use your membership dues as a contribution towards the crosstown to make up for.......J/K........I'm going to bed now.

Was the PDGA informed that there would be cash skins before it sanctioned the Ashville tournament as an AM event? If not, it seems to me that it would be within the purview of the Competition Director to rule�and I believe he SHOULD rule�that any player who accepts cash won in the skins game relinquishes his/her amateur status. (I also think that this situation illustrates why the "float rule," in its current form, is a bad idea, and that it should be suspended pending further study and refinement.)

Regardless of who is putting up the money, the offer of a cash prize in conjunction with a sanctioned AM tournament flunks the smell test because eligibility to compete for the skins is based on finishing in the top four, therefore, one of the prizes to be won in the tournament is a chance to compete for cash.

The argument that the cash skins game is an ancillary contest, similar to an ace pool, simply does not stand up to scrutiny since an ace pool is open to all competitors who wish to participate, regardless of skill or overall performance, whereas the cash skins are open only to those who qualify based on overall performance.

Felix, you you always seem to get it right (well, with the possible exception of any disagreement we may have over the 2 meter rule :eek:). You are a credit to the human race. Sometimes I want to give up [on the human race], but then someone like you comes along and renews my faith in our potential :D

Two comments. First the arguably funny one:

Not to mention I can see some music up there too.

When you can see the music can you also taste the colors? That's the way it was for me. When you can taste the color of the music, you know you got what you paid for. :cool:

This is the actual rule on cash and amateur status edited for brevity:

804.08
D. Professional Divisions: In professional divisions, players compete for money.

* * *

E. Amateur Divisions: Amateur players compete for trophies and/or prizes.

* * *

F. Amateur Status: A player relinquishes amateur status by competing in a Professional division of a PDGA sanctioned event and accepting prize money for finishing in that professional division. A player also relinquishes amateur status by accepting prizes in lieu of prize money for finishing in that professional division. Accepting money for winning an ancillary contest such as an ace pool does not cause a player to relinquish his or her amateur status.

It seems to me that a skins match that does not figure into your place in the tournament which is held after the tournament is pretty ancillary. If the strokes in the skins match counted toward your final place in the tournament, or if the payout was being counted toward tournament payout, that would be different.

Various TDs in Michigan have held ancillary contests after the tournament is done where amateurs have been paid cash. In Lansing they do Raffle Doubles where the top four open pros and four players chosen by raffle get in four some best shot skins. This is not a new concept, even if it is new in Asheville, Raleigh or Disneyland.

Those of you who have a problem with an Am-only event competing with a Pro-only event need to just deal with it. It does not make much sense to tell 100s of amateurs all over the southeast, "Oh, you can't play sanctioned disc golf this weekend because someone is running a pro-only event somewhere over the mountains 250 miles away." That 400 mile NT zone of exclusion goes a long way, but it only goes to the pros for a pro-only.

In Lansing they do Raffle Doubles where the top four open pros and four players chosen by raffle get in four some best shot skins.



Getting into a skins game through a raffle and playing for jacksquat in Lansing is a completely different situtuation than getting into a skins game due to your finish in a protected PDGA division down the beautiful streets of Asheville for hundreds of dollars.


Those of you who have a problem with an Am-only event competing with a Pro-only event need to just deal with it.



You don't address the problem that the float rule brings to these situations.

Rhett,

I'm sorry but you are wrong!!!

Last year players as low as 943 cashed at the Crosstown.



Oh, Kirk, you are hilarious. There were 19 players under 955, and there were 25 cash spots. Of those 19 players, exactly ONE of them cashed.

As Rhett said pros under 955 have LITTLE chance of cashing at an NT.

