Mixing things up

JohnLambert · Aug 10 2009, 09:08 PM

We're considering following our tradition and mixing up divisions in our first round of our tournament. The difference is, this year our tournament is an A tier. It's been praised in the past, but we're trying to get some clarification before we decide for sure.

So can we mix our pro divisions (MPO, MPM, etc) up on our first round without having to be classified as X?

To clarify, hole assignments might include a Pro, a Master, a Grandmaster, and a Pro Female. We typically do this so people can play with people they don't normally play with, then everything returns to normal in the second round and third round.

Any input is appreciated.

NOHalfFastPull · Aug 10 2009, 09:35 PM

J L

Your motives are sound.
Playing with other pro divisions can make for an enjoyable round.

Hope you can pull it off.

steve timm

eupher61 · Aug 10 2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

804.06 Grouping and Sectioning

A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped together, and all players from different divisions shall be segregated from each other during play as much as practicable.

B. All players within a division should be randomly grouped for the first round and grouped by
cumulative score for each round thereafter.

thus, nope. But I do agree that it's a great idea.

bruce_brakel · Aug 10 2009, 11:38 PM

If you break that rule and run a good tournament, no one will complain much. Still, why break the rule? What do you gain that is more valuable than just following PDGA rules at a PDGA tournament?

Mark_Stephens · Aug 11 2009, 08:01 AM

Well....

It says should not be grouped together. It does not say shall not be grouped together.

To me that is two different things. If it were against the rules it would say "shall not". I think that "should not" is discouraging it but, not disallowing it.

krupicka · Aug 11 2009, 08:49 AM

The reason "should" is used is there are times where one has no choice. For example if you have a field of 5 in a division and are having threesomes on every hole. If you sent out one 5-some, the time between first card and last card in would be huge.

bruce_brakel · Aug 11 2009, 09:07 AM

The rule also uses the word "shall" which generally is mandatory and not permissive.

krupicka · Aug 11 2009, 09:25 AM

2007 Rules:
804.06 Grouping and Sectioning:
A. Professional and Amateur players
should not be grouped together, and all
players from different divisions shall be
segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.

2008 Competition Manual:
1.6. Grouping and Sectioning
A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped
together, and players competing in different divisions
should be segregated from each other during play as
much as practicable.

dinoroger · Aug 11 2009, 09:47 AM

I remember playing a tournament where I did not realize they mixed the first round groups. I a rec player was put in a group with 2 open and 1 adv player but did not know it. The first few holes I stayed up with the other players throwing pars and one birdie. Then one of the players threw a very awesome shot that I could not believe any rec player could do. I asked how long he had been playing and received the answer 12 years. Then asked why you are in rec. The entire group started to laugh and told me about the mixed 1st round. Well I felt better but my game went way down hill after that. Guess I wish I did not know and would have probably tried to keep up to the best of my ability. For me the mixed group was an awesome experience since I do not get to see many open players play due to shotgun start tournaments. It was a round I needed to show a rec player the potential of the game once you improve on technique and discipline.

davidsauls · Aug 11 2009, 10:09 AM

My first tournament was like this---many years ago---except as an etiquette-impaired beginner I annoyed an overly-serious Advanced player who was a real jerk to me all round. Quite an introduction to tournaments.

But this thread doesn't proposed complete mixing from Open to Novice---just the Pros. I'd ask for a waiver; I don't think it'd make it an XA-tier if granted. If not granted, well, then you've got a little soul-searching about your compliance with the sanctioning agreement.

RhynoBoy · Aug 11 2009, 10:37 AM

I bet you could get special permission from the PDGA by asking the Tour Manager or Mr. Graham without becoming an "X" tier event. Especially since it is the first round. Lots of tournaments have special rules requests and it seems that the PDGA can be quite supportive in many cases.

We do this a quite a few non-sanctioned tournaments, and even mix ams with pros. It is quite fun.

JohnLambert · Aug 12 2009, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhynoBoy

I bet you could get special permission from the PDGA by asking the Tour Manager or Mr. Graham without becoming an "X" tier event. Especially since it is the first round. Lots of tournaments have special rules requests and it seems that the PDGA can be quite supportive in many cases.

We do this a quite a few non-sanctioned tournaments, and even mix ams with pros. It is quite fun.

Yeah we've always done it for our non-sanctioned, and even did it at a few of our B tiers, but this year is our first A tier, and with a few extra people looking over our shoulder, I am just trying to cover our bases.

Thanks for all the input. I think I will request a waiver and see how that goes. Thanks again.

pterodactyl · Aug 12 2009, 11:19 AM

Personally, there are a few crybaby open players that I would rather not play a round of golf with.

