Ask Dave Dunipace About Innova Discs

[vwkeepontruckin]

Steven, if that s illusion is "way stiffer/harder" than your first run Valk, and if it has a similarly large rim, it has to be illegal. Maybe you should bring that to the attention of Jeff Homburg, who does the PDGA testing. He is who told me our original discs were borderline stiff.

The "S" Illusion was the the first plastic run for Illusions, and was the disc sent off for approval. AND, it was approved. So I'm guesing that thats not the case. I myself throw "S" Illusions and I can tell you that while they are stiff, they are perfectly fine and not very much stiffer if at all than old CE.

We are not withholding, if that is your premise.

You might as well just admit it. We all know you're witholding putting out CE discs so that the Illuminati can sell their backstock of the discs on ebay for insane prices to raise funds to fake another moon landing.

All kidding aside, I do have a real quesiton. I'm not sure if this is as much of an equipment question, but have you guys considered expanding your "About Us" link on the website? Stuff like employee profiles, virtual tours, how a disc is made is interesting to me, specifically information on how a disc is made. I'm talking more general information; no need to reveal any trade secrets. Following the life cycle of a disc from conception to mass production would be really cool. Sort of like what they do on "Unwrapped" on Food Network:

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show_cw

The PRS Guitars website is another good example:

http://www.prsguitars.com/inside/index.html

Thanks!

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.

If you're going to call Dave a liar in a public forum, you better be prepared to back it up. What is your evidence? Do you work for the PDGA? Were you involved in the testing? Do you supply them with raw plastic? If not, how much are you being paid and who is paying you and/or widiscgolf to slander Dave and Innova?

[Blarg]

robj:

I was just curious about what seemed to be the mystery behind CE plastic. All the long-time players rave about it. I don't use any CE discs, as I've only been playing for a year and all my discs are less than a year old.
Oh, not true! I did find a CE Eagle a year ago, but I've never used it. It was too heavy for me at the time.
Maybe I'll try it now that I can throw a bit harder!

[Dick]

there is no mystery about CE plastic. they used ot make discs from it, now they don't. discs are cheaper now, and just as durable. champ valk isn't as stable as a ce valk? go buy a champ viking. many pros don't throw ce stuff as it is too expensive to keep spares of.
can't we stop being disrespectful to dave and others on this thread, which is the outpouring of dave's commitment to the disc golfing community. ask question, get answer, don't like answer? go ask hawk or something....or maybe join in on the cam thread...

p.s this is directed at nobody in particular, just at the general feeling i am getting lately on this thread...nobody should take it personally!

[Dick]

Also, thanks Dave!!!!!

[widiscgolf]

There is no disrespecting going on here. We are just trying to get some straight answers. As far as top pros go there are allot of them that use Old CE. For starters Barry Schultz does. We have seen the majority of the top players use old Ce.

Were not trying to start a fight here. We are trying to help Dave out by expressing the need for old CE again. We can ask the majority of Innova throwers that have thrown Old CE or currently still throw Old CE and they will say there is nothing that compares to Old CE. That they wish they would make it again.

The demand is there. Why deny it.

Some of you guys know what we mean. We are not trying to argue here. We're just looking for answers.

Also trust me I am not disrespecting Dave. Every disc in my bag is from Innova. Dave thanks for making the best product. Some of you guys need to not assume so much. You know the saying........Don't assume, you make an ***** out of u and me.

PS: Here is the list of PDGA Approved Targets and Discs. Read through it all please.
PDGA Approved Targets & Discs PDF File

Then you can talk amongst yourselves.

[Schaff]

I was looking through approved discs and came across the Innova Apple. What kind of disc is this, and how'd it get it's name?

[widiscgolf]

Again I do appreciate the fast response Dave. Thanks again.

[williethekid]

I'm pretty sure an apple is an unweighter aviar

[davei]

Maybe we're having a communication problem. What exactly are the characteristics of the CE discs that you believe are so desireable? Stiffness, grip, flight characteristic, durability? We have produced recent runs of Champion TeeBirds that are at least as good as any previous CE plastic, IMO. By good, I mean, very durable, very true flight characteristic. replicable results, great grip, and not overly stiff. As far as I am concerned this stuff is better than any CE stuff we ever made. There will continue to be variations within each run and between runs for numerous reasons I have mentioned before including different material batches of the same material from the plastics supplier.

[Rodney Gilmore]

No the apple is a frisbee.I dont remember if its for ultimate, freestyle, or just for catch. But definitely not an unweighted aviar and probably not the best golf disc currently on the market.

