PDGA Sanctioned Leagues

[16670]

so fo $25 you get 12 weeks of league insurance?

[warwickdan]

so if your league has 8 pdga members and on a given nite only 4 of those folks show up, is it correct that the scores for the 4 players that attended will NOT count towards their pdga rating?

if correct that seems kind of unfair to those that attend, but i cant offer a suitable solution right now.

[cgkdisc]

The unofficial ratings software online will not calculate ratings for that night. However, when you submit your report for official calculations, we'll figure out a way to get ratings for all nights even if one or two did not have at least 5 propagators. The only time we would resist doing ratings is if the TD told us on that particular league night, there were wailing winds out of character with the typical weather on other nights.

[gotcha]

What about monthly leagues? In Pittsburgh we run monthly events at our three championship courses.....Deer Lakes, Knob Hill and Moraine State Park. Is there an exception to the "12 week" period for clubs who host monthly leagues rather than weekly leagues?

[cgkdisc]

Not for now but maybe in the future. We're trying to keep it simple in the beginning to get the system set up and any admin issues worked out. For example, in your case the problem is getting the rounds reported and posted. If we waited a whole year before your league submitted final results, the early rounds could be a year old before they were posted to a player's rating. At this point, we don't have a way nor want to deal with league TDs having to send interim TD reports during the middle of leagues, just final reports.

If you consider doing two 1-round events per month instead of just one, then you could qualify as a league since you'd have 6 rounds during the 3-month period. No, you can't do three 2-round events over three months to count as a league. That's three C-tiers.

[gotcha]

What if we grouped our three monthly leagues together for each 12-week period? For example:

Week 1 : Knob Hill Monthly
Week 2 : Moraine Monthly
Week 3 : Deer Lakes Monthly

Week 4 : Knob Hill Monthly
Week 5 : Moraine Monthly
Week 6 : Deer Lakes Monthly

....and so on. It would be a Pittsburgh weekly league that utilizes three courses in rotation.

[cgkdisc]

No problem with that. Leagues can play a different course each week if they wish. The only stipulation is that all league players play the same layout on whatever course is played that day. In your example, you could have a 9-week league that fits in the 3-month period.

Something to consider because all three are Championship caliber courses, is to sanction two leagues running at the same time so you don't brutalize the lower level players having to play the blue or gold layouts. Sanction one league that includes only Pro and Advanced divisions and they play the blues or golds. Sanction a separate league for Ams at Intermediate and lower levels plus Juniors (if any). They would play the Whites or Reds. League players are allowed to switch divisions each week if they wish. So an Intermediate could still play up in Advanced some weeks if they'd rather play the blues on a course.

[gotcha]

Excellent idea, Chuck. I suspect we could throw an additional course into the mix so we could host a sanctioned event each week of the month. Thank you.

[ninafofitre]

Here are a couple Buy In Examples I would consider

All the monetary values can be dictated by your preference, but here are a few different style that may work for your group.


Standard Cash
$10 buy in each week
$5 for the action
$3 for 3 Cash CTPS,
$1 Progressive Ace Pot,
$1 Player Fee

One-Time Fee
$12 One Time for dues
Free weekly play with optional side bet
Use Extra money from players that don't show up every week for end of season payout.

Hans Solo
$1 weekly buy in for dues
Optional side bet
Optional CTP and Progressive Ace Pot

[ninafofitre]

Originally Posted by 16670

so fo $25 you get 12 weeks of league insurance?

PDGA League sanctioning includes insurance coverage under the PDGA tour policy.

[Rollern]

I would like to agree 100% with comments that we should not focus on rating, just play and enjoy playing, but:

In Sweden where I live, discgolf is increasingly popular, there are many players but competitions are far apart, both in distance and time. The start fields fill up fast and the waiting lists are long.
When registration for national tournaments open, they open in three steps and it is your rating that determine at what step you can register. In this situation, being two rating points above the “line” or two below, determine if you can play or not. Rating IS important!
Upto now the problem has been seen mostly at National level but last year we could also see start fields at regional level that where filled within days.
The opportunity to get rating from local leagues is therefore a god thing and essential for players to improve the rating in order to compete on the “next level”.
However, given the important role of rating to secure a place in the tournaments, I see a potential problem:

Some players tend to DNF bad rounds during tournaments to “rescue” the rating, these local leagues gives increased opportunities for those players to manipulate the rating in their own favor by using the DNF weapon.

Are there any plans on how to deal with possible DNF issues in these local leagues?

[cgkdisc]

The PDGA has been monitoring DNFs for a while in case certain players have a pattern of dropping out of rounds, especially when the TD reports the player played most of a round and either did not complete it or missed 10 putts on the last hole to increase their score so the round rating would be dropped from their rating. Suspicious DNF's have been a very, very small problem in the U.S. as a percentage of all rounds. A few players have been warned or disciplined for a pattern of DNF behavior. In some cases, it appears to be players trying to boost their rating so they can get or retain sponsorship. Some sponsors monitor whether their players DNF rounds to do this.