FWIW, the PDGA payout definitions allow a tournament's total payout to be augmented by skins prizes.
Payout percentage is defined as the sum of a) cash/prize awards, b) trophies, c) retail value of player packages, d) cash/prize skin awards, and e) CTP prizes, divided by entry fees. In this context entry fees are defined as actual entry fees charged less PDGA, regional, and/or local player fees. What shall not be included in Payout Percentage are i) ace pools, ii) jumbo toss type games, iii) field events (putting, mini-golf, distance, etc.), iv) meals served gratis to players, and v) doubles (unless sanctioned as a separate event)
(2005 Tour Standards Document (http://www.pdga.com/documents/td/05TourStandards.pdf), page 6)


Using that, one could definitely argue that the skins are part of the sanctioned event whether those involved say otherwise or not.

That said, I have to echo what I believe Rhett said earlier. An NT event that is going to be negatively effected by an Am-only C-tier seems a bit weak, IMO. In the PDGA's defense, I believe those involved with scheduling and approving dates acted in good faith. On the surface, an Am-only C-tier and a Pro-only National Tour event shouldn't conflict at all, and I'm sure that was the guiding reason for the approval of both events.

I say if the TD of the NT is that upset about the scheduling, he needs to petiton the Competition Director and/or the Tour Manager rather than bee-otch about it here. The skins issue looks like it would be good fuel for the fight. Otherwise, run your event as normal and hope for the best. I'm sure this won't be as big a deal as people seem to be making it...it certainly isn't reason to abandon the Pro-in-Am eligibility rules.

--Josh

In Lansing they do Raffle Doubles where the top four open pros and four players chosen by raffle get in four some best shot skins.



Getting into a skins game through a raffle and playing for jacksquat in Lansing is a completely different situtuation than getting into a skins game due to your finish in a protected PDGA division.

Exactly.

In the Raffle Doubles, entry is based on chance, not skill, and it is certainly not contingent on an AM's overall score. The DFL Female Junior (under 10) has as much of a chance of getting as the player who who won Men's ADV. Furthermore, the doubles format means that a player in the skins game could win a skin without having to throw a shot, ([i]e.g.[/], partner aces.

It seems to me that a skins match that does not figure into your place in the tournament which is held after the tournament is pretty ancillary.



but your place in the tournament figures into the skins match, so it seems to me that your above argument only seeks to comply with the letter of the law and disregards the spirit of it.

So in theory, a pro player could participate in the event, recieve no points and decline prizes but use his/her performance as a gate into the $3000 skins.

I say if the TD of the NT is that upset about the scheduling, he needs to petiton the Competition Director and/or the Tour Manager rather than bee-otch about it here. The skins issue looks like it would be good fuel for the fight. Otherwise, run your event as normal and hope for the best. I'm sure this won't be as big a deal as people seem to be making it...it certainly isn't reason to abandon the Pro-in-Am eligibility rules.



The TD of the Xtown is not ****** that the event is going on the same weekend. He is ****** that a few pros(ratings <955 that had signed up are now dropping out to play a C-tier AM only event as ADV golfers. A few of the golfers that post on here said one of the attractions is the ability to play skins.

That brings up the issue about the skins, and Felix already summed it up.

Was the PDGA informed that there would be cash skins before it sanctioned the Ashville tournament as an AM event?



If they weren't informed, coupled with the fact that Kirk didn't know about the 'float rule' before he agreed to let the AMSF become, then I believe that its' sanctioning should be re-applied for/reconsidered.

i will definitely be playing the Crosstown NT because i got in free and i want to test myself against the best of the best.
i dont know why there making mountain disc experience an am only event and then putting a cap on the am ratings, especially when the course is supposedly technical. I would want to go if it was on another weekend, just because of the $$$ skins. But i wouldnt be allowed because i am rated 1 point too high.
in conclusion, if u want a challenge come to raleigh, if u want to get rewarded for being an average am go to asheville

This is a true and accurate statement - I have always wanted to play in Asheville!!! I love the town and the surrounding area.

