or more definitively; AM1 playing AM2, advanced playing intermediate, or am-bagging...

as far as i can understand the current rules regarding the division ratings mandates that only players with ratings below 915 are eligible to play intermediate (mens). is there any punishment, penalty, etc. for players (PDGA members) that have played in PDGA events in a division where their rating (at the time) would/should make them ineligible?

No penalty has formally been published. However, the new Competition Committee will be addressing that issue. In the few instances where this has been discovered, the players have not received their points for the event or they will be taken away if/when discovered.

thats REAL bagging...

any action to be taken in regards to winnings?

any action to be taken in regards to winnings?



Better yet, how about suspensions?

any action to be taken in regards to winnings?



Better yet, how about suspensions?


The problem is that many Intermediates who cross the 915 barrier have no idea that it exists. If TDs don't check the ratings then it is a recipe for disaster in this regard.

You can't have a standard punishment for this offense. A 918 rated guy who just crossed over in the last update is different than a 940 rated guy doing it.

In a recent case, the two players involved had ratings under 925 which was the original rating break between Advanced and Intermediate. It doesn't excuse the infraction but may explain it.

The real problem is that most TDs do not check the ratings of the competitors for this.

What are you susposed to do in my case when you are the guy who should have won, especialy when the pay out was 100 swing beween spots? That 1st place trophy disc sure would have been nice for the hard work i put in to come back!

The real problem is that most TDs do not check the ratings of the competitors for this.



Cross cannyon challenge is a perfect example of this
horrible TD he should not be allowed to run pdga tournys any more! :mad:

whoa.............

The real problem is that most TDs do not check the ratings of the competitors for this.



Cross cannyon challenge is a perfect example of this
horrible TD he should not be allowed to run pdga tournys any more! :mad:



for more reasons than just that!

any action to be taken in regards to winnings?



Better yet, how about suspensions?


The problem is that many Intermediates who cross the 915 barrier have no idea that it exists. If TDs don't check the ratings then it is a recipe for disaster in this regard.

You can't have a standard punishment for this offense. A 918 rated guy who just crossed over in the last update is different than a 940 rated guy doing it.

It happens innocently a lot.

I had a 940 rated guy and his 925 rated buddy try to sneak into intermediate at a tournament I ran last year. They told the ratings check girl that they weren't members and did not have ratings, which was only half true but they might have thought it was true. So when I apologetically told the 940 guy he would have to come back tomorrow because today was only intermediates, recs and juniors, he said belligerantly that there was nothing I could do about it because they weren't members. And I said, well I can rip up your leaderboard cards, offer your money back and ask you NOT to come back tomorrow.

I believe the PDGA member list provided to TDs before an event also includes non-renewed members with ratings. Several areas are tracking local ratings of non-members. We have local ratings in MN, and the Mid-Atlantic Disc Club and Houston has them that I know of.

any action to be taken in regards to winnings?



Better yet, how about suspensions?


The problem is that many Intermediates who cross the 915 barrier have no idea that it exists. If TDs don't check the ratings then it is a recipe for disaster in this regard.

You can't have a standard punishment for this offense. A 918 rated guy who just crossed over in the last update is different than a 940 rated guy doing it.

It happens innocently a lot.

I had a 940 rated guy and his 925 rated buddy try to sneak into intermediate at a tournament I ran last year. They told the ratings check girl that they weren't members and did not have ratings, which was only half true but they might have thought it was true. So when I apologetically told the 940 guy he would have to come back tomorrow because today was only intermediates, recs and juniors, he said belligerantly that there was nothing I could do about it because they weren't members. And I said, well I can rip up your leaderboard cards, offer your money back and ask you NOT to come back tomorrow.



"Make my day. Go ahead and make my day." Dirty Bruce. :eek: :D

What are you susposed to do in my case when you are the guy who should have won, especialy when the pay out was 100 swing beween spots? That 1st place trophy disc sure would have been nice for the hard work i put in to come back!


BruceUK [or Neil]: This is exactly what I was talking about last night when I was talking about half the players, half the time, myself included.

0TimeChamp: The one guy had crossed the line with the last previous rating update. He might not have known. The other guy crossed the line two or three updates back. That is troubling.

Where the issue of mens rea is disputed or not clear, a fair penalty would be to require the player to pay back to the TD the retail value of what he got and the TD should have to make it up double in merch to the players who got bumped down slots.

