This weekend I just started turning over my 170g DX Leopard. I was actually trying to learn to throw (RHBH) a hyzer by lowering my right shoulder and releasing the disc at an angle, but to my surprise the disc would flatten out pretty quickly, and then after flying straight for a second, it would continue on to the the right, with finally a slight fade to the left when it slowed down.

Now that I've described the throw, my real question is this: since I'm now able to turn this disc over, I must be getting decent snap, right? But my distance hasn't really changed that much, shouldn't more snap add more distance to your throws? Or is it possible that this disc has taken enough beating that it is now too understable, and I haven't actually added much snap? My throws were between 200 - 250, but it was slightly downhill, so it's hard to say for sure. Also, I was able to flatten my 172g XS (Elite X) from a hyzer angle, but it was actually cutting left at the end, and I was turning my brand new 168g Comet (Elite X) over, and then some (never rolled it, though).

This is all assuming calm winds...

Turning over the Leopard and Comet are a natural thing to do, they're both understable discs. Give some lighter and more overstable plastic a try for bigger D, like a new Flash, or maybe a 150 Valk, TeeBird, etc. You could get more distance with the ligher plastic, in a helix (backwards S) pattern.

Now for my question on this topic.

I want to throw a RHBH about 220, and have it fade RIGHT. The Optimizer is a bit too understable. Thrown at a hyzer angle, the Optimizer will slowly roll over, but too soon for the shot I want. What disc is a little bit more stable than the Optimizer?

madcow:

it sounds like you may be torquing the disc over on these. the turn should be fairly gradual (with a few exceptioned cases out there). a torque free release on a hyzer is one where your follow through should be on the same plane as the disc angle on launch. an alternate way of thinking about this is that your arm should continue upwards on an angle opposite of the hyzer angle. even very overstable discs will flatten if thrown sufficiently hard and with a skewed follow through i.e. releasing the disc on a 45 degree hyzer angle and then following through flat (parellel to the ground) as this will simulate a wrist roll over.

to big_chiz, in terms of stability, since the discontinuation of the dolphin, i've always found the stratus to be one step more stable than the optimizer.

Chiz,

At that distance I usually throw my putter, anything longer and I'm forced to hold back on my drive and that's just uncomfortable. The longer faster discs take more time to slow down and fade--on a 220' hole there just isn't time for that. But as for a disc suggestion, if you're looking for a disc that will go straight for the majority of its flight and then turn right as it slows try a Stratus. I don't know how it relates ratings-wise to the Optimizer, but I've always had good success with it.

it sounds like you may be torquing the disc over on these. the turn should be fairly gradual (with a few exceptioned cases out there). a torque free release on a hyzer is one where your follow through should be on the same plane as the disc angle on launch. an alternate way of thinking about this is that your arm should continue upwards on an angle opposite of the hyzer angle.




ok, i will keep my eye on that next time i play. so is the notion the more snap = more distance essentially correct?

chiz:

yeah, there was no wind. thanks for the tip, i was actually thinking about checking out some 150 class plastic, since i have quite a noodle arm. :D

I want to throw a RHBH about 220, and have it fade RIGHT. The Optimizer is a bit too understable. Thrown at a hyzer angle, the Optimizer will slowly roll over, but too soon for the shot I want. What disc is a little bit more stable than the Optimizer?



Try at beat up putter thrown on a slight hyzer angle, or a worn comet. The comet is a great disc for any shot over 200' that needs to just keep turning right w/o rolling

Ya madcow. I was doing the exact same thing yesterday. I don't have the strongest throw but my discs were turning over like crazy. I was wondering if they hit a tree one too many times, or if I was actually getting more power on the throw. Blake has told me how off axis torque can make discs turn over before this happened, so I when I was throwing, I tried to pay attention to what was going on.

My understanding of snap, is that it is supposed to generate more power/velocity along with more spin. So the additional velocity would make the throws have more distance and create more lift on the outer edge, making the disc more prone (if thats the right word) to turn over. The extra amount of spin along with velocity, I'm pretty sure, helps stabilize the disc and cut through the air though, so at the beginning of the flight the disc will hold the angle you release it at for a little bit then turn over.