Aug 10 2009, 09:08 PM	#1
JohnLambert PDGA Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Visalia, California Posts: 366	Mixing things up We're considering following our tradition and mixing up divisions in our first round of our tournament. The difference is, this year our tournament is an A tier. It's been praised in the past, but we're trying to get some clarification before we decide for sure. So can we mix our pro divisions (MPO, MPM, etc) up on our first round without having to be classified as X? To clarify, hole assignments might include a Pro, a Master, a Grandmaster, and a Pro Female. We typically do this so people can play with people they don't normally play with, then everything returns to normal in the second round and third round. Any input is appreciated.

Aug 10 2009, 11:38 PM	#4
bruce_brakel PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dying More Discs Posts: 5,571	If you break that rule and run a good tournament, no one will complain much. Still, why break the rule? What do you gain that is more valuable than just following PDGA rules at a PDGA tournament? __________________ Circuit court staff attorney - 25 years. My judge must retire. Looking for employment.

Aug 11 2009, 09:07 AM	#7
bruce_brakel PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Dying More Discs Posts: 5,571	The rule also uses the word "shall" which generally is mandatory and not permissive. __________________ Circuit court staff attorney - 25 years. My judge must retire. Looking for employment.

Aug 11 2009, 10:09 AM	#10
davidsauls PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Stoney Hill Disc Golf Course Posts: 1,904	My first tournament was like this---many years ago---except as an etiquette-impaired beginner I annoyed an overly-serious Advanced player who was a real jerk to me all round. Quite an introduction to tournaments. But this thread doesn't proposed complete mixing from Open to Novice---just the Pros. I'd ask for a waiver; I don't think it'd make it an XA-tier if granted. If not granted, well, then you've got a little soul-searching about your compliance with the sanctioning agreement. __________________ Visit us at Stoney Hill Disc Golf Course www.saulsinsurance.com/stoneyhill

Aug 12 2009, 11:19 AM	#13
pterodactyl PDGA Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Is everything Posts: 2,715	Not a good idea for an "A"-Tier Personally, there are a few crybaby open players that I would rather not play a round of golf with. __________________ Don't hate me because I'm www.TWISTEDflyer.com!

Aug 10 2009, 09:35 PM	#2
NOHalfFastPull PDGA Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: 2 M below sea level Posts: 246	J L Your motives are sound. Playing with other pro divisions can make for an enjoyable round. Hope you can pull it off. steve timm

Aug 11 2009, 08:01 AM	#5
Mark_Stephens PDGA Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Flint, MI Posts: 941	Well.... It says should not be grouped together. It does not say shall not be grouped together. To me that is two different things. If it were against the rules it would say "shall not". I think that "should not" is discouraging it but, not disallowing it.

Aug 11 2009, 08:49 AM	#6
krupicka PDGA Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 1,423	The reason "should" is used is there are times where one has no choice. For example if you have a field of 5 in a division and are having threesomes on every hole. If you sent out one 5-some, the time between first card and last card in would be huge.

Aug 11 2009, 09:25 AM	#8
krupicka PDGA Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 1,423	2007 Rules: 804.06 Grouping and Sectioning: A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped together, and all players from different divisions shall be segregated from each other during play as much as practicable. 2008 Competition Manual: 1.6. Grouping and Sectioning A. Professional and Amateur players should not be grouped together, and players competing in different divisions should be segregated from each other during play as much as practicable.

Aug 11 2009, 09:47 AM	#9
dinoroger PDGA Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: TX Posts: 87	I remember playing a tournament where I did not realize they mixed the first round groups. I a rec player was put in a group with 2 open and 1 adv player but did not know it. The first few holes I stayed up with the other players throwing pars and one birdie. Then one of the players threw a very awesome shot that I could not believe any rec player could do. I asked how long he had been playing and received the answer 12 years. Then asked why you are in rec. The entire group started to laugh and told me about the mixed 1st round. Well I felt better but my game went way down hill after that. Guess I wish I did not know and would have probably tried to keep up to the best of my ability. For me the mixed group was an awesome experience since I do not get to see many open players play due to shotgun start tournaments. It was a round I needed to show a rec player the potential of the game once you improve on technique and discipline.

Aug 11 2009, 10:37 AM	#11
RhynoBoy PDGA Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: The Sunflower State Posts: 519	I bet you could get special permission from the PDGA by asking the Tour Manager or Mr. Graham without becoming an "X" tier event. Especially since it is the first round. Lots of tournaments have special rules requests and it seems that the PDGA can be quite supportive in many cases. We do this a quite a few non-sanctioned tournaments, and even mix ams with pros. It is quite fun.

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