Although our rules require TDs to check ratings, the players should also be responsible also. They are the ones with an incentive to play in the wrong division. Even if you don't have a computer you probably do have a public library or computer store where ou can get on a computer for a few minutes. There is little excuse.

Not to re hash. But we always talk about the 915 area. What about the 955 area? If a peron is over that rating are they supposed to go open or can they still play ams. Is there anything that can forse a player to play open (like their rating).

The 955 level is a one way restriction. Pros below 955 can play am. Ams can be any rating over or under 955 and still play Advanced.

What are you susposed to do in my case when you are the guy who should have won, especialy when the pay out was 100 swing beween spots? That 1st place trophy disc sure would have been nice for the hard work i put in to come back!



BruceUK [or Neil]: This is exactly what I was talking about last night when I was talking about half the players, half the time, myself included.

0TimeChamp: The one guy had crossed the line with the last previous rating update. He might not have known. The other guy crossed the line two or three updates back. That is troubling.

Where the issue of mens rea is disputed or not clear, a fair penalty would be to require the player to pay back to the TD the retail value of what he got and the TD should have to make it up double in merch to the players who got bumped down slots.

Although our rules require TDs to check ratings, the players should also be responsible also. They are the ones with an incentive to play in the wrong division. Even if you don't have a computer you probably do have a public library or computer store where ou can get on a computer for a few minutes. There is little excuse.



In this case the TD paid out with a walmart special boom box. He said it retailed for 200 dollars. I got a Jerry Rigged "Joe G" Special pool behinde cart! It was a 40 dollar piece o @#*%. Thankfully for me I have a friend who was stocked on the thing and gave me his vouchers to the Fly Mart. So in my case Is this guy susposed to hand over half the Boom Box? no way, there should be some kind of warning issued from the PDGA written to this guy. I dont even care about the trophy or the money difference. I would just like the TD or this guy to say sorry you won the event. But who listens to an Am any way

The PDGA Board is mostly Ams. The staff has dealt with the people and the issue as well as possible considering they had no written policy for dealing with it. As I recall, Cross Canyon was a 2-day event and players certainly have the right to bring up any questionable ratings issues with the TD so it can be dealt with at the event. A simple "what's your rating" might have changed things or even asking the TD if ratings were checked or pointing out a questionable rating.

It's certainly not the responsibility of other players to make sure players are registered in the right divisions, but they are responsible for calling rule infractions in their groups. I have seen other players inform TDs that a another group played the wrong tee or that a player had accepted cash and was ineligible for playing in an Am division back when that was not allowed. I recently was analyzing individual scores on holes and it turns out a card for an event last year was misadded. The player won the division by one throw. With the correction he would have finished second. The rules say that once the event is declared over and payouts made, it's done. No changes. 804.03F(1)

well that solves that issue! Thanks :)

No one is happy with the resolution and the problem shouldn't have happened, but it did. Players bringing this incident to light is triggering permanent action on the issue. So in that regard, it's a positive step for those who may be impacted down the road.

And PROs should not play AMs...

Corrupt system begets corrupt situation. Why is anyone surprised at this?

Solution: Set a time limit, such as the end of this year for a player to declare that they are intending to be an Amateur in 2006. Do not restrict, for this ONE TIME, based on past winnings or years as pro (whatever that has meant).

Then, once we have this hard line between Amateur and Professional, a professional should never again be permitted to play in the Amateur Class unless they jump through a million hoops decided upon by the PDGA. ANd any Amateur playing in a pro division must declare prior to the event that they will turn down any winnings if they want to retain their status as an am.

I'd likely go back to Amateur in such a situation. Particularly if the gambling element were removed from it.

And PROs should not play AMs...
Solution: Set a time limit, such as the end of this year for a player to declare that they are intending to be an Amateur in 2006. Do not restrict, for this ONE TIME, based on past winnings or years as pro (whatever that has meant).

Then, once we have this hard line between Amateur and Professional, a professional should never again be permitted to play in the Amateur Class unless they jump through a million hoops decided upon by the PDGA. ANd any Amateur playing in a pro division must declare prior to the event that they will turn down any winnings if they want to retain their status as an am.

I'd likely go back to Amateur in such a situation. Particularly if the gambling element were removed from it.



While the "pro playing am" ruling has good intentions for allowing semi retired players (work, kids, health) to come back and compete again, there are a small handful of corrupt players which will abuse this system.

I agree that some hard cap should be set on MA1. Because while it is bad to force someone to move up who should not be moving up, just because you win an event does not make you a bagger, but if your rating is consistently higher then your competitors it is time to be moving up to the next level.

