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May 27 2002, 10:19 AM
Two of my favorite things in life are disc golf and Jesus. Both are very important to me. I was wondering if anybody knows of any clubs or organizations for Christian disc golfers. I am in the Texas area, but would be interested in any information on the subject, whether it be in Texas area or some other state. If there is not anything yet, is there any interest?

May 27 2002, 02:21 PM
Hey Bogey, I was playing a tournament up in Tulsa last month and a guy was wearing a shirt that said DISCiples Disc Golf. I dunno what the group was or where - but it was way cool. My doubles partner and I are believers and it's encouraging to beat... I mean, play a good friend who loves Jesus. We're in Dallas - and I'm right there with ya - if there's a regular group - that would be fun.

May 27 2002, 04:15 PM
Let me know if you guys are going to make something happen. I'am a believer also and would enjoy playing with people that I can relate to, and not have the cussing, drinking and other stuff that we all put up with.

May 27 2002, 05:13 PM
Dennis, that was Dasun Keylor in Tulsa. He, Dixon Jowers & friends, put those shirts together in the D/FW area a few years ago. ( I think.) I will find out if there is any copyright, etc.......Thet are a great witnessing tool. oh, Dennis. By the Way, I cashed @ the Mid-America Open!!!!! Praise be to God! Pray that I make a solid witness of His Love this weekend @ KCWO!!!

May 27 2002, 05:41 PM
I don't know about religious disc golf groups, but I think I heard something about a disc golf cult not too long ago. I don't know if you would be into it with their worshiping of the almighty iron basket and burning offerings of first run CE plastic to the gods of the wind, water and woods. If you are looking for them, it is said that they conjugate on the 6th green during full moons, where the bright disc in the sky gives them special powers.

(religious does not mean courteous and vice versa)

May 27 2002, 06:17 PM
I'm a frisbeetarian. We believe that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck.

May 27 2002, 06:24 PM
All y'all need to get your pastors playing dg! (If they're too uptight to try it, maybe y'all need to start lookin' for another pastor! /clipart/smile.gif) I get together with three other pastors every other Monday in Raleigh to shoot a round. One of 'em drives an hour and a half one way to play. (We're going to duck out of a couple of Annual Conference sessions next week to play Arnette Park, Middle River, and (hopefully) The Barrons!)

Also, if you haven't already done so, talk to your youth pastor about holding a dg outing/tournament for your church's youth group (also works for singles/young adults). Guaranteed to net you a couple of converts ... uh, new partners.

BTW, slightly OT, but church camps/retreat centers are always looking for "wholesome, family-friendly" activities (not to mention potential revenue streams: think all those kiddies, each "needing" his/her own disc) to add to their programs. Talk to the camp/retreat center director about putting in a course! (A couple of years ago, I laid out a family-friendly, 9 hole object course for a church-related retreat centre in Bloomfield, Ontario. I heard recently from the director that they're going to add another 9 holes and put in baskets!)

May 27 2002, 07:59 PM
Felix, that sounds pretty cool. Appearently you may have had some experience in getting things like that organized? If so , would you be able to get some people to write up letters expressing their opinions to use as letters of recommendation for it?

Please e-mail me to discuss this further, if you are interested.


Craig Leyva


May 27 2002, 08:00 PM
My e-mail is [email protected]

May 27 2002, 09:54 PM
Hey Guys,I try to do litle witnessing on the course myself. I have given some thought to starting a group called "God Rocs". What do you think? My putter says "I will putt my faith in Christ!" My KC Whippet says "Stand firm in the faith!" (reference to throwing it turned over with a lot of confidence)If you have any other fun sayings along those lines, pease list them. All you pastors out there, how 'bout a cyber connection of Christian golfers. Ed #4929

May 27 2002, 10:15 PM
Here we go again. There was nothing offensive about this thread.

It's funny how people that don't believe in what someone else believes, just can't stay out of it.

So a Hindu disc golfer comes on line and wants to find others of like faith and start a fellowship of Hindu disc golfers. If they do, I hope Atheists, Baptists, Catholics, Islams, Bhuddists,
and all the devil worshipers and witches can give them the courtesy of letting them pursue their fellow players of like belief.

The intelligent atheists and agnostics are more than welcome to start a frisbeetarian network.

Let me know when any of these start trying to dictate policy or having PDGA sanctioned events on private property that are open to only players of the same belief as the property owner. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

May 27 2002, 10:35 PM
Every good & perfect putt is from above, coming down from the Father of Lights, w/ Whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. James 1:17 ( New Floridian Translation ) :}

May 27 2002, 11:08 PM
Holy Rollers Disc Golf Club's "Book of Ken"

"Let he who casts the first Roc be without bogey."

May 27 2002, 11:40 PM
In the "end times" if somebody throws an archangel too high and it gets lost in the clouds during the rapture and doesn't come down, and Jesus returns the disc to you during his second coming, as prophesied in Matthew 24 and Revelation, what a head rush that would be.

May 27 2002, 11:41 PM
If people put up threads (any thread) they must realize that they open themselves up to public scrutiny (and in our case heckling and semi-inappropriate jokes). I can't vouch for others, but I know my aim was nothing other than humor (other than the mild jab at noputtinsavage)and while others may not agree with me, I don't find any of it distasteful (from what I've read up to this point).

May 28 2002, 12:22 AM
Like I said, Justin. I think it's funny.

What isn't funny are the twists and turns threads such as these have taken in the not to distant past.

While many of us torture /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif one another on all kinds of issues on the discussion board, it would do us all a service if we tried our best to respect peoples beliefs in something that matters more to them than anything could possibly matter to anyone.

My posts here are not aimed at what has been posted in this early stage but more at what I have come to expect from earlier threads.

May 28 2002, 12:29 AM
Good thing you made such a big deal about Randy, otherwise it may have gone unnoticed.

May 28 2002, 12:48 AM
Amen Randy

May 28 2002, 01:37 AM
I'm glad to see several Christian disc golfers responding to this thread, especially those from the great state of Texas!!!!!!

I would love to get a Christian disc golfing group started. I spend much of my free time on the disc golf course, but hardly any of my Christian friends play. So if you are interested, drop me an email at
[email protected] or just post a message on this board.

May 28 2002, 01:38 AM
/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif Hoo-Boy! This kind adds a whole new meaning to the term "Holy Roller" doesn't it? /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

May 28 2002, 01:43 AM
I can almost hear it now...

"Yea, though I throw through the valley of death, I shall fear no tree..."

May 28 2002, 02:12 AM
Didn't they start a Worlds with something like this? /clipart/wink.gif

May 28 2002, 06:31 AM
Zecheriah 5:5-11

5 Then the archangel who talked with me came out and said to me, "Lift your eyes now, and see what this is that goes forth."
6 So I asked, "What is it?" And he said, "It is a bag that is going forth." He also said, "This is how they are seen throughout the land:
7 "Here is a heavy disc in the bag being lifted up, and this is a woman sitting next to the bag lifting up the heavy disc";
8 then he said, "This is Wickedness!" And he thrust her bag down, and threw the heavy disc inside it.
9 Then I raised my eyes and looked, and there were two women, coming with the wind in their wings; for they had wings like the wings of a stork, and they lifted up the bag between earth and heaven.
10 So I said to the archangel who talked with me, "Where are they carrying the bag?"
11 And he said to me, "To build a house for it in the land of Shinar; when it is ready, the bag will be set there."

May 28 2002, 09:01 AM
In the four years we've been open as a pay-for-play, we've only had problems on the course twice (deliberate destruction of property) ..

both times it was adult supervised Christian youth groups ..

As a business owner, I much prefer the cussing, drinking and other stuff people, who at least respect my investment...

at your service,


May 28 2002, 10:04 AM
Yeah, they destroyed your shrine to Satan, your meth kitchen, and your cache of animal pornography. Can't say I blame them.

May 28 2002, 11:00 AM
DISCiples of Jesus
7 Under Club
Jehovah's Wrist Flips
White Anglo-Saxon Putters
Tee Monks
First Club of the Hyzerene

oh, and I once played in a Kosher Pickle

May 28 2002, 11:34 AM
God, Family, Disc Golf. The rest is nothing but details.

May 28 2002, 12:36 PM
Hey dsglfnpool,

You even got the order right. I think the church camp idea is definitely worth exploring. If your church has some land you can even set up a temporary object course for a youth activity. I've done that a couple of times and the kids loved it. Just make sure your groups set a good example if you go to a public course, courtesy etc. I've never had any problems but you can turn people off rather quickly if you are a bad witness through your actions. (See M. Brown's post above)

Pizza God
May 28 2002, 01:08 PM
Hey, by brother-in-law is now a minister at his church. He only gets 2 weekends off a year now. So much for tournaments. We will be comming out for a few Texas 10's though because he gets Saturdays off.

I know that he would be interested, I know of some other Disc Golfers who have quit the tournament game because of what goes on at some of them.

May 28 2002, 02:10 PM
The Christian summer camp i've worked at the past two years has disc golf as one of their activities. They have two complete 18 hole courses with Innova Discatchers on their property for the campers to play on. Talk about a fun camp to work for! Wouldn't you know its in Texas. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Pine Cove Christian Camps Tyler, TX

May 28 2002, 02:13 PM
Oh by the way, the camp i'm speaking of runs for ten weeks during the summer. They normally have at least 200 junior high and 200 high school kids EACH WEEK at the camps with the disc golf courses.

May 28 2002, 02:16 PM
Dallas/Fort Worth golfers:

Here are some men that I know about for starters:

An advanced masters who recently moved here from Alabama, who lives in northeast Dallas.

A younger than masters (division unknown) who will be moving here very shortly to work with Young Life in Collin County.

A rec player, ~50 yrs old, who lives in northeast Dallas.

Craig Leyva (new to me, welcome Craig!), a long arm leftie Open Pro who lives in the Arlington area, I think.

and me. I am registered as an MPM, but I haven't played in a PDGA tournament in awhile due to family.

I think it would be great to get together on a semi-regular basis for some DG and fellowship. I have kind of talked with the first 2 on the list about it, but have not set anything up yet.

Any further comments I will reserve for private email.

Feel free to respond here or by email. My address is:
[email protected]


Bill Burns

May 28 2002, 02:33 PM

My son went to Pine Cove last year, and is preparing to go this year as well. As God would have it, his counselor last year (Flipper) plays on his collegiate Ultimate team!

Are the courses new? Maybe I didn't know about them because he was at the Towers. This summer he will also stay at the Towers, for the last time. Man, I'd like to play them after I drop him off! When I was walking around the Towers, I couldn't help but saying to myself, "This would be a cool hole..."

Are you going to be there again this summer?


May 28 2002, 04:22 PM
1986-87 Pine Cove camper here. They had only one object course to play with Wham-o's when i attended during those two years. First place ever to see "Frisbee Golf"/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Wish i wouldn't have forgotten about it for 10 years. Reintroduced in 1996 to a basket course in Tulsa(Riverside).

May 28 2002, 04:47 PM

May 28 2002, 05:45 PM
They have one course at the Ranch (junior high)and one at the Shores (senior high). I know they have had them the past two summers at least. The baskets are portable, that way the course can be changed and for mowing. The Family Camp and the Towers do have object courses.

I wish i had the oppurtunity to be a camper at Pine Cove. Oh well, God has blessed me enough by letting me work there. I have been a wrangler at the Family camp one summer and the Ranch last summer. My camp name is Uno. My cousin will be a wrangler at the Towers this summer weeks 1-5! Unfortunately, i'm not working there this summer (maybe next year!). I've got to complete research and classes for graduate school.

If you have time you might check out the local Tyler course. Its only about 10-15 minutes from the camps.

May 28 2002, 05:48 PM
My-Hero and Bill, it is a really small world isn't it?

My-Hero, which Pine Cove camp did you attend?

May 28 2002, 07:12 PM
Pine Cove alum here, also. Never forget the great daddy long legs ice cream prank on the girls. Small world indeed.

May 29 2002, 01:15 PM
I'm assuming the Ranch, i was in Junior High, age 14-15. I was unaware of the Shores. I do remember playing Gustapo, which i heard they had to rename/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Talk about old times.

May 30 2002, 07:05 PM
The Shores is a relatively new part of camp. Its only about 5 years old. They are changing it into another Family camp and building a new Shores. That was all supposed to be completed by this summer, but i'm not sure if it was. Also, Pine Cove, bought Criar Creek camps, which is closer to Houston and have made it into a family cmap.

May 31 2002, 05:49 PM
Don't let this thread go away while DG'ers for Lucy Red Dress is still up.

May 31 2002, 07:18 PM
I live in he DFW area and would love to play a round with you guys if we can find a time and a course. I am in seminary during the year. Since it is summer I have all sorts of free time to play.
I am the guy with the "DISCiples" shirts. They are my design through a local maker. If anyone wants me to get some made or to e-mail the design just let me know.
May God's peace rule your life.

May 31 2002, 10:39 PM
Hey Rhett ... /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 01 2002, 12:08 AM
Dixon....Howdy, Brother! Coming to you live from KCWO! I'd like to get my hands on a few of those shirts, please. I will get in touch.

Jun 01 2002, 12:34 AM
thou shall not steal my DISCiples idea......sure....coincidence or...

Pizza God
Jun 01 2002, 01:18 PM
Talked to my brother-in-law yesterday as we played Jimmy Porter, he is interested if you guys want to form a club. He is now employed full time at Los Colinas Baptist Church and will be going to seminary school soon.

I would also like to see a club formed. I would like to play with a group of guys that don't cuss, drink or smoke durring casual play.

Jun 01 2002, 01:23 PM
I would like to play with a group of guys that don't cuss, drink or smoke durring casual play.