This is meant to be funny - When are the ratings going to be updated? Mine might have dropped enough for me to play in this one....lol

jack, you could play even with your rating, you are still an am.
the skins is a fun way to gain publicity for the sport. wild wings cafe is the sole sponsor of the skins, and they chose to put up that much money. if the skins were for 20$ a hole, no one would be complaining. if the "float" rule wasn't around, there also wouldn't be as much complaining.
and to all the pros dropping out of the crosstown, thinking they can come up here to asheville, and walk away with easy money, i think that you are sadly mistaken. richmond hill is a great course, with a good core of local players, most of them ams. it wouldn't be so easy...

haha...

Kirk...you can play as "Will Joyner." He definately has a rating below 955.

When are the ratings going to be updated?


HA HA HA! That would add more excitement to this mess. While everyone else in America wants to get better and see their player ratings go up, Pros in NC would want their PR to go down. It's a beautiful system. Reward mediocrity, encourage poor play! (tic)

Seriously, though... I'm glad to see that the TD for the NT has a good sense of humor about this.

Hey, Chuck! If I grease your palm enough, will you put a 'correction factor' into the PR that would lower everyone's PR about 20 point? Just a proposition.

i will definitely be playing the Crosstown NT because i got in free



I'm sure a lot of AMs would step up to the plate and see how they fare against the big boys if their entry fee was free.


i dont know why there making mountain disc experience an am only event and then putting a cap on the am ratings,



They're making it AM only because that's the only way it could get sanctioned by the PDGA with a NT event happening in the state on the same weekend. It does suck that they're both the same weekend, but these things get planned out way in advance and in Ashevlle's case they're coordinating with another event in the city..... so sometimes conflicts do occur.


in conclusion, if u want a challenge come to raleigh, if u want to get rewarded for being an average am go to asheville



IMO, both events look like a challenge..... particularly for AMs. Just because an AM decides to play in another event doesn't make them any less of a player than one who plays in the larger event. There are a lot of factors that play into ones decision on which (if any) to play..... like cost to play, proximity to where you live, etc. Either way it looks like there will be a lot of people playing disc golf in NC that weekend. Here's to EVERYBODY having a great time!!!!

I think the major issue is the fact that the "float rule" is taking PROs that have a rating lower than 955 from a NT event.

If this same thing happened last year, there would be no complaints since the "float rule" would not be allowing some players already signed up for the NT event to back out of this event now that anohter event in the same state is offering the opportunity to win cash if he/she is good enough to be on the top of the leaderboard at the end of each day.

I think the major issue is the fact that the "float rule" is taking PROs that have a rating lower than 955 from a NT event.

It's also taking away top-rated AMs (Robbie Dunn, to name one) from the event.


If this same thing happened last year, there would be no complaints since the "float rule" would not be allowing some players already signed up for the NT event to back out of this event now that anohter event in the same state is offering the opportunity to win cash if he/she is good enough to be on the top of the leaderboard at the end of each day.

Precisely.

The 2005 Tour Standards grants NTs an exclusive 400 mi. radius from all lower tier events where Pro divisions would confilct. Prior to the advent of the "float rule," lower-rated pros within that 400 mi. radius who wanted to compete in a sanctioned tournament on the NT weekend had to choose between playing in the NT or travelling well out of the area to compete.

Although technically, Am-division only events do not conflict with the Pro- division only NTs, the "float rule" creates a de facto conflict between sanctioned events within the 400 mi radius in which ADV competition is offered and the NT event, because it offers lower-rated Pros (as well as top-rated AMS who otherwise might compete in the NT) an alternative venue for sanctioned competition. In light of that, the outstanding question, IMO, is whether or not the "powers that be" were aware of the "float rule" and recognized that it undercuts the exclusive 400 mi radius granted to NTs when considering whether or not to sanction the Ashville event or whether they simply assumed that "AM-only" events could not impact attendance at a Pro event. In other words, were the person(s) responsible for granting sanctioning aware that lower-rated pros would be permitted to compete in an "AM-only" event, and that that would potentially draw lower-rated pros away from the NT?

Can't believe the attention this thread is getting..... yet no posts from Schweb, MTL, CuTT, Yahn.....or TT.