The one thing that I find useful in the administration of the Southern Nationals tournament series, is that there is a time limit to where Pros can move back down to Am. In the SN it is 6 months without accepting cash. Now while this is too short of a time in my opinion it is a good idea never the less.

Perhaps the PDGA could inact a rule, that if a pro has not won any cash in the prior year, they can petition the PDGA for reclassification to amateur status again only if their rating was below the advanced hard cap once their membership was up for renewal at the end of the year.

I feel that this, combined with a hard cap on Advanced would help keep people from abusing the system too long. If someone dogs Pro just to compete in Advanced, then their player rating will eventually go back up past the hard cap and have to move back again to Pro.

So I have a question here . . . .
Lets say you have this 1000+ rated pro who has cashed in open before. He decides that he wants to play an all "lefty" round in a pdga tournament and he is about an 850 rated left handed player. Would it be alright if he paid a $5 temp pdga member fee and played under a different name in the advance division? Technically, since he's about an 850 player he wouldn't be bagging. It shouldn't matter how he plays right handed since that doesn't come into play, correct? Or would a lot of people get mad with this decision? Either way he will be donating his money to the tournament since he obviously won't cash in any division. His roommate is also playing advanced and another advanced player will be playing left handed also, that is the only reason he wants to play advanced. Just wondering what people think about this situation before "he" makes his decision this weekend.

All good points.

However... :) ...I think that the PDGA has declared that if you have a rating of less than 955, then you are not shooting pro-caliber golf and you are allowed to play in the am ranks.

Also, IMHO, once you have a hard cap where you have to play Open if your rating is certain level, then it should be a two-way street whereby once your rating drops below that level you can go back to Advanced. The hard part is to let go of the "pro" and "am" idea, and just be "disc golfers" with a certain rating.

Either or, by strict ratings or by a combo ratings/application process.

Chris, I tried one of those "he/myfriend" questions on the Southern Nationals Boards.

Everyone knows its you. I would ask the TD to ask the other players in advanced if it would be ok. Personally I have no problem playing against a great right handed player if they stick to lefty. Good luck with that one.

Well I sprained my wrist this week and can't even hold a disc let alone throw one. So I had to withdraw from the tournament this weekend, however I had someone offer to sponsor my entry fee if I would come to the tournament anyways and play left handed against them. I thought it would be pretty fun and want to try it. However, he's playing advanced, also, another player is playing lefty and is also playing advanced. I figured since I'm like an 850 rated lefty player, they're shouldn't be too much of a problem giving a different name and playing advanced too. If for some reason I shoot the best rounds of my life and cash, I can always donate my prizes to the next player down.

You should hit up the TD with that story and declare up front that you will be declining the first place prizes (it's good to talk smack). As a player or TD I would have no problem at all with it, considering the circumstances.

I know at least one person who has two PDGA memberships, one under a different name, specifically so he has the option to play opposite handed and have a separate rating, which is currently about 100 points lower (it's not me).

This just happened here in NorCal at the Vintage Cup. Joe Benesch PDGA# 22455 has a player rating of 915
played in Int. He feel through the loop due to the fact that
he isnt a current member he got 3rd place.

This just happened here in NorCal at the Vintage Cup. Joe Benesch PDGA# 22455 has a player rating of 915
played in Int. He feel through the loop due to the fact that
he isnt a current member he got 3rd place.



He did it again this weekend he played Int at the Motherlode I told the TD but he said he never got the update player ratings from the PDGA.

Does this seriously make ANY DIFFERENCE. SO FREAKIN WHAT!!!!!!!!! You got 1 guy who wants to bag into AM2. Its not like they only pay 1 spot at our tournaments. Who cares if people want to sandbagg. I sure as heck dont because it really doesnt affect me. If a player is a sandbagger that means they have no confidence in their own game and they NEED to play against lesser players to win. Oh well who cares. If im at a tournamet with one of these guys IM fighting for second. He paid his entry fee and has every right to win because he stayed AM or stayed in AM2. This may affect people who are going to be in that division for their entire life but it doesnt affect me and really shouldnt affect them either unless the ENTIRE cash is taken by sandbaggers.

If those people want to stay down and not get any better then let them. All the real good players are just going to pass them on the way to bigger and better things like the Pro Open division where there ARE NO SANDBAGGERS and they play for MONEY!!!!!!!!!!