But I can see where we may need to monitor league results more closely to make sure this doesn't become a problem for the reasons you indicated. Only a few events in the U.S. use ratings to determine when players can enter. So there's not as much incentive to increase your rating using DNFs. Thank you for your comments on this topic. I think we may need to alert League TDs to report the reasons for each player's DNFs beyond simply entering 999 for their score.

[underparmike]

Kevin & Chuck, these pDGA leagues are a great idea! Thanks for offering something other than tournament sanctioning. It is great to see the pDGA trying something new and relatively simple.

These leagues might be enough to get me to renew for 2012 in fact. I have three questions for the panel:

Question #1: Can league play begin anytime after daylight savings time begins at 2 a.m. on Sunday March 11?

Question #2: We have a lot of potential players who are past members of the pDGA but for various and usually justifiable reasons they won't pay the outrageous annual pDGA membership fee. Would these players who have a pDGA number and past rating count towards the 5 player minimum required to propagate?

Question #3: Our league directors are not pDGA current. Does the League Director have to be a current pDGA member?

[cgkdisc]

I'll let Kevin handle Q1 & Q3 although I suspect it will be a requirement that the League Director be PDGA current and have passed the Officials test. But like TDs, the $10 cost of the Officials test may be waived.

Q2: If a player has a PDGA number, an old rating and is noncurrent, their rating will still be updated when they play league but they won't be able to see their rating unless they renew. If their rating is too old (say most recent round was before 2009), it will take 8 league rounds before they become a propagator. Likewise, new league players who have never joined the PDGA can become propagators once they have 8 rated rounds with a hidden rating over 799, even though they won't be able to see it until they join.

At this point, league results will not be officially rated until the league is completed. So new league players or renewed veteran players will not be able to be props until the next league after the point their first league has been officially rated and they have a PDGA rating whether they can see it or not.

[joegraham]

How would points work for a handicap league where all players are in one division?

[gregorvn]

I think this is a great idea. Thanks for making it happen. I have a few questions:

Originally Posted by ninafofitre

Dan we are in the process of putting together a more simple TD report to upload the scores. The spread sheet provided to League Directors will also have a tracking system where you can track your week to week performance, points standings etc. All the LD will need to do is input the scores once and the power of Excel will take care of the rest.

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

Yes, you will earn points for your finish position in league, probably B-tier equivalent.

How will league winners be decided? Is there a default on how the spreadsheet will track points, or will that be left to the club? Could a club set it up so that your best five rounds out of the league count towards final standings, for example?

Originally Posted by cgkdisc

At this point, league results will not be officially rated until the league is completed. So new league players or renewed veteran players will not be able to be props until the next league after the point their first league has been officially rated and they have a PDGA rating whether they can see it or not.

Will unofficial ratings be instantly computed when the spreadsheet is uploaded, as they currently are for tournaments? I think that the instant gratification of immediate unofficial ratings will be one of the main draws for the this whole league concept.

[cgkdisc]

@joegraham
It's a good question we'll have to ponder. The initial league program isn't intended for handicap leagues but won't necessarily exclude them either. Actual scores will have to be reported to the PDGA each week and at league end. Points will only be awarded based on your version of the final standings provided to the PDGA by the TD. Players will have to be listed as finishing in a division they qualify for. My first thought would be to simply rank every Pro player and every Am player, male and females together, into these two divisions simply for points calculations. That would work for now until we can come up with a better way to do it. If you wish to make the effort to break out players into their usual divisions simply for final standings and provide your report that way, that should also be okay.

[cgkdisc]

@gregorvn
League winners and final standings can be determined any way the League Director desires. The PDGA isn't involved with that. All the league director has to do is report actual scores thrown under PDGA scoring rules and Final Standings however the league decides to do them. Just like tournaments, the League Director will be able to upload scores to a new League area on the PDGA site and unofficial ratings will be calculated if you have at least 5 props who didn't "tank" that round.

[gregorvn]

Great, thanks for the quick reply. I like that we have options for how we want to do the league standings.

[ninafofitre]

Originally Posted by underparmike

Kevin & Chuck, these pDGA leagues are a great idea! Thanks for offering something other than tournament sanctioning. It is great to see the pDGA trying something new and relatively simple.

These leagues might be enough to get me to renew for 2012 in fact. I have three questions for the panel:

Question #1: Can league play begin anytime after daylight savings time begins at 2 a.m. on Sunday March 11?

Question #2: We have a lot of potential players who are past members of the pDGA but for various and usually justifiable reasons they won't pay the outrageous annual pDGA membership fee. Would these players who have a pDGA number and past rating count towards the 5 player minimum required to propagate?

Question #3: Our league directors are not pDGA current. Does the League Director have to be a current pDGA member?