Nothing To posT
I'm Playing X-town..

What if a TTrim TTowers West was built?

Then I would have to think abouT iT.

In defense of everyone involved, some of us didn't know about the "float" rule when the sanctioning issue came up.

And, I am fairly certain those that did know didn't consider the possible conflict that has come up.

I really do wish this one was on a different weekend and was not an Am only event. Mostly because I want to play in Asheville.

When this is done could someone who knows the player base count up the number of pros who played the am-only event? I suspect that this is a big tempest in a small teapot.

And can someone explain how it is that we've used the words "pro" and "am" a gazillion times on this thread without getting a lecture from Nick Kight about how none of those ams are really ams and almost none of those pros are really pros? :D

When this is done could someone who knows the player base count up the number of pros who played the am-only event? I suspect that this is a big tempest in a small teapot.

And can someone explain how it is that we've used the words "pro" and "am" a gazillion times on this thread without getting a lecture from Nick Kight about how none of those ams are really ams and almost none of those pros are really pros? :D



I was about to ask the same thing(the Nick Kight reference)

SERIOUSY THOUGH??????

When this is done could someone who knows the player base count up the number of pros who played the am-only event? I suspect that this is a big tempest in a small teapot.

Actually, the issue isn't just the pros who play the am-only event, it's also the higher-rated ADVs who will now be playing the event instead of the X-town as well. I ran into two Masters out at Kentwood this afternoon who had planned to the X-town but will be playing the Ashville event instead (No, Robbie Dunn wasn't one of them), and have spoken with an ADV who was planning to "donate" to the X-town who will be going to Ashville instead.

When the TD for the Crosstown says he wishes he could play in Asheville I think that says alot about this situation.

in conclusion, if u want a challenge come to raleigh, if u want to get rewarded for being an average am go to asheville

i don't think any "average am" will be rewarded in the sense that you are insinuating.

I'll take time to go out and look at a course or two this weekend with that in mind. I've not had a weekend off from DG for a while. Are you familiar with any courses in DFW ?

Can't believe the attention this thread is getting..... yet no posts from Schweb, MTL, CuTT, Yahn.....or TT.



Nothing To posT
I'm Playing X-town..




I agree.....my thoughts.....

I wouldnt care if Asheville was having an am only tournament the weekend of a NT IF.....

1. There was no skins
2. There was no float rule

That's all I really have to say.....wel that and.....it is a great tournament played on a terrible course

Shut up, you whiney pro... :p

actually, I'm not a whiney pro...

I'm a whiney am who hasn't cashed yet :D

Give yourself some credit, MTL....you have cashed, you just declined. ;) Hey, at least we in NC have a choice between two events on great courses. It shows that NC disc golf is always premier.
Peace

Give yourself some credit, MTL....you have cashed, you just declined. ;) Hey, at least we in NC have a choice between two events on great courses. It shows that NC disc golf is always premier.
Peace



Premier disc golf, terrible scheduling.

NC tournaments:
Weekend of April 16 = 0
Weekend of April 23 = 0
Weekend of April 30 = 2 :mad:

great point whorley.....

I thought the reasons for the scheduling were covered pretty well at the beginning of this thread.

The real problem here is $3000 in cash skins being paid out on the same weeked as an NT in the same state.

There's no problem at all! It got the "rubber stamp" approval of the competition director. /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

And you are saying that the Competition director should have denied the Am event or the cash skins ?

I would have to be in favor of limiting the skins. $3K in cash is quite an incentive to miss the NT if you are rated low enough to do it.

And you are saying that the Competition director should have denied the Am event or the cash skins ?

I would have to be in favor of limiting the skins. $3K in cash is quite an incentive to miss the NT if you are rated low enough to do it.



I think he's saying, and I agree, that there is no PDGA Am event in Asheville. Since the finish of the players will determine the eligibility of the skins, the players are playing for cash.

Of course, because they are "unofficial" and "not part of the PDGA event," the CD has decided to do nothing.

