Ever play a hole that is fairly easy to par for a decent player, but to go for a birdie entails a high risk shot that if missed will leave you with a likely bogie? I'm trying to imagine how such a shot could be constructed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

I did the EXACT THING you are talking about this weekend on hole # 4 @ George Wilson Park in Mishiwaka IN.

Hole four is a downhill tight hard right turn. Lots of close together trees on the right side prolly 80% of the way to the basket. Thin line of trees on the left of the fairway and it opens up to the left of that but is hard to get a good shot at the basket if you go outside the fairway to the left. The tee is about 40 or so feet above the basket and the hole is maybe 300-325ft long downhill. The trees on the right side of the fairway stretch almost the entire length of the course so you cant go around them but you have throw a 50 ft high spike hyzer OVER them and come in the fairly open back door of the hole. If you make it over but come up short of the basket you can still three but its a HIGH HIGH spike.

First round i hit it perfect and made a 15 footer for my deuce. Second round same hole. Im 6 under par after playing 10-4 with a few temp holes in there. I try the spike again and dont get it high enough. End up taking a 6. Should have been a 5 but i missed a easy 10 footer cuz i was sooo rattled.

You can also set up a hole so there is a HUGE hyzer over some water or the safe hyzer layup for an easy three.

Wide open fairway to a landing zone 100'+ from the basket. Small window for the "cheater route" to the basket where missing the window leaves you in deep schuule.

A 75�-90� turn might be involved. There was a hole in Miami at Worlds '02 like this. Easy three if you threw out to the opening. Chance of 2 or 4+ if you tried to tomahawk through the little gap straight at the basket that you couldn't see through a thick and high wall of foliage.

Have you ever heard of the USDGC. There aer a few holes there that fit just that description.

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm), where, on #15, you throw to an elevated basket sitting on an embankment with a slimy pond 12' behind it, with the ground behind the basket sloping toward the pond, and on #17, you throw through a narrow gap�from 474' or 351', depending on which tee you're playing from�over a 250' pond to a basket set 20' from the water's edge with the green sloping toward the pond and knock-down trees guarding the basket?

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm), where, on #15, you throw to an elevated basket sitting on an embankment with a slimy pond 12' behind it, with the ground behind the basket sloping toward the pond, and on #17, you throw through a narrow gap�from 474' or 351', depending on which tee you're playing from�over a 250' pond to a basket set 20' from the water's edge with the green sloping toward the pond and knock-down trees guarding the basket?



where is thise course, i so must road trip and play it!

where is thise course, i so must road trip and play it!

Raleigh, NC. (http://www.pdga.com/course/courses_by_city.php?id=1267) (Actually, it's in Apex, but when you tell people that, they give you a blank look and say, "Where's that?")

I took back to back 5's on holes 3 and 4 at Mishawauka last weekend . . . tough holes . . . .

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm), where, on #15, you throw to an elevated basket sitting on an embankment with a slimy pond 12' behind it, with the ground behind the basket sloping toward the pond, and on #17, you throw through a narrow gap?from 474' or 351', depending on which tee you're playing from?over a 250' pond to a basket set 20' from the water's edge with the green sloping toward the pond and knock-down trees guarding the basket?



Does anyone try to go for deuce on hole 17? Even downhill, the hole is 474' with an extremely tight gap to hit. Seems like no one in their right mind would do anything but layup before the pond.

Does anyone try to go for deuce on hole 17? Even downhill, the hole is 474' with an extremely tight gap to hit. Seems like no one in their right mind would do anything but layup before the pond.

You're right on two counts: the gap is extremely tight, and no one in their right mind would go for the deuce. People do, though. Probably 'cuz they have more balls than brains. (Lot of people go for it from the white tee and don't make it, too.)

3 and 4 at Wilson can be a pain the arse at times! Now that the leaves are falling its opened up a bit more. We do plan on clearing some of the schule out of the right side of 4 here in the next few weeks. Opening it a little bit more so the risk is not as high as what it is now, but not making it to easy. It just needs to be cleared so that if you do not make it over the top, at least you can see where the basket is. Not like now, where falling short is virtually a guaranteed bogey. Chris Im surprised to hear you took a 5 on 3. I assume you hit the first set of trees heading up the hill and kicked left? BTW, your practice shot on 7 on Saturday was quite stunning!