This makes me think my disc was just turning over with off-axis torque, because my disc seemed to be turning over right out of my hand, even if I released it with a hyzer angle. I might have been doing what Blake said you might be doing and following through with my arm parrellel with the ground oppose to parrellel with the angle of the disc.

I went out today and tried to just make a cleaner release and the discs weren't turning over the same. So it was probably the off-axis torque. Even though, its possible I had a powerful shot yesterday and was just butchering it today trying to get a clean release or due to uncomfortably cold weather.

Try a ORC or VALK around 168 g. i use mine alot to hyzer and they also make for some good rolls if u get it way over the top! ;)

madcow:
ah, i realize now i didn't really answer your question... i was mainly referring to the disc's turn behavior that you were describing.

but to sum things up, turn does not indicate snap, although it does usually show that you are getting the nose down. more snap = more distance (given that the throw has sufficient height and nose angle, etc.).

if you aren't throwing 350+, it's probably safe to say that you are not getting tremendous snap at the moment.

it's important remember that there are 2 kinds of turn (i'm not counting an anhyzer release as a "turn"): speed turn and torque turn. speed turns are caused by velocity and nose down angle and with very high speed stable discs, they are more apt to just flatten. torque turn is caused by a change in the angle of release right as the disc is leaving the hand and are usually used for shots like roll curves and rollers.

speed turns will generally occur after the 40% mark in flight (unless it's a very understable disc) and the turn will usually be gradual. torque turns will be more abrupt and generally the disc will have a fairly abrupt change in angle (this can be achieved with large amounts of snap, but in these cases the disc will generally flatten from a hyzer and stabilize). torque can be caused by a jerky motion during release, a wrist roll over (or under but this will not lead to turn), dropping the right shoulder down during the follow through, or an early follow through at an angle below (or above) the angle necessary for a "pure" release. for example, a disc that starts out slight hyzer and then divebombs off to the right is generally caused by torque turn.

from my experiences working with players, especially players who started disc golf in 2001 to present, i would be willing to wager that most turnover "problems" are actually caused by torque.

these are just a few things to keep in mind. throws with a lot of snap and no torque will often lead to some of the straightest flights out there.

madcow:
ah, i realize now i didn't really answer your question... i was mainly referring to the disc's turn behavior that you were describing...

...these are just a few things to keep in mind. throws with a lot of snap and no torque will often lead to some of the straightest flights out there.



wow, you must see a lot of this stuff, because without ever seeing me throw, you did a great job analyzing what was going on. definitely sounds like i was either torquing it in the follow through, or rolling my wrist, but i suspect it was the former. knowing that i need to keep the follow through on the same plane as the release is very helpful, and shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

what 's the specific issue with players who started disc golf in 2001 to present? is it the types of discs being thrown? as far as technique goes, my main backhand resource has been your (really awesome) site. i really need to play along with some more experienced disc golfers.

This is interesting because I've been trying to learn the bent arm tequnique because I have maxed out at 300ft. And I actually felt that I had some good snap and saw some more 'float' to the disc even though they were only going the same distance as before, the wierd thing is, I actually saw one of my discs thrown with hyzer hold that hyzer line for the 1st 3rd of flight and then almost instantaniously flip to flat which it held through the rest of the flight. Usually on my nice throws I would have a gradual left to right turn, then a fade at the end. So it sounds like my snap has actually worked and increased spin... Now if only i can add speed too! any suggestions at this point in my game?

Try a ORC or VALK around 168 g. i use mine alot to hyzer and they also make for some good rolls if u get it way over the top! ;)



Orc? Are you kidding? If he can only get his Leapord to 225', an Orc in his hands would be like a Speed Demon/FireBird in anyone elses. He definatly needs to stick with Valk/Sabre type discs until its time to step up to Blaze/TeeBird/etc.