[Rodney Gilmore]

The new champion stuff isn't bad. 3 of 4 of the drivers I carry are newer champion plastic (not CE). But that 4th is a FL. Kinda hard to get those in anything but CE. And getting so expensive that if I lose it I may have to sell family members to be able to afford a new one...

...come to think about it I do have a couple of cousins that are kinda a pain in the @$$. Any takers???

[widiscgolf]

Ok Dave. Can you introduce a line that is 100% like the 600 Champion Orcs you made; the ones that Brian S. uses. That is what players are looking for. The grippy, opaque, solid color stuff. This is not much to ask for, seeing old CE will not be made again.

Remember the white taffy old ce firebird FX's? If you do, make them like that. That is what the players loved. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere.

I do understand where you are coming from Dave. Just trying to help out.

Hey Dave,

I bought a Champion Aero recently to use for longer putts because I have trouble with long putts using my go-to putter (JK Aviar-x). The first putt I tried with it today was about a 50 footer and that baby went in The glide of the Aero seems to really help with that type of putt for me. Do you know of others who utilize that sort of two putter strategy (one for long, another for short) or do you think I just need to work on my technique to enable me to better fling those longer putts?

That is so not why, and you know that. Sounds like excuses.

We are just trying to get some straight answers.

Please explain, without equivocating or attempting to evade the issue, how it is that you are not accusing Dave of lying, because by stating you are trying to get some "straight answers," you are asserting that he is NOT telling the truth when he says that the plastic was changed in response to concerns over its stiffness.

[widiscgolf]

I just wanted to get some straight answers about the topic. Again I never once said Dave was not being honest. You put those words in my mouth. With the PDGA Approved Discs list and the multiple reasons we heard why CE is not being made; we were confused about the topic. That was all answered by Dave. I appreciated how fast he responded on the topic. I am not playing this quote game with you. I guess you have the time to. Who are you fore? Ok. Again thank you Dave for the answers to our questions.

If you read carefully, Dave never said that CE discs were not PDGA approved. If I am not mistaken, Dave was involved in the reasoning which created the rigidity regulations and therefore he is naturally responsive to ensuring they are met. If CE's were borderline I am guessing that wasn't good enough for Dave. Dave plays disc golf at a very high level and has been playing for a very long time so I am sure he is likewise responsive to what top players want. The success of Innova seems to be a strong endorsement of his decision making.

[mf100forever]

Yes and the Apple also have flight rings, like a Wham-O frisbee.

The PDGA Approved Discs list is dated 16th april 2003, is there no newer version????

The funny thing is, back in the old days when CE was in abundunce people (on this very board, mind you...) would ***** and complain about all the inconsistencies in CE plastic..."oh, why doesn't my 3rd run valk fly like my second run" or "oh, the last run was too slick and doesn't get good grip and now this run gets good grip but doesn't last as long", etc...And now that you can't get it any more everyone wants it back! I kinda feel sorry for Dave on this one, I bet he regrets ever making CE plastic and all the crap he's had to put up with ever since!

[gokayaksteven]

thanks for the reply dave. this disc does not say pdga approved. it is indeed harder/stiffer than early ce. i will investigate further... i agree the newer champ teebirds are right-on. thanks again

[gokayaksteven]

oh-yea--the disc is an illusion and has a much wider rim than a valk

The Gateway Blaze is 10x harder than any other piece of Iron I've ever felt and it has been PDGA approved for a while.

Anyways, the bottom line is that CE is not coming back. Get used to the new Champion or throw something else. Discs and plastics change...just adapt. If you are so dependent on a certain disc or plastic that you couldn't play without it, the equipment isn't the problem, IT'S YOU!

[hawkgammon]

Dave,

What plastic are the 20th Anniversary Aviars made out of? I believe I recall you saying they were the putter mold with a big bead in the champion plastic, but it feels more like the new pro plastic to me.

Thanks.

[prairie_dawg]

Way too stiff for the new pro plastic

[Blarg]

When are the new graphite Orcs coming out?

[davei]

Hawk, the Anniversary Champion Aviar, and the other new Champion Aviars are made out of a blend that produces very little bounce when it rebounds. That was necessary to keep it from bouncing out or off of the target. The first run of Champion putters were too bouncey. Pro plastic is opaque. The opacity of the Aniversery Aviars is due to the color. That type color is usually used in the pro plastic.

[davei]

This is the last time I will be able to be on line for a week. I am leaving for Japan in an hour. Thanks. If I am able to get on line in Japan, I will, but I don't anticipate it.

[widiscgolf]

Have fun at the Japan Open Dave! Good Luck! I was happy to help support the tournament.

[widiscgolf]

Since Barry won another World Championship will he be getting another signature disc? If so will it be the Champion Orc?