Me too. But can we do it without anybody ramming jesus down my throat, too? <FONT SIZE="-2">is there such a thing as a "serious smiley"?</FONT>

Jun 01 2002, 11:53 PM
I just sent an email to people who showed an interest in getting together on occasion with other Christian disc golfers for a few rounds of disc golf. The people who showed interest are mainly from the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. Still waiting to hear from people in the great city of Waco!!!!!!

Jun 02 2002, 02:03 AM
/clipart/happy.gif Just Lurking./clipart/proud.gif

Jun 04 2002, 09:21 PM

Was that a troll or are you serious? If you are serious, then I am sorry that some misguided Christians have left a "bad taste in your mouth". Christ didn't bust the door down, or bang on it, saying "Let me in". He said, to paraphrase, "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears me and opens the door, I will come in". Someone yelling, "If you don't have Jesus, you are going to Hell" may be technically correct, but I doubt that approach is winning many souls to the Kingdom.

If I ever get off my duff, I don't intend for this group to have any litmus test for membership, but I also would like anyone (myself included) to feel free to discuss with other men how to balance our priorities, what the events of the day mean from a Christian world view, other "rational thinker" discussion, and maybe even have a little accountability. All would be welcome, but there would be ground rules about language, alcohol, smoking, etc.

Do you think that would be a reasonable start?

Jun 04 2002, 09:43 PM
I'm serious. I don't drink, smoke, or praise Allah. I'm a spirtualist at heart, higher-powered by something that can't be found in any of man's fiction. I like disc golf and I like to obey the law. <FONT SIZE="-2">Frequently, though, I'm forced to urinate in public while golfing. What a dilemma.</FONT>

I have to say that given the choice of playing with dope smoking or playing with Bible thumping, I'll warm up at the practice basket a little while longer and wait for someone else to come by. If you participate in either on your time and can refrain from it during our round, though, I'll be glad to play with you. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 04 2002, 11:39 PM
Cool thread. Just wanted to say I'm a Christian disc golfer. I love God, and I love disc golf. BTW Rhett, I appreciate an honest answer, and thank you for your positive input to disc golf.

Jun 05 2002, 12:19 AM
...but if you'd read Matthew 3:16, you'd know that you're destined for <FONT COLOR="ff0000">����</FONT>.

Jun 05 2002, 03:39 AM
all three zealots with differing must be the sign of the apocalypse that we were told of..........just hope armageddon doesn't start until august....i have alot of up front money out on am worlds /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 05 2002, 04:28 AM
Rhett, with a, as Bill put it, "Bad taste in his mouth"./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Golly I could do a whole thread about that!

I'm with Rhett about the don't play with the thumpers, but I don't care if I play with stoners. I like hazin them while they are stoned...Like while they putt I would say, "mmmmmm twinkies", or, "golly a snickers sure sounds good, but don't be thinkin about that while you putt." Stoners don't mind being picked on as much as Bible Beaters.

Jun 05 2002, 11:18 AM
A quandry--- What if you're a believer that is not a "Thumper". What if your a believer, and a stoner... and a smoker. I guess that I would not qualify for the ground rules. "I have sinned and fall short"..sorry, misquote, my mistake, "ALL have sinned and fall short..."
Let me know if the bar for membership is lowered to include the rest of the believers in the midst. Even smoking stoners can fathom the insights of the Word. You might be surprised. I have degree(minor) in Theology and have copies of all the "published" Dead Sea Scrolls; ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, Mesopotamian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Chaldean, Egyptian manuscripts. Even a sinner like me, might have something to add to the group.
From a Non-Bible Banging believer,

Jun 05 2002, 12:37 PM
I think that the restrictions that Bryan mentioned stated "durring casual play".

If both ends of the spectrum could refrain for a few hours, and behave in a truly civil manner, all should be able to get along.

Though the discussions of balancing priorities could be very interested in such a mixed group.

Jun 05 2002, 12:49 PM
Personally, I think that the length and breadth of diversity among those who play DG is standing tribute to its universal appeal.

If I'm in a group where behavior is tolerated that I cannot condone, I simply let them play ahead. Just like in real life - you pick the fish you swim with, and it's a bi-i-i-i-i-ig ocean.

- baz

Jun 05 2002, 04:28 PM
Very good, bazillion. Except when you are in a tourney where that happens.

Must be time for a "Disc Golfers for Disc Golf" thread about now.


Jun 05 2002, 06:44 PM
As you know, I stand a good chance of playing with stoners every time I go out the the course! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif I even gave you a hard time about your "behaviour", not because you were "sinning", but about the possible ramifications of your behaviour in the parking lot on the reputation of the course and possible actions by the Park Dept, and it all came down to how we defined "discreet".

All, sometimes we think we are being discreet because we cannot see anyone around that could be observing or "olifactorating" our behaviour, but the possibility always exists that your behaviour could be noted. Please consider this when you conduct your behaviour on the course, even in the woods.

I have never left a group because they have started partaking. Like dgd said, it can be fun to razz them a little. They just have the misfortune of having their bad habits more visible at the course than I do. We indeed ALL have sinned and fallen short of God's perfection.

As strange as this may seem to non-believers, the God of the Bible loves me no more than Hitler, and if Hitler did truly accept Christ before he died, then he would end up in heaven, but we would enter as one who escaped a fire with only the clothes on his back. He would have no storehouse of treasure to use to give glory to God, which is our ultimate purpose for living.

DGer for DG,


Jun 05 2002, 09:53 PM
Anyone that makes it without anything are welcome to stay in my tent with me. We will be lacking for nothing except prizes. I guess I'm a true amateur Christian! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 05 2002, 09:59 PM
Bill, you just invoked Godwin's law ( which ends this discussion.

Jun 05 2002, 10:27 PM

Good point about Hitler. But in your penultimate sentence I wonder if there is a typo. Should " heaven, but WE would enter as one..." have the WE changed to HE? It would then read " heaven, but HE would enter as one..." With the context that would seem to make more sense. Just curious.


Jun 05 2002, 10:53 PM
That is sweet. Bill's point about Hitler just made every atheist or agnostic feel even better about their belief (or lack thereof).

Jun 05 2002, 11:46 PM
Kinda like a cigarette before the execution? /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 06 2002, 02:03 AM
God love Bill. I can't help but to wonder why Hitler gets such a bad rap? Whenever someone bad or someone doing something bad it usually ends up with a Hitler or a Nazi remark. Like I said before He was a goofy dude but HIGHLY motivated and brought his country out of poverty. Sure he MIGHT have overstepped rationalism but he was a good man for a while, right? Let those without sin cast the first stone! Now quit pickin on stoners and pick on the thumpers!!!/msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Jun 06 2002, 02:28 AM
Mark, Hitler totally ruined the German economy. He printed money to cover debts. Prices in German shops were all written with chalk on blackboards because inflation could drive up prices hour to hour. Then they got the bright idea of seizing both physical and liquid assets of a wealthy portion of the German population (Jews). And we all know how that ended. Very, very sick.


Jun 06 2002, 02:31 AM
From Deuteronomy - Bezer in the wilderness on the plateau for the Reubenites, and Ramoth in Gilead for the Gadites, and Golan in Bashan for the Manassites.

How much clearer can it be! It's hilarious.


Jun 06 2002, 03:36 AM
i liked my post from last night better than anyones except wimms 8:53pm post /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Jun 06 2002, 11:58 AM

I am familiar with Godwin's Law from my usenet days. I didn't work.../msgboard/images/clipart/sad.gif

Jun 07 2002, 02:25 AM
any of you live in the Cali veterans park area?
would love to play some Golf and do some bible study with anyone looking to improve their Relationship with God. and improve their Game.

Jun 07 2002, 12:41 PM
Gilbert -

I'll be out at Veterans at 1:30 on Saturday and if you're there we can play a round or two or three.

- baz

Aug 31 2002, 09:50 AM
A question for Ag Prov. Would you please clarify about a Bible verse that you referred to?

You said:
...but if you'd read Matthew 3:16, you'd know that you're destined for ����. (By Agent Provocateur on Tuesday, June 04, 2002 - 11:19 pm/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

But in my Bible Matt 3:16 says "And when Jesus had been baptized, just as He came up from the water, suddenly the heavens were opened to Him and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on Him." What was your point again?

Aug 31 2002, 09:52 AM
Also see this older thread
PDGA DISCussion: Miscellaneous: Christian Pros

Aug 31 2002, 02:36 PM
The last we thing we need in the current world situation is more arguments about religion.

Let the thread die. I won't try to tell you the Bible is a work of fiction and you don't try to Ram jesus down my throat.

Aug 31 2002, 03:53 PM

Aug 31 2002, 06:55 PM
Praise Ed! /clipart/happy.gif

Aug 31 2002, 11:37 PM

I'm truly sorry if anyone has tried to ram Jesus down your throat. However I can assure you that the Bible is not a work of fiction. Jesus changes lives as He has mine. God is my Father whom I know well. You were starting an argument by your insulting remark.

Sep 01 2002, 12:07 AM
You are delusional. You can worship God but don't worship a man. Jesus was a man. He's dead. There is a name for the phychological state that allows people to believe that other humans can be God, people like Jesus or David Koresh or Jim Jones. The believers call it faith, but the phychiatrists call it insanity. Jesus was a man and he died long ago. Get over it. He's never coming back. He's dead.

Sep 01 2002, 12:30 AM
No actually Lowe, you're starting an argument. Rhett's comment was an olive branch, albeit a barbed one. And Morgan's just being a prick and joining your argument. Why can't you guys grow up and take it someplace else. Mmmmkay?

Sep 01 2002, 12:49 AM
Morgan, don't be an idiot. People can worship anything they want to. Dead people, ants, an unseen alien, crystals, live people that are going to be dead and so on.

Most people that worship Jesus believe that he is alive in Heaven. An act of God. They also believe that they are going to Heaven when they die. Another act of God. It is no more preposterous than applying value to rational thought while the only thing certain is death. Death and ceasing to exist is nothing. Nothing can't exist. Why? Because there is something. Why? Because we exist. Why? No reason at all. But boy, we sure like to reason!

Me? If I'm going to believe in something other than dieing, I'm going to believe in the best dang thing I or anyone else can come up with. It's gotta be perfect. No flaws. None for you. None for me. None for anyone. If it's flawed, forget it. Just another piece of anything. Could be...maybe way to prove it.

I have just that. A perfect religion. It's so perfect it's not a religion. The best thing anyone could possibly come up with. What am I supposed to do? I'll keep it a secret until you ask me to "ram" it down your throat! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Pizza God
Sep 01 2002, 02:21 AM
Actually, when we die, we will rise up out of our body. You will be able to see what is going on in the room. You will feel compelled to leave after a while. Some people go and see other people that are not there and try to comfort them when they realize they are dead.

Eventually, we all will go to what is considered the tunnel. At the end of that journey we will meet up with familiar faces from our life we just lived. You may even meat up with pets, and other familiar faces from other past lives.

You next go to what would be considered a debriefing room. It is there that you will go over your life with your guide. You will go over what you learned. You will also eventually join the rest of your "sole" A part of you never leaves this place. After a while you will decide to go back a life experience. You may pick someone a lot different than what you were in the past. You may choose to have a life like you just had so you can improve or learn what you didn't learn in your past lives.

Your guide helps you with these choices. Sometimes you will choose a life to help a friend. When you are here you don't even realize that you are doing that. Your guide helps influence what choices you make.

If you study this stuff, everything makes sense in the world.

Almost all of us don't remember this stuff. It is not really allowed. When you are a baby you may still remember you're past lives, but as you grow older you forget. Your human mind overpowers or can't comprehend what your sole knows.

This is all based on Fact. I am sorry, but the bible was written by man many years after the fact. Stories change over time. 400 years the story is going to change quite a bit. There for the Bible is not really fact, only based on what people remember being told down the generations. Is there a GOD. There very well could be. God may be a collective of everyone thinking as one. The best way I could explain this is the Collective from DS9.

The only fact we know for sure is that when we die, we will know everything.

Pizza God
Sep 01 2002, 02:25 AM
There is always this theory.

We were designed by Aliens. They are here watching us all the time. They check up on there experiment to see what we are doing. They don't want to guide us much so they don't contact us but on a few occasions

Here's the deal. These "Aliens" were experimenting with DNA. They wanted a large experiment so they picked a whole planet to use. Only thing was that this planet was covered with water.

So they blew up one side of the planet. This created a crevice that most of the water flowed to. There was then land on one side of the planet.

Now they could conduct there experiments. Fist they made plants. Very large plants. Then animals. Very Large animals. As they got better they started to make other animals like warm blooded furry creatures.

They then did the unthinkable. They created something in there own image. Adam. And using part of him created a mate, Eve. At first the Aliens were in constant contact with these creations. But they ****** them off. Kicked them out of there garden.

Over the years (1000 of years) the Aliens contacted us. The talked to Moses, they sent Jesus down to help guide us when they didn't like where we were going. They even talked to Mohammad. Every religion is based on our ignorance of not understanding them. In 1000s of years there were several different religions. They may still be talking to people. They still may be guiding us. They may even interfere in our lifetime.

It all remains to be seen.

Pizza God
Sep 01 2002, 02:28 AM
I think I listen to Coast to Coast to much/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Art Bell Rules!!!

Sep 01 2002, 02:33 AM
i used to just wonder about you a little bit with some of your posts...but now i am sure /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif......
you should stick to running pizza places,texas disc golf schedules and the mr.jim's carrollton open /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 01 2002, 04:29 AM
Randy, I am asking you to ram it down my throat. Please, ram it baby.