Ask Blake as far as technique goes. As far as Disc Selection, heres my advice:
Your DX Leopard is flippy...get a Champion Leapord in any weight. The difference in plastic should be enough, and it should be what you want. Also, try a Sabre. As Blake will agree, the Sabre is a great disc for those with less snap, and is very straight. Stay clear of the wide rimmed drivers until you can comfortably put Valks/Sabres/Leopards out to around 330' or so.

Heres some stuff recommended by Blake via his website (DiscGolfReview.com) for those who only throw 200'-300'

Gateway Sabre
Innova Cobra
Discraft Storm

madcow:
the 2001 to present coincides with the release of champion edition and z plastic (fall 2000) and its mainstream acceptance in early 2001. the problem is twofold. first off, when i started in early 2000, kc/millennium/elite pro plastic was waaaaaay durable... it lasted ~4x as long as standard discs and was well worth the extra $2 :) these discs flew like slightly more overstable versions of their standard plastic counterparts, e.g. dx teebird was similar to the kc teebird (9x), the voyager was similar to the polaris ls (~1.5-1.10), the cyclone was similar to the ron russell cyclone, etc.

the second change came with the release of ce/z. when the super premium lines launched the mentality of most players changed. first off, people became dependent upon discs that were fairly inconsistent from run to run. i see people paying $75 for a ce valkyrie when that would buy 10-12 dx valkyries. second (and a couple of years removed), people began to focus on durability more than flight characteristics. as early as mid 2001 people began asking me "what disc is ce/z and max d?" my reply of "none of those are max d" was met with "so what is the longest flying ce/z disc?" rather than "oh, i guess if i want max d i will throw something else." fact of the matter is, broken in discs fly farther/straighter than new discs.

i also think of it this way, a broken in dx/standard plastic disc is like a baseball that a pitcher has scuffed up with a nail file whereas a champ/z disc is like a brand new baseball. which will the pitcher have more control over? a similar comparison could be made with a dimpled vs. dimpleless golf ball.

basically, discs have become faster and with less air friction which lead to more squirrly behavior and less controlability. before my shoulder injury, i was throwing dx eagles and teebirds ~425'. however, in this era, i couldn't even flatten up a newish z xpress from a 10 degree hyzer angle.

as time progressed, i saw more and more players throwing the anhyzer line with discs that were too fast/stable for them to control. a parallel is that i saw less and less players throwing midrange/putters off the tee with success. people just tried to force s-curves too early in their development and had a fundamental breakdown which as they added power, forced them to throw more and more overstable discs rather than revise their technique. i understand this because i'm not going to tell someone throwing 400' to change.

however, the overall outcome is something like this: if i can throw ~390' with controlled D (with broken in dx discs) and i find a champion teebird to be quite overstable when i try to throw a 10 degree flattened hyzer (my controlled D shot of choice), a player with ~330' of max D should not be rolling this disc even when releasing it with 30+ degrees of hyzer. however, more and more i find myself "repairing" the technique of players who developed a lot of torque over to compensate for disc overstability.

keep in mind that i'm not anti-champ/z plastic, i just

i realize this was a long-winded reply to a simple question, but hopefully some people will find it interesting.

also, just for reference, i find leopards don't really start flying understable (unless they are sufficiently broken in) until players have ~275+ power.

beast156g:

be wary off too much float, as it may indicate not enough nose down, although you could be fine and just have a ton of spin and could use some more velocity. as for increasing your D from here, i would recommend concentrating finishing strong and clean (clean = no off-axis). from the sound if it you have probably tapped the surface of the bent elbow technique and once you start finishing strong... you'll be really ripping em and they will be rockets out of the hand. concentrate on feel and timing. you can still throw far (upwards of 375 even) without a strong finish but to break the 400' mark you'll need to have a good finish that occurs at the right time.