Note to PDGA, either drop the Pro/Am designations altogether (and let EVERYONE play for cash within rating divisions) or disallow the sanctioning. Are y'all that desperate for cash? /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The Raleigh guys must be having fun at the TTowers.



And Ju know this

I'm saying that CD shouldn't allow the cash skins.

I also agree with Felix that the float rule also breaks the NT sanctioning agreement (de facto) by letting pros play within 400 miles of an NT.

(also posted this on the Asheville tourney thread, but b/c of Discpimps thread about do you hate him or whatever, I got passed in post count....so I knew the posts :grin")

I think that this is a great example of "getting by on a techincality" so to speak.

PDGA Rule : No pro events within 400 miles of a NT
Technicality: this is am only, but b/c of the float rule, it is acceptable to have pros in the same state playing a different tournament.
Judegement: Bullchit

PDGA Rule: No am can recieve a cash prize or merchendise in lue of cash due to performance in a PDGA event.
Technicality : The skins are not a part of the PDGA event and will not be counted in winnings
Judgement : Bullchit

I think that the PDGA needs to look at this tournament and see what happened with it and restructure some rules to prevent things like this happening again

I think all that needs to change is that the NT committee needs to coordinate with the state coordinators. This would not be an issue if the NT committee had said, "Is there anything going on that weekend that has $3,000 in cash sponsorship provided that it happens that weekend? For the Asheville TD the only issue was whether he was going to sanction it as Am-only or go unsanctioned as a Pro-Am and then really compete with the NT for players. The Asheville TD was locked into this date by the sponsor. The NT could have gone on any date.

I think the crux of the issue in this matter is the question of Ams being able to accept cash in "non-PDGA" events. Put another way, the only cash that matters vis a vis Pro status is cash taken in a PDGA event.

This sort of non-PDGA event skins money going to Ams muddies the distinction between player categories, and is clearly an easy means to avoid the "rules" by playing on the weaknesses of the competitve structure.

The same issue was avoided long ago by the Ball golfers. To retain "amateur" status, a player must remain within prize guidelines at any and all events. Taking prizes beyond certain limits, regardless of the status of the event, would end a golfers Am status.

As I see it, unless the PDGA gets draconian with regard to Ams accepting cash money, the problem will not go away. And this isn't an easy step to take.

I think all that needs to change is that the NT committee needs to coordinate with the state coordinators. This would not be an issue if the NT committee had said, "Is there anything going on that weekend that has $3,000 in cash sponsorship provided that it happens that weekend? For the Asheville TD the only issue was whether he was going to sanction it as Am-only or go unsanctioned as a Pro-Am and then really compete with the NT for players. The Asheville TD was locked into this date by the sponsor. The NT could have gone on any date.

Except that the 2005 NT schedule was set back in Oct 2004, well before Ashville applied for sanctioning, and that Kirk was asked to waive the exclusive 400 mi radius policy WITHOUT BEING TOLD ABOUT THE FLOAT RULE. (Go back and read his post on page 1 of the thread.) So by the time the question of sanctioning the tournament came up, the Crosstown could NOT have gone on "any date" without requiring substantial revisions to both the NT and the non-NT schedules.

Furthermore, contrary to Bruce's opiniion that this wouldn't be an issue if there were better coordination between the NT Committee and state coordinators, this wouldn't be an issue if the PDGA actually enforced its own policies.

The fact that the PDGA requested a waiver of the exclusive 400 mi radius policy shows that they were well aware that sanctioning the Ashville tournament violated the spirit of the "no competition" policy and therefore ought not to have been sanctioned, because the "exclusive" policy grants protection from lower tier events "where Pro divisions would conflict." If the PDGA truly believed that the Ashville tournament were an AM event and that it didn't violate the spirit of the exclusivity policy, there would have been no reason to request the waiver.