Sep 01 2002, 09:58 AM
"Then they got the bright idea of seizing both physical and liquid assets of a wealthy portion " ... Hitler was Robin Hood

"Jesus changes lives as He has mine." people can say the same about alcohol... or weed ... or crack ... or disc golf.. we all have our demons.

wow... thank goodness for this thread on a busy dg weekend /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 01 2002, 12:41 PM
You guys are sick and need mental help/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif just live life using your conscience as a guide and it will all work out for the best /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Most of all be happy in everything you do !!!

Pizza God
Sep 01 2002, 01:23 PM
Kieth, I think I was in the sun to much yesterday.

Sep 02 2002, 01:06 AM
Lowe, I'm happy for you. But insisting that I have to either take Jesus as my personal savior or else burn for eternity in hell in an insulting remark. It's like picking a fight. We have enough religious idiots picking fights in this world right now.

Sep 02 2002, 01:38 AM
Rhett, here is something we can agree on!


Sep 02 2002, 02:14 AM
Any disc golfers for Jah, mon? No fuss, no fight.
I and I feel irie!

Sep 02 2002, 12:31 PM
One Love...

Sep 02 2002, 02:12 PM
Let's get together and feel alright...

Sep 02 2002, 06:39 PM
I toss them
Gods Awesome

Sep 02 2002, 07:54 PM
Lowe wrote:
" A question for Ag Prov. Would you please clarify about a Bible verse that you referred to?"

I wish someone had called me on that two months ago when I wrote it. Obviously the verse I mentioned was the wrong one, and now I have no idea what I was talking about.

Sep 02 2002, 08:33 PM

Sep 02 2002, 09:32 PM
hmmm, maybe Matt 6:5-6. but I'm not even sure that's what I intended in my June post. I'll keep researching.

Sep 03 2002, 01:53 AM
i don't think lowe cares anymore ..he is too busy ripping me on another thread /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 03 2002, 03:27 AM
10 reasons beer is better than religion.

1) No one will kill you for not drinking beer.
2) Beer doesn't tell you how to have sex.
3) Beer has never caused a major war.
4) They don't force beer on minors who can't think for themselves.
5)When you have beer, you don't knock on people's doors trying to give it away.
6) Nobody's ever been burned at the stake, hanged, or tortured over their brand of beer.
7) You don't have to wait more than 2000 years for a second beer.
8) There are laws saying that beer labels can't lie to you.
9) You can prove you have a beer.
10) If you've devoted your life to beer, there are groups that can help you.

Sep 03 2002, 09:35 AM
Everybody must believe in something, and I believe I'll have another beer.

Oh by the way #2 above is does tell you how to have sex. It tells you to do it on the floor.

Sep 03 2002, 10:16 AM
My story...
At Am Worlds in Nashville I had a junior caddying for us because someone stole his entry fee. I was explaining to him that the most important lesson he will ever learn from me is that the Holy Spirit lives within us and that we must learn to listen to Him. Whenever we go against His advice, we are headed to destruction. I told him that God's Spirit is with me at all times and even helps me in disc golf. I explained that sometimes I will reach for a disc, and the Spirit says, "Nope, use the stratus!" etc.. Anyway, a person in our group was teeing off and threw poorly, turned to us, and said, "I should have listened to my Spirit!" I turned to the junior and told him that I guess I am not the only person who believes. This person was a friend of "Kevin" from Texas who eventually won the Am Masters division that year and at the tourney main dinner, I was honored to meet him and discuss how Jesus has changed our lives.
Now, for those that this post is freaking out, because they have seen me swear or get upset while playing, it doesn't mean I am not a sinner, but Jesus Christ died for my sins, and I have believed that without any doubt since 1974...


Sep 03 2002, 01:16 PM
Every round is a good round when you thank God for giving you the day and this sport to enjoy. I do this before every tournament and even when I play like I don't know how to throw, I get a smile across my face.

Sep 03 2002, 02:53 PM
It's good to know that God has solved all the problems with the world like starvation, crime, and corruption, so he has time to advise Thomas on disc selection.

Sep 03 2002, 03:52 PM
AP, you just keep studying that Bible and it will all make sense! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 03 2002, 04:23 PM
Well, I tried to, but I'm really confused about the talking snake, people living for 600 years, and a man that was able to make a boat out of wood that could hold two of every kind of animal and survive at sea for a year.

Sep 03 2002, 04:59 PM
Yeah. And that's nothing compared to you and I stepping out of this void and into perfect. I don't know about you, but perfect aint gonna be perfect very long with me stepping into it.

I think all that funny stuff in the Bible is intended to get you to use your imagination.

Sep 03 2002, 06:36 PM

Your comments on Saturday, August 31, 2002 - at 08:07 pm were a blessing to me. Thanks. I mean that sincerely.

But I have to respectfully disagree with you that Jesus was not just a man, and He's not dead. He's alive. Jesus' resurrection from the dead is a historical fact and one of the pillars of the Christian faith. Christians don't base their faith on doctrine alone, but on historical evidence.

Sep 03 2002, 06:53 PM
"Historical evidence" that is contained in one book that proclaims itself to be the word of God, is that right Lowe, or is there other "historical evidence" that I'm not aware of?

It's amazing how many contradictions ( there are in the different accounts of the resurrection. Doesn't inspire me to accept it as historical fact.

Sep 03 2002, 08:02 PM
what is pbuh?

Sep 03 2002, 08:22 PM
Peace (or Praise) Be Unto Him.

I don't know why the author of that page used that so much, I guess it's sarcastic.

Sep 03 2002, 08:39 PM
Point of clarification (just for posterity) for AP: the bible is actually a collection of many books, Jim, not _one_ book.

Sep 03 2002, 09:05 PM
Correct Rick, and yes I knew that. In fact, depending if you are protestant or Catholic, the number of books varies.

So which one is correct?

Sep 03 2002, 09:28 PM
Or Jewish! You stop at like the half-way point if you are Jewish.

Sep 03 2002, 09:28 PM
Or Mormon. You add another one if you are Mormon.

Sep 03 2002, 11:51 PM
Jim, are you suggesting that there is a "correct" number of books? Why or why not?

Also, you seemed to be inferring that the historicity of the bible was in doubt since it was only "one book." If you knew that it was more than one book, then what was your point?

BTW Jim - There is more variation in books considered canonical than just the Apocryphal books accepted by the Roman church (although that is the variation most are familiar with). Samarian churches, Ethiopian churches, and some Eastern Orthodox churches have a different view on the books which are canonical.

Rhett - Although the first Christians were Jews, there were obviously a great number of Jews which did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah and, therefore, do not recognize the new covenant or new testament documents. They still stick to the Torah. The Torah is the 39 books that christians refer to as the Old Testament (likely not originally 39 books, as some have been combined through the ages).

And, Rhett, you are correct... LDS recognize yet another book (the Book of Mormon). In 1823 Joseph Smith had a vision which told him of gold tablets which contained alleged religious and historical records of early Americans (from 2200 BC to 421 AD). Smith produced the tablets in 1827 and in 1830 they were interpreted and published as the Book of Mormon.

FYI - covenant is an agreement/treaty between two or more parties. Testament is the documentation of the covenant.

Phew, that was long. Where do I send my bill? :-)

Sep 04 2002, 12:32 AM
The thing that bothers me about the whole religion thing is this - if you sit a hardcore Christian, a hardcore Jew, a hardcore Muslim, a hardcore Hindu, and a hardcore atheist around a table to have a discussion, only one of us will admit the possibility that their particular view could be wrong. Of course, they are the same one that will ask for evidence. Faith and the various holy books are not evidence of anything more than their own existences.

The sad reality of the whole thing is that it's going to take religion as long to die as it has to evolve to the level it has today. Too many brainwashed individuals without the ability to think for themselves continue to brainwash the next generation and so on and so on. Fortunately, a few more of us every generation realize the absurdity and the inconsistency of the philosophical framework of religions and the trend is being slowed somewhat.

All religions are evil and inherently dangerous to mankind. For every decent thing they claim to have done, I can show you 10 things they have damaged or destroyed. Humans have used their religions to justify countless horrors throughout the ages. They continue to do so today. Every major religion has terror groups that think they are doing their god's work by destoying innocent lives. I, for one, am tired of it and wish I was going to live long enough to see humanity get a clue.

If all you Christians and Jews and Muslims (and whatever else is out their) think your heavens and afterlives are so great, why don't you all kill yourselves and get off my planet? It would be a better place without you.

Sep 04 2002, 12:42 AM
Sure there are plenty of "religous" people that claim the name of God for terrible things. And there are plenty of people with your particular, atheist I'm guessing?, who do just as many terrible things. I think that at least christians are trying to live up to some sort of ideal of good. What is the average atheist trying to live up to?

Sep 04 2002, 12:51 AM
Goodbye cruel world!! /clipart/happy.gif or /clipart/sad.gif ? "meister"

Sep 04 2002, 01:01 AM
In the context of disc golf, my story, like my faith, is pretty simple. I achieved two World Championships in four years but was not particularly happy. I have now played many years at the bottom of the pack, but I am happy. The difference is Jesus. He helped me change me. The really neat part was that I got to choose.

Take care,

Harold Duvall

Sep 04 2002, 01:30 AM
I guess the kiddin' around is pretty much over. I guess it's just a matter of Pumpin About Fifteen thousand gallons of water down there.,To teach you a little lesson, about Morality, And the way to live , in a decent society. So!! I got that goin' FOR me. Which is nice! But I have yet to receive "Total Consciesness" /clipart/happy.gif

Pizza God
Sep 04 2002, 01:57 AM
I still like the idea that we were made by aliens. Of course I always thought that the Aliens could be us from the future.

Actually (FACT) you can chose to go to another planet for a life experence. There is more than one.

The one problem that I can not explain is that as you gain life experences, you move up the latter of experence. You may become a Guide, then you help others. (could a guide be a Gardian Angel) When you "graduate" you go to a place that is very hard to understand.

A new "sole" is usually white. As you gain experence you turn different colors. The place you are working to is a deep purple. BUT when you go there, you no longer have life experences so we don't know what it is. Could it be that you become a part of "god" some think so.

As has been proven several times. The Bible is written by MAN, 400 years after the fact. It does not even include everything that it should. (Dead Sea Scrolls)

Religion is a good thing. Except to the extreems. There is no reason to bash someone who asked you if you know Jesus. Just say yes and they will not pester you.

I have a copy of the Book Of Moron, but have never taken the time to read it. When I went to the Tabernacle (spe??) I asked what happend to the Golden tablets. They said God took them back. HA, how conveniant.

Sep 04 2002, 03:41 AM
couldn't leave it alone could you jim /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif
now this will live for another week or so

Sep 04 2002, 07:24 AM
More murders have been commited by atheists than all religions combined. Mao was an atheist, so was Stalin, so was Hitler. Those 3 atheists alone killed more people than all religious zealots combined.

Sep 04 2002, 09:16 AM
Dogmatic religiosity ....

According to Boyer, �everyone has certain innate conceptual templates hard-wired into our brains from years of evolutionary development, and these concepts are susceptible to being attached to religious ideas� (2001).

Studies show that religious concepts are passed down, generation-to-generation, culture-to-culture. Boyer states that �once supernatural concepts become attached to certain naturally occurring conceptual templates in our brains, it becomes very difficult, though not impossible, to separate them� (2001). Therefore, to make a positive difference in the world one must reach out and educate those not already rooted in their particular faith (Boyer 2001).

Jennifer Drouin contends that it should be �obvious that Christianity has committed a serious crime in that it has severely limited the development of humanity over the past two thousand years, especially the development and equality of women� (1998).

She states that much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament is nothing more than a "handbook for the subjugation of women". She goes on to say that Christianity abuses the natural, human fear of death in order to maintain its authority over the general populace.

Furthermore, it promotes women as "wanton, devious, unclean, treacherous, ignorant, and singularly responsible for the sins of the world" (1998). Since the public�s ignorance is Christianities greatest weapon, Drouin suggests that women must make the general public aware of the disgusting past of this dangerous, dogmatic institution. It is time for women to stand up and openly defy the most powerful organization in the history of their suppression (Drouin, 1998).

New research, by evolutionary psychologist Dr. Adam Brown, presents a direct correlation between religious dogmatism and an inadequate working memory (2001).

This research shows that many people are not capable of evaluating the amount of information needed to compare different religious belief-systems because of an insufficient working memory, so they simply imprint their first religious impressions for life. And, since they lack the necessary cognitive equipment to adequately compare the data, their first impression becomes an absolute, their �holy� truth.

This reinforces Boyer�s theory of cognitive conceptual templates, and may lead to a possible cure for religiosity, much like other diseases that are genetically linked, such as Alzheimer�s, Huntington�s or even ADHD.

Yet, this too will be a long and difficult up-hill struggle. Meanwhile, as long as our society stays rooted in the might-is-right values of monotheism, we will continue to have violence in all aspects of our self-righteous society.

Works Cited

Boyer, Pascal, The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought, Basic Books, New York, NY 2001.

Brown, Adam M, Religious Dogmatism and Working Memory, SUNY at Albany, 2001

Drouin, Jennifer, The Role of Xianity in the Oppression of Women, ( 1998

Sep 04 2002, 09:26 AM
"More murders have been committed by atheists than all religions combined. Mao was an atheist, so was Stalin, so was Hitler. Those 3 atheists alone killed more people than all religious zealots combined."


take an honest look at the history of the monotheism � it makes Mao and Stalin look like saints!

Today, I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord. (Adolf Hitler, Reichstag speech, 1936)

Sep 04 2002, 09:29 AM
Some good posts. Some bad posts.