Hey DiscinDeadHead,

Thanks for the words of wisdom. You know, I actually went to buy a Sabre this last weekend at Santa Cruz Disc in Santa Cruz, CA, but they do not carry Gateway discs. :( The salesman almost had me convinced to grab an XL, but they were all over 170. I'm going to place an order on-line as soon as I figure out what weight Cobra to get my girlfriend, since I lost her old one (She's about 5'4", throws almost 200 feet). The Storm looks interesting, maybe I'll grab one of those too, as I don't have any discs in that class.

As for the Leopard, it may be flippy, I've definitely taken some chunks out of it (stupid fence). ;)

the 2001 to present coincides with the release of champion edition and z plastic (fall 2000) and its mainstream acceptance in early 2001... ...i realize this was a long-winded reply to a simple question, but hopefully some people will find it interesting.



Well, I find this stuff very interesting, though I'm kind of a nerd, and I really appreciate the depth of your responses; the analogies to ball golf and baseball make much sense. I wish I could reciprocate, but 1 - I have little knowledge on the current subject, and 2 - I have pretty bad tendinitis so I try to keep from typing too much (Which is why I ask a ton of questions).

I have definitely noticed that when I put some anhyzer on my throws I get up to 25% more distance, but with a fraction of the control. unfortunately, my first disc was elite z, because they didn't have the x version, but I only took it out twice before I found an x replacement . (The Z was too slick, and I don't have the strongest grip).


also, just for reference, i find leopards don't really start flying understable (unless they are sufficiently broken in) until players have ~275+ power.




"Flying understable" as in having high-speed turn to the right (RHBH)? My Leopard has never flown straight for me, it always goes right. DiscinDeadHead suggested earlier that my it might be flippy.. this combined with what you said makes me think that it must be.

i realize this was a long-winded reply to a simple question, but hopefully some people will find it interesting.


:p Quite; I especially appreciate the timelines.

...have you covered as to why a seasoned disc flies further than one out-of-the-box? Why not just mould them that way?! :confused:

madcow:
by flying understable i mean turning to the right.
leopards can be made to fly straight if they are not overpowered. try throwing it hyzer and seeing if you can get it to flatten up and continue straight. with sufficient finesse/touch you should be able to get this flight path, especially if you are throwing less than 300' on average. there will be a point in your game where you will want to perform some throws that involve torquing a disc over, but until that point, it has a strong negative impact in terms of developing your game with solid fundamentals.

as for the anhyzer/turned over flight being much longer for you.. ideally, the difference shoudln't be so great. thrown with a flat and straight flight path (by whatever method you choose to execute this flight), the difference should be more like 5-7%. while it is a much bigger factor on max D s-curves, on most golf shots, the difference will be minimal. there are a few discs out there that do have slightly higher distance differentials (the X-XL comes to mind and a lot of the z/champ plastic discs) but they probably shouldn't be more than 15%. i've done extensive distance testing and often i find the distance on a good pull that doesn't turn over to a good pull that turns a bit and gets a line drive S is often less than 15-20' on my 375' throws. guys like Steve Brinster and Steve Rico throw a LOOOOOOOONG ways on throws that never turn over and hold a slight hyzer for their entire flights.

slo:
broken in discs fade later. the longer the disc flies in the forward direction (read as: holds its line), the farther it goes :)

as for molding them that way, imo, it would be worse. a conversation i had w/ David McCormack basically summed things up: the longest life span of a disc is from when it is slightly broken in to when it is so broken in it will no longer hold its line. discs don't stay new for very long and generally this broken in period lasts about 5-10X longer than the new period.

if the disc flies the way you want it to when it is broken in, you are getting the most for your money. there are certain discs i like a lot when brand new but hate them when they get broken in... but most of the discs i throw i hate when they are new but then can enjoy them for a hundred rounds as they break in before they are rollers.

Now for my question on this topic.

I want to throw a RHBH about 220, and have it fade RIGHT. The Optimizer is a bit too understable. Thrown at a hyzer angle, the Optimizer will slowly roll over, but too soon for the shot I want. What disc is a little bit more stable than the Optimizer?



Have you tried the Breeze? This is the disc I use for this shot. Love this disc!