Is it not obvious that the $3000 unsanctioned skins is the primary issue here? It's apparent from over 3 months of events that pros under 955 are barely tapping their opportunities to enter am divisions. However, when playing "am" is the conduit to qualify for $3000 skins, the picture changes dramatically.

You need to think about the alternative. If the PDGA does not sanction it as an Am-only, the event goes forward as an unsanctioned pro-am. How many pros rated 985-955 will go donate at the NT when there is $3000 added cash at the unsanctioned tournament? Sanctioning it as an Am-only works better for the NT.

If a lot of deep donor pros bail on the NT it will be interesting to see if any amateur gets a taste of the $3000 skins money!

I am probably missing something, I thought the 955-985 pro's options were NT or nothing? Haven't they had improved their skills to the point that they are ineligible for the "am" tourney. I haven't read about this whole issue, but if the PDGA is sanctioning an "am" event where the rewards are clearly cash, then they should be embarassed.

I am probably missing something, I thought the 955-985 pro's options were NT or nothing?



Bruce is saying that the 955-985 pros are "forced" to go to the NT because the Am event IS sanctioned, but might play the Am event if it wasn't sanctioned.

I thought there was no upper limit for ams.

Anyways, in my mind, there is no viable rationale that the PDGA could claim to sanction this tourney. It is crazy really. Commonsense says they should oppose it and/or figure out ways to undercut it because it sets a precendent that undercuts the PDGA's competitive system. But hey, I'm not surprised.

It might have undercut a competitive system we had five or six years ago. The system has changed. Then divisions were self-selected, arbitrary and detrmined by local values. Now, more and more, the divisions are determined by ratings and the local values are giving way to the PDGA format.

We used to use cash vs prizes to sort the best from the rest. Then it would have undercut the system to allow this sort of thing. Now that we use ratings to sort divisions, I don't think the system is threatenned by the occasional after-the-tournament side game where ams or donor pros might win cash.

Meanwhile, this is not something that the PDGA would need to change the rules to put an end to if the PDGA thought it was a bad thing. It is an isolated case arising due to the NT committee scheduling their tournament on the Festival weekend. If they had put the NT on any other weekend, that $3000 added would be going to pros.

When the apparent draw of the AM-only* event is the $3000 "after event" skins, there is a problem.

*As the PDGA defines it.

Yes, if this is an isolated event, then I suppose it is much ado bout nothing much. However, not surprisingly, I seriously question your assertion that paying ams in cash doesn't conflict with the PDGA competitive system. It violates the basic rule that ams do not play for money.

I assume (or hope at least) that we are a responsible organization that has defined either "ams" or has effectively defined the prizes afforded to non-pro divisions. I assume such language is somewhere in the PDGA laws, rules, or sanctioning agreements. Otherwise, our already blurry am/pro distinction has vansihed.

More importantly, someday, it would be real nice if the PDGA did some soul-searching and redefine Section 3 of the Purpose Section of the PDGA Constitution. It states that one of the PDGA's purposes is:


To establish and maintain high standards of excellence in promoting and managing competitive disc golf events and annual championship tournaments that highlight the sport of disc golf.



Almost every time I hear the PDGA talk about its competitive structure, I get the distinct impression that that the desire of the majority of the members is far more important than the integrity of the sport. I suspect most board members would read this and say "duh, of course it is." There lies the problem. Just like MLB, NFL, and NBA, if the league only follows the desires of players association, the sport regresses. At some point, the PDGA might take a close look at the term "managing competitive disc golf" and embrace competitive values: namely that people should be rewarded based on their performance, not on their relative position within the distribution curve.

I am not here to discuss any issues that brought us to this point until after the Urban Skins in Asheville. I am here to discuss where we are now, considering the incredible dialogue that has taken place over the last few weeks.

I believe the most important topic of discussion needs to include where the upper level pros get their payout from. Yes, from the donor pros. Herein lies the challenge. As long as pro 916-975(or so) is obliged to compete with pro 1000+ we cannot resolve. There must be a venue for the low/mid level pros to compete and cash at, while at the same time creating an environment for the upper level pros to flourish and make a living at. Sapping the life from the lower ranks is not the answer.