Lumping people together in categories. It's one of the more terrible things done by man.

Atheist? I've known some very nice people that were atheists.

Christians? Same thing.

The rough part is the word Christian. It's like saying the word music. There's lots of different kinds. Do you like music? Yeah! What kind? Country Western. Oooooh, I hate that kind!

It is men that have made the differences.

I have accepted the fact that Jesus is my saviour. I have accepted the fact that He saved me from not being able to go to Heaven. I can sit with anyone, from any belief. I am there to let them know what I know. If they want to know what I know, all they have to do is accept the fact that they are in. The only way I know to accept the fact that you are in, is true Christianity.

Not knowing that you are in, does not mean that you are not in. You simply don't know that you are. If you don't know...then I don't know.

Anyway, I love talking to people of other faiths and atheists. Living forever in perfect with the one who created you and loves you (more than you could ever love anything), is plenty to talk about it.

And Jim, you're right. There are many contradictions in the Bible. In fact, the whole thing is one big contradiction. It's the whole point. Jesus wasn't killed by atheists. The heads of the God of the Bibles religion demanded his death. What kind of moron would make up that story and try to push it?

One of the biggest accusations against Jesus was that he hung with the sinners and didn't follow the rules set down by God's religion. Whoever made that part up was pretty cool. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 04 2002, 10:47 AM
I want on the pray list for this club!

Sep 04 2002, 12:05 PM
You're gonna need it while reworking your tpads. I always liked your tpads!

Sep 04 2002, 12:47 PM
Harold Duvall - I was encouraged by your post. Thanks. Your life backs up your message.

Sep 04 2002, 12:50 PM
Michael Brown - Why should anyone believe the dogmatic statements of Boyer, Brown, and Drouin?

Sep 04 2002, 01:09 PM
"All religions are evil and inherently dangerous to mankind."

Tell that to the 1.9 million children around the world who have food, shelter, clothing and medical assistance because of the generosity of the people who support World Vision.

Or to the 4.6 million children receiving similar assistance from the Christian Children's Fund.

<a href=" (" target="_blank"></A></a>

Clearly, some religions, like Stalin's Communism and bin Laden's Islam, are inherently dangerous to mankind. Any religion which teaches that it is permissible and even honorable to kill anyone who won't join is evil and dangerous. I don't see the evil and danger in religion which motivates believers to feed, clothe and educate the poor, and help them find the means to lift themselves out of their poverty.

Sep 04 2002, 01:11 PM
Lowe - it's called scientific research

the same kind of stuff that shattered the Religious belief that the world was flat ...

we all know the earth isn't flat .. don't we?

Sep 04 2002, 01:40 PM
It's kinda flat where I am. It's not spinning around either. And the people on the other side of the world aren't standing upside down. And there isn't another side. It's all one side. But there aren't any sides because it's close to being a sphere.

I can't see it all at one time. Well, I could if I had a giant mirror. Or if I tore it into funny pieces like a flat map of the world.

I don't need science or religion to prove to me that I will die. Even if a way is concocted to allow me to live forever in this place where matter and anti-matter coexist, it falls way to short to interest me, seeing as how all those that have died before me might as well not have existed at all.

No thanks. In spite of the idiot that I am, I am going to live forever with all the others who were created in God's image and everything is going to be perfect.

Until someone comes up with something better. Then I'll do that.

Sep 04 2002, 01:43 PM
Harold Duvall - look me up at the next major tourney your playing eh? Your posts are very encouraging.

I plan on playing in 2003 the KC Open in the spring, every major in Michigan and the World Championships in KC in July next year as well.

It amazes me the range of posts this thread has caused. Before I was born again I HATED people telling me I was dammed etc... Now I do the same thing that some stranger did for me. I pass out free Bibles and the book "The Cross and the Switchblade", and if you want either or both when ya see me, don�t be afraid to ask, I have cases and cases of them. What I do with my spare change... def. not my winnings!!!

Ps There are texts other then the Bible from the time of Christ that refer to Christ�s death and resurrection. Sorta like the newspapers of the time. Several authors, atheist to begin their studies, have been enlightened by trying to disprove Christ death and resurrection� you can find them on the web�..


Sep 04 2002, 02:06 PM
Many people place religion between themselves and that which they believe is greater (than themselves). I believe that religion should be a foundation to stand on, not a filter. The same goes for faith, hope and belief.

My opinion of science is that they can only study/modify life...they have yet to make a blade of grass from scratch, let alone a grass seed or a cellular component. Until science can escape quantitative theory and incorporate qualitative methods (without always trying to measure them) to compliment the former, we will only be observers...of life and consciousness. I still have faith!

There's room for forward thinking...I still have hope...cause I believe!!

Sep 04 2002, 02:10 PM
Bruce - that's about 6.5 million kids - roughly the same number of people who were killed by the Nazis for being Jewish.

We'll never know how many people were killed by the Crusades or the Inquisition.

We'll never no how far humanity could have advanced if the Catholic Church hadn't inflicted 1000 years of darkness on Western society.

We'll never know exactly how many native (South) Americans had to die instead of being converted to Catholicism.

How many people have been killed in Northern Ireland because they were not Protestant or Catholic?

How many people around the world are told daily (by Christian missionaries) that their religion is not good enough and they need to adopt the Christian mentality?

Any more fun facts about the good of religious organizations?

Sep 04 2002, 02:17 PM
Nothing like organization! I'm glad Jesus never organized. (keeping on topic)

Sep 04 2002, 02:23 PM
Tomcat, what particular texts are you referring to that make note of the death and resurrection? Are they really from that time or are they decades and decades after the fact like the New Testament?

Sep 04 2002, 03:12 PM
Thank you, RW!

I'm a Christian, but I don't consider myself "religious". The church I attend reports to no "convention", but each believer in my church (does my church have unbelievers in it? Sheesh....OF COURSE!) belongs to the "Church", the bride of Christ.

Any "religion" is still composed of fallible, fallen people who can make HUGE mistakes and sins all in the name of their "religion", but that does not invalidate their core beliefs. Their core beliefs need to be examined on their own merits.

There is a term used in orthodox Christianity called "Apologetics" I would like to respectfully submit ( for your or anyone else's perusal.

Much smarter minds then I (C. S. Lewis is an excellent example) have attempted to disprove or discredit Christianity, starting out as atheists or unbelievers, and ended up believing.

A discussion board is a terrible place to evangelize. There have been enough posts here to show someone who is seeking more knowledge about who Jesus (Y'shua) of Nazareth was, and the validity of His claims, that there are several of us that share the love of DG that he/she can contact for a more 1 on 1 dialog.

For instance, I don't believe that God can do anything! There are some things that God cannot do, and I didn't realize that until someone taught me.

I am hesitant at times to share my faith because I have done and continue to do "bad" things, and I don't want to soil the name "Christian", so people can point at me and call me a hypocrite at the very least, or say, "I'f he's an example of what it means to be a Christian, count me out!"
But God didn't say, "When you have cleaned up your act, then you can come to me, and I will keep you clean."

I urge you to start your own process of investigating Christianity, either to validate or invalidate it.

Was it the group Rush (Geddie Lee?) that said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"? Make a decision about Christianity, but do your best to make an informed decision.

I would be honored if anyone wants to email me privately about how they can start their investigation.

Sep 04 2002, 03:13 PM
T. Daniel Sellers: "The thing that bothers me about the whole religion thing is this - if you sit a hardcore Christian, a hardcore Jew, a hardcore Muslim, a hardcore Hindu, and a hardcore atheist around a table to have a discussion, only one of us will admit the possibility that their particular view could be wrong.

Interesting generalization that you feel free to make, there. Have you ever done this? I have in a manner of speaking. I know several of each group you have picked out that admit to the possibility of being wrong.

>>Of course, they are the same one that will ask for evidence.

Does this mean you have evidence that shows we should believe atheism as true?

>>All religions are evil and inherently dangerous to mankind.

That is a false statement that I doubt you can back up (unless you want to change the statement to "all philosophical outlooks have the capacity to be dangerous." In that case, I would agree.

However, it proves nothing (other than the fact that mankind can screw up anything), and that we should be watchful and careful.

"No philosophy should be judged according to its misuse" - Augustine
I think Augustine is right. We should not judge naturalism or atheism by the acts of Mao or Stalin, nor should we judge Islam by the acts of al Qaeda, nor should we judge Christianity by the acts of the Inquisition or the Crusades.

If you want an answer to the question of "who is right?" among the groups that you felt free to include in lump sum generalizations... then I suggest listing and defining each philosophy, then come to a conclusion by logically examing each and see which comes out the best.

Sep 04 2002, 03:14 PM
"We'll never no how far humanity could have advanced if the Catholic Church hadn't inflicted 1000 years of darkness on Western society."

If you want to see how far we would have advanced without western civilization, of which the Catholic Church was a the prime influence until the last 200 years or so, compare rural Europe 2000 years ago with rural Persia and rural India 2000 years ago. The Persians and the Hindus were a little bit ahead. Make the same comparison today, but pack your own water and toilette paper.

Sep 04 2002, 04:45 PM
Love the "God tells me which disc to throw" post. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 04 2002, 06:56 PM
Interesting thread. One of the most uncomfortable tournament moments I recall was when a player from Utah was swearing up a blue storm and ripping Mormons while he spoke to the TD, who unbeknownst to the player was a devout Mormon. There's some irony in there somewhere. TD didn't rip back but was kind.

Whether witnessing, listening, or replying, tolerance is for-sure in order. I like Rhett's comments about no throat cramming. Whether you are a witness for Christ or a devout agnostic, or follow the god of peanut butter, or whatever, be willing to answer questions and share information, and demonstrate your faith by your actions and example. And let other folks believe what they want.

Those who witness in public should understand that invites public scrutiny and reply. That's life.

If your religious convictions lead you to enforce the rules of the game within the workings of the system, more power to you. No rules = no game. Ignoring certain rules sometimes chases our 'God-fearing' friends away from what should be an inclusive sport.

Pizza God
Sep 04 2002, 11:55 PM
You all should bow down before me /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 05 2002, 12:28 AM
I have blood in my pants Chuck.

Sep 05 2002, 01:25 AM
Thank you, Steve.

Sep 05 2002, 02:22 AM
I like George Carlins take on organized religion:

They want us to believe there is a invisable man living up in the sky.

Who gave us these 10 comandments to live by and if we did'nt follow his word.

We are sure going to live eternally in a Big <FONT COLOR="ff0000">FIRERY PIT</FONT>................But,

He loves us...../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

<FONT COLOR="119911">Blessed Be</FONT>

Sep 05 2002, 03:07 AM
I have asked hundreds of people whether it is possible that they are wrong. When one of them admits they could be wrong, 90% of the time, it is an atheist. Most Christians, Muslims and Jews I have asked will not even admit the potential exists that they could be wrong. (Although some have, my experience has shown them to be the exception rather than the rule.) Dogma is bad and inherently dangerous to the human condition. Conditions change and we must adapt, technologically and philosophically. We are trying to deal with 21st century technology and modern problems with philosophical systems that are thousands of years old in some cases. This is why I think religion is evil and dangerous.

Atheism is a non-belief. Since atheists make no claims other than there are no gods, they have nothing to prove. Any college sophomore that has had logic knows that the burden of proof lies with the one who says something exists. One doesn't say this exists, disprove it. One says this exists and here is the proof. The believer is responsible for evidence, not the non-believer.


From the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the beginnings of the Renaissance, the Catholic Church held sway in Europe. Depending on which dates one uses for the start of the Renaissance, this gives one a period of roughly 1000 years. During this time, the conditions of all but the privileged elite (Noblemen and Clergy) were wretched. Most of the people lived as serfs, who were, in essence, property or slaves for the elite. Scientific discovery was thwarted at every turn, most notably in the field of astronomy. Church dogma ruled the land. For 1000 years, nothing changed except the names of the participants.
The reason that western civilzation has outpaced India and Persia over the last 2000 years can be explained with the tremendous advances since secular governments have taken control of the western world back from the Church.

You are right about tolerance being in order. As an atheist I am tolerant every single day. I live in a world where 95% of the people profess belief in one diety or another and make far reaching decisions based on those beliefs. At some point people need to open their eyes and make decisions based on what we know with our perceptions, not what we blindly and prooflessly believe.

My goal here was not to offend anyone but to maybe open some eyes. I do not go around 'witnessing' or trying to convert people to atheism. (I think that any intelligent, rational thinking person will come to that conclusion on their own without my meddling.)
Sometimes I just get terribly upset with the mentality that religious people have regarding the spreading of their dogma. If they are going to spew their poison publicly, i'm going to call it what it is.

Sep 05 2002, 03:18 AM

Just so you'll know, Neil Peart wrote the lyrics for that Rush song, "Freewill." Geddy, while a great singer, has only written lyrics for 1 Rush song since Neil joined the band. It is ironic that you used that song because it is, in part, about being an atheist. The chorus is:

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will

Sep 05 2002, 07:36 AM
Hey Daniel ,your statement "there are no gods" accurately portrays the "atheists" worldview. That qualifies as a dogmatic belief. We are all believers in something, including you.

Sep 05 2002, 08:25 AM
One of Boyer's "certain naturally occurring conceptual templates in our brains" is the instinct to have a king. People lived in tribes for 100,000 years and every tribe had a king. We developed an **instinct** to worship other people and call them kings.

In religion, the instinct to worship your king was perverted into thinking a person could be God. People think Elvis is king, they think Hendrix was God, they idolize Babe Ruth and Micky Mantle too much. People like to idolize and worship other people. I bet if King Climo came in the room everybody would bow down and grovel.