Champion Stingray thrown easy.

220, fade right (RHBH)...

Toyed with the cobra and stratus for years, and was quite excited when the champion cobra was released because I enjoy the longevity of the ce/z plastics. Over the years the driver of choice has gone from a cyclone, xl, teebird, wildcat with about two years on each mold (true am here). Driving with a deeper rim is uncomfortable, need to train for yet another grip. Getting a clean release when driving with a putter, or cobra, stratus, breeze and roc...it just doesn't come off the hand consistently.

The new ace race disc (glide?) feels good, but it's a mental effort to get the speed:snap ratio just right the 220 shot. Might try a stingray. It has more of a pointy lip and is now offered in ce plastic (which takes longer to break in but is more durable).

Over the last year the forehand shot has become much more consistent, and the 220 fade right can be done by using the forehand. I seemed to have reached a conundrum of searching for a disc to execute the backhand throw with the right fade, or using a forehand shot with the wildcat. I've executed both, but neither are consistent. Perhaps it's time to get to the practice field and work the shots until the confidence level is sufficient.

Specifically, I'm tyring to get a 220 tunnel shot that fades or skips right at the end. Now that I've better described the shot, the forehand drive with the wildcat seems the way to go.

Thanks everyone, for the suggestions and for listening while the problem became more defined.

Specifically, I'm tyring to get a 220 tunnel shot that fades or skips right at the end. Now that I've better described the shot, the forehand drive with the wildcat seems the way to go.



I think you're right that you're describing a good right hand, forehand shot. When a RHBH shot ends up hitting the ground as it's flying to the right it won't skip to the right. At best, you'll get it to stop where it is or skid forward a couple of feet. The disc just isn't spinning the right way to get it to skip like that. A forhand shot, on the other hand, will skip off to the right and fade that way naturally.

I'm not good, or even very familiar with rollers but there might be some sort of roller that will roll off to the right. Depending on the size of the opening you have to hit it could be either fairly easy or very difficult to excecute a roller like that, though. I find air shots to be much more predictable, but that could be my inexperience.

As for the Leopard, I find that the flight path described is exactly how my 175g fairly beat Leopard acts...when I throw it 300 feet. If you have trouble torqueing discs over or rolling your wrist (as I do) then the Leopard will definately bring out that flaw in your technique. It may be worth while to continue to work with the Leopard until you can get it to fly farther with that same flight path. I found that throwing understable discs always helps out when I'm having wrist roll-over problems. Once I can get a Leopard to fly right all I do is add a bit of power and my Teebirds seem to fly forever.

Rollers can go in any direction especially at the 220 mark, but the problem is that the direction can be GREATLY altered if you hit any sticks or rocks or anything. This could turn the perfect roll drive that was headed for under the basket to one that went half as far as you needed and is buried in a bush. That's the nice thing about air... no sticks. While rollers can be used for super max d. I think the world record is like crazy and over 1000 ft, but that was on PERFECTLY flat ground with nothing to hit. I have used short turn rollers before, and even stuck one within 6 feet on a really tricky hole for a tourney CTP. The hole is actually really short, but there is a tree directly in front of the tee and a huge group of trees in front of the basket. Only ways to play it are a short roller around all that, tomahawk into the tree just behind the hole as a backstop, or a big old spike hyzer (although I Haven't seen anyone park that shot, it always goes long, but could have potential.) So if the ground is predictable go for it, but as everyone else says, it sounds like a perfect forehand flick. :D

I would say perfect backhand roller, forehand rollers tend to finish left, correct?

ok, sounds like it's back to the drawing board (or at least the practice tee) with the Leopard. If the rain ever let's up, that is...

ok, sounds like it's back to the drawing board (or at least the practice tee) with the Leopard. If the rain ever let's up, that is...



Good call! And as far as the Sabre goes, you can call Gateway at the shop, and they'll be more than happy to hook you up!

www.GDSTour.com (http://www.GDSTour.com) ~or~ (314) 429-DISC ~or~ [email protected]

Pardon the interlude...
I want to throw a RHBH about 220, and have it fade RIGHT.