There are a lot of holes with heavy woods or giant bushes that give you option of an easy par or potential birdie/bogie. You can get stuck behind something or in woods that require an entire shot just to get back to where you can throw at the basket again. Also, holes that have out of bounds or manditory routes will force you to decide whether or not to go for it. If you have the chance for a save shot with a long putt (easy par, potential birdie) or risk going out of bounds for an easier to make putt whereif you go out of bounds you end up with a difficult par and easy bogie.

I've only played one tournament and the idea of shooting for par unless the birdie is easy works really well. You'd be suprised just how many people will take the high risk shots and end up with worse scores.

Actually, Buckhorn is in New Hill,NC (my hometown), but since it's not even incorporated, it gets listed as Apex or Raleigh.

The only person I've seen successfully make the shot to #17 from the back tee is Walter Haney, in a casual round of doubles. I have made deuce myself from that tee, but it was with a fairway ace from just short of the pond.

Also, the pond is not 250' across, probably more like 210'. I can see why a big arm player might try to go across from the white (short) tee, but not from the longer one.

Buckhorn is a sweet course and 17 is a sweet hole.

My only complaint is that the Blue tee is just too long - I threw over 500 at the worlds distance contest and I've never even considered going for it - pretty much everyone lays up on the hole.

The white tee is an awesome hole, b/c so many people do go for it.

There is talking of making the white tee the blue tee and making a shorter white tee, which would make it a better hole I think.

Or, the blue tee should be backed up making it a more true par 4. It's a pretty easy lay up from the blues,nad backing it up 100 feet or so would make a very tough 3

Also, the pond is not 250' across, probably more like 210'. I can see why a big arm player might try to go across from the white (short) tee, but not from the longer one.

Drew, Walt and I ran a 300' measuring tape from the basket to the red tee/drop zone the Sat. before the Buckhorn Open last year and came up just short of 250'.

The white tee is an awesome hole, b/c so many people do go for it.

Funny thing is, in 3 years of retrieving discs @ the B-horn Meltdown, the only people I've seen go for it have been AM2s and lower-rated ADVs, and ain't none of 'em came close to making it across. :eek:

I think Pickard #5 at Worlds might fit the design goal, especially for divisions other than Open. Option for big hyzer over large pond to the right.

Can you say Rennaisance? :D

Does anyone try to go for deuce on hole 17? Even downhill, the hole is 474' with an extremely tight gap to hit. Seems like no one in their right mind would do anything but layup before the pond.

You're right on two counts: the gap is extremely tight, and no one in their right mind would go for the deuce. People do, though. Probably 'cuz they have more balls than brains. (Lot of people go for it from the white tee and don't make it, too.)



I've gone for that shot from the white tees three times that I can recall. I know I made it once with an orc and missed the birdie putt, and I'm thinking the other time I tried with an orc I either made it but was well to the left and had to lay up, or landed a couple feet or so from the edge. The third time I tried it was with a Flash I didn't care too much about losing, and I turned my wrist too much. Got about seven short skips and left it floating smack in the middle of the big wide part to the left. It was pretty funny. Not as funny as when I was helping retrieve a disc for Plankeye and the log on which I was standing started to sink though.

I didn't think about this until I was reading this thread, but for all the times I've tried to go for it on the other pond hole, I've only gone in the water once that I can recall. And that was by about 5 feet with a Hydra, so I still didn't lose the disc. :DUsually I try to throw it low enough not to take the risk...I'd rather aim for the hill beneath the hole and take my chances between a lucky skip and a drop-in or a putt from the bottom of the slope.

I made it across during the third and forth rounds of the Buckhorn meltdown this past year felix.

I had an easy deuce putt during the third round, but some idiot was trying to fish out his disc behind me and dropped the hook thing into the water when I putted and I left it short(I was only 15 feet away from the basket...putting uphill).

During the 4th round, I was 25-30 feet short and to the right of the pin. I went for the deuce...but was also careful.

JJ from the white tee in the 4th round hit dead center chains but kicked out hard left and stayed in bounds.

I made it across during the third and forth rounds of the Buckhorn meltdown this past year felix.

Maybe so, Will, but I wasn't there Sunday, so, as I said, I haven't seen anyone go for it and make it. :D

Yeah.

I know in the second round that year you saw me plunk 2 or 3 discs down in there and that was even after I next to the water's edge.

You also saw yahn take a 9 on the hole too.