It's the same with Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, Moses, Mao, Hitler. There is too much kissing other people's [*****]. Stand on your own! Don't bow to anybody!! Kiss your own [*****].

Sep 05 2002, 08:48 AM
>All religions are evil and inherently dangerous to mankind

As an anti-theist I would re-word this to state:

Monotheism is inherently dangerous to all living things ..

The great flood �.

�And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.�
�And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.�
�And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth (sic) me that I have made them.�

were the little children wicked?
were the unborn babies wicked?
were the rabbits and the geese wicked?
Were the trees wicked?

No, what�s happened here, is that god�s all bummed out about flaws in his own creation,
but rather fix or repair it, he chooses to destroy it.

and what about the this senseless killing of the first born in all of Egypt
Once again the xtian god chooses to kill rather than use other options ..
I mean this is supposedly an omnipotent being �
he could have put the Egyptians to sleep while Moses led his people away�
he could have temporarily blinded the Egyptians while his people escaped.
Why he could have turned them into all into pink bunny rabbits,

but no he chooses to kill.

To solve all his problems he chooses to kill �

This what scares me so much about monotheists, They worshiping a creature who chooses to use barbaric violence instead of any of one a thousand alternatives, and worse yet, try to present it as good and noble.

�Oh, well they were wicked, then it�s ok to kill them.� We�re superior to them, they are �wicked�, to be crushed beneath our boots like termites.

This is the mind-set of the monotheist. It�s what drove more 400 years of �holy crusades�. It was the engine of the Inquisition, to cleanse the world of the �heretics�; burning the witches and unbelievers. It still drives the religious wars in Europe, Ireland, the mid-east and Asia today. It was the mindset of the Christian explorers as the butchered the Native Americans, the Incas and the Aztecs. It was the mindset of the Christians that ran the prisons camps in Nazis Germany. It is the mid-set of the KKK and the Fundamentalists as they use the Bible to persecute the blacks, Jews and Gays. And, it is the mind-set in mainstream Christianity today, as we bomb this filthy heathens in the middle-east and they, in return declare a Jihad (the holy war), with both sides screaming: �They are wicked, so it�s ok to kill them�.

This is very scary to me, particularly now with Bush trying to form stronger ties between church and state. How long before the moral police can start hunting down iconoclasts like myself, on order to cleanse our society of this �wickedness�. The mind-set is already in place it just needs a little nudge. Take a look at pre-war Germany. Hitler believed that the Jews were �wicked� and therefore �should be killed� (easy to arouse a mindset (kill the wicked) that was already available in his predominantly Christian country).

His quote from Mein Kampf: �Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord�

�Oh, but Jesus came in peace to save the world� some Christians say �

As Jesus clearly states in Mathew 10:34/35/36 � �Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. ""For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN HOUSEHOLD�.

Furthermore, the book of Revelation, the �final chapter� of the Christian bible, tells us that when the so-called �prince of peace� returns it will be with the Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the red horse of war; the black horse of famine and the pale horse of death. This will plunge the world into a thousand years of war and destruction. This apocalyptic mythology is marked by the conviction that God will intervene decisively in the present evil age and vindicate his suffering elect over their oppressors, raising the dead, consigning the wicked to eternal destruction, and establishing a new world in Heaven. In the Bible, apocalyptic elements are present in the books of Ezekiel, Isaiah, Joel, Zechariah, Daniel and Revelations.

The belief system of the Christian, the Jew and the Muslim, with their "divine moral codes", has been the major influence in promoting religious ethnocentrism, violence, sexism, culture imperialism and war for the past 1500 years. History sadly shows us fifteen centuries of these monotheistic religions brutally killing each other in the name of �God�, each perceiving the other as the �evil� that must destroyed so that the �good� might triumph. A never-ending struggle of violence and death, only finalized with the end of the world.

These are dooms-day cults, born of fear and superstition in the womb of the dark ages, and kept alive by greed, ignorance and an army of self-proclaimed clergy whose very livelihood depends on the continued preservation of bigoted intolerance.

Unfortunately laws or legislation cannot eradicate these types of �religious� groups. It has been tried unsuccessfully many times in the past yet these cults live on, spreading their poison ideologies like an incurable cancer. They could, however, be isolated from those who genuinely seek a long-lasting peaceful society. I suggest we �move� all the monotheists to the moon. Their �loving� Gods can provide for their worldly needs, and they can fight their unrelenting �holy� wars until finally both factions are finally eradicated, thus fulfilling their death-cult prophecies.


Sep 05 2002, 09:34 AM
Ok, twits. The fact is this:
This thread was started with the intention of someone finding people of like faith. From the beginning, non-believers feel compelled to stop the madness. I seriously doubt that any of the believers that are posting to this thread have intentions of forcing their religion on the PDGA. I know many of you are concerned with the Spanish Inquisition, but I have seen nothing in believers posts that would indicate such a movement.

On the other hand, I have read a few non-believers saying things like why don't you kill yourself and get off my planet. I have seen the "proofs", over and over which claim that these believers are stupid, ignorant and a danger to society.

The only difference between you and them is your venom. You are obviously trying to either change someones mind or make converts for your "religion".

You will change no believers mind. You have nothing to offer. I have news, you geniuses you. I know what you know. I'm here on this Earth too. I know all about it. Been to school. Been abroad. Spent my whole life talking to people of other beliefs and non-beliefs.

Everything that you know is nothing to me. There is no such thing as distance. There is no such thing as time. Everything that you cling to as reality is an illusion. But it's your reality. Enjoy it. Live life to it's fullest. You are no threat to me. I have no desire to force what I know upon you.

If you would ever like to know, drop me a line. I would prefer to talk on the phone. But until you truly have a desire to know something about what believers have, I think it would be becoming of you to cease your mission on this thread. It is intolerant and pointless.

If believers try to unite and force you to do anything at PDGA events, I will be the first in line to try and stop them.

Why don't you extend a little courtesy and let these people write to one another on the message board? At least wait until something is said that warrants your attack mode. I know you have to read about that which is so far beneath you.

Sep 05 2002, 09:41 AM
....but what about this blood in my pants....Chuck.

Sep 05 2002, 10:41 AM
"If believers try to unite and force you to do anything at PDGA events, I will be the first in line to try and stop them."

You mean like listen to their prayer at a mandatory players meeting?

Sep 05 2002, 01:38 PM
There is prayer at a players meeting? None that I have ever been to. Not that I am against it, but like Randy said, I am not into forcing my beliefs upon anyone... Heck, I would not of known some of the Christian golfers in Ann Arbor if I had not just started praising Jesus on a glorious day a few years back, only to have others agree and join in with me. Yet there are many reading this who didn't have a clue (sad in a sense) that I am a Christian, because I do not force the discussion on each passerby, but am ALWAYS willing to discuss Jesus Christ with anyone who wishes...

I also understand discussion boards and the multiple directions each thread takes, and try never to discourage freedom of speech, but am as interested as others to how a discussion of getting to meet other Christians gets to be �hate filled� at times�


Sep 05 2002, 01:45 PM
Sorta funny story I have to tell�

For those who do not know, I umpire ASA softball in Michigan in my �spare� time�

The other day I was asked to umpire a church leagues championship game, since they wanted to end the season on a �professional� note�( I know, �They asked TomCat??�)

Anyway, prior to the game they get together, both teams and say prayers, actually afterwards as well�. Should have seen the looks on the players faces when the umpire joined them in prayer� You would of thought I was Satan�. To say some players were a bit freaked out would have been an understatement� Hey! Umpires are people to!!


Sep 05 2002, 02:21 PM

I am sorry that you have never met a Christian that will be willing to say that their beliefs are falsifiable. But you don't need to go that far, the Bible says so itself in 1 Corinthians 15:19. "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men." Meaning that if there is no hope for believers after death then we are the saddest individuals to ever live. If you could prove, for instance, that the resurrection didn't happen I would have to surrender my hope of a God who can conquer death. But just as I stand here and offer this possibility to an atheist, they must be willing to explore Jesus' claims with an open mind and willingness to believe.

Sep 05 2002, 02:31 PM
Dreidel, Dreidel, Dreidel...i made it out of clay....

sorry wrong thread/msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 05 2002, 02:38 PM
Dixon, it is impossible to prove a negative. I can't prove that God doesn't exist, nor can I prove that Jesus was not resurrected. Likewise, you can't prove that Thor and Vishnu don't exist, or that the Muslim Allah is not the One True God.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one less God than you. When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods, you'll know why I dismiss yours." Stephen Roberts

Sep 05 2002, 02:45 PM

I have met a few Christians who admit they could be wrong. MOST of them are not willing to make this claim. As for me, I am open minded. Show me some proof of God's existence and I will follow Him as He desires. But, until that proof is forthcoming, I choose to believe in nothing. (As far as the god issue goes.)


It's not a dogmatic belief. I'll change in a heartbeat if you show me some proof. Could many of you Christians do the same? If I could present proof that there is no god, (even though this is logically NOT my burden) how many of you would be willing to change your minds? I'll bet the percentage of theists who would be willing to abandon their god because of proof of his non-existence is significantly smaller than the percentage of atheists who would accept god with some proof of his existence. Which group do you really think is more dogmatic?

Sep 05 2002, 02:47 PM
There was a mandatory players meeting at PDGA Worlds a few years ago that had a prayer involved. There was much discussion afterwards. Was that here or r.s.d.?

Sep 05 2002, 02:55 PM
Hey AP..

At the risk of ignorance in your eyes, who is Stephen Roberts?

While we're quoting people, here's one for you all... "I think, therefore I play disc golf with Jesus." Ryan Cooner /clipart/proud.gif

Sep 05 2002, 02:59 PM
There was also a prayer delivered during the mandatory player's meeting at the Alex Clark Memorial this past weekend. Two things to note; first, it was given by a local pastor who was invited by the Clark family (who was in attendance), and second, almost everyone in attendance joined in the "amen" at the end, without complaint.

Sep 05 2002, 03:14 PM
Rhett et al, there were at least two different r.s.d threads from at least two different years.


Sep 05 2002, 03:19 PM
Bam Bam, to be honest, I don't know; I just like the quote, and I wanted to properly attribute it. Here's his web page:

I assume you know who Mark Twain is?

"You believe in a book that has talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water, and all sorts of magical, absurd and primitive stories, and you say we are the ones that need help?"--Mark Twain

(I guess that should be corrected to be "several books", right?)

Sep 05 2002, 03:21 PM
Throuought biblical history the people have asked for and received proof of God's existence and yet still ask for more saying that the previous was not good enough. For instance, Pharoh's magicians (Exodus), Baal's priests (1 Kings), and most importantly Jesus' ressurection. Yet people still do not accept these as proofs. What more should God do when He went so far as to send His Son as proof of His existence and love for His people and we still refuse to accept Him?

Sep 05 2002, 03:31 PM
That makes sense, AP... and kudos to you for giving credit for the quote!

I would have to say that I'm somewhat familiar with Samuel Clemens, as well as from where his "nom de plume" originates. Not familiar enough with him to know his personal beliefs, however. I'm not sure I'm willing to take the leap in believing all that he wrote or spoke was truly from his heart, and not just words to elicit a particular response from his audience of the moment.

Sep 05 2002, 03:43 PM
Touce' Bam Bam. I'm not sure if it was intended or not, but that last sentence has meaning at many levels.

Dixon, those "proofs" are only accepted by those who also accept the bible is 100% true which brings us to the circular argument: God exists because the bible says so, and the bible is true because God says so.

I have a hard time getting past the "talking animals, wizards, witches, demons, sticks turning into snakes, burning bushes, food falling from the sky, people walking on water" people living in the belly of a whale, and people building huge wooden ships that can house every species of animal to walk, crawl and fly the earth.

Sep 05 2002, 03:47 PM
So throw out the Bible. How do you deal with the historical and archaeological evidences of the reality of Jesus and the apostles?

Sep 05 2002, 04:14 PM
Please show me these evidences. Can you refrence some books or websites?

And even if Jesus of Nazereth did exist, it doesn't mean he was the Son of God any more than you or me. I wonder what people will write about David Koresh in 500 years?

Sep 05 2002, 04:32 PM
There is a place in India that claims to be the location of Jesus' tomb.

Apparently during the "missing years" of Jesus' life, he studied eastern religions in India, etc. and learned a Hindu form of healing. According to the Hindi folk, Jesus never actually died on the cross, but went into a state of deep meditation similar to death and then healed himself in the tomb (no need for resurrection there). Spent the remainder of his "natural" life in India before eventually passing from natural causes.

Thousands of Hindis apparently visit his tomb every each their own I suppose.

Sep 05 2002, 04:33 PM
So even if I could prove that Jesus did exist it still wouldn't be sufficient? Doesn't that support my previous point?

Sep 05 2002, 04:41 PM
"I wonder what people will write about David Koresh in 500 years?"

A: David who?