Have fun sandbaggers. Im looking forward to playing against the best in the world in a few years. Have fun beating up on the lowly ams when im gone :D

Plus i dont consider you a sandbagger untill you have won over 10 tournaments in 1 division anyway :D

Are you really this stupid?
I care i got ripped off at a tournament because of this. its easy to say who cares when it dosent happen to you! By the way has anyone noticed that the same thing happened last year @ the same tourny same division :confused:

The Cross Canyon Challenge

What tournment are you talking about. IF you are talking about the Motherlode those players that have a player rating over 915 didnt have it at the time of the tournment.

Are you really this stupid?
I care i got ripped off at a tournament because of this. its easy to say who cares when it dosent happen to you! By the way has anyone noticed that the same thing happened last year @ the same tourny same division




Are YOU really that stupid. There is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE between a 914 and a 915 rated player so do you get this mad when a 914 rated player whoops the crap out of you. No I DONT THINK YOU DO and you certainly dont claim that you got ripped off. The only time ratings make a lick of difference is if someone is 10 points or more above someone else. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 points means NOTHING!!!!!! They are not even a stroke a round better then you so it really makes no difference whether they are 915 or 919 the cut off should be at a whole number in the first place. Of course it doesnt happen to me I moved up to Advanced after 4 tournys in AM 2 and now I have to deal with people who never move up NO MATTER WHAT THEY ARE RATED and NOW I have to deal with people who DID move up but because of this new rule can now MOVE DOWN and play with me. If someone wanted to stay am untill they were 1000 rated they could and they would be playing in MY division so dont say i dont have to deal with it. Last year I played worlds with a 990 rated player and like 5 other guys that were over 965 so I dont want to hear a word about it. If you still cashed you have NO RIGHT to complain that you got ripped off all you can complain about is the TD NOT FOLLOWING THE RULES and here isnt the place. Why dont you write an email to the commision and request that his TD status be revoked because of this indescression (sp?)

Actualy I did write a letter to the commissioner, and my player rating was an 887 during this tourny. I drove all the way to florida to play in my first out of state tourny. I worked realy hard @ playing smart and better than i normaly play. Only to get rewarded with second, because some one with a 30 point better player rating than mine WAS BAGGING! FYI i have moved up. I have moved on, but i will not be silent about this because it will continue to happen if some one isnt loud about it!

What tournment are you talking about. IF you are talking about the Motherlode those players that have a player rating over 915 didnt have it at the time of the tournment.



The Cross Cannyon Challenge

this year and last

[QUOTE]
Are you really this stupid?
I care i got ripped off at a tournament because of this. its easy to say who cares when it dosent happen to you! By the way has anyone noticed that the same thing happened last year @ the same tourny same division




The only time ratings make a lick of difference is if someone is 10 points or more above someone else. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 points means NOTHING!!!!!!


Ok how about 32 points :mad:is that enough to complain about?

dont believe me ? Go back to the Cross Cannyon Challenge Am leg look @ the int group

You Tell ME :confused:

A 915 player playing in INT is 1 point from being in the proper division. They should not be allowed to play, but a 914 player should be playing there. They would not be bagging, but playing where the PDGA says they should play.

A 915 player playing in INT is 1 point from being in the proper division. They should not be allowed to play, but a 914 player should be playing there. They would not be bagging, but playing where the PDGA says they should play.



Thats Right!

Are you really this stupid?
I care i got ripped off at a tournament because of this. its easy to say who cares when it dosent happen to you! By the way has anyone noticed that the same thing happened last year @ the same tourny same division :confused:



Jason,

Now you see the kind of thinking that let's folks get away with not following rules of play.

"I'm not competing against him so what does it matter?"

or

"Where's the fun in calling rules? It's just a buzz kill!"

The challenge is as clear as it gets. We can't have it both ways, at least not at the same event. Either care and be a part of taking disc golf to the next level or find somewhere else to smoke your pot.

Are you really this stupid?
I care i got ripped off at a tournament because of this. its easy to say who cares when it dosent happen to you! By the way has anyone noticed that the same thing happened last year @ the same tourny same division :confused:



Jason,

Now you see the kind of thinking that let's folks get away with not following rules of play.

"I'm not competing against him so what does it matter?"

or

"Where's the fun in calling rules? It's just a buzz kill!"

The challenge is as clear as it gets. We can't have it both ways, at least not at the same event. Either care and be a part of taking disc golf to the next level or find somewhere else to smoke your pot.





lets take it to the next level!