Is this acceptable terminology? I was under the impression that a fade meant the disc starts to go in the direction of the spin, not merely deviate [one way or the other] from going straight.

basically, discs have become faster and with less air friction which lead to more squirrly behavior and less controlability. before my shoulder injury, i was throwing dx eagles and teebirds ~425'. however, in this era, i couldn't even flatten up a newish z xpress from a 10 degree hyzer angle.



I am the freak, because I started in 2002 and I have the "old school" style of throwing. What you describe here is me, exactly. I get huge distances out of DX Teebirds and Eagles, but give me anything in Champion or Z and I can't throw it. I get made fun of alot because I throw high-160's DX Teebirds and DX Eagles for distance, while everyone else throws 175 ORC's and Flashes. But my throws have an element of control that none of theirs have, and mine are much more consistant.

When these plastics came out, companies left their DX plastic to the beginners and focused on the premium lines. Every year, DX gets less and less durrable as they cheapen the plastic. DX from 2-4 years ago lasts atleast 3 times as long as todays DX. They really screwed us. That's why I throw Gateway S now. Believe it or not, DX actually used to be similar to S plastic. If Gateway ever changes their plastic, I'm gone.

while everyone else throws 175 ORC's and Flashes



Interesting, at the course a few weeks ago it seemed like everyone we ran into was throwing a 170g+ Champion Orc that "cost like 20 bucks". There's a guy there who collects and sells all the discs that get lost in the water, and I saw someone give him half a dozen Champion Valkyries to sell, saying "I only throw Orcs now". Are Orcs the new craze, or what? I had never heard of them before that day.

while everyone else throws 175 ORC's and Flashes



Interesting, at the course a few weeks ago it seemed like everyone we ran into was throwing a 170g+ Champion Orc that "cost like 20 bucks". There's a guy there who collects and sells all the discs that get lost in the water, and I saw someone give him half a dozen Champion Valkyries to sell, saying "I only throw Orcs now". Are Orcs the new craze, or what? I had never heard of them before that day.



They are the fad thing of the moment...but when people need good ole reliable, you better beleive they still reach for Cyclones/Gazelles/TeeBirds/InsertControlableDriveHere/etc.

Not that they aren't good discs...I just have a feeling they aren't THE disc for most people.

[

Interesting, at the course a few weeks ago it seemed like everyone we ran into was throwing a 170g+ Champion Orc that "cost like 20 bucks". There's a guy there who collects and sells all the discs that get lost in the water, and I saw someone give him half a dozen Champion Valkyries to sell, saying "I only throw Orcs now". Are Orcs the new craze, or what? I had never heard of them before that day.



The ORC is Innova's fastest driver, so naturally everyone throws one. When the Valk came out, it was the fastest, and everyone had one. Then it was the Beast, everyone had one. Now it's the ORC, everyone has one. Eventually, everyone will be disowning their ORC's for the next disc from Innova.

It's an ongoing cycle. Everyone is looking for more distance at the expence of consistancy.

Variation due to production techniques, mutants, can be advantages to some golfers and later evolve to a standard.

Thanks for the tips there's some really good info in this thread!

[QUOTE]
Cyclones/Gazelles/TeeBirds/InsertControlableDriveHere/etc.
[\quote]

Oh my, did DiscinDeadHead just mention controllable drivers without mentioning the Sabre or Blaze??? :eek:

[QUOTE]
Cyclones/Gazelles/TeeBirds/InsertControlableDriveHere/etc.
[\quote]

Oh my, did DiscinDeadHead just mention controllable drivers without mentioning the Sabre or Blaze??? :eek:



That was more for them...of course I throw a Blaze for control...most controlable disc since the TeeBird...but slower (I think) so it grooves for me better.

Ok, was just making sure that your allegiance hasn't faltered.

Ok, was just making sure that your allegiance hasn't faltered.



Never...BWAHAAAA!!