Sep 05 2002, 05:31 PM
John Prine has something to say about jesus the missing years:

It was raining it was cold
West Bethlehem was no place for a twelve year old
So he packed his bags and he headed out
To find out what the world's about
He went to France he went to Spain
He found love he found pain
He found stores so he started to shop
But he had no money so he got in trouble with a cop
Kids in trouble with the cops from Israel didn't have no home
So he cut his hair and moved to Rome
It was there he met his Irish bride
And they rented a flat on the lower east side
Of Rome
Italy that is
Music publishers, book binders, bible belters,
Swimming pools, orgies and lots of pretty Italian chicks

Charley bought some popcorn
Billy bought a car
Someone almost bought the farm
But they didn't go that far
Things shut down at midnight
At least around here they do
Cause we all reside down the block inside
At 23 skidoo

Wine was flowing so were beers
So Jesus found his missing years
He went to a dance and said This don't move me
So he hiked up his pants and he went to a movie
On his thirteenth birthday he saw Rebel Without a Cause
He went straight on home and invented Santa Claus
Who gave him a gift
And he responded in kind
He gave the gift of love and went out of his mind

You see him and the wife wasn't getting along
So he took out his guitar and he wrote a song
Called The Dove of Love Fell off the Perch
But he couldn't get divorced in the Catholic Church
At least not back then anyhow
Jesus was a good guy he didn't need this [*****]
So he took a pill with a Coca-Cola and he swallowed it
He discovered the Beatles
He recorded with the Stones
Once he even opened up a three way package
For old George Jones

The years passed by like sweet little days
With babies crying pork chops and Beaujolais
When he woke up he was seventeen
The world was angry the world was mean
Why the man down the street and the kid on the stoop
All agreed that life stank all the world smelled like poop
Baby poop that is the worst kind

So he grew his hair long and threw away his comb
And headed back to Jerusalem to find mom, dad and home
But when he got there the cupboard was bare
Except for an old black man with a fishing rod
He said, Whatcha gonna be when you grow up?
Jesus said God
Oh my God what have I gotten myself into?
I'm a human corkscrew and all my wine is blood
They're gonna kill me Mama they don't like me Bud

So Jesus went to heaven and he went there awful quick
All them people killed him and He wasn't even sick
So come and gather around me my contemporary peers
And I'll tell you all the story
Of Jesus ... the missing years

Sep 05 2002, 06:01 PM
Thank you, AP...

The last statement was meant to have at least two meanings... for his particular time and place, and for certain folks in this particular time and place.

Any levels in addition to these two was purely coincidental, and I therefore cannot accept credit for them. /clipart/sad.gif

Sep 05 2002, 06:05 PM
That John Prine: Is RIGHT ON! /clipart/happy.gif Oh Ya, Please dont bury me, Down in that cold cold ground! "meister"

Sep 05 2002, 06:53 PM
Historical evidence.... A common request and one that will never be settled. I can tell you that the same verification processes used for 'other historical documents' that make them acceptable can and have been applied to the bible and it has withstood this acid test.

One test is cross historical verification, does other historical documents collaborated or invalidate? The bible has been shown time after time to be historically valid. Scholars of the time wrote about Jesus, some of them disbelieving his claims, but never showing them to be false. There are no historians that doubt Christ existed, only that he was truely the son of God. There are even scrolls that tried to explain why the sky darkened on the day Jesus was crucified. This was written by a non-believer trying to rationalize what I believe to be supernatural.

What most western thinking people fail to realize is that Jesus taught things that were so foreign to the people of the time that most couldn't understand what he was saying. Put yourself into the middle of Iran or Iraq and try to teach the things that Jesus taught and you will be stoned or shot. He taught NEW concepts, which most of us live in our daily lives today. Love your neighbor, that was something no one would say two thousand years ago. If you were not of my tribe, you were not of my concern. However this does not prove he was the son of God.

I think one of the best arguments was put forth by CS Lewis when he said Jesus was either a liar, a lunatic or lord. Are there anyother options? One could be that the bible was written as the writers wanted to display Christ. This of course would tend to throw out the old axiom of history being written by the conquerors, because the bible was never written when the Jews or the Christians were conquerors, except for a short time when David was king in the old testament.

As for the staff to snake, mana from heavan, Noah's ark, I don't know how much of that is historical and how much perception. I do know that the historical value of the old testament has been proven over and over. I do know that scientist today say that there was an "Eve". I do know that scientist also believe in the creation of matter from nothing. Explain that one.

Anyway, I believe that Jesus did not lie in what he believed or in what he said. That simply does not make since. I believe that he said things that were considered crazy at the time, but today we know that the thing he taught us, to love one another, is the healthiest way to live. And I choose to believe that Jesus was God on earth, sent here to talk to us because we are to thick headed to understand any other way.

And now, to climb off my soap box.

Sep 05 2002, 06:58 PM
I grew up with people that spoke another language and had a much different culture than I. They were very primitive (many lived in caves). They knew nothing of America or it's culture. All they knew about me, was that I came from far away.

We couldn't begin to argue about anything. Our communications were narrowed down to getting to know one another and helping each other live.

It was much easier for me to relate to them. I was never starving, but I did know what it fealt like to be hungry. I knew what it was to be sick, but I could usually count on medicine. I knew what it was like to work to eat but my life didn't depend on it.

To them, I might as well been from another planet. I was the richest person that had ever lived.

I know what it is like to live as a human. I know the atrocities that have been committed by organized religions, organized armies, organized governments and organized businesses. I know what it's like to prove things. I know some mathematics. I have read Samuel Clemens. Heck, I even watch some TV.

I know what time is. I experience the effects of time everyday. You can prove to me many things concerning time. I can do the same.

But I know what eternity is. I know it more than you can know anything. I can say this because I know, how you know, what you know. I know the same things that you know.

The entire amount of time that this universe has existed times a not the smallest fraction of a second to me. You think I'm concerned with proof about time? You think I'm concerned with any proofs regarding this universe? This universe doesn't take up the smallest fraction of eternity.

Don't forget! I'm here. I have a family. I live the same as you. I understand your thoughts concerning religion and believing in fairy tales.

I know a perfect God, who did the most impossible thing that could ever be conceived by your imagination. He created you. I'm not going to say what you are or are not. If you can't begin to fathom the impossibilty of your existence, along with it's importance, then I feel bad for knowing what I know.

Knowing what I know, elevates me in no way above someone that doesn't know. What I know is the same for them. They simply don't know it. They don't have to do anything to know it. If they did, then those that know would be elevated above those that don't know and I would be a part of just another imperfect religion.

All I can say is that it's great to know! I wish everyone knew. Some people are taught that there is only one way to know. Frankly, it's the only way I know. But that's OK. You see, I have to this day, not run across any other way that says you can know. Oh...there are some that get real close to saying you can know. You can just about know for certain if you do this or that. No thanks. Elevating again. I will be over nobody. Ever.

Anyway, There's no need to argue with me. Certainly can't change my mind! Seeing as how I know everything, literally. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

And I have no desire to argue with you. Much to trivial! Unless you want to argue about what perfect would have to be. That is a line of thought that can lead to very good places. No elevating.

Sep 05 2002, 07:00 PM
Here are a few points to keep in mind about Jesus' resurrection from the dead:
1) If it did happen then there is a power greater than death. This power comes from God.
2) You don't need to begin by saying that the Bible is inspired by God. You only need to begin by saying that it is a generally historically reliable document. This avoids circular logic. At every place where the historical accuracy of the Bible can be checked it has been shown to be accurate.
3) The very first accounts of the resurrection are from 1 Cor 15:3-7. Paul wrote this in A.D. 56, but this section is regarded as a creed which began in the first years after Jesus's death. Paul received this creed 3-8 years after Jesus' death, but it was formulated earlier than Paul received it.
4) The belief in the resurrection has always been the core belief of Christianity. The first believers went to their death proclaiming that it was true. If it didn't happen then you must account for how the idea started and was propagated.
5)** Roman historians, who were not Christians and who were hostile to Christians, give evidence of the resurrection. See Tacitus Annals, xv. 44 and Seutonius. (I can't lay my hands on the exact quotes but will provide them when I track them down.)
6) No other theory can adequately explain the resurrection. There are many such as that Jesus only swooned, or that the body was misplaced, or that the disciples stole the body, etc. It would take too long here to debunk each one.
7) Paul was changed from one who killed Christians to one was one of it's greatest evangelists.

I've got to stop now for lack of time, but if you have an open mind and are open to considering why the resurrection might be true then drop me an e-mail and I'd be happy to have a cordial discussion with you. You can reach me at [email protected]

There have been many other attacks on Christianity presented on this board, and although there are answers to each criticism I don't think that it would really make a difference to go through it all point by point.

Sep 05 2002, 07:11 PM
Hey Daniel, have you noted the interesting flavor of the posts with those who lean toward your world view? Anyhow, I expect that neither my logic and reason nor yours, nor the demeanor of my dogma or yours or how we present it is really the issue. I believe that the real issue lies elsewhere. I would suggest that we travel back. From me and you , to our parents, and back to their parents and follow the human race back to Eve, or perhaps Eve's or perhaps apes and back to walking /swimming fish and back to non-complex creatures and down to non-living matter to the inception of the physical universe itself. I imagine that we all would say that there was a beginning to the physical universe, or to matter. Perhaps not, perhaps one might say the matter always existed. In any case, as we trace the trail backwards in time, the Bible makes the statement that "In the begining God". I expect that the only other view that I have heard proposed is "In the beginning matter". Perhaps one might say that "In the beginning nothing", but something from nothing is at best,a fragile platform. So let us consider the two choices , God or matter. Does this seem too simplistic? I believe it to be just that simple. There seems to be a choice to make.Either a creative entitiy has existed from before the beginning of time as we know it and that this entity created the physical universe. On the other hand, perhaps matter has always existed. Then by some circumstances matter has evolved ,from whatever state in which it existed, to the become the universe we know. A universe inhabited by thinking creatures. I have made my choice and am content to live with it for eternity. It has a lot of benefits. It doesn't make me better than you or anyone else, it just comes with a great retirement. I choose to believe that it was God and still is. He has not told me which disc to throw yet, but He has does gently reveal to me the thoughts and attitudes of my heart, and leads me toward a conformed life, a life being conformed to that of my brother, Jesus Christ. Of course my favorite driver is the Archangel.

Sep 05 2002, 07:14 PM
"So even if I could prove that Jesus did exist it still wouldn't be sufficient? Doesn't that support my previous point? "

If you say so...

It is widely accepted by many non-Christian scholars that a man named Jesus existed. Heck, even Jews and Muslims believe he existed, but not that he was the Son of God, not that he was resurrected, and not that he performed the miracles attributed to him by the bible.

Sep 05 2002, 07:18 PM
I agree with Randy's earlier post. Why are non-believers even clicking on the link to a thread entitled "Disc Golfers for Jesus???????" ? What makes you fell compelled or so threatened to do this? And anyone looking for proof of a God should try looking in the mirror some time. The human body (and all and everything in the world) is far too beautiful and purposeful to be some cosmic accident. I don't want to and won't rant or answer any criticisms further.......

Sep 05 2002, 07:22 PM
A P, have you read any of the Quran???? The Muslims do believe that he was a Prophet of God and that he performed miracles. They don't believe in his resurrection because they don't believe that God would let His son die at the hands of infidels. They believe that Muhammed is the final prophet and greater than Jesus. They donot believe in the concept of the Trinity.

Sep 05 2002, 08:13 PM
AP, if you look at documents written at the time by leadings Jews, they did believe that he performed miracles, simply that they were not God inspired. The Jews don't believe it today, but they did two thousand years ago. The Muslems also believe that he performed miracles, but as Stan said that he was not the son of God. As a matter of fact the Quran does talk about him. The difference, however is that several centeries after the bible was completed Mohammed plagerized the heck out of the bible. I am not meaning to be offensive to the Muslem, but the facts are that the Quran cannot be trusted for historical verification and yet the bible has been tested and proven repeatedly.

If you want specifics I would be happy to find a few.

Sep 05 2002, 08:44 PM
""I think one of the best arguments was put forth by CS Lewis when he said Jesus was either A. a liar; B. a lunatic; or C. lord.""

The correct answer in B...he suffered from a disease that affects about 1% of the population. He had schizophrenia.

Many, many times in history we find schizophrenics with delusions of being God or the son of God or a prophet of God, etc. Many of these people attract large followings of worshipers because schizophrenics are often very magnetic and charismatic and persuasive, and they believe so completely in their delusions that they can easily convince lots of others that they are special. Very often people admire and worship them. David Koresh, Jim Jones, Charles Manson, Adolf Hitler, were other schizophrenics with devout followers.

I am very fond of Jesus. He said many admirable things that I think were inspired by God, but the whole thing about being the Son of God, and the whole "If you believe in me you will get into heaven" routine is exactly what tells me he suffered from schizophrenia.

Sep 05 2002, 09:07 PM
O.k., I'm a little late in this discussion, but I, as a believer in God must say something, Whoever says that the people on this board are shoving God down your throat, is truly wrong. As far as I can tell, nobody is making them look at this thread, if you feel violated, leave. I think you would be doing much better though to realize that your mind has already been made up in your decision to not believe in God, whereas, my mind has been made up that God does exist and that I am going to heaven.

Also, there was a comment a while back about someone being insulted because someone had told them that they were going to hell if they didn't believe in God.
My reply to that is, well, probably yes. However, shy should it matter, If you don't believe in God, then why would it matter if you went to hell, because then there would be no reason at all for hell to exist ... correct?

Sep 05 2002, 09:43 PM
Morgan, the thing that is particularly cool about Jesus saying that he is the way to Heaven is that there are no ties to it. He didn't say people had to follow his teachings. He didn't say they had to join a religion. All they had to do was accept the fact that he had ended/fulfilled whatever requirements people had been taught were needed to gain entry to Heaven. Better said, meet the requirements needed to be with a perfect God.

So he is not comparable to your other characters. When he told people to follow him, it was not to a crusade. It was not to organize. It was to follow his example of loving non-believers and not thinking that closeness to God was attainable through good deeds lest any man should boast.

Great story! If the whole thing is made up, I will still believe it because it's too cool. I cannot imagine a more perfect way to enable imperfect creatures to join perfection than simply having them accept the fact that they are forgiven for their imperfections and will be made perfect (however impossible it may seem to me) in Heaven.