Q #1: It's even OK to start at 12:01, 2 hour before dst actually kicks in

Q #2: Hopefully the Leagues will be popular so we can bring the PDGA membership prices down to the bare minimum of cost.

Q #3: It would help, how about I say it's highly recommended

[askmifo]

First, a splendid idea with PDGA supported leagues. So far the majority of our club members are positive!

There are of course a few things to sort out.

Q1: Payment has not yet been covered, how often should the club pay the fees? Once after each 12 week leauge, or every week? The reason is that for us in Sweden, the bank fee for a foreign money transfer is quite substantial, and with weekly payments the bank fees would be huge. ...or could we transfer the fees to our national federation, who then could summon all club league fees in one payment to the PDGA?

Q2: Our league rotates on three courses, for about 30 weeks in total. (April thru September). If I understand the previous posts right, we will then divide the league in three chronological parts, but can still play three courses in each league?

Q3: We actually have two leagues, one with handicap and one scratch league. Both are calculated from the same scores, we simply keep two tables with and without handicap. Since we have an application programmed that calculates points automatically for both leagues, there are no problems to keep that league system I guess? Simply, we do want rating updates, but we do not need some kind of league result.

Thanks,
/Mike
Malmö, Sweden

[cgkdisc]

Q1: No need to pay every week. Pay your total league fee at the end. It also makes sense for your National Federation to consolidate fees into one payment for all leagues.

Q2: Yes, you may play three different courses in a league. The PDGA leagues will be played during three 13 week periods with each league including from 6 to 12 league days.

Q3: No problem. Leagues may do their local scoring however they wish including handicaps as long as they submit scores for players thrown under PDGA rules for singles play.

[jconnell]

Originally Posted by Rollern

Some players tend to DNF bad rounds during tournaments to “rescue” the rating, these local leagues gives increased opportunities for those players to manipulate the rating in their own favor by using the DNF weapon.

Are there any plans on how to deal with possible DNF issues in these local leagues?

I would hope that the PDGA Competition Manual would still be in effect for PDGA-sanctioned leagues, in which case there is a very simple solution to the intentional DNF or tanking to preserve one's rating: DQ.

Section 3.3 Player Misconduct
A. The PDGA adopts a strict policy of appropriate behavior and comments to the media. Any conduct deemed to be unprofessional is subject to disqualification by the Tournament Director, and may also be subject to further disciplinary actions from the PDGA.

B. Players are expected to behave in a professional and sportsmanlike manner while participating in a PDGA sanctioned event. Actions that are in violation of this conduct include but are not limited to:
(13) Deliberately seeking to manipulate ones player rating through intentional misplay or withdrawal.

[cgkdisc]

The only exception to the PDGA Competition Manual for leagues I can think of at the moment is that alcohol is allowed during league play if the park allows alcohol.

[gregorvn]

Originally Posted by ninafofitre

The big question of course is what about beer? This rule has not been officially passed yet so this is why it's in red, but I am presenting the case that the PDGA alcohol rule for leagues be relaxed.
Alcohol rules will be based on local park or city/state laws for consumption of alcohol in the park

Can you imagine being in a Bowling, Billards, or Softball league without having a pop or two. Right now I'm guessing there will probably be a waiver situation that you sign, and the players will be responsible for their own behavior or actions.

Any word on if the board has addressed this issue? As much as I hate to say it, their decision has some effect on whether or not I will run a PDGA sanctioned league.

[cgkdisc]

It's official. If the park rules allow alcohol consumption, then it will be okay to consume during league if you're of legal age. No drinking while "driving" though...

[johnrock]

Any idea what responsibility the LD (league director) has if any player consumes too much alcohol during a sanctioned round and kills someone while driving away from the event? I know that seems pretty far-fetched but I've seen people get pretty wasted while playing weekly/monthly events. And if the pDGA says it's OK to consume alcohol while playing their sanctioned events, will they share any responsibility? Will it be the LD's responsibility to monitor all players and set limits for consumption?

[cgkdisc]

Although they might try to come after the LD and PDGA, the Park Dept is the entity that has the rule that allows alcohol consumption. The league wouldn't be doing anything to encourage nor discourage drinking although it might be helpful if the LD reminded players to keep it under control.

It would seem little different if the player played a rec round in the park, got drunk and drove having the accident or was just at the park sitting around drinking then drove off drunk. It's the park rule that's involved. TDs in all sanctioned events are under insurance coverage just by sanctioning. The optional $50 insurance fee is simply to pay the insurance company for the paperwork to include the Parks Dept or course owner under the policy.

[wsfaplau]

I think Chuck left out the part about while he may be correct it is never a bad idea to seek legal advice from your own local jurisdiction

[cgkdisc]

Making sure your event is legal based on local laws is always prudent. There are differences in various states and localities even though it seems like our formats are legal everywhere because we rarely hear about issues.