Not to use ball golf as the gold standard, but to consider it as a benchmarking tool, is ball golf local pro Bart ever forced to compete with Tiger Woods? Or, can Bart enter tournaments established for his skill level? Bart's event can be handled by entry fees and moderate sponsorships. What happens to Tiger's purse? I think where this may be going is an issue of high profile marketing and sponsorship to allow for the upper level pro to succeed. Is that too much to ask from disc golf, knowing we are truly in our infancy? I would like to here from you...the players, the administrators, those of you who obviously care so much for this great sport. Thank you,

james.

Why does someone who is not "the best of the best" somehow "deserve" to play for cash and be protected from the truly Best of the Best?

Why does someone who is not "the best of the best" somehow "deserve" to play for cash and be protected from the truly Best of the Best?

Rhett, suppose some sponsor offered you $3000 cash for the EIEIO the year that they moved the Las Vegas A-tier to the EIEIO weekend and the sponsor was only offering the money if you run the event on that weekend.

Are you turning your nose up at the money? Or are you telling the Las Vegas guys, "The tournament is going. You want it unsanctioned pro-am or sanctioned am-only?"

Why does someone who is not "the best of the best" somehow "deserve" to play for cash and be protected from the truly Best of the Best?




My comment was directed at the "need" for a minor league pro cash payout tour being called for by the poster before me. We ain't there. That works in ball golf because there is real money invloved, and you are an [*****] if you can make it on the PGA Tour and you choose to play the Nike Tour.


Rhett, suppose some sponsor offered you $3000 cash for the EIEIO the year that they moved the Las Vegas A-tier to the EIEIO weekend and the sponsor was only offering the money if you run the event on that weekend.

Are you turning your nose up at the money? Or are you telling the Las Vegas guys, "The tournament is going. You want it unsanctioned pro-am or sanctioned am-only?"


I would accept the money and divvy it up between all my players, adding $33.33 per head ($3000/90) to each division's payout. Pros would receive cash and ams would receive shop credit.

If the sponsor was putting some conditions on the donation, then I would have to consider the conditions before accepting the money. If the sponsor was requiring that I pay cash to ams, I would decline the offer. If the sponsor required that all the cash be paid in cash, then I guess my 20-or-so pro contingent would be extremely happy as it would all go into their payout, and I would probably spread it to pay everyone in every pro division since I draw so few pros anyway.

I'm sure some of you doubt that I would really do that, but believe me. I would.

This conflicting tourney scenario probably wouldn't happen, though, as I pick my dates after the NT and A-tier dates are established. And I'm not going to screw the schedule making process for $3000.

Rhett, thanks for being a class act.

Why can't the amateurs play for $3000 in prizes? That's the way every other PDGA tournament would do it.

To call the Urban Skins a "separate event" from the PDGA tournament is ludicrous. Ams are playing for $3000 DOLLARS in skins at a PDGA tournament, no matter how you spin it.

Wouldn't everyone still be happy if they were playing for $3000 in prizes?

I applaud the work of the TD and everyone involved in making this one of the tournaments and exciting format. I have said this on numerous occasions. I hope this tournament continues to gets bigger and bigger.

This tournament sets a precedent in PDGA AM tournaments. This means any AM tournament henceforth can give cash skins in my view. This is wrong. Ams should play for prizes just like every other PDGA tournament.

AMs playing for cash comprimises the integrity of the PDGA divisional structure. Will the PDGA not do anything? If AMs play for cash next weekend in Asheville, then they should be playing for cash every weekend.

Your preachin' to the choir here Vince. You do realize you have opened yourself up to being heckeled at the 2006 Asheville event.

I miss pro-2. :D

Put it to rest. Your mouth as woke the Pope. Black smoke , white smoke. End of thread.

Thanks Jeff you have a PM

Ams can win cash?... I can stay am forever!!!