The message has been twisted (not suprising, since a beautiful angel is trying everything in it's power to keep us out of Heaven - and for good reason - the heads of God's religion killed God on Earth - what more proof does God need to end this experiment!), but in truth it is perfect. Jesus didn't lift a finger to fight against those that didn't believe him. He forgave them. He didn't say mean things to the "sinners" on the streets. He reserved calling people vipers for religious people that thought they were above the "sinners".

I share many of the views posted about religion by my non-believing friends. So did Jesus.

Sep 05 2002, 09:50 PM
That was a reply to the "callin' mah Bible a work of fiction is fightin' words" comment.

You kind of missed the whole point of that entire interaction. It was a peace offering of sorts. An agreement to disagree. "I won't try to tell you the Bible is a work of fiction and you don't try to Ram jesus down my throat." I think that expresses it. You just said the same thing while attacking my statements out of context. Whatever.

So do y'all think the world is in more danger from the heathen non-believers carrying on their soul-less ways, or from the devout religion-ists who are lining up their armies as we speak?

Sep 05 2002, 09:53 PM
Wimm, you make by far the best arguments for your "side". Your christian brethren should take heed of your words. Just don't let them see the "Nipple in the Bluebonnets" picture!

Sep 05 2002, 11:36 PM
Everything happens for a reason. Do the right thing. My children are beautiful. I love my wife. I am becoming my Dad. My Mom drives me nuts. I am comfortable with what I know. Everything happens for a reason. Stop.

Sep 05 2002, 11:56 PM
The last thing Christians need to worry about is what kind of danger the world is in. And I'm a great picture of a Christian. If I can go to heaven, anybody can go to heaven!

...and it's all one side.

...and I have a better chance of truly getting to "know" someone that honestly questions all religious questions (including the Bible) than someone that believes what they are told because it's the "right" thing to do. There are some fundamental questions that have to be asked of a perfect God that would create an imperfect world that can be as ghastly as this. But it's important to ask the questions while seeking an answer.

I became a "Christian" when I was seven. I couldn't stop smoking, drinking, cussing or lusting after women (well maybe the last one). I believed and taught it my whole life. I grew up in the Bible, backwards and forwards.

When I was graduating from adolescence, there were questions that needed to be answered. Because the Bible tells me so, was no longer sufficient. The Bible was obviously saying too many different things to too many different people.

Believing was no longer good enough when it came to telling others. I quit. Turns out, once I stood honestly in my ignorance before God, I knew what wisdom meant. I didn't know what it was...but I knew what it meant. It was knowing. I didn't know. I believed. There's a difference.

Well, now I know. At first I thought I was going to become some sort of prophet! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif Turns out, I'm just a grown-up child living a life. Same as everybody else.

I gotta go help my kids beat party mode on Mario Party 3 so we can open up some new lands.

Sep 06 2002, 01:12 AM
Mario party 3 rocks...

Sep 06 2002, 05:58 AM

I click on all the threads. I have no life.

C.E. Birdie,

I don't recall a "Disc Golfers for Atheism" thread. If someone expresses their views in a place that invites public scrutiny, they should be prepared to defend those views against potential challenges.

Sep 06 2002, 08:09 AM
This is some good [*****]! I like religious and spiritual folk cause they believe in stuff that generally makes them feel good and helpful to others. It's when it makes them feel bad and act with pity or disrespect to others that problems start.

I generally distrust the one path to heaven theory and view it as a tool developed to gain power and influence over others by men over men. I prefer and find it far more likely that a good, loving and just creator would provide for more than one path to him. The universe, for me, is his greatest testament for those with senses to percieve it. What clearer example do we need as to his intentions and methods.

This thread and entire board is certainly a form of communion. Whether for good or ill it's up to us.

Sep 06 2002, 08:31 AM
There are actually 3 paths to God:

1. Practice your putting 3 hours per day

2. Learn your discs

3. etc

Sep 06 2002, 08:39 AM
Always wondered about Muslims accepting Christ as a prophet. I find that to be 'lip service'. A prophet in every religion I have studied can never be proven false. Well if Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God, and Muslims refute that, then how can He be a prophet???

Just lip service�

Sep 06 2002, 08:57 AM
Does finding fault with another religion somehow strengthen yours?

What Islam has in common with the other great religions of the world is what matters. Educating yourself on that would seem like a wiser and more worthy pursuit, wouldn't it?

Sep 06 2002, 09:48 AM
T. Daniel,
Try here (, or here ( ).

Sep 06 2002, 10:12 AM
It really is, as Harold Duvall said earlier, a matter of choice.

Each of the Manifestations, Prophets, Sons of God is like a mirror, reflecting the goodness and purity of the light of God to those that choose to see it through that particular mirror. And those that choose not to look into any of the mirrors are welcome to make that choice, as well.

Not one of the mirrors, as far as I can tell from more than a few years of study, ever said to deny anyone the choice to look into one of the other mirrors. After all, it is the message and goodness of GOD that is reflected down through history and in the many places in the world that messengers have appeared that is important.

Too much is assumed about the beliefs and convictions of others by people that jealously guard and promote their particular mirror. I, myself, have made the choice of following the teachings of the Baha'i Faith. I consider it to be a bounty, since I am enjoined to study, respect, and adhere to the spiritual teachings of all the former manifestations. I am also taught to "consort with the followers of all religions in peace and unity" since there really is only one religion...the religion of God. As Nick said earlier, there are many paths. Walk your own. Let others walk theirs. Even those that choose not to believe are walking a path, usually of goodness.

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 215)"

Sep 06 2002, 10:20 AM
Nick says, "I generally distrust the one path to heaven theory and view it as a tool developed to gain power and influence over others by men over men."

Then Nick says, "Does finding fault with another religion somehow strengthen yours?"

That's entertainment!

Jesus said. " man cometh unto the Father but by me." I don't think he was using it as a tool to gain power and influence over men. I think it was the opposite. The people no longer had to go through men of high standing or religious rules to come to God.

It is true that some Christian religions say that one must accept Jesus Christ as saviour to go to Heaven. I prefer to say that anyone that goes to Heaven, does so because of what Jesus did. I believe this extends to all men, even those that lived before the life of Jesus.

Some would say I am taking from the urgency that Christians should feel about getting the message out. Well...Christians should always want to get their message out. Perpetually. But there is no forcing someone into acceptance. There is also no scaring someone into acceptance. Acceptance requires acknowledgement of guilt and acceptance of forgiveness. Not trivial guilt for past short-comings. Total guilt for being me.

There is no way I can go to Heaven. I'll screw it up. Oh...maybe not majorly. I doubt if I will kill and eat anyone. But the extent doesn't matter. It's one thing to be imperfect here. Quite another to be imperfect for one moment in Heaven. Heaven cannot be screwed up. Ever. If it ever is...for one is no longer Heaven. That's why Satan is correct in saying I can't be let in. He has proven many times over the reasons why I can't go to Heaven.

But God was made man. He was killed in this imperfect void and took the imperfections of this world upon himself. He then entered into Heaven, along with all of the worlds imperfections. This is quite impossible, and I doubt if Satan believes it to this day. The miracle of Jesus extends well beyond rising from the dead. Heck, Jesus did that with Lazerus.

So I'm going to Heaven. Why? Because of what God and Jesus did. My acceptance of the fact? It's great to know.

While sitting with friends from Lebanon and Syria, our conversations are wonderful. Very nice people. I simply tell them that I can't know if they're going to Heaven unless they know they are. They agree. I say the same thing to Atheist friends. They agree. There's nothing for us to argue about. We agree!

They're probably all better people than I am. There is no way I can say they are going to be seperated forever from God if they don't accept Jesus as their saviour. There is also no way I can say that I know they are going to Heaven. But what I say about their standing with God is of no importance. THANK GOD!

I let them and anyone else know that they can come to God (all the way...complete...finished), if they accept the fact that Jesus has forgiven their imperfections. No religion. No criteria.

Ya'll be nice to each other. Feel free to call me an idiot. I deserve it. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 06 2002, 10:23 AM
I'll bet Jesus can crush a disc...

Sep 06 2002, 10:34 AM
And he sure wouldn't have to worry about losing any in the water.

Sep 06 2002, 11:07 AM
He'd get in alot of trouble forgiving people for breaking the rules. That one's for Harold Duvall. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 06 2002, 11:43 AM
Do my god dam dues pay for this drivel? (Of course not, I ain't no member.) Who's in charge of this madhouse? Why is this crapola out here? This is a frigging sport/game that's some people play for money and glory and most other play for quarter skins while getting stoned and drunk. This sunday school sheet is great for those who who think that life is anything but ephemeral. But, I ask again, who's in charge of this web site? This discussion cannot possibly be a function of the PDGA (unless it stands for proving deities and gods abound). It's not getting a course planted, a course cleaned, getting disc golf in schools, how to throw a turnover, and announcing the next stoner fest in Kansas or West Virginia. You sunday schoolers should get your own bandwith to jerk each around or off.

Sep 06 2002, 11:59 AM
...and most other play for quarter skins while getting stoned and drunk.

That most certainly is untrue. I find it ironic that this post appears in this thread, since the "stoner crowd" seems to be just as myopic as the worst of the "jesus Crammers"! i.e., since they party everybody must party, and some think disc golf would cease to exist if you chased the stoners out of PDGA events!

CLARIFICATION: I am not accusing anybody in this thread of being amongst the worst of the "jesus Crammers". Even the believers know these guys exist, so don't even get on the high horse about this. Please. Discussion in this thread has been amazing considering the topic!

Sep 06 2002, 12:53 PM
OH NOOOOOOOO! /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 06 2002, 12:56 PM
So, Mike Hunt...

What is it about religion, or Christianity specifically, that scares you so much?

Also, I would offer to you that, in as much as everyone of us here loves our sport of disc golf, it is just a game. One of many, in fact. It is possible we talk about other issues here on the PDGA website because there is much more to life that this game. I count as one of the greatest things about this game (as well as most others) is the fact that it brings people together and lets them get to know each other, starting from a common point of interest.

So, don't be so quick to judge a person before you spend a little time with them and get to know them.

(stepping off of my soapbox now...) /clipart/smile.gif

Sep 06 2002, 05:28 PM
T Daniel: you said "I have asked hundreds of people whether it is possible that they are wrong. When one of them admits they could be wrong, 90% of the time, it is an atheist. Most Christians, Muslims and Jews I have asked will not even admit the potential exists that they could be wrong. (Although some have, my experience has shown them to be the exception rather than the rule.)" Oh great, more generalizations. My experience has been quite different. I have most often found naturalists and atheists to be dogmatic in their positions. What does it prove? Nothing. Only that people will hold tight to presuppositions and something they believe strongly in for many reasons.

you said: "Dogma is bad and inherently dangerous to the human condition." I'm not sure what use you are making of the term 'dogma' here... perhaps you can elaborate?

you said: "Conditions change and we must adapt, technologically and philosophically. We are trying to deal with 21st century technology and modern problems with philosophical systems that are thousands of years old in some cases. This is why I think religion is evil and dangerous." First: Are the problems really any different? My opinion would be "no". Most problems involving people can be boiled down to selfishness. Second: Are you really asserting that new philosophy must be correct because it is new?

you said: "Atheism is a non-belief. Since atheists make no claims other than there are no gods, they have nothing to prove. Any college sophomore that has had logic knows that the burden of proof lies with the one who says something exists. One doesn't say this exists, disprove it. One says this exists and here is the proof. The believer is responsible for evidence, not the non-believer." Your college sophomore will fail logic, for your statement is not true and does not follow logic (I've heard the same assertion made on alt.atheism and other boards, and effectively refuted there. I suggest a google search). The fact is: any claim of knowledge requires something to back it up. If an atheist claims that there is no god (as you have above), then that atheist should be able to back it up. (Please don't trot out the tired and incorrect 'can't prove a negative' assertion in your response).

God does exist.
God does not exist.

Logic tells us that one, and only one, of those two statements must be true. Do you have a stance? :-)

(I'm intrigued that you ignored my suggestion to logically examine each outlook, too - is this a question you REALLY want answered? or are you just yanking chains?)

Morgan: "I am very fond of Jesus. He said many admirable things that I think were inspired by God..." What things did he say that you found admirable?

Lot of interesting comments and statements in this thread. Some well thought out, some not, but all enlightening.

Sep 06 2002, 06:06 PM
To Mike Hunt (Say it fast) Real name I'm sure! The term is N'er DO Well! Dumb [*****]! I hope I can say that , cause there was alot of them in the bible. (Asses, That is.)

Sep 06 2002, 06:08 PM
It's like a radio. If you dont like it ,TURN IT OFF! /clipart/proud.gif

Sep 06 2002, 06:20 PM
Sorry about the double post. But I'm sure Mr. shaved Hunt will be all over me ,like a rubbernecked Geek at a car wreck! Like me, He cant wait to hear what these people will write next!!!

Sep 06 2002, 06:47 PM
Morgan, your theory that Jesus was a schizophrenic doesn't seem very plausible to me. I don't think that a mentally ill person could teach as he did and continue to inspire people to follow him for thousands of years. I see no evidence of mental illness anywhere. Then you also still have to deal with his death. Why didn't that stop the whole thing and send his followers hiding in fear?

Sep 06 2002, 06:55 PM
Rhett, way back near the resurrection of this thread I said that you were starting an argument by one of your posts. I was re-reading what you wrote and I realize that I read it wrong. I apologize for my defensive reply. You were offering an olive branch (even though it had some thorns in it).