Ever play a hole that is fairly easy to par for a decent player, but to go for a birdie entails a high risk shot that if missed will leave you with a likely bogie? I'm trying to imagine how such a shot could be constructed.



Play Stafford Lake.........It seems as if you could shoot WAY under, and FEW have, BUT there is ample opprtunity to put yourself in trouble with an errant shot :D

Even with the "Lack of Vegatation" penalty /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Emerald Isles and most of my courses have this design risk and reward.Good golf design is bogie, Par, and birdie all of my holes par out there is no half par. The best score at E I is -10 my micha D...Good design is no gimic and great to watch as a spectator game on!!! ;)

Emerald Isles and most of my courses have this design risk and reward.



As much as I hate to agree with Reese /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Emerald Isle is a great risk and reward course.
Most holes have "SandTrap OB" VERY near the pin. With quite a few having to be carried to get to the pin. This makes that hole that is within reach a bit more difficult with limited "landing zones"
:D

A must play if in Oceanside, Ca.. :D

Wow, Felix...I had no idea #17 was that far from the drop zone. I had gotten my distance estimate by stepping it off from the white tee, and subtracting out that distance. If it's 240', that helps explain why I've put so many rocs in the water after on my upshot.

Gratsi..... ;)New course in San Diego SOON itisgreatfun.....F18 moovin...

Gratsi..... ;)New course in San Diego SOON itisgreatfun.....F18 moovin...



Where Reese??? Point Loma...Presidio...C'mon :D

Check out the little 9 hole course in Burnet TX one of these days. #1 250 ft blind shot down a little hill. 10 ft past the basket is a creek. Lots of circles!

#3 260 down a hill, over trees, cross the creek, creek on left side of basket. Throw the spike hyzer just a little to far left and it's another circle.

#4 - 225ft. Easy hard hyzer skip but if you skip to far you're in the creek again

#6 - 225ft hyzer over the creek with trees overhanging. Miss the tight line, another circle.

#9 - 300ft goor roc line but the creek runs the entire length of the hole down the right. Hit one of the small trees and you're wet again.

none of the above :Dsmall and cheap :eek:South SD ;)

Like Chula Vista area???? :o

Next week I will tell all when contract is signed.

Cool ! ! ! ! ! A New Course in San Diego with Baskets !!!!!
Should be a Blast ! ! ! ! Can't wait ! ! ! !
Fly 18. :D

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm)



Woah, I totally forgot about this thread. What a great site for a course, though. Those holes look hellish. That course looks like Mordor! :eek:

Have you ever heard of the USDGC. There aer a few holes there that fit just that description.



Isn't USDGC just "US Disc Golf Championship"?

Play Stafford Lake.........It seems as if you could shoot WAY under, and FEW have, BUT there is ample opprtunity to put yourself in trouble with an errant shot :D

Even with the "Lack of Vegatation" penalty /msgboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif



Actually, I play Stafford every few weeks, I love that course. My friends who don't even like disg golf even love that course. Hanging out with deer and bunnies, no time pressure because there's only 5 groups total, and a nice mix of interesting holes. We're actually pretty poor players so we play Par +1 so it's easier to keep track of our scores. :D Every time I almost birdied, I'd go for the putt, hit the rim of the basket, and then have my disc roll 60-80 feet away.

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm)



Woah, I totally forgot about this thread. What a great site for a course, though. Those holes look hellish. That course looks like Mordor! :eek:

BTW, the "grass" in front of the basket on the far bank is actually floating pond weeds that extends out 20-30' into the water. They're think enough to keep your disc from sinking, but not thick enough to walk on, so if you land on them, there's a good chance you're gonna lose your disc. (The water's 3-3.5' deep at the bank and is NASTY.) the green stuff that extends from the foreground to the far bank is pond scum.

You mean like #15 and #17 at Buckhorn (http://www.radl.biz/Courses/BUCKHORN/main.htm), where, on #15, you throw to an elevated basket sitting on an embankment with a slimy pond 12' behind it, with the ground behind the basket sloping toward the pond, and on #17, you throw through a narrow gap�from 474' or 351', depending on which tee you're playing from�over a 250' pond to a basket set 20' from the water's edge with the green sloping toward the pond and knock-down trees guarding the basket?



Not only does that course look dope as hell, THAT WEBSITE IS THE SICKEST DISC GOLF SITE I'VE EVER SEEN :cool:

Yes that course is amazing.

super hard from the longs - WCP is ussualy around 54.

