Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[davei]

No dx tl for now. The new dx has plusses and minuses. It is a little more durable, but harder to mold. We are probably going to a mix of the old and new next time.

Dave

Does durable = stiffer with this dx material?

[davei]

They are two separate things, but this material is generally a little stiffer.

dave, what is the best overstable mid range that innova makes?
--Chris

[primetime]

dave, what is the best overstable mid range that innova makes?
--Chris

The Gator is the best overstable mid-range disc from Innova.

(Too bad it doesn't come in Champion plastic or as a Fundraiser disc).

PT Woods
# 20431

[ChunkyleeChong]

Hey Dave,Do you remember what color stamps came on the first production run Blueberry CE valks and how many of these Blue discs were made?

i guess what i am really looking for is an overstable midrange that comes in champion plastic so i can rely on it for a long time. i am just tired of beating in KC rocks so quickly that i am buying new ones every other month.
any suggestions (that wont cost me $75)?
later
Chris

[dannyreeves]

Z-wasp

[eddie_ogburn]

i guess what i am really looking for is an overstable midrange that comes in champion plastic so i can rely on it for a long time.

Champ Shark

[dannyreeves]

Or you could wait for the new Champ. Rocs to come out.

[Schaff]

Champ Shark

I also like the champ shark, very predictable for me.

i have tried the shark but i have found that it flips with the amount of spin i put on it. but, kid-roc, i would be all about the z wasp since it pretty much is a CE Roc but i am trying to stick with innova.
if anyone else has ideas on a solid overstable midrange (by innova) or news if the gator might be made in champion plastic please let me know
later
Chris

when would the new champ rocs be coming out?

[jeterdawg]

I would look into two discs if you want to stick to Innova:

Candy Glow Roc (2004)...these are reasonable on eBay ($40-50 with shipping). I've been throwing mine for almost a year, and I use it at least every other hole for shots of 100-270 feet. It's very stable (to overstable) for me. If I release hyzer in the wind, it will go straight and fade back left (RHBH).

Candy (CFR) Viper...again, reasonable on eBay ($20-30 with shipping). This one is SUPER overstable...and it skips like a 5-year old girl...on Christmas...with a new puppy. I've been using mine for over a year and it still throws great. If I could just control a forehand with it...


Hope this helps.

Has someone already suggested a pro-line gremlin? It is basically a ce gator. A little thinner but just as stable.... I have a couple....

[davei]

Chris, I don't know what you mean by "best". We make several: Whippet, Viper, Gator, Bulldog. These are listed from most overstable to least.

[davei]

Chunkylee, no I don't remember the stamps and there weren't that many made. I would guess less than 1000.

[davei]

Chris, I would agree with the Champ Shark suggestion.

i have tried the shark but i have found that it flips with the amount of spin i put on it.

Dave, wouldn't it be technique rather than spin which is flipping the Shark?

Has someone already suggested a pro-line gremlin? It is basically a ce gator. A little thinner but just as stable.... I have a couple....

The only problem with suggesting a Proline Gremlin is that it (as well as the DX Gremlin) is no longer in production.

[davei]

robj, while it is true his technique may be flipping the Shark, it is him throwing it. In other words, if it doesn't work for him, why force it? I have had problems flipping certain models too, that's one reason why we have so many choices. Lots of different hands, with different grips, and different throwing styles.

[Schaff]

I heard that the champ stingray was going out of production. Is the sidewinder replacing it, or have sales been bad, or...?

[davei]

Schaff, it was more than it was really hard to manufacture. We had more rejects than good parts.

anybody know of any tournaments where candy glo rocs would be for sale?

Dave, I wasn't suggesting he shouldn't carry discs which fit his technique, rather i was trying to get you to weigh in on whether throwing with a lot of spin means you will automaticly flip anything but the most overstable discs over. In and of itself, I don't see having a lot of spin as something that will cause a disc to turn over.

robj, i dont know for sure if i am right and i am also unsure if what i am saying will make sense but here goes.
i did a physics project on the flight charecteristics of discs and this is what i found. for a RHBH throw the disc will be spinning clock wise moving forward. the air resistance will have a greater effect on the left side of the disc since the disc is spinning into the wind on that side of the disc. this is what creates the natural hyzer of a disc. however the faster the disc is spinning, gyroscopic inertia will want to carry the disc into the direction that it is spinning (to the right). so the more spin on a disc the the more it will want to turn over to the right. (all this is obviously in the reverse direction for lefty and sidearm throwers). this sounds logical to me but if anyone knows for sure that i am wrong please correct me because i would be interested in hearing other theories...
later
Chris

Thanks for sharing your take on it. What you say makes some sense, but I have also heard that a lot of spin will keep a disc holding whatever line you give it longer and that seems to me to be true. I used a lot of spin in Ultimate to get an understable disc to hold a hyzer. I've heard that a lot of spin creates a gyroscope like effect but I am not sure of the physics.

I have heard two schools of thought -- one that a lot of spin automaticly flips a disc and second that a lot of spin can keep even an understable disc from turning over. The thing is, other factors invariably factor in such as armspeed, disc speed, disc stability, nose angle, wrist roll, etc, etc.
I still shake my head though when I hear a player say he has too big an arm to throw an Orc without flipping it. The distance record was thrown by a guy throwing a less than max weight DX Valkyrie over 800 feet. I doubt many people have a 'bigger' arm than that...

all you really need to have "a big arm" is cheezy puffs, ice cream, and pizza. but to be able to throw far you need knowledge of angles, snap, velocity, and your plastic!
it seems to me that the more snap i put on my rocs when i throw them, the more hyzer i have to give them to keep them from flipping over and tuning right. for a while this was because my wrist was to limp in my release but even now that i have changed this i am still flipping my stable discs. we could argue about what snap does to a disc for weeks and still get no where (much less 800+ feet!). so lets just agree to disagree and say that im right and your wrong
just kidding
Chris

Spin does not cause a disc to turn over, it stablizes it. For a technical discussion of the physics, see, e.g., G. D. Stilley and D. L. Carstens, "Adaptation of Frisbee Flight Principle to Delivery of Special Ordnance," AIAA* Paper No. 72-982, 1972; J. R, Potts and W. J. Crowther, "The Aerodynamics of a Rotating Low-Aspect Disc-wing," Royal Aeronautical Society Aerodynamics Research Conference, April 2000; J. R. Potts and W. J. Crowther, "Frisbee™ Aerodynamics", AIAA Paper No. 2002-3150, 2002. (J. R. Potts is the founder/owner of Discwing.) See also, the extensive bibliography of works by Peter Lissaman on disc stability.

* AIAA = American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Thanks Felix. That sounds right to me. I'll bet back when Dave was setting a world record for distance the discs were pretty flippy and to throw far definitely required a great deal of spin (to stabilize them).