Sep 06 2002, 07:17 PM
Since everything in life revolves around disc golf(ask my wife), it's ok to talk about religion or whatever, just as it's ok for Jim to come on here with his anti-religion comments. You just can't come onto a website, that promotes discussion, and talk about God or whatever, without getting other opinons. Without those "other" opinions this thread would have died long ago, then what would you have. You wouldn't of had the wonderful discussion you all have had. You can learn alot of your fellow golfers from discussions like these. Some of you are pretty dam smart. I think Randy should be a pastor and Jim should write for the Discovery channel. All the arguements are good for both sides, but still neither proves each other is right or wrong. You want to believe in something because you hate to think that there is nothing after death, yet there is not a whole alot good going on to prove that he actually interveens with any of our lives. I still don't understand how God will help someone who prays to be cured of cancer, because he prayed or a group of people prayed for him, yet millions pray everyday to stop the violence in the mideast, as well as the world, and he does nothing. I think he does nothing in either case. If you got healed, it's just coincidence.
By the way, did anybody see "The real Eve" on the discovery channel the other day?

Sep 06 2002, 07:39 PM
Russell, God knows I want $700,000.00's what I want! He hasn't given it to me. Truth is, I don't want him to give it to me if it's not the best thing for the big picture.

So when it comes to me asking for anything...all I can do is ask for the best thing to happen for the big picture (which is what's gonna happen anyway /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif).

It's alot like a parent with a child at the grocery store. It's frustating for both parent and child but it's all part of the relationship. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 06 2002, 08:08 PM

"Then you also still have to deal with his death. Why didn't that stop the whole thing and send his followers hiding in fear."

Same reason the death of (fill in the blank) did not stop their religion or the idea that they were still alive. The blank can be filled in with one of hundreds of names such as Mohammed, Ghatama Bhuda, Confucius, Moses, Lenin, Krishna, Joseph Smith, Elvis, Jim Morrison, Tupac's the most common human trait, to believe that their leader never died.

There are even people who think Houdini was God and is still alive!!

Sep 06 2002, 08:29 PM
I have worked with high school youth at different churches and 'why doesn't he do something about this?' is a common question. I don't know if this will help, but my answer is that you should view God as your father. You reach an age with your parents in which you ask why they are so restrictive, why can't I stay out as late as I want, why shouldn't I run around with that individual? Most of the time you become resentful and angry. Now let us take this all the way until you are an adult. If your parents told you to do something now you would grow to resent it. Good parents let you make your owns mistakes and learn.

So if I allow one child to exercise their free will, should I restrict anothers? At what point would God stop you from making a bad decision? Would it be to stop you from drinking a glass of wine? How about 6 glasses of wine? Should he then stop you from driving since you made a bad decision to drink to much? And if you drink and drive if you kill someone is that the point that he should stop you?

The point is, God wants you to choose the right thing. Now if you don't He also wants you to be able to make that decision.

Sep 06 2002, 10:00 PM
Nick says, "I generally distrust the one path to heaven theory and view it as a tool developed to gain power and influence over others by men over men."

Then Nick says, "Does finding fault with another religion somehow strengthen yours?"

Yes, I did. These are not mutually exclusive statements. Both express a concern I have about religions that preach intolerance or promote the idea that we are the chosen ones and they are nothing. I prefer to leave such judgements to the creator.

The testiment of the creator is the universe itself. It can not be contained within the ideas and stories of a book, or within cleverly phrased passages of men, and even if it could, without the testiment of life and the universe none would have the wisdom to comprehend it.

Randy, you should concern yourself more with dealing with your own issues and less with trying to prove me wrong. It really is a waste of your time.

Sep 06 2002, 11:15 PM
T. Daniel,

"I don't recall a "Disc Golfers for Atheism" thread. If someone expresses their views in a place that invites public scrutiny, they should be prepared to defend those views against potential challenges."

I didn't say that I didn't want anybody else's opinions on this matter, in fact, I like hearing the other side of it. What I was saying is that if someone feels violated, or forced to listen to this "God Talk", then they can leave if they want. They don't have to stay and listen. Likewise, If I were to feel like people were shoving God back in my face, I don't have to stay here. I can respond to criticism, or not participate in the discussion.

I'm going to leave it at that, for at least a couple of days. It's time to go play some disc golf. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 07 2002, 01:05 AM
Who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even sothe thoughts of GOD no one knows except the Spirit of GOD.
Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from GOD, so that we may know the things freely given to us by GOD, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
But the unsaved do not accept the things of the Spirit of GOD, for they are foolishness to them; &amp; they cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
But he who is Spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by noone.
For who has known the mind of the LORD, that he will instruct HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Sep 07 2002, 01:19 AM
I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy again.../msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Sep 07 2002, 02:24 AM
i promised myself i wouldn't respond here anymore so the thread would hope fade away but since it hasn't i would like to clear up a couple of errors from the 2 posts listed below(no words were changed but i only copied parts to question..either of the entire posts can be read above

first off with jerry's post below....

By Jerry Power on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 04:29 pm: I don't know if this will help, but my answer is that you should view God as your father. If your parents told you to do something now you would grow to resent it. Good parents let you make your owns mistakes and learn.
And if you drink and drive if you kill someone is that the point that he should stop you?
The point is, God wants you to choose the right thing. Now if you don't He also wants you to be able to make that decision.

the main problem with this line of thought is that man(being human)does not always make a good choice and other people(some believers included)are "made" to suffer through no fault of their own(no matter their beliefs)....
WHEN DOES YOUR OWN PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY START????take responsilbility for your own actions instead of saying that someone or something "made" you do it...PLEASE!

and second with rob's post

By Rob Florida on Friday, September 06, 2002 - 09:05 pm:
Who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?
But the unsaved do not accept the things of the Spirit of GOD, for they are foolishness to them; &amp; they cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
But he who is Spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by noone.
For who has known the mind of the LORD, that he will instruct HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

sorry rob.....but sometimes the saved also do not accept things...i have been saved since 1975.....but i still use my own mind and thoughts to function in this world...being saved doesn't mean being blind or numb to the real just means that when you die...your soul is supposedly going somewhere else..i have yet to meet anyone who is saved come back and tell me that is true so i will have to wait to find out for myself unless one of the message board posters that has passed on comes back to tell us otherwise

this post is in no way sarcastic or intending to change anyone's opinion on is just the viewpoint of someone who is saved not agreeing with everything that is posted here.......keith

Sep 07 2002, 04:37 AM
Without naming names, I wish to share an e-mail I received from someone who has publicly posted here.

"Show me some proof of God's existence and I will follow Him as He desires."
I don't think I can prove that God exists but I know that God can prove to you that He exists, if you care to know. I mean, what kind of a God could not prove His own existence to an honest seeker?
Try this for a few months. It will only take 5-10 seconds of your time perday, and it is dead time anyway. At the end of the day when you are lying
down to sleep, say in your head, "God, if You exist, whoever You might be, show me."

i don't know what the written (or unwritten)message board code is about revealing private e-mails in this forum. if i'm violating some gentlemen's agreement, my apologies. i figured as long as i didn't name names, i would probably be ok.

this is an UNINVITED intrusion into my personal life that is, in essence, an invitation to pray to some mythological being to reveal himself to me. this is an effort to win a convert for the cause. DO NOT bring this into my private life. DO NOT send me uninvited e-mails about god. this is one of my problems with these witch-doctor worshippers. they think that since they're talking about god it's ok to go wherever they please and talk to whomever they wish about their glorious leader. What happens in the context of a public forum is one thing. what happens in my private life is another. i don't want or need your god in my private life. enough of my public life is already exposed to too many things related to him.

to answer the e-mailer publicly, assuming that you accept god's omniscience - as most believers do - why indeed would god create a creature that he wanted to worship him and then not reveal himself to that creature? Because of his omniscience, god knows (infallibly) that the creature will not believe in him, thereby dooming that creature to eternal damnation. what a rush that must be for god! of course, when you're god, there's no one to answer to - you're the biggest boss of them all.

if god does exist, why doesn't he show himself to all of us? imagine how much peace and calm would consume the planet. why are we here in the first place? are we supposed to learn something or what? it seems that the only point of this world is to learn to cower and kneel. i mean all you have to do to get to heaven is accept jesus christ as your lord and saviour and you get eternal bliss after only 70-80 years on the planet. it doesn't matter if you've lived the most pious life or you're a serial killing axe-murderer - accept jesus and you're in! what a deal!

god has had plenty of opportunities to reveal himself to me. i've stood at his front door on more than one occasion and knocked until my fingers bled. no one is home. the power is off, the doors are locked, the shutters are closed, the grass is overgrown - he's not there. i don't think he's coming back.

Sep 07 2002, 04:53 AM
I like how Keith is clearing up Rob Florida's post when Rob's whole post was a quote from St Paul.

Hey Keith, what else did St Paul say that needs to be corrected?

Sep 07 2002, 05:02 AM
Answer to Rick Bays, one of the things that Jesus said that was admirable was to love your enemy. That's pretty cool. Sounds like something God would tell us to do.

Sep 07 2002, 09:16 AM
I have cried in my pants.......Chuck.

Sep 07 2002, 10:04 AM
How bout moving this to miscellaneous as it's gone WAY off topic (DISC GOLF CLUBS)

Unless we are going to club those who continue this thread....


Sep 07 2002, 10:16 AM
Leave Mr. Sellers alone! Do not answer his posts. Do not send him anything.

Now we can start arguing with each other. Good. I have no desire to argue with non-believers. Believers? Let me at them.

Nick Kight, you were being condescending in your reply to someone while building up your stance. It doesn't matter what the topic is. It's what you do. I got a good laugh out of it. So I called it entertainment.

Keith, the only thing we are reponsible for is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, all our mind and all our understanding and love our neighbor as ourself. Now when we do this, I am quite certain that we will be living a "responsible" life.

I am also quite certain that we will turn away from God and stick our fingers in the mud. We just can't help it. When we do, we (like everyone else in this life) will face the consequences. These consequences are as much a part of this universe as particle matter.

One of the most important things for Christians to understand is that there are two sides that from this world are contradictory. From Heaven, they do not contradict.

For instance, it is a true statement to say that I make every choice in life and my life is altered by every choice. It is also true that every choice I make was known to God before my creation and there is nothing I can do to change it.

Now if I say that the first of those sentences is true, I am correct. If I say the second is true, I am correct. If I say the first is untrue and the second is true, I am wrong. I'm not wrong about what I'm saying is true, but I'm wrong in saying the other is untrue. Which, in the total package makes me wrong.

I would invite all Christians to read the book of Job. Pay close attention to the fact that Job was blessed by God with a wonderful life because he was a good man and how God allowed Satan to strip him of everything because Job was a good man.

Pay close attention to what Job's friends have to say. There are literally chapters devoted to nothing other than their words to Job about his affliction. If you opened your Bible to some of these chapters and started reading them, you might think it is God's word. They could be preached from a pulpit.

They are wrong. Oh...much of it is true. But it is all said for the wrong reason. Job's friends were wrong. He had done nothing to warrant what was happening to him. Wait! Yes he had. He loved God. That's why some of the worst things on earth were happening to him. His friends never considered it.

I am responsible for all may actions. I am responsible for nothing. Yes! Morgan is right. I'm schizo!

Sep 07 2002, 10:18 AM
Move it where you want. It will be just as popular.

Everybody pray for Hicks. He doesn't mind. /msgboard/images/clipart/happy.gif

Sep 07 2002, 12:19 PM
I want to know where the first mini and club meeting will be for this D.G.F.J.D.G.C.?

Sep 07 2002, 12:45 PM
It's gonna be at heaven on earth. Moodys at Red Rock!

Sep 07 2002, 01:27 PM
Morgan: "one of the things that Jesus said that was admirable was to love your enemy. That's pretty cool. Sounds like something God would tell us to do."

Tough to do (that's not normally our first reaction, is it?) , and probably tough to hear for people in first century Palestine. The region was no less war torn then than now. Sometimes I wonder what my reaction would have been had I been in an audience at the time.

How do you think people in 21st century America should apply this?

Are there other sayings that you find admirable or inspired?

Sep 07 2002, 01:43 PM

Sep 07 2002, 02:19 PM
Cool! A graffiti artist.

Sep 07 2002, 02:58 PM
We've heard Allah this before. So if Allah you are going to keep it up, Allah the rest of us are going to ignore Allah this./msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Sep 07 2002, 09:14 PM
The only thing that would actually save Hicks would be a case of Depends (for the mature male).

Sep 08 2002, 02:51 AM
fer chrissakes

Sep 08 2002, 02:54 AM

Sep 08 2002, 02:55 AM

Sep 08 2002, 02:55 AM

Sep 08 2002, 02:55 AM

Oct 22 2002, 05:03 AM
Disc Golf for Cheeses?


Oct 22 2002, 06:14 PM
Seriously, If you've tried sex,drugs,and all the world's pleasures and you're still miserable,

Talk to Christ

Oct 22 2002, 09:22 PM
or get a new wife /msgboard/images/clipart/proud.gif

Oct 22 2002, 11:31 PM
or get your doctor to change your antidepressants

Oct 23 2002, 02:36 AM
Anyone, and I mean Anyone who has tried ALL the world's pleasures and who is stil miserable needs to try all the world's pleasures twice, to see what it is they forgot after the first time.

one slightly less sarcastic question:
Is not Christ one of this world's 'pleasures'?
think bout it right before your next critcal putt.

Oct 23 2002, 11:43 AM
Saturday I was on the course by myself, met two Mormon Missionaries. They came over Sunday evening and gave me the Book of Mormon. They were very interested in disc golf, so I gave them each a J-Bird soft Magnet putter and a driver.

Oct 23 2002, 12:54 PM
Did you ask them about their magic underwear?