The RADL website is the best disc golf club website in the country. We are blessed to have a very talented web designer that keeps things up

Yes that course is amazing.

super hard from the longs - WCP is ussualy around 54.

The RADL website is the best disc golf club website in the country. We are blessed to have a very talented web designer that keeps things up



I have got to get out to NC and the surrounding area...The courses out there look challenging. :cool:

yes you have to get to NC!!

We have around 10-15 world class courses that are must plays!

We have around 10-15 world class courses that are must plays!

Including MTL's new favorite: the ALTS at Valley Springs. :p

no that ranks right up there with Swingin DB's for the worst course in NC

Here is an interesting design question.

I am currently adding a new position to a hole on our course. So far everyone is in favor of the new hard placement, here are the details.

340ft slight turnover shot through a 40ft gap of old growth mulberry trees. Middle putting green is a wide open 80ft circle surrounded by thick brush and new trees. New position cuts a hole in the back of the brush adding going approximately 60ft beyond the brush line. The "hole" will be only 20ft wide and 15ft tall. There will be a tree lying in the way of any skip shot to park the hole on the drive.

The question is, how to open up the "hole". There are about 300 recreational players who play in our town. And only about 25 tournament players, these tournament players are the ones who keep up the course and installed it. The suggestion was made to widen the hole to make it easier for everyone, but my goal was to make this hole a well earned 3, a punished 4 and a VERY VERY lucky 2. But widening the "hole" to the basket would make it a long easy three. The basket will be in a clearing you would just have to "shoot the hole" to get to it.

Ideally the hole is being designed to lay up at the start of the hole and then approach to the basket for a drop in putt.

Should the hole be designed for the 300 non tournament players who do not help on the course, or the few that would actually apprieciate the hole. Also there will be 2 other easy placements on the hole. Baskets are rotated every few weeks or so since there is only 1 course in town.

A hole that is a very very tough 2, yet is an easy three are the worst holes in golf.

On these types of holes, you can not gain a stroke, only lose a stroke.

Make it where a 2 gains a stroke and a 3 doesn't lose a stroke to most of the field

Multiple tees are better than multiple pins to serve different skill levels. If there's only one tee set on a course, all holes should be designed for a specific skill level to at least be consistent.

A hole where 2 out of 3 players at a certain skill level get 3s and 1 out of 3 get 2s is a good and very typical hole to spread scores. A hole where 2 out of 3 get 3s and 1 out of 3 get 4s or worse is also a good hole to spread scores, but players dislike them so you don't see them as often. Sounds like this hole might be that way at least for some skill level.

Design the hole for the 25 tournament players, because if what happens to "tight" holes around here is typical of what happens elsewhere, within two years the hole will evolve into an easy anyway 3 due to non-tournament players breaking branches, pulling up saplings, tramping down brush, etc., to get a clean look at the basket. :(

That's pretty much the way it works. No matter how well you lay it out, if you are relying on trees and shrubbery to keep people out, and the majority of traffic on your course is non tournament playing rec players, the hole probably won't remain "tight" very long.

Gary, Chuck is right. Multiple tees will allow you to cater to both groups.

If you want to protect the shrubs and smaller trees, put a net up in front of them so that people don't end up in them, they still get stuck behind the net, but they aren't in the small stuff so they won't be tempted to rip it up.

Interesting idea, but not sure how well it would work outside of a private course. A chain link fence might last a coupe of years, but netting. That might attract the vandals that don't even play disc golf. More things that evidently took someone else's time and money to install are just easy targets. It just seems that the more you try to vandal proof something, the harder they try to break it and nothing is completely vandal proof.

ParkN,
At least you have admitted to what you are doing -- designing a hole for the dedicated few. It happens everywhere. The home course experts (aka - "the keepers of the keys") get bored with a current pin placement and turn the former putting green into a landing area, then slam the basket 75' into an adjacent wood. Good idea? Hard to say?

It's a GREAT hole for the few course regulars that have the level of play to make a 2. It's no more than a "gotta' make 3" for most. Then it becomes no more than a DECENT or BORING hole. But isn't "boring" where we started?

I've always respected the work done by the keepers of the keys. Been there, done that, doing that. Comma, but, be careful that your public course doesn't turn into your private design for the few.

Final thought. Just because a new pin placement is harder or longer, it doesn't make it a better hole. I think Houk keeps reminding us that sometimes its just a stupid hole.

Happy digging,
Ron